There is a world somewhere between reality and fiction. Although ignored by many, it is very real and so are those living in it. This forum is about the natural world. Here, wild animals will be heard and respected. The forum offers a glimpse into an unknown world as well as a room with a view on the present and the future. Anyone able to speak on behalf of those living in the emerald forest and the deep blue sea is invited to join.
I just ordered Clyde Beatty "facing big cats"
and Charly Baumann "Tiger, Tiger, 25 years with the big cats"
I will review them once I receive them and read them.
A side note, I'd love recommendations of any books read by some here on mixed acts, especially, Lion, Tiger and Bear mixed acts.
But any recommendations are appreciated.
Again, I don't trust any of these animal trainers, no matter what animal they support. Most are quite contradicting in their views. Beatty favored the lion in public, but privately, he had several of his lions killed by tigers. Louis Roth stated that he never had a tiger lose to a lion, but lo and behold, one of the heavy-side lions killed a big tiger in a fight to the death. I think they base their opinions off the animals in what they see instead of the wild. True, some of them might get some of their animals straight from the wild, but whose not to say that some of those trainers immediately got killed or mistreated the animal according to the animal's way of life. In my opinion, the animal trainers' observations come from their resulting actions on the animals and the animals' respective responses to the trainers' actions. For instance, Beatty is well known to have let multiple lions out at once to attack a sick, small, or already injured tiger. This resulted in him calling lions "socially sophisticated" and well-versed into supporting each other, when in fact, tigers in the wild have been known to do the same to prey items. The observations of animal trainers and those of wildlife enthusiasts are very different, you know.
I believe also that a great many of those "accidental" fights were actually pre-planned events with some heavy betting on the outcome. We could fill pages with such articles but that could only lower the standards of this site.
(01-28-2016, 11:42 PM)brotherbear Wrote: I believe also that a great many of those "accidental" fights were actually pre-planned events with some heavy betting on the outcome. We could fill pages with such articles but that could only lower the standards of this site.
You are certainly right, and I had emotionally reacted when I saw this "trainer" pawing the young tiger's face, my apologies...
And quite agre with you, I, unfortunately, think that we could fill pages with such articles, as you said it. Some men make the animals sick, and lot of men are sick.
My only goal is to learn from people who have first hand account with these animals. Of course trainers have different preferences and outcomes but that doesn't mean that there isn't good knowledge to gain from them.
(01-29-2016, 12:52 AM)Pckts Wrote: My only goal is to learn from people who have first hand account with these animals. Of course trainers have different preferences and outcomes but that doesn't mean that there isn't good knowledge to gain from them.
I can agree to specific generalizations towards an individual animal (Caesar the lion, Bobby the tiger), but I can't agree with the generalizations towards the whole species, each animal trainer has only acquired a few big cats/bears out of the whole wild population. There is good knowledge to learn about an individual animal from a trainer, but there is plenty of generalized knowledge about a whole species to learn from a wildlife enthusiast. One can rarely replace the other.
Of course, that's why I like to have as much info as possible so we can use it to try and find some common ground or extreme examples. Both are interesting to read about
(01-29-2016, 01:07 AM)Pckts Wrote: Of course, that's why I like to have as much info as possible so we can use it to try and find some common ground or extreme examples. Both are interesting to read about
But the problem is that you can't find common ground between Beatty's treatment of his tigers and Roth's treatment of his tigers, or even any other trainer's treatment of their tigers: Beatty treated his tigers in a negative way often berating them with force or a group of lions, yet Roth treated his tigers with more respect and rarely allows his big cats to attack one another without reason. As a result, Beatty's tigers were often aggressive and killed the lions, and Roth's tigers were composed, even when placed with the lions. The reactions of the animals depend on the trainer, and no two trainers perform the same way because people need something new to look at, and trainers need funding from their audience, of course.
Roth trained Beatty, nelson and stark, Beatty learned his craft from him.
Reading about these guys gives you a history of the animals they particularly worked with. You find out where they came from, sub species behavior and specific reactions to different events.
01-30-2016, 09:42 AM( This post was last modified: 01-30-2016, 09:46 AM by Polar )
(01-29-2016, 06:19 AM)Pckts Wrote: Roth trained Beatty, nelson and stark, Beatty learned his craft from him.
Reading about these guys gives you a history of the animals they particularly worked with. You find out where they came from, sub species behavior and specific reactions to different events.
First statement is true, but Beatty only applied Roth's "skillful" training towards his publicly-biased perception of his lions, not his tigers. Can't really tell sub-species behavior when every animal is treated differently according to the trainer's perception of the animal, specific reactions (by individual), then yes. History of their training and the animals they worked with? Yes, I agree as well. But no smart wildlife enthusiast really learns his/her animal facts from a trainer, he/she learns them straight from the wild, where these animals aren't subjected to the stereotypes and denominations of any trainer, yet instead to unknown, random, and subsequent events.
Absolutely, the Wild is where the true nature of the beast is shown.
Big cat trainers just interest me and their stories help me get a clearer idea of what these cats are capable of.
(01-30-2016, 10:12 AM)Pckts Wrote: Absolutely, the Wild is where the true nature of the beast is shown.
Big cat trainers just interest me and their stories help me get a clearer idea of what these cats are capable of.
I agree wholeheartedly that animal trainers can acquire a great deal of knowledge about the animals they work with and can compare them species to species. This is a good thing. What we don't need ( imo ) is to get back into the topic of animal vs animal regarding captive predators. What takes place in the wild on the other hand is worth mention.
