There is a world somewhere between reality and fiction. Although ignored by many, it is very real and so are those living in it. This forum is about the natural world. Here, wild animals will be heard and respected. The forum offers a glimpse into an unknown world as well as a room with a view on the present and the future. Anyone able to speak on behalf of those living in the emerald forest and the deep blue sea is invited to join.
10-09-2022, 09:35 PM( This post was last modified: 10-09-2022, 09:40 PM by Charger01 )
Wanted to address some points.
1. The vet who performed the PM(and wished to not be named or asked more questions)confirmed that he weighed waghdoh's carcass on a scale and that some kgs of undigested food was recovered from the stomach. We asked him if he was weighed on a scale to which his response was "yes". I cannot give more information that this here, although I may be willing to, for some people in dms.
2. The post mortem report said he was fat. That is almost always the case when comparing young/prime animals to old animals. Older animals loose muscle mass and proportionally have more fat. Waghdoh was an exception as in he stayed the same for most of his life but that doesn't mean that effects of old age wouldn't creep up on him.
3. The dead body of the man was found on 21 May. It is unknown how old it was. Waghdoh's dead body was found on 23 May. The innards were already under active decay (which leads to reduction in mass) by the time they found him. So it is totally possible that waghdoh died before the man was killed in a tiger attack.
10-09-2022, 09:39 PM( This post was last modified: 10-10-2022, 07:34 AM by LonePredator )
(10-09-2022, 09:22 PM)Pantherinae Wrote:
(10-09-2022, 09:13 PM)LonePredator Wrote:
(10-09-2022, 09:08 PM)Pantherinae Wrote:
(10-09-2022, 07:49 PM)Pckts Wrote:
(10-09-2022, 06:43 PM)GreenForest Wrote: The T24's picture posted by @LonePredator was from his last capture. The one posted by @Pckts was from one of his previous capture. Just FYI.
As for Wagdoh, "For the last 15 days, the old tiger was found moving sluggishly and had virtually given up on life." (http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/artic...751857.cms) Most likely wagdoh didn't eat much in last few days of his death. If at all we have to subtract food content, then it will be 10-15kg. Nothing more. 255-260kg empty weight will put wagdoh as heaviest old aged wild bigcat in scientific records.
Time stamps from the captures showing different dates?
Or source?
Both have the same stretcher.
Wagdoh became a cattle killer after being dispatched for a few years before death and most likely was killing them prior as well.
He also was said to have killed a person recently before
His death.
*This image is copyright of its original author
Great info Pckts, really makes you wonder about cattle killers. Just like the Kenyan 272 kg male lion that had a smaller frame, Wagdoh could have a lot of fat on him. Which makes way more sense when you look at Wagdoh’s measurments imo.
Knock said the lion appared fit like a wild lion, nothing like a zoo animal, but later it was said the lion was full of fat… Wagdoh also looked fine, but probably had decent amount of fat.
208cm HBL in straight line is very large. It’s not small by any means.
Do we know if it was taken in a straight line? If he was bloated and it was taken over the curves it could have been highly exaggerated.
Yes his HB length is fine, but I’m still puzzled by the weight looking at his height and chest measurments.
Because 208cm in straight line matches very well with his weight. And like I have already said ten times before in this discussion, chest girth does not correlate with weight as well as bodylength does and shoulder height barely causes any difference.
Tigerluver presented a regression which also showed that chest girth has low correlation with weight compared to bodylength (which has the best correlation)
Bodylength is the primary factor for high weight. Chest girth is secondary and shoulder height is insignificant.
(10-09-2022, 06:43 PM)GreenForest Wrote: The T24's picture posted by @LonePredator was from his last capture. The one posted by @Pckts was from one of his previous capture. Just FYI.
As for Wagdoh, "For the last 15 days, the old tiger was found moving sluggishly and had virtually given up on life." (http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/artic...751857.cms) Most likely wagdoh didn't eat much in last few days of his death. If at all we have to subtract food content, then it will be 10-15kg. Nothing more. 255-260kg empty weight will put wagdoh as heaviest old aged wild bigcat in scientific records.
Time stamps from the captures showing different dates?
Or source?
Both have the same stretcher.
Wagdoh became a cattle killer after being dispatched for a few years before death and most likely was killing them prior as well.
He also was said to have killed a person recently before
His death.
*This image is copyright of its original author
Great info Pckts, really makes you wonder about cattle killers. Just like the Kenyan 272 kg male lion that had a smaller frame, Wagdoh could have a lot of fat on him. Which makes way more sense when you look at Wagdoh’s measurments imo.
Knock said the lion appared fit like a wild lion, nothing like a zoo animal, but later it was said the lion was full of fat… Wagdoh also looked fine, but probably had decent amount of fat.
208cm HBL in straight line is very large. It’s not small by any means.
Do we know if it was taken in a straight line? If he was bloated and it was taken over the curves it could have been highly exaggerated.
Yes his HB length is fine, but I’m still puzzled by the weight looking at his height and chest measurments.
Because 208cm in straight line matches very well with his weight. And like I have already said ten times before in this discussion, chest girth does not correlate with weight as well as bodylength does and shoulder height barely causes any difference.
Tigerluver presented a regression which also suggested that chest girth has low correlation with weight compared to bodylength.
Bodylength is the primary factor for high weight. Chest girth is secondary and shoulder height is insignificant.
You’re talking about the most minuscule of differences. Length doesn’t always correlate best to weight and neither does chest. It depends on the cat.
Hence the fact that I showed you two cats with the same chest girth while the shorter one weighed more than the longer one.
Measured by the same person
There’s no magic bullet
All factors need to be accounted for on a case by case basis.
(10-09-2022, 09:35 PM)Khan85 Wrote: Wanted to address some points.
1. The vet who performed the PM(and wished to not be named or asked more questions)confirmed that he weighed waghdoh's carcass on a scale and that some kgs of undigested food was recovered from the stomach. We asked him if he was weighed on a scale to which his response was "yes". I cannot give more information that this here, although I may be willing to, for some people in dms.
2. The post mortem report said he was fat. That is almost always the case when comparing young/prime animals to old animals. Older animals loose muscle mass and proportionally have more fat. Waghdoh was an exception as in he stayed the same for most of his life but that doesn't mean that effects of old age wouldn't creep up on him.
3. The dead body of the man was found on 21 May. It is unknown how old it was. Waghdoh's dead body was found on 23 May. The innards were already under active decay (which leads to reduction in mass) by the time they found him. So it is totally possible that waghdoh died before the man was killed in a tiger attack.
But unfortunately he didn’t go into detail nor supply any follow up information. He also didn’t mention if the weight was relayed to him or if he was part of the weighing first hand. Lastly like I showed, if following PM protocols, body parts would be severed and weighed separately. So if Deteriorated they can make estimates on certain portions.
I tried to respond to your PM but the mailbox is full.
10-09-2022, 10:13 PM( This post was last modified: 10-09-2022, 10:14 PM by LonePredator )
@Pckts Nothing will convince you now. All the information is right in front of your eyes yet you refuse to accept it just because of your ego.
This information disproves your previous claims of Tadoba Tigers being very small and this is why you refuse to accept it. Keep in mind that if you keep behaving like this then no one will take anything you say seriously.
“The expert was lying”, “The document is wrong“, “The weight is fake”, “Wagdoh was fat”, “The length is taken over curves”, “Wagdoh had a full stomach”, “Putrefaction increased weight by 20kg”
You will keep making such kinds of excuses over and over again so there is no point in saying anything to you. I’m done explaining.
(10-09-2022, 09:35 PM)Khan85 Wrote: Wanted to address some points.
1. The vet who performed the PM(and wished to not be named or asked more questions)confirmed that he weighed waghdoh's carcass on a scale and that some kgs of undigested food was recovered from the stomach. We asked him if he was weighed on a scale to which his response was "yes". I cannot give more information that this here, although I may be willing to, for some people in dms.
2. The post mortem report said he was fat. That is almost always the case when comparing young/prime animals to old animals. Older animals loose muscle mass and proportionally have more fat. Waghdoh was an exception as in he stayed the same for most of his life but that doesn't mean that effects of old age wouldn't creep up on him.
3. The dead body of the man was found on 21 May. It is unknown how old it was. Waghdoh's dead body was found on 23 May. The innards were already under active decay (which leads to reduction in mass) by the time they found him. So it is totally possible that waghdoh died before the man was killed in a tiger attack.
bro get the PM report of giant sunderkhal maneater of corbett ......
(10-09-2022, 10:13 PM)LonePredator Wrote: @Pckts Nothing will convince you now. All the information is right in front of your eyes yet you refuse to accept it just because of your ego.
This information disproves your previous claims of Tadoba Tigers being very small and this is why you refuse to accept it. Keep in mind that if you keep behaving like this then no one will take anything you say seriously.
“The expert was lying”, “The document is wrong“, “The weight is fake”, “Wagdoh was fat”, “The length is taken over curves”, “Wagdoh had a full stomach”, “Putrefaction increased weight by 20kg”
You will keep making such kinds of excuses over and over again so there is no point in saying anything to you. I’m done explaining.
You’re just spewing nonsense at this point. The only one making excuses is you. Your stubbornness or just lack of comprehension on the topic shines through which is why you resort to attacks and falsehoods.
So instead, read what is written by me and don’t get defensive which resorts you to make up claims or assumptions you claim to be mine which aren’t true.
Every single quotation you wrote wasn’t written by me, so try again.
Facts are facts, measurements I presented are valid while you twist and turn.
10-10-2022, 12:35 AM( This post was last modified: 10-10-2022, 12:36 AM by Roflcopters )
(10-09-2022, 07:10 PM)Jerricson Wrote: @Roflcopters : "also where is the proof of Sub-Adult Bheema weighing 225kg as a sub adult, how much food content did he have?"
You know even I had the same exact query in my mind. Not just regarding Bheema , but Banda and Konda as well. As far as I know , only Punchkatta's weight was verified. I'm quite new to this whole weight debate but back in the days , you guys were collecting a lot of info on the weight of Indian tigers . So , does anyone here know who was the vet/field biologist in charge for the capture of all those Kanha males (specifically Konda and Banda) ? Because I can only see Min Ha confirmed their weights but I'm not sure if he was actually involved in the capture of these specimens . If anyone knows more about the capture details of Banda and Konda , please enlighten.
most of the Kanha weights advertised are just word of mouth, a whole bunch of what this *researcher said* or what this*Wildlife Institute of India scientist told me*. this debate has never moved past the point of Vijay Rajan and Minh Ha’s statements. proceed with extreme caution when taking any of these weights into consideration. it’s been close to almost 10 years and i have yet to see concrete evidence of any of these claims.
(10-09-2022, 07:10 PM)Jerricson Wrote: @Roflcopters : "also where is the proof of Sub-Adult Bheema weighing 225kg as a sub adult, how much food content did he have?"
You know even I had the same exact query in my mind. Not just regarding Bheema , but Banda and Konda as well. As far as I know , only Punchkatta's weight was verified. I'm quite new to this whole weight debate but back in the days , you guys were collecting a lot of info on the weight of Indian tigers . So , does anyone here know who was the vet/field biologist in charge for the capture of all those Kanha males (specifically Konda and Banda) ? Because I can only see Min Ha confirmed their weights but I'm not sure if he was actually involved in the capture of these specimens . If anyone knows more about the capture details of Banda and Konda , please enlighten.
most of the Kanha weights advertised are just word of mouth, a whole bunch of what this *researcher said* or what this*Wildlife Institute of India scientist told me*. this debate has never moved past the point of Vijay Rajan and Minh Ha’s statements. proceed with extreme caution when taking any of these weights into consideration. it’s been close to almost 10 years and i have yet to see concrete evidence of any of these claims.
You have Dr. Jhala and
*This image is copyright of its original author
You also have Kankatta quoted in literature as well.
“Proceeded with caution” has more to do with your animosity towards Vijay since you were his reason for leaving WF.
No offense, but he’s far more reliable thank just some fly by night quote.
Quote:Proceeded with caution” has more to do with your animosity towards Vijay since you were his reason for leaving WF.
wait what? why wasn’t i aware of this. what animosity are you talking about? i don’t even know him like that and never did. i only knew Minh Ha/Asianbuffalo and everyone around me disliked the guy for obvious reasons.
Quote:No offense, but he’s far more reliable thank just some fly by night quote.
get off the Kanha bandwagon and provide actual proof. stop running around in circles and mentioning names to avoid the real issue. in the end, it’s all about transparency and with the exception of maybe Poochkanta. all those other weights are questionable.
Quote:Proceeded with caution” has more to do with your animosity towards Vijay since you were his reason for leaving WF.
wait what? why wasn’t i aware of this. what animosity are you talking about? i don’t even know him like that and never did. i only knew Minh Ha/Asianbuffalo and everyone around me disliked the guy for obvious reasons.
Quote:No offense, but he’s far more reliable thank just some fly by night quote.
get off the Kanha bandwagon and provide actual proof. stop running around in circles and mentioning names to avoid the real issue. in the end, it’s all about transparency and with the exception of maybe Poochkanta. all those other weights are questionable.
bedi brothers had filmed poochkatta , they also call poochkatta as banda .
there were two banda’s, the poochkatta male was the original Banda and Link 7 female’s son was the other Banda who apparently was the father of T2/Karai Ghati and Yuvraj/Dhamangaon male is from the same clan.
10-10-2022, 09:15 AM( This post was last modified: 10-10-2022, 09:16 AM by Jerricson )
(10-10-2022, 12:35 AM)Roflcopters Wrote:
(10-09-2022, 07:10 PM)Jerricson Wrote: @Roflcopters : "also where is the proof of Sub-Adult Bheema weighing 225kg as a sub adult, how much food content did he have?"
You know even I had the same exact query in my mind. Not just regarding Bheema , but Banda and Konda as well. As far as I know , only Punchkatta's weight was verified. I'm quite new to this whole weight debate but back in the days , you guys were collecting a lot of info on the weight of Indian tigers . So , does anyone here know who was the vet/field biologist in charge for the capture of all those Kanha males (specifically Konda and Banda) ? Because I can only see Min Ha confirmed their weights but I'm not sure if he was actually involved in the capture of these specimens . If anyone knows more about the capture details of Banda and Konda , please enlighten.
most of the Kanha weights advertised are just word of mouth, a whole bunch of what this *researcher said* or what this*Wildlife Institute of India scientist told me*. this debate has never moved past the point of Vijay Rajan and Minh Ha’s statements. proceed with extreme caution when taking any of these weights into consideration. it’s been close to almost 10 years and i have yet to see concrete evidence of any of these claims.
I have one of the vets who treated Bheema on Whatsapp. So I'll try to confirm Bheema's weight with him. I think that'll avoid a lot of confusion here. He's been working in a Central Indian TR for more than 20 years and also has datasheets regarding weights of specimens captured in some of the TRs in the Central Indian terrain. So far , he's shared me the Panna datasheet , but the PTR authorities have already released that data earlier this year . So I've asked him to share information on weights of specimens captured in any of the other TRs and he told me he will share it later. Lets hope for the best alright.
Quote:Proceeded with caution” has more to do with your animosity towards Vijay since you were his reason for leaving WF.
wait what? why wasn’t i aware of this. what animosity are you talking about? i don’t even know him like that and never did. i only knew Minh Ha/Asianbuffalo and everyone around me disliked the guy for obvious reasons.
Quote:No offense, but he’s far more reliable thank just some fly by night quote.
get off the Kanha bandwagon and provide actual proof. stop running around in circles and mentioning names to avoid the real issue. in the end, it’s all about transparency and with the exception of maybe Poochkanta. all those other weights are questionable.
"bandwagon"
You've been a tadoba fan boy for years, trying to discredit everyone presenting actual facts.
Back to the topic.
What happened Copters, you're going against your own words now?
*This image is copyright of its original author
And in regards to Vijay leaving because of you, here you go.
Post #141
"While I agree with Pckts on most of his views, I condemn the distorted views expressed by the supposedly resident expert here, Roflcopters.
Sorry Sanjay, I'm leaving this forum for good. All the best on your wildphoto venture where I'll continue to contribute as long as you keep that forum inviolate from such troubled souls. https://wildfact.com/forum/topic-overrat...15#pid5515
He was stated to be 213cm HBL, most likely over the curves but unspecified with a short tail.
and here is Vijay discussing his sources
*This image is copyright of its original author
Again, it's a reach trying to question his but to each their own.
Lastly, you mentioned a Tadoba Male at 197kg, do you know his measurements?
He was 287cm with a 187cm HBL.
Here is a comp I made of KF at the bottom, Baghin Nala sub adult in the middle and Wagdoh at the top.
Do any of you really think Wagdoh looks larger than either shown?
All are bloated so that shouldn't factor.
Modern weights and measurements on wild tigers
