There is a world somewhere between reality and fiction. Although ignored by many, it is very real and so are those living in it. This forum is about the natural world. Here, wild animals will be heard and respected. The forum offers a glimpse into an unknown world as well as a room with a view on the present and the future. Anyone able to speak on behalf of those living in the emerald forest and the deep blue sea is invited to join.
Quote:In regards to Tadoba having smaller Tigers there’s no debate. This is factual, you have multiple researchers and hunters discussing this, guides who’ve seen both and modern day weights and measurements. Wagdoh is a big cat, no doubt and Tigers can get big no matter the location but it’s not with the same frequency nor the same body composition. And it’s not just the males but the females as well, Tadoba females are notoriously small, especially compared to their Sal Forest cousins.
I think Tadoba has a large variation of big cats in all sizes, some of the females are small while some are large sized. same with males. a lot of it has to do with traffic and corridors. prey density is really good in some areas while certain parts of buffer areas lack behind in overall prey numbers. i think generalizing how a tiger appears based on food availability is subjective. genetics play a big part in a tiger’s overall appearance, rest of the argument depends on a tiger’s ability to hunt and sourcing their food options. generally speaking Kanha should have bigger tigers based on environmental factor but i’d be willing to bet that Shiva, Wagdoh, Bajrang, Khali, Kitadi male/Coal mine male, Mowgli, Dadiyal, V7 and Narasimha and countless others could top most Kanha tigers. judging a whole population based on 185kg battle season Gabbar, 197kg sick male, 270kg Wagdoh and 85k Choti Tara isn’t even a real sample size considering Tadoba’s overall population. if anything, Wagdoh’s post mortem report makes me think otherwise. I could’ve been misjudging their sizes all this time and I’m sure few others feel the same way. less than 2 year old Chota Matka weighed 162kg and his brother Tarachand (now deceased) weighed 173kg. CM is probably walking around 200kg+ at 6 years of age with the second biggest territory after Bajrang.
Quote:It’s pretty simple, Cooler temps, more rain and hilly terrain will produce larger cats assuming all prey density is equal. More prey and / or larger prey will add into that. This is why I think it’s safe to assume Kaziranga Tigers should be the largest alive today.
genetics play a much bigger role than anything you mentioned. Kaziranga tigers are all just opinion of people and nothing more. concrete evidence must be provided for all these baseless claims of Kaziranga having the biggest tigers. also last time i checked, Dudhwa has very dense forests. perfect for hunting so they are definitely not lacking behind by much and Siddharth Singh once told me that old thunder male also known as Ring Road male or Kishanpur male was the biggest tiger he ever saw in India.
*This image is copyright of its original author
I don’t see much difference between all the ruling males of Dudhwa and Kaziranga in the present day.
Charger Old thunder male Bhavani male Bankati male Sathiana male New thunder male Sathiana male x2
vs
KZT023 Kazi 14 Kazi 59
KZT085
Burapahar male
headshot male
Kazi 54
can you really say the Kaziranga tigers mentioned above stand out? Dudhwa’s top 7 are easily topping Kaziranga’s top 7 imo.
young male from Kaziranga
vs
Charger
how are people seeing things differently still? where are these big skulls from Kaziranga that Dudhwa can’t top.
Wagdohs weight aside which hasn’t been verified. The person involved is unnamed as well as the protocol used or if he was even weighed during the Post mortem which would be done by cutting him to pieces according to the protocols shown or on weighing on site. But regardless, no other Tiger from Tadoba has surpassed 200kg meanwhile Tigers in Kanha surpass 225kg at sub adult ages and the largest weight on record comes from Kanha as well.
You mentioned Gabbar at 185kg and we have seen him fighting Saturn and Katezari, all three are similar sized while you have MV2 at 195kgs fighting Umarpani and he’s completely dwarfed. That’s a big difference. And as we’ve seen, Umarpani is a huge male but he’s by no means the biggest and he is said to be as large if not larger than Wagdoh while Wagdoh is the undisputed king of Tadoba. It shows the amount of big males that are in Kanha.
Next is Terai (Dudhwa in particular) v Kaziranga
Aside from the major difference of the amount large prey available in Kaziranga and not so in Dudhwa we have weights and measurements from Terai and Assam. Both are similar but Kaziranga is a unique habitat much like the Crater. There’s absolutely no reason any Tiger should outsize them.
What Tiger habitat is better suited to produce large cats?
And last is the eye witnesses, while few, there are some with good resumes and they say the same, Kaziranga Tigers are larger than their Terai counterparts. But like all places Tigers inhabit, you’ll have overlap. It’s just the amount of big Tigers that are there.
So in closing, Kanha is larger than Tadoba, cooler than Tadoba and has more tigers than Tadoba with better prey density. I don’t see why Tadoba would have as large of cats.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4MsNA8GofLA wagdoh may have had 20-25 kg of content in his 270kg weight . his stomach does look here having content in it . in his prime wagdoh was a beast 270-280kg empty male . that could be the case i guess .
His stomach looks almost flat. 20-25kg content too much. Even baited Tiger rarely have 25kg of stomach content. 20-25kg of stomach content would mean a full or almost full stomach.
When a Tiger has 20-25kg of stomach content, it's stomach will look visibly full and bloated while Wagdoh's stomach looks almost flat from the side.
Wagdoh probably had under 5kg of stomach content.
This is what a Tiger with 20kg of stomach content should look like:
*This image is copyright of its original author
Big cats can consume 30kg plus and Wagdohs stomach certainly wasn’t flat.
*This image is copyright of its original author
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At this point he’d been sustaining himself on Cattle and as you can see it’s a mix of stomach content and bloating as quoted during the PM report.
Also the Tiger you posted certainly wasn’t full
*This image is copyright of its original author
He was rolled and his stomach was pushed towards the top. Certainly not empty either but that’s the difference between bloating and not. When alive their bodies shift and move more like elastic but when putrefaction sets in they bloat and stiffen.
Wagdoh had a big belly naturally which gave the impression that he was gorged most of the time but it just had to do with his overall appearance. I remember T2/Karai Ghati male and KF also had big bellies compared to most other males in Kanha.
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
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*This image is copyright of its original author
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in this picture, Wagdoh was 15-16 years old. might have been slightly gorged but it’s hard to tell with Wagdoh.
Wagdoh had a big belly naturally which gave the impression that he was gorged most of the time but it just had to do with his overall appearance. I remember T2/Karai Ghati male and KF also had big bellies compared to most other males in Kanha.
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
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in this picture, Wagdoh was 15-16 years old. might have been slightly gorged but it’s hard to tell with Wagdoh.
He definitely could bulk up but he also got empty like others.
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
And generally speaking, a “soft” appearance when wild can be an indicator of cattle predation. It’s not always the case but it’s definitely something noticeable if you look for it.
The T24's picture posted by @LonePredator was from his last capture. The one posted by @Pckts was from one of his previous capture. Just FYI.
As for Wagdoh, "For the last 15 days, the old tiger was found moving sluggishly and had virtually given up on life." (http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/artic...751857.cms) Most likely wagdoh didn't eat much in last few days of his death. If at all we have to subtract food content, then it will be 10-15kg. Nothing more. 255-260kg empty weight will put wagdoh as heaviest old aged wild bigcat in scientific records.
10-09-2022, 07:02 PM( This post was last modified: 10-09-2022, 08:04 PM by LonePredator )
(10-09-2022, 06:43 PM)GreenForest Wrote: The T24's picture posted by @LonePredator was from his last capture. The one posted by @Pckts was from one of his previous capture. Just FYI.
As for Wagdoh, "For the last 15 days, the old tiger was found moving sluggishly and had virtually given up on life." (http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/artic...751857.cms) Most likely wagdoh didn't eat much in last few days of his death. If at all we have to subtract food content, then it will be 10-15kg. Nothing more. 255-260kg empty weight will put wagdoh as heaviest old aged wild bigcat in scientific records.
Yes, I had my suspicions. Thanks for the confirmation. So that picture of T-24 is indeed what a Tiger with 20-25kg of stomach content should look like. In comparison to that, Wagdoh's stomach content looks miniscule.
Also, the putrefaction is his body is also responsible for making him look bloated. Keep in mind that usually the stomach puffs up more than other parts of the body during the swelling in the putrefaction process. I could post some pictures of this phenomenon but those pictures can be very disturbing to some users so I choose not to.
Also, it sounds a bit unlikely that a Tiger would be in good enough condition to hunt and eat a big meal just a day or two before it's death.
My opinion is that Wagdoh probably had less than 5kg of stomach content.
@Roflcopters : "also where is the proof of Sub-Adult Bheema weighing 225kg as a sub adult, how much food content did he have?"
You know even I had the same exact query in my mind. Not just regarding Bheema , but Banda and Konda as well. As far as I know , only Punchkatta's weight was verified. I'm quite new to this whole weight debate but back in the days , you guys were collecting a lot of info on the weight of Indian tigers . So , does anyone here know who was the vet/field biologist in charge for the capture of all those Kanha males (specifically Konda and Banda) ? Because I can only see Min Ha confirmed their weights but I'm not sure if he was actually involved in the capture of these specimens . If anyone knows more about the capture details of Banda and Konda , please enlighten.
(10-09-2022, 07:10 PM)Jerricson Wrote: @Roflcopters : "also where is the proof of Sub-Adult Bheema weighing 225kg as a sub adult, how much food content did he have?"
You know even I had the same exact query in my mind. Not just regarding Bheema , but Banda and Konda as well. As far as I know , only Punchkatta's weight was verified. I'm quite new to this whole weight debate but back in the days , you guys were collecting a lot of info on the weight of Indian tigers . So , does anyone here know who was the vet/field biologist in charge for the capture of all those Kanha males (specifically Konda and Banda) ? Because I can only see Min Ha confirmed their weights but I'm not sure if he was actually involved in the capture of these specimens . If anyone knows more about the capture details of Banda and Konda , please enlighten.
(10-09-2022, 06:43 PM)GreenForest Wrote: The T24's picture posted by @LonePredator was from his last capture. The one posted by @Pckts was from one of his previous capture. Just FYI.
As for Wagdoh, "For the last 15 days, the old tiger was found moving sluggishly and had virtually given up on life." (http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/artic...751857.cms) Most likely wagdoh didn't eat much in last few days of his death. If at all we have to subtract food content, then it will be 10-15kg. Nothing more. 255-260kg empty weight will put wagdoh as heaviest old aged wild bigcat in scientific records.
Time stamps from the captures showing different dates?
Or source?
Both have the same stretcher.
Wagdoh became a cattle killer after being dispatched for a few years before death and most likely was killing them prior as well.
He also was said to have killed a person recently before
His death.
(10-09-2022, 06:43 PM)GreenForest Wrote: The T24's picture posted by @LonePredator was from his last capture. The one posted by @Pckts was from one of his previous capture. Just FYI.
As for Wagdoh, "For the last 15 days, the old tiger was found moving sluggishly and had virtually given up on life." (http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/artic...751857.cms) Most likely wagdoh didn't eat much in last few days of his death. If at all we have to subtract food content, then it will be 10-15kg. Nothing more. 255-260kg empty weight will put wagdoh as heaviest old aged wild bigcat in scientific records.
Time stamps from the captures showing different dates?
Or source?
Both have the same stretcher.
Wagdoh became a cattle killer after being dispatched for a few years before death and most likely was killing them prior as well.
He also was said to have killed a person recently before
His death.
*This image is copyright of its original author
Great info Pckts, really makes you wonder about cattle killers. Just like the Kenyan 272 kg male lion that had a smaller frame, Wagdoh could have a lot of fat on him. Which makes way more sense when you look at Wagdoh’s measurments imo.
Knock said the lion appared fit like a wild lion, nothing like a zoo animal, but later it was said the lion was full of fat… Wagdoh also looked fine, but probably had decent amount of fat.
@Pckts The picture posted by @LonePredator come from this documentary which details his last capture and shifting to zoo. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pCyMXlukFTk&t=1s
Using same-looking stretchers doesn't mean same time. They can be used for capturing different tigers at different times. Look at the staff involved. Every picture shows different staff involved in T24's capture. We do know he was captured many times.
@Jerricson The guys like Minha, asianbuffalo are not reliable at all. They are associated with tourism sector and tend to overestimate kanha tigers.
(10-09-2022, 06:43 PM)GreenForest Wrote: The T24's picture posted by @LonePredator was from his last capture. The one posted by @Pckts was from one of his previous capture. Just FYI.
As for Wagdoh, "For the last 15 days, the old tiger was found moving sluggishly and had virtually given up on life." (http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/artic...751857.cms) Most likely wagdoh didn't eat much in last few days of his death. If at all we have to subtract food content, then it will be 10-15kg. Nothing more. 255-260kg empty weight will put wagdoh as heaviest old aged wild bigcat in scientific records.
Time stamps from the captures showing different dates?
Or source?
Both have the same stretcher.
Wagdoh became a cattle killer after being dispatched for a few years before death and most likely was killing them prior as well.
He also was said to have killed a person recently before
His death.
*This image is copyright of its original author
Great info Pckts, really makes you wonder about cattle killers. Just like the Kenyan 272 kg male lion that had a smaller frame, Wagdoh could have a lot of fat on him. Which makes way more sense when you look at Wagdoh’s measurments imo.
Knock said the lion appared fit like a wild lion, nothing like a zoo animal, but later it was said the lion was full of fat… Wagdoh also looked fine, but probably had decent amount of fat.
208cm HBL in straight line is very large. It’s not small by any means.
10-09-2022, 09:17 PM( This post was last modified: 10-09-2022, 09:21 PM by Pckts )
(10-09-2022, 09:09 PM)GreenForest Wrote: @Pckts The picture posted by @LonePredator come from this documentary which details his last capture and shifting to zoo. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pCyMXlukFTk&t=1s
Using same-looking stretchers doesn't mean same time. They can be used for capturing different tigers at different times. Look at the staff involved. Every picture shows different staff involved in T24's capture. We do know he was captured many times.
@Jerricson The guys like Minha, asianbuffalo are not reliable at all. They are associated with tourism sector and tend to overestimate kanha tigers.
Minha has massive access to the Kanha FD and Vijay who I quoted works directly with them.
Trust me, I’m not a fan of either but their information, connection and experience are not in question.
I’m regards to the staff, there’s a lot of people involved and unfortunately the shots are close up. It’s possible but I’m not saying yes or no without seeing a bit more proof.
Also, I had no idea they were making a documentary about him. In the end the did the right thing by removing him, whether it was his fault or not is moot. He would have continued to kill people and then they would have taken revenge not just on him but any Tiger they saw.
It was a sad affair.
(10-09-2022, 06:43 PM)GreenForest Wrote: The T24's picture posted by @LonePredator was from his last capture. The one posted by @Pckts was from one of his previous capture. Just FYI.
As for Wagdoh, "For the last 15 days, the old tiger was found moving sluggishly and had virtually given up on life." (http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/artic...751857.cms) Most likely wagdoh didn't eat much in last few days of his death. If at all we have to subtract food content, then it will be 10-15kg. Nothing more. 255-260kg empty weight will put wagdoh as heaviest old aged wild bigcat in scientific records.
Time stamps from the captures showing different dates?
Or source?
Both have the same stretcher.
Wagdoh became a cattle killer after being dispatched for a few years before death and most likely was killing them prior as well.
He also was said to have killed a person recently before
His death.
*This image is copyright of its original author
Great info Pckts, really makes you wonder about cattle killers. Just like the Kenyan 272 kg male lion that had a smaller frame, Wagdoh could have a lot of fat on him. Which makes way more sense when you look at Wagdoh’s measurments imo.
Knock said the lion appared fit like a wild lion, nothing like a zoo animal, but later it was said the lion was full of fat… Wagdoh also looked fine, but probably had decent amount of fat.
208cm HBL in straight line is very large. It’s not small by any means.
Do we know if it was taken in a straight line? If he was bloated and it was taken over the curves it could have been highly exaggerated.
Yes his HB length is fine, but I’m still puzzled by the weight looking at his height and chest measurments.
10-09-2022, 09:26 PM( This post was last modified: 10-09-2022, 09:30 PM by Pckts )
(10-09-2022, 09:22 PM)Pantherinae Wrote:
(10-09-2022, 09:13 PM)LonePredator Wrote:
(10-09-2022, 09:08 PM)Pantherinae Wrote:
(10-09-2022, 07:49 PM)Pckts Wrote:
(10-09-2022, 06:43 PM)GreenForest Wrote: The T24's picture posted by @LonePredator was from his last capture. The one posted by @Pckts was from one of his previous capture. Just FYI.
As for Wagdoh, "For the last 15 days, the old tiger was found moving sluggishly and had virtually given up on life." (http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/artic...751857.cms) Most likely wagdoh didn't eat much in last few days of his death. If at all we have to subtract food content, then it will be 10-15kg. Nothing more. 255-260kg empty weight will put wagdoh as heaviest old aged wild bigcat in scientific records.
Time stamps from the captures showing different dates?
Or source?
Both have the same stretcher.
Wagdoh became a cattle killer after being dispatched for a few years before death and most likely was killing them prior as well.
He also was said to have killed a person recently before
His death.
*This image is copyright of its original author
Great info Pckts, really makes you wonder about cattle killers. Just like the Kenyan 272 kg male lion that had a smaller frame, Wagdoh could have a lot of fat on him. Which makes way more sense when you look at Wagdoh’s measurments imo.
Knock said the lion appared fit like a wild lion, nothing like a zoo animal, but later it was said the lion was full of fat… Wagdoh also looked fine, but probably had decent amount of fat.
208cm HBL in straight line is very large. It’s not small by any means.
Do we know if it was taken in a straight line? If he was bloated and it was taken over the curves it could have been highly exaggerated.
Yes his HB length is fine, but I’m still puzzled by the weight looking at his height and chest measurments.
No, protocols are unknown. Chest girth and height are a bit small for a cat of that size.
The bloating would affect the chest girth more than the length if they go from the back, if the side then it’d affect that as well.
Modern weights and measurements on wild tigers
