There is a world somewhere between reality and fiction. Although ignored by many, it is very real and so are those living in it. This forum is about the natural world. Here, wild animals will be heard and respected. The forum offers a glimpse into an unknown world as well as a room with a view on the present and the future. Anyone able to speak on behalf of those living in the emerald forest and the deep blue sea is invited to join.
01-28-2022, 02:15 AM( This post was last modified: 01-28-2022, 02:16 AM by Pckts )
(01-28-2022, 01:59 AM)GuateGojira Wrote:
(01-27-2022, 11:34 PM)SpinoRex Wrote: I have this picture here. I took a pic from a study when i was looking at some other study topics. Im trying to find the study but for now i have just a picture. Here is a lion with a Claw length of 8.1 cm using pixel scaling. Was already quoted to be a large one...
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
Intersting as it is, there is no document, chapter or study, that I am aware, that mentions the length of the claws in lions. There are some mentions in webpages with no references, but that is all.
So I will not be surprised if the claws of lions reach the 8 cm over the curve. In fact, it seems that only Mazák took the patience to measured the claws of the tigers, which reach up to 10 cm over the curves, and some of his animals were of great size.
In this case, I think that 8 cm on the curve is a good size for the claw of a lion.
The largest modern day claws that’s been posted have been around 8.5cm. Even this Hungarian lion claw reaching that size is questionable at best, the recreation looks a bit too long in the rendering compared to the one I showed.
In regards to Mazaks 10 cm claw claims, do you know if images exist?
(01-28-2022, 02:15 AM)Pckts Wrote: In regards to Mazaks 10 cm claw claims, do you know if images exist?
Nop, and I have his book here in my hands right now. However, I he says that he measure them, then is true.
What I can't found in any part is the old claim that the Caspian tigers had larger claws than other subspecies. I checked and re-checked and I could not found anything. So probably is just another myth from the internet.
Certainly a claw of 10 cm in the curve will belong to large Bengal and Amur male tigers, which are known to litteraly destroy the neck of big prey like boars and buffaloes with one powerfull blow of they paws.
(01-28-2022, 02:15 AM)Pckts Wrote: In regards to Mazaks 10 cm claw claims, do you know if images exist?
Nop, and I have his book here in my hands right now. However, I he says that he measure them, then is true.
What I can't found in any part is the old claim that the Caspian tigers had larger claws than other subspecies. I checked and re-checked and I could not found anything. So probably is just another myth from the internet.
Certainly a claw of 10 cm in the curve will belong to large Bengal and Amur male tigers, which are known to litteraly destroy the neck of big prey like boars and buffaloes with one powerfull blow of they paws.
10 cm over the curve is possible but we have 100s of claws posted and none have exceeded 8.5cm in a straight line so I would have serious doubts about 10 cm, especially a multitude of them.
01-28-2022, 03:27 AM( This post was last modified: 01-28-2022, 03:32 AM by SpinoRex )
(01-28-2022, 01:59 AM)GuateGojira Wrote:
(01-27-2022, 11:34 PM)SpinoRex Wrote: I have this picture here. I took a pic from a study when i was looking at some other study topics. Im trying to find the study but for now i have just a picture. Here is a lion with a Claw length of 8.1 cm using pixel scaling. Was already quoted to be a large one...
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
Intersting as it is, there is no document, chapter or study, that I am aware, that mentions the length of the claws in lions. There are some mentions in webpages with no references, but that is all.
So I will not be surprised if the claws of lions reach the 8 cm over the curve. In fact, it seems that only Mazák took the patience to measured the claws of the tigers, which reach up to 10 cm over the curves, and some of his animals were of great size.
In this case, I think that 8 cm on the curve is a good size for the claw of a lion.
I was also surprised. Although I believe that some lions can achieve it. I have a total of 3-4 lion claws that particularly stand out. Also length alone doesnt cut it as the size will still vary and some claws are more curved.
This lion claw is besides his length also really strong and thick!
Length: 7 cm straight, 10.8 cm over curves Width: 5.7 cm
Quote:
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
-2-
Quote:Length: 6.7 cm straight, 11.4 cm over curves Width: 5.4 cm
-3-
(Accurate estimate based on pixel scaling using the 5.8cm knife as reference). The lower claw is just around 4.9 cm long straight / 9.3 cm over curves Length: 6 cm, 10 cm over curves Width: 5.1 cm
(01-27-2022, 11:34 PM)SpinoRex Wrote: I have this picture here. I took a pic from a study when i was looking at some other study topics. Im trying to find the study but for now i have just a picture. Here is a lion with a Claw length of 8.1 cm using pixel scaling. Was already quoted to be a large one...
*This image is copyright of its original author
The fossil claw looks slightly stretched, maybe the unstretched length would be around 7 cm.
(01-28-2022, 02:39 AM)Pckts Wrote: 10 cm over the curve is possible but we have 100s of claws posted and none have exceeded 8.5cm in a straight line so I would have serious doubts about 10 cm, especially a multitude of them.
I don't have doubts, after all, Vratislav Mazák is a serious reference and a great investigator. He had the oportunity to measure some of the biggest tigers on record, even if they were captive, and I seriously doubt that any of your 100s claws posted in this topic belonged to any animal close in the size tothose large Amur tigers that Mazák had the oportunity to measure.
(01-27-2022, 11:34 PM)SpinoRex Wrote: I have this picture here. I took a pic from a study when i was looking at some other study topics. Im trying to find the study but for now i have just a picture. Here is a lion with a Claw length of 8.1 cm using pixel scaling. Was already quoted to be a large one...
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
Intersting as it is, there is no document, chapter or study, that I am aware, that mentions the length of the claws in lions. There are some mentions in webpages with no references, but that is all.
So I will not be surprised if the claws of lions reach the 8 cm over the curve. In fact, it seems that only Mazák took the patience to measured the claws of the tigers, which reach up to 10 cm over the curves, and some of his animals were of great size.
In this case, I think that 8 cm on the curve is a good size for the claw of a lion.
The largest modern day claws that’s been posted have been around 8.5cm. Even this Hungarian lion claw reaching that size is questionable at best, the recreation looks a bit too long in the rendering compared to the one I showed.
In regards to Mazaks 10 cm claw claims, do you know if images exist?
The claw sheath has been pulled from the bone, that's why it looks longer.
The natural length of the claw of this Hungarian Cave lion should be around 7 cm, and it was obviously belonged to a large old male.
The 8.5 cm for Amur tiger and 7.2 cm for Bengal tiger are natural length without being pulled from the bone.
(01-27-2022, 11:34 PM)SpinoRex Wrote: I have this picture here. I took a pic from a study when i was looking at some other study topics. Im trying to find the study but for now i have just a picture. Here is a lion with a Claw length of 8.1 cm using pixel scaling. Was already quoted to be a large one...
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
Intersting as it is, there is no document, chapter or study, that I am aware, that mentions the length of the claws in lions. There are some mentions in webpages with no references, but that is all.
So I will not be surprised if the claws of lions reach the 8 cm over the curve. In fact, it seems that only Mazák took the patience to measured the claws of the tigers, which reach up to 10 cm over the curves, and some of his animals were of great size.
In this case, I think that 8 cm on the curve is a good size for the claw of a lion.
I was also surprised. Although I believe that some lions can achieve it. I have a total of 3-4 lion claws that particularly stand out. Also length alone doesnt cut it as the size will still vary and some claws are more curved.
This lion claw is besides his length also really strong and thick!
Length: 7 cm straight, 10.8 cm over curves Width: 5.7 cm
Quote:
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
-2-
Quote:Length: 6.7 cm straight, 11.4 cm over curves Width: 5.4 cm
-3-
(Accurate estimate based on pixel scaling using the 5.8cm knife as reference). The lower claw is just around 4.9 cm long straight / 9.3 cm over curves Length: 6 cm, 10 cm over curves Width: 5.1 cm
All measurements shown are estimates and over the curves is flawed since claws wear down with age while the curvature and hood size aren’t effected by it.
We have 100s of verified measurements with actual measuring tools shown in the big cat claws thread.
I assume you’re Muhammad?
(01-28-2022, 02:39 AM)Pckts Wrote: 10 cm over the curve is possible but we have 100s of claws posted and none have exceeded 8.5cm in a straight line so I would have serious doubts about 10 cm, especially a multitude of them.
I don't have doubts, after all, Vratislav Mazák is a serious reference and a great investigator. He had the oportunity to measure some of the biggest tigers on record, even if they were captive, and I seriously doubt that any of your 100s claws posted in this topic belonged to any animal close in the size tothose large Amur tigers that Mazák had the oportunity to measure.
So, I take the word and work of Mazák on this.
The 10 cm Amur tiger claw referred by Dr. Mazák was also measured over the curve.
Maybe around the same league with the 8.5 cm Amur tiger claw in straight line.
(01-27-2022, 11:34 PM)SpinoRex Wrote: I have this picture here. I took a pic from a study when i was looking at some other study topics. Im trying to find the study but for now i have just a picture. Here is a lion with a Claw length of 8.1 cm using pixel scaling. Was already quoted to be a large one...
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
Intersting as it is, there is no document, chapter or study, that I am aware, that mentions the length of the claws in lions. There are some mentions in webpages with no references, but that is all.
So I will not be surprised if the claws of lions reach the 8 cm over the curve. In fact, it seems that only Mazák took the patience to measured the claws of the tigers, which reach up to 10 cm over the curves, and some of his animals were of great size.
In this case, I think that 8 cm on the curve is a good size for the claw of a lion.
The largest modern day claws that’s been posted have been around 8.5cm. Even this Hungarian lion claw reaching that size is questionable at best, the recreation looks a bit too long in the rendering compared to the one I showed.
In regards to Mazaks 10 cm claw claims, do you know if images exist?
The claw sheath has been pulled from the bone, that's why it looks longer.
The natural length of the claw of this Hungarian Cave lion should be around 7 cm, and it was obviously belonged to a large old male.
The 8.5 cm for Amur tiger and 7.2 cm for Bengal tiger are natural length without being pulled from the bone.
I believe the actual claw is a rendering while the sheath was the only piece found if I’m reading it correctly?
(01-27-2022, 11:34 PM)SpinoRex Wrote: I have this picture here. I took a pic from a study when i was looking at some other study topics. Im trying to find the study but for now i have just a picture. Here is a lion with a Claw length of 8.1 cm using pixel scaling. Was already quoted to be a large one...
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
Intersting as it is, there is no document, chapter or study, that I am aware, that mentions the length of the claws in lions. There are some mentions in webpages with no references, but that is all.
So I will not be surprised if the claws of lions reach the 8 cm over the curve. In fact, it seems that only Mazák took the patience to measured the claws of the tigers, which reach up to 10 cm over the curves, and some of his animals were of great size.
In this case, I think that 8 cm on the curve is a good size for the claw of a lion.
The largest modern day claws that’s been posted have been around 8.5cm. Even this Hungarian lion claw reaching that size is questionable at best, the recreation looks a bit too long in the rendering compared to the one I showed.
In regards to Mazaks 10 cm claw claims, do you know if images exist?
The claw sheath has been pulled from the bone, that's why it looks longer.
The natural length of the claw of this Hungarian Cave lion should be around 7 cm, and it was obviously belonged to a large old male.
The 8.5 cm for Amur tiger and 7.2 cm for Bengal tiger are natural length without being pulled from the bone.
I believe the actual claw is a rendering while the sheath was the only piece found if I’m reading it correctly?
(01-28-2022, 02:39 AM)Pckts Wrote: 10 cm over the curve is possible but we have 100s of claws posted and none have exceeded 8.5cm in a straight line so I would have serious doubts about 10 cm, especially a multitude of them.
I don't have doubts, after all, Vratislav Mazák is a serious reference and a great investigator. He had the oportunity to measure some of the biggest tigers on record, even if they were captive, and I seriously doubt that any of your 100s claws posted in this topic belonged to any animal close in the size tothose large Amur tigers that Mazák had the oportunity to measure.
So, I take the word and work of Mazák on this.
It’s not a matter of taking the word or not but understanding if it’s over the curves or not, this is very important. The odds of none of the captive Amurs used not being close to the same size as Mazaks Tigers are slim, the data base is quite large.
The largest captive Amurs on record would be Gamin and Kistora, I wonder if Craig has their claw measurements.
01-28-2022, 04:00 AM( This post was last modified: 01-28-2022, 04:08 AM by SpinoRex )
(01-28-2022, 03:50 AM)Pckts Wrote:
(01-28-2022, 03:27 AM)SpinoRex Wrote:
(01-28-2022, 01:59 AM)GuateGojira Wrote:
(01-27-2022, 11:34 PM)SpinoRex Wrote: I have this picture here. I took a pic from a study when i was looking at some other study topics. Im trying to find the study but for now i have just a picture. Here is a lion with a Claw length of 8.1 cm using pixel scaling. Was already quoted to be a large one...
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
Intersting as it is, there is no document, chapter or study, that I am aware, that mentions the length of the claws in lions. There are some mentions in webpages with no references, but that is all.
So I will not be surprised if the claws of lions reach the 8 cm over the curve. In fact, it seems that only Mazák took the patience to measured the claws of the tigers, which reach up to 10 cm over the curves, and some of his animals were of great size.
In this case, I think that 8 cm on the curve is a good size for the claw of a lion.
I was also surprised. Although I believe that some lions can achieve it. I have a total of 3-4 lion claws that particularly stand out. Also length alone doesnt cut it as the size will still vary and some claws are more curved.
This lion claw is besides his length also really strong and thick!
Length: 7 cm straight, 10.8 cm over curves Width: 5.7 cm
Quote:
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
-2-
Quote:Length: 6.7 cm straight, 11.4 cm over curves Width: 5.4 cm
-3-
(Accurate estimate based on pixel scaling using the 5.8cm knife as reference). The lower claw is just around 4.9 cm long straight / 9.3 cm over curves Length: 6 cm, 10 cm over curves Width: 5.1 cm
All measurements shown are estimates and over the curves is flawed since claws wear down with age while the curvature and hood size aren’t effected by it.
We have 100s of verified measurements with actual measuring tools shown in the big cat claws thread.
I assume you’re Muhammad?
The measurements are not estimated. The first, second were definitely measured. The third was an "estimate" but easy to calculate because of the knife.
The user has set the curve length in the file as 5_8, which should mean 5.8 cm. The same is true for the curve measurements
No, I am not Muhammad. Do you mean the user who discussed this topic with you on Carnivora? I looked at the pictures there and did some research (The note on the pictures) and finally came to the above website i linked.
He gave wrong measurement as the picture was angled (the picture with the tape). I think he claimed the claw to be around 8cm
(01-27-2022, 11:34 PM)SpinoRex Wrote: I have this picture here. I took a pic from a study when i was looking at some other study topics. Im trying to find the study but for now i have just a picture. Here is a lion with a Claw length of 8.1 cm using pixel scaling. Was already quoted to be a large one...
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
Intersting as it is, there is no document, chapter or study, that I am aware, that mentions the length of the claws in lions. There are some mentions in webpages with no references, but that is all.
So I will not be surprised if the claws of lions reach the 8 cm over the curve. In fact, it seems that only Mazák took the patience to measured the claws of the tigers, which reach up to 10 cm over the curves, and some of his animals were of great size.
In this case, I think that 8 cm on the curve is a good size for the claw of a lion.
I was also surprised. Although I believe that some lions can achieve it. I have a total of 3-4 lion claws that particularly stand out. Also length alone doesnt cut it as the size will still vary and some claws are more curved.
This lion claw is besides his length also really strong and thick!
Length: 7 cm straight, 10.8 cm over curves Width: 5.7 cm
Quote:
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
-2-
Quote:Length: 6.7 cm straight, 11.4 cm over curves Width: 5.4 cm
-3-
(Accurate estimate based on pixel scaling using the 5.8cm knife as reference). The lower claw is just around 4.9 cm long straight / 9.3 cm over curves Length: 6 cm, 10 cm over curves Width: 5.1 cm
All measurements shown are estimates and over the curves is flawed since claws wear down with age while the curvature and hood size aren’t effected by it.
We have 100s of verified measurements with actual measuring tools shown in the big cat claws thread.
I assume you’re Muhammad?
The measurements are not estimated. The first, second were definitely measured. The third was an "estimate" but easy to calculate because of the knife.
The user has set the curve length in the file as 5_8, which should mean 5.8 cm. The same is true for the curve measurements
No, I am not Muhammad. Do you mean the user who discussed this topic with you on Carnivora? I looked at the pictures there and did some research (The note on the pictures) and finally came to the above website i linked.
He gave wrong measurement as the picture was angled (the picture with the tape). I think he claimed the claw to be around 8cm
Using a quarter or knife for scale isn’t verified, it’s still an estimate unless you have measurements shown.
On top of a lack of measurement verification you also don’t know the means by which the #’s claimed were come across.
01-28-2022, 05:07 AM( This post was last modified: 01-28-2022, 05:08 AM by SpinoRex )
(01-28-2022, 04:54 AM)Pckts Wrote:
(01-28-2022, 04:00 AM)SpinoRex Wrote:
(01-28-2022, 03:50 AM)Pckts Wrote:
(01-28-2022, 03:27 AM)SpinoRex Wrote:
(01-28-2022, 01:59 AM)GuateGojira Wrote:
(01-27-2022, 11:34 PM)SpinoRex Wrote: I have this picture here. I took a pic from a study when i was looking at some other study topics. Im trying to find the study but for now i have just a picture. Here is a lion with a Claw length of 8.1 cm using pixel scaling. Was already quoted to be a large one...
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
Intersting as it is, there is no document, chapter or study, that I am aware, that mentions the length of the claws in lions. There are some mentions in webpages with no references, but that is all.
So I will not be surprised if the claws of lions reach the 8 cm over the curve. In fact, it seems that only Mazák took the patience to measured the claws of the tigers, which reach up to 10 cm over the curves, and some of his animals were of great size.
In this case, I think that 8 cm on the curve is a good size for the claw of a lion.
I was also surprised. Although I believe that some lions can achieve it. I have a total of 3-4 lion claws that particularly stand out. Also length alone doesnt cut it as the size will still vary and some claws are more curved.
This lion claw is besides his length also really strong and thick!
Length: 7 cm straight, 10.8 cm over curves Width: 5.7 cm
Quote:
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
-2-
Quote:Length: 6.7 cm straight, 11.4 cm over curves Width: 5.4 cm
-3-
(Accurate estimate based on pixel scaling using the 5.8cm knife as reference). The lower claw is just around 4.9 cm long straight / 9.3 cm over curves Length: 6 cm, 10 cm over curves Width: 5.1 cm
All measurements shown are estimates and over the curves is flawed since claws wear down with age while the curvature and hood size aren’t effected by it.
We have 100s of verified measurements with actual measuring tools shown in the big cat claws thread.
I assume you’re Muhammad?
The measurements are not estimated. The first, second were definitely measured. The third was an "estimate" but easy to calculate because of the knife.
The user has set the curve length in the file as 5_8, which should mean 5.8 cm. The same is true for the curve measurements
No, I am not Muhammad. Do you mean the user who discussed this topic with you on Carnivora? I looked at the pictures there and did some research (The note on the pictures) and finally came to the above website i linked.
He gave wrong measurement as the picture was angled (the picture with the tape). I think he claimed the claw to be around 8cm
Using a quarter or knife for scale isn’t verified, it’s still an estimate unless you have measurements shown.
On top of a lack of measurement verification you also don’t know the means by which the #’s claimed were come across.
I know but its pretty accurate and clearly around 6cm as the difference between the knife and the claw is barely noticable. But even then look at the post from the user. He provided numerous measurements and even for the first claw you can see its matching (looking at the tape, near to the 3 inch mark).
Also looking at it.... one has to compare bengals and amur tigers with the same knuckle size. Larger knuckles have generally larger claws.
I just found these things and wanted to share it. Im not really heavily interested in claws or whatever but thought its worth to be mentioned
