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Zoos, Circuses, Safaris: A Gallery of Captivity
Zoos, Circuses, Safaris: A Gallery of Captivity
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Zoos, Circuses, Safaris: A Gallery of Captivity
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This story is told ( but lost ) somewhere over at the old AVA. The lion cubs and bear cubs grew up together in this zoo, in Japan I believe ( could be wrong ). The bears are Hokkaido brown bears ( Ursus arctos yesoensis ). Although they are the same age, the lions are fully mature while the bears are hardly more than sub-adults. No serious fighting was ever reported among these well aquainted animals. But, I doubt that they were kept together as the bears began to fully mature. It is my understanding that the Hokkaido bears are very closely related to the Ussuri brown bears of Siberia.
 Tiger's a rescue w/what looks like a deformity in its leg possible. Nice to rescue's find a home. Hopefully their nuetered and get to live their life out in peace. 
Pckts, so you think there are no videos of the pair of cubs in post #6 on line as older animals? Might that young pair and the slightly older pair in the video I posted in post #8 be the same pair? I really can't expect you to know for sure. Just curious as to how the relationships between different cat species raised together develop over time.
ZOOLOGISCHER GARTEN, BERLIN
Last week, I was in Berlin. This great city has two zoos, about 9 miles apart. We only had time for the 'Zoologischer Garten' in the city centre. This zoo has many animals seen nowhere else. The most remarkable were the barasingha (a large Indian swamp deer), Pere David's deer (a large deer that became extinct in the wild at the turn of the last century, but was able to survive as a a result of captive specimens in the Berlin Zoo and an estate in the UK), the fossa (Madagaskar tree predator), the Java leopard (I never saw one before) as well as many others. The Himalayan black bear, an oldish male, was as wide as a decent truck. He was closely followed by the Indian sloth bear. The jaguars were sturdy, massive and heavy, but not large. This was not true for the lions. I wasn't able to figure out where they came from, but the male was the most muscular I ever saw. Definitely very close to the large male in a Scandinavian zoo discussed recently, but, in my opinion, much more developed. I didn't see any fat anywhere and he has it all: a large skull, a great mane, a massive upper body, tall and, to wind it up, a long body. A classic male lion, but in the hors category. I will not forget about the hind legs. It seemed as if he had been selected to tow carts and developed even after that. The lioness was much smaller, but as robust. We were able to see him at close range (6 feet or a little more). As the crowd admiring his classic features had a few well over 220 pounds, I was able to get to a guesstimate. My bet for now would be 3.5-3.6 at the shoulder standing, 9.6-9.8 in total length or a trifle more and 540-570 pounds, maybe even a bit more. I don't think there was much room for big mistakes. The main thing to remember, apart from his hind legs, was, as always in lions, the body. Massive and muscular. Skull large, wide and heavy. Power. The three tigers all belong to Panthera tigris corbetti. This subspecies isn't often seen in zoos. Compared to the lioness, the two tigresses were taller, longer, more developed in the legs and much more active. The lioness, however, could have had a few pounds on them in the end. My guesstimate would be 300-320 pounds for all and no fat anywhere. The male tiger was a very nice one. Tall, long, well-proportioned, very muscular legs, a small mane and a rounded, quite large, skull. Stripes black, narrow, long and numerous. Ground colour a trifle paler than in many Indian tigers. Between 360-400 pounds, I think. The main thing to remember, as in most tigers, was the legs and the athleticism oozing from the well-proportioned bodies. Speed and power. DEBATES When my companions had a small, but heated, debate as to the possible outcome of a bout between the male lion and the male tiger, some of the Germans in the crowd overheard us and offered their opinion. It is true, they said, the lion is larger and heavier, but tigers are faster and more 'aggressive'. Advantage lion, but not a walk-over by any means, it was concluded. I was a bit surprised about the outcome of the debate, as we know it usually goes with weight in male tigers. There's no reason to assume it would be much different in engagements between male lions or males of both species, but apparently not everyone agreed. Debates on lions and tigers compare to those on soccer. You just never know, but everyone is prepared to offer an opinion in spite of that. Could be interesting, if those involved only could have been able to refrain from teapot observations and insult. The point is things in the similar weight and age division are close to unpredictable. This is why most were not prepared to bet on the outcome of a fight. It is a great pity animals forums keen on a long life have to refrain from offering the opportunity to debate. We could learn a lot from those who have a bit of experience or knowledge, but can't as a result of the inability or the unwillingness to debate. A debate, almost by definition, is about things that are undecided. This prospect, apparently, is too much to bear for most. The experience in the Zoologischer Garten, however, says it can be done if those involved are willing to accept a few rules. Anyhow, we spend many hours in the zoo and the restaurant wasn't bad either. And all this in the very pleasant October sun for extras. How lucky can you get. Photographs to be posted later. (10-18-2014, 06:18 PM)'Siegfried' Wrote: Pckts, so you think there are no videos of the pair of cubs in post #6 on line as older animals? Might that young pair and the slightly older pair in the video I posted in post #8 be the same pair? I really can't expect you to know for sure. Just curious as to how the relationships between different cat species raised together develop over time.The video you uploaded is from 2010, the video I showed is from 2012, you can also see them as cubs as well. They're different animals.
circusnospinzone.com has some great stories from Wade Burk (circus performer) and awesome images from preformers from many countries. Feel free to check it out if any of you are interested.
Some of Peters words on the differences between Zoo or Circus Tigers compared to their wild counterparts
" THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN WILD AND CAPTIVE ANIMALS As for your remarks. I agree there is a big difference between wild and captive animals in general and tigers in particular. Tigers in particular, because of the demands connected to a solitary way of life, the nature of their 'profession' and the amount of competition. These 'demands' are pretty serious. Even experienced tigresses in well-protected and well-stocked areas in modern India, for cubs growing to adulthood, do not get close to 50%. Meaning natural selection in tigers operates at a very high level. The flow of information on tigers in modern India indicates life isn't easy for adults as well. The number of animals killed in fights is relatively very high (in some reserves up to 30% a year or even more for adult males). Staggering, one would conclude. I read many reports on fights in the recent past in the JBNHS and it seems modern Indian tigers succumb more often in fights than a century ago. It could be the small size of the reserves (probably causing the high level of competition perceived) is the main cause for the problems. All this to indicate only few wild tigers reach adulthood. One has to assume these 'survivors', for acquired skills, fitness, constitution and attitude, probably are very different from those that didn't make it. And even more different from their captive relatives. Which was stated by Dunbar-Brander, Pocock and a host of others. It was stated, because tigers, more han other big cats, often quickly (within one generation) degenerate in captivity. The factors mentioned in the second paragraph could perhaps be regarded as a result of specialisation. Meaning it would acquire more skills and, therefore, more time to develop into the animal we discuss. And more so for tigers than for jaguars or leopards, because of their size. In order to understand this point, go to a wild place and try to approach wild animals undetected. Before you starve to death, write a full report. HAGENBECK ON WILD TIGERS I referred to his book in my first post on this thread. Hagenbeck (remember there were more operating in the field we're interested in) was a man who loved animals. Although he was more interested in big cats than in other animals, he wasn't preferenced regarding species. He often trained the animals he caught or bought himself and made no difference between both big cats. Hagenbeck stated some of the wild Indian tigers he caught or bought were so large and wild, they couldn't be trained at all. Or sold to trainers. He often regretted they had been caught in the first place. Too wild to be humanised, he thought. Talkin' tigers caught in the second half of the nineteenth century. These animals could be used to humans to an extent, but even Hagenbeck stayed well clear of their cages. There was one giant male (bought in Calcutta in 1891) who, after a very long time, accepted him to an extent, but he wasn't to be trusted with anyone else. Or any other animal. Including those of his own kind. There is wild and wild. Wild big cats, and wild tigers in particular, are very, very different from their captive relatives in attitude. My father had the great opportunity to see a few from Java and Sumatra in Tandjung Priok (the harbour of Djakarta) and one in the harbour of Bombay. The Indonesians forced the tigers to fight wild buffalo's, whereas the Indian was used for display. He said the Indian was the wildest animal he ever saw. He especially remembered the attitude, which he described as a kind of self-awareness not seen in other animals (and humans, for that matter). Nature in full glory, it seems. Difficult to describe. Another thing I learned was one has to understand many 'Indian tigers' in Europe and the USA weren't caught in India. Remember Mazak was the first who proposed to distinguish between Panthera tigris tigris and Panthera tigris corbetti in the sixties of the last century only. True Indian tigers, Hagenbeck thought, were very different from 'corbetti' in that they, apart from their larger size, were wilder at heart. Much wilder. Tigers in most places in India had been accustomed to humans for a very long time and the reports I read indicate many hunters and naturalists thought this brand of tigers, more so than other subspecies, had no bones for humans. It was in their genes. Many regarded humans as just another source of food in lean times and it took a long time indeed to change their habits to an extent. Many, untill well into the nineteenth and even the twentieth century, stated the nature of interactions between tigers and humans reminded them of a war in many wild places. The fear of tigers in many parts of India was, and is, well founded. "  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author Training Big Cats Part 6 Do big cats experience emotions? Yes, very much so. In some respects, they seem to experience more than we do. And they most certainly react to emotions and moods. Animals also seem to be aware of life and death. Anyway. When interviewing trainers, I always asked about their opinion on big cats, emotions and moods. Most thought adult females were more, to use a much used word, 'volatile' than males. More nervous, others would say. Or more responsive to circumstances. Trainers often like females better than males, because they are more responsive and more active. Adult males are more stable and consistent, but less active. When females are in heat, they can get obsessed and unpredictable. This is more true for lions than for solitary big cats. Competition is in their genes. Many years ago I visited the Hagenbeck Zoo in Hamburg, northern Germany. They had a lion house shaped in a semi-circle. When I entered, I was immediately struck by the tremendous roars of 3 adult males competing for two females in heat. They went on for hours and it was a very impressive display of anything we almost forgot. Sexual drive and anything connected to it, in my opinion, is most pronounced in lions. Male lions competing for females are very aggressive and shouldn't be used to perform. They are extremely volatile and will attack anything when they feel like it. In solitary captive big cats, males also compete for females. The difference with lions is you, as a visitor, seldom notice what is going on. It's the trainer who sees the fights between the males and the games of the female and it is he who often decides who will court who. Male lions will often forget about competition when to season is over, but this isn't true for male tigers. It's during these periods fueds develop. They are for life and often end with one dead. This is the main reason for tiger transfers. As for moods. Most trainers told me tigers, cougars and snow leopards roughly compare in that they are quite stable and active. Most like interacting with humans and there seem to be less accidents with them. Tigers fight animals they don't like. They don't fight for food or dominance. Leopards are capable of deep emotions and sincere affection with one human, but not with others. So one it is. One trainer described male leopards as psychopaths, but others were able to connect to them. To an extent. A bit either or. Leopards fight (males) are vicious and short. Jaguars are more of an enigma for most. Like lion, they are competative and do not like interacting with humans. The difference is they always go for the kill in a fight. They respond to trainers, but even experienced trainers remain wary in the presence of jaguars. Those that had worked with jaguars thought they are less intelligent than leopards and more single-minded and more dangerous. In Europe, most keepers wounded or killed by big cats are killed by jaguars. Smaller than lions, jaguars often surprise their keepers. And they don't bond. You have to stay tuned all the time. Lions show most difference between the sexes. Many females are not aggressive, but utterly uninterested in humans. Males, even at the best of times, are subject to abrupt changes in mood. Most trainers and keepers think male lions are nasty customers. Lions usually do not interact with people. They live in a different dimension and often see right through you. You just aren't there. Until the opportunity presents itself. Captive male lions often quarrel and fight. Most fights are about dominance and they frequently occur. Fights are vicious, as lions do not mean meaby. They give it all they got and often skip rituals, but apparently do not intend to kill their opponent. Trainers have to be at their guard all the time and it often shows (see below). In general, males are much more combattive than females. Female fights, according to most trainers, seem to be more vicious. There are different ways to get information on big cats. You can observe the animals, but you can also observe trainers. When preparing an interview, I never selected at the gate. All trainers would do just fine. Many years later, I noticed trainers working with tigers and cougars were always interested in an interview. They took their time as well. This was not the case with lion trainers. They are more wary (I could be Animal Liberation, IRS or similar) and when they agreed, which wasn't often, they tried to cut it short whenever possible. A bit uninviting. Most were not interested in talking lion. There was something else on their mind and it wasn't funny. The leopard trainer was sure about himself and friendly, but wary. Leopards are unpredictable ('sneaky'). Visitors don't expect it, but the trainer always watched for signs of trouble. A bit nervous. The jaguar trainer (I only saw one, but the others I interviewed had also trained jaguars and bears) was completely on himself and not interested in anything. Although young, he seemed in the spell of something difficult to describe. Doomed. I felt for him, but was unable to connect. Ah well, jaguars. A couple more thoughts from the trainers peter had interviewed on big cats "Most trainers I interviewed worked with different species, bears and/or mixed groups. It can be done and is in fact quite common. However. After a few years, most change to their favourite animals when they have a choice. The reason is experience and character. When they don't have a choice, they are selected because of their character. Captive male lions, regarding humans, are non-communicative animals often subjected to violent changes in mood. When they communicate, they more often than not use some kind of force. As social animals living in prides, they only subject to a greater force. For now. But situations can change suddenly and a trainer needs to be wary all the time. A trainer adjusts or struggles. Most trainers told me they often felt obliged to use some kind of force when working with lions. If they didn't, they were ignored and often faced turbulence. Those able to work with lions for a long time seem to be similar in many ways. The ones I saw and interviewed were non-communicative and when they talked, they did so on their own terms. No sentences, but words. No answers to questions, but strong opinions. And no explanations whatsoever. They didn't tell me to do explanations on the attic, but in the end they did. Lions = this is what it is and when you no like too bad. Trainers comply. Wary characters, often a bit distrusting and alienated. Volatile meaby. They just don't care that much about anything else than their pride, but do not have a hidden agenda. Most are single-minded and aggressive, but not athletic and clever. Leopards, more catlike, enjoy food as well as communication. Their energy is directed at themselves (a bit narcistic at times, so it seems), preservation, avoiding conflict and surviving encounters with larger animals. They are smaller and survive on account of good observations, correct deductions and clever actions. When they are surprised, they give it everything they have. That's their best chance. Trainers often seem to be more communicative, sensitive, intelligent, observative and emotional than other trainers, but also have a different agenda. They seem to be pleasers at times, but it is difficult to really communicate with them in spite of that. Tiede stated leopards could be the strongest big cats. They are difficult to assess. A bit nervous and high-strung as well as dangerous. In this respect, trainers are different in that they are able to overcome distrust, tension and danger. They have to. In spite of the social and mental qualities mentioned above, trainers often seem to keep to themselves. Elusive. All trainers thought tigers are more intelligent than other predators. Training and learning never really stops. Most are observative and playful animals willing to communicate and willing to give you a chance. You can be a tiger with them if you want, but they seem to stay in front and will test you when you don't expect it. If you want to work with them, you are obliged to show 'm you know about that. Meaning you have to change your routines every now and then. This is something most animals, and predators in particular (bears included) don't appreciate. Tigers do. They are more active and more stable than other big cats and you could reason with them. If they, however, don't like you, you have a problem. I, more than once, saw very big males kill a fly. Deliberately. Irritation. Tiger trainers don't use force, but good observations. If a tiger has a bad day, than he usually is dismisssed for the day. This is appreciated and rewarded. Tigers don't care about dominance. They are sure about themselves and care about good interacting. Friendship, meaby. If you fall short of expectations, you will be told. The trainers I interviewed were friendly, informed, communicative and intelligent. They never forced themselves on anyone and kept to themselves. Elusive yes, but in another way than leopards. It's difficult to fathom tigers. Males, one trainer said, care just as much about power as lions, but in a different way. Those with experience with different subspecies (true representatives) thought Indian tigers were quite easy to work with. Intelligent. Amurs and Sumatrans were different. The first one more relying on power (tigers know about size) and the second more single-minded and more aggressive. The one who had Indians and Amurs stated Amurs were more ferocious and stronger, but Indian tigers had more stamina and awareness. No difference in size between African lions and Indian tigers in captivity, although Indians were a trifle longer and showed more variation. Outcome of encounters unpredictable. In the end, both (animals and trainers) select themselves. If you are not aware and don't select, you can get hurt. Just like in humans. Dangerous animals and dangerous humans could be similar. Both will cross borders whenever they feel like it and they start without delay. They just don't care about you. Or anything else, for that matter. Some people and some predators are fascinated by violence and the results. Violence seems to have replaced emotions and interacting. They have a thing going with fundamentals (like life and death). Many of those I knew died well before their time. Same for extra-aggressive big cats. One day, you meet the wrong one. "
Tiger Lilly and Liberty the Lion playing @ Noahs Ark
https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10154768824230088
This photo apparently has been around for a while. Does anyone know the background on it?
 *This image is copyright of its original author (10-22-2014, 04:02 PM)'Siegfried' Wrote: This photo apparently has been around for a while. Does anyone know the background on it? Some Rescue Center....  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author Tiger Lilly and Liberty from Noahs ark ^ Usually need more than just a random picture to identify them, unless you have a link from where you got them from. To many random "sancturies" out there to know for sure. 
My FOUR cents!
In the line of the topic, I have several stories about captive big cats, some of them since I have three years old. However, there are four experiences that I would like to share with you, hope you like them: 1. The White tiger: In April of 2010, I went to a Mexican circus that came to Guatemala (forget its name). It was a "luxury" spectacle, high quality and in the main event, there was the act of the tigers. Good one, if you told me, but it is inevitable to see the fear in the eyes of some of those tigers. At the end of the show, they give the opportunity to take a picture with a white tiger at only Q80.00 (about $10.00). When the tiger comes out, I was just shocked, it was HUGE, literally huge, no less than 280 kg and about 110 cm at the shoulder, its tail was wider than my arm. It was beautiful and perfect in any sense, although a little fat, as it seems that this tiger was just for pictures (it wasn't in the act). When my turn came, I most confess that I was a little (just a bit) afraid of it, as from time to time, it turn its huge face at the people in its back and all of us were silent in the instant. I take a sit in the side of its back and when I put my arm on it, I did not even reach its belly, it was so large, and although I am tall for Central American standards (175 cm in height, with no shoes), I look puny at the side of that huge tiger. It was important to say that its hair was hard, like a brush for painting walls and the tiger itself was relative cold, not as warn as I imagined. That was one of the most important nights of my entire life and I still have that picture. I just regret that I was not able to go with my family, as it was a show just for the people of my job. 2. The warning tigress: In may of 2013, I when to another circus. This time, it was a local one and I was not to the show, just watching the cages from outside. However, in one moment, I was able to enter and I was at just three meters of the cage of the tigers! Yes, I know it was stupid, but in that moment, I was just excited to see them so close (it was the first time that I went so close of a tiger cage), apart from the white tiger, but of course, this time I did not touch them, jajajajaja [img]images/smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]. Well, the point is that they were two young specimens, maybe of two years old, but already large (maybe about 150 kg for the male and 100 kg for the female). When I approached, the male rise its head and look at me for a moment and just ignore me latter. However, the tigress, which was in the background, look at me and put herself on its belly and don't stop to look at me. At the moment, the male turn around and give me its back, but even then, the female was not calm, it just fixed its eyes to me, and began to twist her tail. Simple, she was mad and it was time to go. The entire moment was of just two minutes, at the most, and although I know that I was relative "safe", I just imagined how little security was in that place, that I was able to go so close and no one, yes, no one stooped me. Of course, I went to the first people that I saw in the place and I explain him that it was a real danger to leave the tigers in that area, as any child could reach them. The man heard me and the next day, the tigers were entered in the circus. It is interesting to note that the male was so calm, but it was the tigress that was afraid. This was the first and the last time that I put my life in such a danger.... or not? [img]images/smilies/dodgy.gif[/img] 3. The rage of the lion: Between August or September of 2013, I went to the house of my girlfriend, when in the way, it was a large field with another circus, and guess what, this time it have two adult lions. They were covered with a big cloth in two sides, but even then, several people reach the place to see them in the uncovered part of the cage. In that time, I was carrying the lunch, two servings of roast beef. So, again, I decided to take a little chance to see them, as all the people take a little look at them. This time, I was at least at six meters from them, but still I look them in all they glory. Both were calm and ignored the people, but at one moment, the people leave, so I approached a little more to see them and then, ooooooh my God!!! The male lion jumped in just a few seconds and his head was stick to the cage and I jumped too [img]images/smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]. The people that were somewhat close get scared too, but the lion did not roar. I think that the lion smelled the beef and reacted to it. I get to the house of my girlfriend with a great story, but as she hate all this type of circuses, she rejected to see them. The male was of average to large size, but with such a huge mane, it looked like a 220 kg animal, but I doubt it. This time, I swore that I wold never approach to a big cat cage in this form, and less with meat in my hands. 4. The "sad" and the "curious": This experience was so many years ago (maybe in 1999), when it was a big circus near my house. My aunty and one of my cousins, went with me to see the circus. One man salute us and take us to look the place (again, we were not to the show, just looking the place). The man show us a big python, some monkeys and the mayor attraction, a group of 15 lions! The largest female was in a separate cage with three newborn lion cubs. The man ask us if we want to see the cubs, but my aunty say no, as she was afraid of the rage of the lioness, so, we saw them just for a few seconds. They were incredible beautiful, and her mother was sleeping. Then we went to see the male lion, this was a sad part; the male was in a ridiculous small cage of maybe 1 x 2 meters and barely of more than 1.30 meters tall. The male was just making circles without control, we ask to the man why the lion do that, but he just say to us that "he is just walking, nothing bad". Of course, now I know that this is a sickness that suffer many captive animals, and this showed how little knowledge (or respect) had this people to they animals. Finally, we saw the large cage (about 15 meters long) with the rest of the pride, all females and large cubs of about 1.5 years old, as far I remember. All of them were sleeping, but one curios large male cub saw us and began to jump in our direction. It was strange, as he ignored all the other animals and only looked at us. It was a great experience to see those lions, specially the male, as we were at just 2 meter of the cage. Now, I know that it was an unnecessary risk, but at that time, it was amazing to see such an incredible animal. It is important to know that those cages are fully close, the animals could not even put out they paws. If you see the "positive" part of my stories, you can see that I could identify the characters of the animals, with the male tigers been calm, the tigress been very nervous and the lions always aggressive and curious. The "negative" part was the bad state of the lions of the last story and the few safety control with the cage of the two young tigers. I decided to share this stories with you, in order to incite other posters to share they own experiences, at least the most important ones, with the great cats. Greetings. 
Wow.. Gaute , Incredible non forgettable experience. I enjoyed your all story
Good stories Gaute, something to add on to the "cold" feeling of the Tiger.
A girl I was seeing used to live in Thailand for a few years and she went to the famous Tiger Temple or wherever they let you take the pictures of the tigers. I asked her about them and she was pretty adamant that they were drugged. They seemed groggy and out of it, very lethargic. That makes me wonder if their body temp may be lowered from the drugging. No proof, just a observation she had. It makes sense, since there is no real way to Tame any wild animal. Just look at the animals in Noahs Ark, when they are not sleeping they are always moving and investigating, makes me hard pressed to think a Lion or Tiger is just going to let you take pictures with them while they don't move a muscle unless they are drugged. Let me know what you think about it.
Mmmm, I don’t think so. The tiger was not sleeping, it was fully aware of the situation. He just liked his paws and when someone touched it, he looked back or moved it huge tail. Interestingly, when I touched his back, he ignored me until I rose from the place. Its eyes were calm with its pupil very close and after that, he returned to lick its paws.
I think this is the same case that the tigers at the Tiger Island in Dreamworld. Those tigers are not drugged, but fully aware of all. The case of the tigers in Thailand is different, as those poor specimens are always somnolent and it is impossible for the monks to control all those tigers. If you ask me, the Tiger Temple is a bomb waiting to explode, I don’t support it. |
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