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Zoos, Circuses, Safaris: A Gallery of Captivity
Zoos, Circuses, Safaris: A Gallery of Captivity
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Zoos, Circuses, Safaris: A Gallery of Captivity
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 (09-10-2016, 05:56 AM)Blackleopard Wrote: Do you have the thread link to the verified captive weights of tigers and lions? I realize that a 570 lb cat is is on the larger size, and many of the largest siberians that are not obese generally top out around 600. But the statement is that the lion Asland is the heaviest lion in Europe, my point is based on what? He would not be the heaviest lion in the United States, why would he be the heaviest in Europe? Asland is simply a lion who happened to outweigh a tiger of similar size, which is what I was wondering. Dont use double standards here. You just used an isolated London zoo incident just to prove lions have stronger canines. Well science doesnt work like that, as per the canine morphology studies, Ive shown you one of the latest studies with a large sample size and several subspecies involved.  *This image is copyright of its original author The results are clear, tigers have the highest bitefore, strongest and biggest (longer, thicker and heavier) canines of all bigcats period. Now stop going around in circles and here is the link for the studies. http://snowleopardnetwork.org/bibliograp...n_2007.pdf What Grizzlyclaws did was to try and show you the difference between the canines. You can see tons of pictures posted on Bigcats canines and claws thread by Grizzlyclaws. 
And the canines grizzly showed are from a south China Tiger as well.
@ Jaipur was confirmed and is in Guinness, tigers are larger than lions, they have exceeded 600lbs in captivity and more, so have lions, but tigers still hold the record. The best looking 600+lbers I have seen are from eagleraptor, those male tigers were perfect, not obese like Jaipur.  (09-10-2016, 10:28 PM)Apollo Wrote:(09-10-2016, 05:56 AM)Blackleopard Wrote: Do you have the thread link to the verified captive weights of tigers and lions? I realize that a 570 lb cat is is on the larger size, and many of the largest siberians that are not obese generally top out around 600. But the statement is that the lion Asland is the heaviest lion in Europe, my point is based on what? He would not be the heaviest lion in the United States, why would he be the heaviest in Europe? Asland is simply a lion who happened to outweigh a tiger of similar size, which is what I was wondering. I was actually more interested in the captive weights, but couldn't find any on this site yet. As for the teeth, I can only tell you what I saw, and there was data and real studies showing lions having stronger teeth, it wasn't one isolated study. The health of the animals also can impact their teeth, many unhealthy lions are strolling around in out of prides and have trouble hunting on their own. I looked through some of the data on that study you showed, some of the data is saying the tigers teeth are thicker, some of it is saying the teeth are over all virtually the same with almost no difference in mm. I guess my question to you, doesn't skull size impact the size of teeth, there are many lions with larger skulls than tigers, unless you're talking about the captive Siberians. Do you really believe a lion with a bigger head is going to have weaker teeth, and a weaker bite-force than the smaller head of the tiger? It is well known that lions often hunt larger prey, whether in groups or pairs, they're still tackling the larger animals. That means it takes longer to down the larger animal, so many minutes are spent with a male lion sinking his teeth into a 2 thousand lb buffalo, the buffalo's weight is being thrust back and forth against the male lions teeth and jaws. A tiger's teeth and jaws rarely ever have to endure such a prolonged resistance against them. Then you have to factor in the male lions fighting more, with both jaws battling it out significantly throughout their lives. How often does the tiger ever have to endure the kind of resistance an and adversarial 1,000 lb bite-force ripping against its own jaws? 
The tiger skull is overall shorter, but it is more reinforced in the muzzle part in order to host a larger pair of canine teeth.
The lion skull is built a bit differently, and it is more focused on the rear part. If the two cats got the skull in comparable length, the tiger canine teeth are indeed significantly larger. Based on the maximum value so far, the magnitude of the male Amurs' fang is only rivalled by those Northern/Central male Bengals. Amur tiger got straighter fangs, while Bengal tiger got a slightly more curved one.
09-11-2016, 10:12 AM
( This post was last modified: 09-11-2016, 10:20 AM by Blackleopard
Edit Reason: add pics
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(09-11-2016, 03:44 AM)GrizzlyClaws Wrote: The tiger skull is overall shorter, but it is more reinforced in the muzzle part in order to host a larger pair of canine teeth. Ive seen some huge tigers, and I agree, the captive Siberian mixed tigers have huge heads, their very large. Their paws are huge, thicker. The arms seem thicker. But at the same time, Ive seen lions that are much stronger in the frame, and I'm sure its not the mane, the shoulders seem larger, at times the bodies can almost look chunky, Ive posted some a few lions in Manuel Farina's circus showing this. The tigers almost never look like that, actually Ive never seen one. If even a thin skinny lion, or lanky tiger can have incredible strength, how much stronger would a very thick stout Bigcat be, I think that's an interesting question? Because the strength may be tremendous. In pulling contest I saw a post where the trainers play games with Bigcats pulling the rope with food attached. The trainer stated, the lions have more strength than the tigers. As far as the skulls, I agree the tigers have to have wider heads at the mussel area, sometimes even the big Siberians have a wider forehead from what Ive seen, but that 's difficult as the mane often covers that part. But I will say this, while Ive seen that, Ive also seen lions that seem to have yes the longer head, but also the wider head in other areas. Ive seen this huge Timbavati white lion, over 600 lbs, verified, close up, through the glass, the head was wider than most any tiger at the eye area, its eyes were placed very far apart, it almost looks strange, and I think you see that in nature shows, sometimes these big Kruger lion heads are very flat, long, yet really wide in the eye and cheek bone area. The bit force has to be comparable to the largest tiger heads with that kind of length and width at the eyes and cheek bones.
Good analogy, but I am still looking for any big lion canine tooth to beat tiger canine tooth's benchmark via many online private collectors.
Unfortunately, tiger canine tooth still holds the crown in all areas.  (09-10-2016, 08:36 PM)Blackleopard Wrote: That pic of Handsome of the lion is when he was younger, he wasn't full grown yet, which is why the mane isn't as large as what you see in later pics.It seems that 570 lbs is the limit for non obese lion. Im not sure if Aslan is the heaviest lion in Europe, but he is definitely one of the heaviest (talking about non obese animals). Tigers are larger and their limit is probably somewhere around 650 lbs (such tigers are really very rare). The average for captive amurs is around 470 lbs. Jaipur is obviously an obese specimen. (09-11-2016, 01:27 AM)Blackleopard Wrote:(09-10-2016, 10:28 PM)Apollo Wrote:(09-10-2016, 05:56 AM)Blackleopard Wrote: Do you have the thread link to the verified captive weights of tigers and lions? I realize that a 570 lb cat is is on the larger size, and many of the largest siberians that are not obese generally top out around 600. But the statement is that the lion Asland is the heaviest lion in Europe, my point is based on what? He would not be the heaviest lion in the United States, why would he be the heaviest in Europe? Asland is simply a lion who happened to outweigh a tiger of similar size, which is what I was wondering. From your posts I can see you love lions. Lions are great animals but trying prove that lions are superior by falsely undermining tigers is a fanatical stupid thing to do. Such behaviours are not accepted or tolerated here in this forum. Your arguments are so silly and stupid. You say that lions have bigger head and hence it should have bigger canines. lol Its like saying tigers are bigger animals than lions hence it should have much longer head. You see this is how fanatics will argue. I like to see your scientific studies which proves lions have longer and bigger canines than tigers. There are several non reliable studies which as only one sample per species, comparing male and female of different species etc When it comes to skull morphology, you can learn alot from Grizzlyclaws, Peter and Tigerluver. But inorder to learn you have to come out of this fanatical mindset. In general lions have longer skulls than tigers. In general tiger skulls are heavier and wider than lion skulls at equal length. Lion, Jaguar, Leopard belong to one clade and tiger, snowleopard belong to one clade Tiger skulls are more reinforced at the muzzle. Tiger skulls are more specialized in housing larger canines. Tigers have the biggest (longer, robust and heavier) canines of all bigcats. Even the small sumatran tigers have canines like lions, now imagine how big would be Amur, Bengal canines. All reliable modern studies point to tigers having the highest biteforce. The reasons for this difference could be many. The author of the study i showed you also explained the reasons for tiger's bigger canines. I personally feel the pride life system of lions could play a part. Lions hunt in groups when bringing down large prey, so more jaws on one prey animal. Tigers hunt alone so bigger canines and more powerful bite can help to subdue prey faster. A powerful canine housing system of the tigers may help to withstand higher pressure exerted during a hunt due to its solitary life style. 
Prime, ehh, I mean Blackleopard will continue on lions and tigers in the thread about animal trainers from now on. Posts from leopards in this thread and in the Gir lion thread will be deleted.
I told him he's close to deletion himself, so he will try to keep it civilised in the thread about animal trainers. No more posts about superiority, lions, tigers and the inevitable fights, that is. But he can try a detour if he respects the rules. Problem solved. Continue with the gallery. I liked many of the pictures, Amnon. Good work and nice observations. 
@Apollo:
About #502: You say : "I personally feel the pride life system of lions could play a part. Lions hunt in groups when bringing down large prey, so more jaws on one prey animal. Tigers hunt alone so bigger canines and more powerful bite can help to subdue prey faster. A powerful canine housing system of the tigers may help to withstand higher pressure exerted during a hunt due to its solitary life style. " Quite agree with you. Indeed the tiger has the most powerful bite and the bigger canines, but not by far. After checking: Tiger's biteforce = Lion's biteforce (1 + 0,1) Tiger's biggers canines = Lion's biggers canines (1 + 0,1). i.e 10% stronger biteforce, 10% bigger canines. After all, in order to repeat your argument, a lone lion is also able to bring down a big prey by himself.
@Spalea
The lion canine is powerful, it is indeed capable to bring down the big prey by itself. But some tiger canines are just overkill, it is strong in a ridiculous way. This pantherine species seems to have invested more in the canine area in its evolutionary path. As for the claws, it is almost identical for the largest lion and largest tiger. (09-11-2016, 05:25 PM)peter Wrote: Prime, ehh, I mean Blackleopard will continue on lions and tigers in the thread about animal trainers from now on. Posts from leopards in this thread and in the Gir lion thread will be deleted. No I'm not Prime, and I can assure you of that. I'm educated at Lesley college, and from New Hampshire. I have many pictures of Bigcats taken, I actually am trying to post them but the files are to large to put up, so I might have to screen cap them into a lower resolution to upload. No one else can post the pictures I have, because they are only mine. I can post pics of many large tigers Ive seen, I have properties and family in different parts of the States, and Ive visited different places on vacations. (09-11-2016, 05:25 PM)peter Wrote: Prime, ehh, I mean Blackleopard will continue on lions and tigers in the thread about animal trainers from now on. Posts from leopards in this thread and in the Gir lion thread will be deleted. Thank You Peter! BTW I thought that Blackleopard is in fact one of "well known" posters from AVA. His posts in Asiatic Lions thread were clearly in the style of some "fans". Sad thing is that immature and/or mentally disturbed individuals can undermine the effort of good posters who want to have Wildfact as a serious forum for knowledgeable people. The anonymity of internet and existence of people with psychopatic characteristics really requires strict moderation.
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It is good if you are not him, but we just hope you can stop breaching the rule of this community. Since we don't want the ambiance of this community to be once again ruined by those lion vs tiger stuffs. Hopefully you can be comprehensive with our policy. |
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