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Poll: Who is the largest tiger?
Amur tiger
Bengal tiger
They are equal
[Show Results]
 
 
  • 3 Vote(s) - 3.33 Average
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Who is the "king" of tigers? - Bengal or Amur

GuateGojira Offline
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( This post was last modified: 07-29-2019, 10:51 PM by GuateGojira )

(07-29-2019, 10:36 PM)peter Wrote: Excellent work! Contact Tigerluver for the two missing documents, as he graduated in biology and should have access to most scientific publications. If he's out, contact Sunquist. My guess is he's willing to help out.

Good idea! @tigerluver are you abble to reach these documents, by chance?

* Smith, J. L. D. 1984. Dispersal, communication and conservation strategies for the tiger (Panthera tigris) in Royal Chitwan National Park, Nepal. Ph.D. thesis. University of Minnesota, St. Paul.

* Sunquist, M. E. 1979. The movements and activities of tigers (Panthera tigris tigris) in Royal Chitawan National Park, Nepal. Ph.D. Dissertation. University of Minnesota, Minneapolis, Minnesota. 170 pp.

The first one is the most important, to be honest.

I will also contact Dr Sunquist, let's see if maybe he have digital copies of those documents.

Belive me, if we found these two documents, we will cover all the investigation of the tigers in Chitwann NP!!! shocked
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United States tigerluver Offline
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Dissertations are very hard to find as online copies and I currently can find where the dissertation texts are sitting in a library but no scans. Smith (1993) which is the official publication of the content of the first dissertation requested is attached, however.

Attached Files
.pdf   jldsmith1993.pdf (Size: 811.7 KB / Downloads: 18)
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Indonesia P.T.Sondaica Offline
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Even in smaller size than bengal Amur still have bigger Skull than bengal?
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GuateGojira Offline
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(07-30-2019, 10:10 AM)P.T.Sondaica Wrote: Even in smaller size than bengal Amur still have bigger Skull than bengal?

In fact, the evidence is not quite clear. Based in Mazák, Amur tigers have slightly larger skulls, but the diference is just about 1 cm. In hunting records, both have reached the c.400 mm in skull length.

So, I will say that they skull sizes are about the same, but overall the Amur tiger skulls are more wider and a overall massive construction.
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GuateGojira Offline
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Update: capture numbers and table of Smith et al., 1983.

Sorry for the contant change, but I made some updates in the table of the description of the 26 tigers of Chitwan NP. This is based in that fact that I made a comparision with the number of captures that I found and those of the tiger of Smith et al., (1983). This is the original table:

*This image is copyright of its original author


Here we can see the number of the sample and I found that actually the number of the subadult females and subadult males do not represent recaptures but the real number of animals captured. Check this:

Cubs: Table says "7" but we only know one (F103 with 52 kg).
All those need to be taken as "recaptures". I will explain that latter in the table.

Subadult females: table says "4", specimens captured is also four (103, 111, 118 and 122).
* Based in the figures we can reconstruct the four weights of that sample: 98, 114, 143 and 145.
* From these we know that F103 weighed 114 kg at 18 months old. The other three weights belong to the other three females, but we don't know which belong to who, so I will leave it like that.
* The figures in the table are especific weights, not number of captures.

Subadult males: table says "12", specimens captures is also 12 (104, 110, 112, 114, 116, 117, 119, 120, 121, 123, 124 and 125). 
* We only know the especific weight of one of them: M104 with 159 kg. We don't know the weight of the others but I speculate that the highest weight (216 kg) is probably of the oldest of them M123.
* None of them was captured as adult before 1980, and if one of them was captured after 1980 as adult, is not included in the table.
* The figures in the table are especific weights, not number of captures.

Adult males: table says "7", but we know that only three were captured before 1980 (102, 105 and 126).
* We speculate that M105 (Sauraha male) was captured 4 times. M126 was captured also 2 times, but only once before 1980, so we can conclude that from 3 males we know 6 captures and we hypotesize, based on facts, that male M105 was captured one more time between 1976 and 1979.
* The figures in the table are number of captures, not especific weights.

Adult females: table says "19", but we know that there were only seven original females (101, 106, 107, 108, 109, 113 and 115) and the other four subadults females were surelly captured latter as adults (103, 111, 118 and 122). So is a total of 11 adult females. 
* However, on the last four females, we need to see that those animales were probably not entirely "adults". In fact if we see the description of Tamang (1982) in page 64, he says that F103 was clasified as "adult" when she had only 30 months old, which is about 2.5 years, which is less than the "over 3 years old" = "over 36 months old" normally used to clasify a tiger as an "adult". This means that the figure of "140 kg" as an average in Smith et al. (1983) is an underestimation because of the inclusion of specimens not yet "adults".
* Knowing the number of real captures of the adult females 101 (3) -106 (2) -107 (2) - 108 (1) -109 (1) and tigerss 103 as "adult", we have a number of captures of 10. Latter I can say that I am sure that the other three subadult females 111-118-122 were captured as adults (specially F118 which was weighed as adult after been euthanized). So we have 10 known captures plus the other 3 captures of the "new" tigresses as adults, we have a figure of 13 known captures. Let's add the females 113-115 which were captured at least once, we have a total of 15 known captures. So, where are the other 4 captures? We can only speculate but certainly it seems that the original females, especifically 109-113-115 and 103, were captured at least one more time, giving a total of 19 captures.
* The figures in the table are number of captures, not especific weights.

So, using only known animales, with the biggest weight known, the table should be like this:

*This image is copyright of its original author


* This use only the original weights, not adjusted.
* Also we use only use the known weights of the females (5 females of the original 7) which ignore the weights of the adult females 113-115 and includes the weights of the "new" adults females 103-118. 
* The section of the males use the figure of "261 kg" for the males M105 and M126. Using the real weights of" 272 kg+" for these large males the average for the males is of 237 kg.
* The sample of males says "4", but is because it includes the male "Banga Bhale", so that is why the total gives 27 instead of 26.
* Cubs should be taken as recaptures, as those 7 animales were 100% surelly weighed latter as subadults. However we only know F103 of that sample.


I think that, for the moment, this sumarize the information about body mass of the tigers in Chitwan NP, captured from 1973 to 1980, plus two males captures in or before 1984. This is the update of the table in post 430:

*This image is copyright of its original author



Erase the old one, keep this new one. I did not updated it in the post 430 because as I infer that the reader will know how the investigation had evolved until now and will need to read all my post to get the idea.


Greetings to all. Happy
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United States Pckts Offline
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Just 1 single captivity account, nothing more, nothing less.

Siberian tiger killed in fight to the death with big cat ‘pal’ at Chinese zoo
Keepers tried to separate the beasts but were unable to stop younger rival delivering fatal bite to his victim’s throat

*This image is copyright of its original author


*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author


A woman looks at a tiger at a zoo in China. Photo: Handout



A Siberian tiger was killed on Sunday after being attacked by a Bengal tiger with which it shared an enclosure at a zoo in southwestern China, local media reported.
The deadly encounter happened about 10:40am on Sunday morning at Kunming Zoo in Yunnan province, news portal Yunnan.cn reported on Tuesday.


*This image is copyright of its original author

The body of the slain Siberian tiger lies in its enclosure at Kunming Zoo in Yunnan province. Photo: Handout
The victim was an 18-year-old Siberian tiger named Maomao, while his attacker was a 14-year-old Bengal tiger called Xiaohu, the report said.
Yang Ge, director of the zoo’s animal management department, said that the big cats knew each other well and regularly scuffled, but had never before got into a serious fight.
“There were some minor conflicts between them.” Yang was quoted as saying. “They sometimes bit each other, but only in a playful manner, and nothing serious.”

Keepers at the zoo witnessed the attack and tried to separate the big cats, but were unable to save Maomao, the report said.

“Xiaohu was younger and stronger, but we never thought he would launch a lethal attack,” Yang said, adding that Xiaohu dispatched his rival with a bite to the throat, which would have caused suffocation.

The whole thing was over in about a minute, the report said.

The zoo said it would report the incident to the local forestry authority and process Maomao’s body according to the regulations.
https://www.scmp.com/news/china/society/article/2106286/siberian-tiger-killed-fight-death-big-cat-pal-chinese-zoo
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BorneanTiger Offline
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(10-08-2019, 10:20 PM)Pckts Wrote: Just 1 single captivity account, nothing more, nothing less.

Siberian tiger killed in fight to the death with big cat ‘pal’ at Chinese zoo
Keepers tried to separate the beasts but were unable to stop younger rival delivering fatal bite to his victim’s throat

*This image is copyright of its original author


*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author


A woman looks at a tiger at a zoo in China. Photo: Handout



A Siberian tiger was killed on Sunday after being attacked by a Bengal tiger with which it shared an enclosure at a zoo in southwestern China, local media reported.
The deadly encounter happened about 10:40am on Sunday morning at Kunming Zoo in Yunnan province, news portal Yunnan.cn reported on Tuesday.


*This image is copyright of its original author

The body of the slain Siberian tiger lies in its enclosure at Kunming Zoo in Yunnan province. Photo: Handout
The victim was an 18-year-old Siberian tiger named Maomao, while his attacker was a 14-year-old Bengal tiger called Xiaohu, the report said.
Yang Ge, director of the zoo’s animal management department, said that the big cats knew each other well and regularly scuffled, but had never before got into a serious fight.
“There were some minor conflicts between them.” Yang was quoted as saying. “They sometimes bit each other, but only in a playful manner, and nothing serious.”

Keepers at the zoo witnessed the attack and tried to separate the big cats, but were unable to save Maomao, the report said.

“Xiaohu was younger and stronger, but we never thought he would launch a lethal attack,” Yang said, adding that Xiaohu dispatched his rival with a bite to the throat, which would have caused suffocation.

The whole thing was over in about a minute, the report said.

The zoo said it would report the incident to the local forestry authority and process Maomao’s body according to the regulations.
https://www.scmp.com/news/china/society/article/2106286/siberian-tiger-killed-fight-death-big-cat-pal-chinese-zoo

I know this case from 2017:




It was the second case of a Bengal tiger dominating a Siberian tiger that I saw on video (another one being a non-fatal fight at Everland, I think), and one of those cases of fights or fatal incidents between different subspecies or types of tigers, the other non-fatal ones being:

Amur tiger vs 2 Bengal tigresses, video from 2009:




Amur tiger using its size and strength to dominate a Bengal tiger, video from 2010:




White tiger dominates Sumatran tiger, video from 2012:




Additionally, in 2017, 2 normal Bengal tigers fought with 2 white tigers and killed one of them at a fenced area of Bannerghata National Park, India: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article...tiger.html



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Malaysia johnny rex Offline
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(10-08-2019, 10:20 PM)Pckts Wrote: Just 1 single captivity account, nothing more, nothing less.

Siberian tiger killed in fight to the death with big cat ‘pal’ at Chinese zoo
Keepers tried to separate the beasts but were unable to stop younger rival delivering fatal bite to his victim’s throat

*This image is copyright of its original author


*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author


A woman looks at a tiger at a zoo in China. Photo: Handout



A Siberian tiger was killed on Sunday after being attacked by a Bengal tiger with which it shared an enclosure at a zoo in southwestern China, local media reported.
The deadly encounter happened about 10:40am on Sunday morning at Kunming Zoo in Yunnan province, news portal Yunnan.cn reported on Tuesday.


*This image is copyright of its original author

The body of the slain Siberian tiger lies in its enclosure at Kunming Zoo in Yunnan province. Photo: Handout
The victim was an 18-year-old Siberian tiger named Maomao, while his attacker was a 14-year-old Bengal tiger called Xiaohu, the report said.
Yang Ge, director of the zoo’s animal management department, said that the big cats knew each other well and regularly scuffled, but had never before got into a serious fight.
“There were some minor conflicts between them.” Yang was quoted as saying. “They sometimes bit each other, but only in a playful manner, and nothing serious.”

Keepers at the zoo witnessed the attack and tried to separate the big cats, but were unable to save Maomao, the report said.

“Xiaohu was younger and stronger, but we never thought he would launch a lethal attack,” Yang said, adding that Xiaohu dispatched his rival with a bite to the throat, which would have caused suffocation.

The whole thing was over in about a minute, the report said.

The zoo said it would report the incident to the local forestry authority and process Maomao’s body according to the regulations.
https://www.scmp.com/news/china/society/article/2106286/siberian-tiger-killed-fight-death-big-cat-pal-chinese-zoo

I wonder which one is the bigger individual.
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Malaysia johnny rex Offline
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Not sure if the other tiger is really a Bengal tiger. But if it is indeed a Bengal tiger, we can see a nice comparison between a male Bengal tiger and a male Siberian tiger. The male Siberian tiger got a bigger skull than the Bengal, despite both having the same shoulder height.
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United States Pckts Offline
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( This post was last modified: 10-09-2019, 07:02 PM by Pckts )

Most likely Amurs in Everland then the White Bengal Tigers
https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-24117279

The headline on that video was created by fans not the zoo.
The Lions there were Africans as well and I remember others claiming they were asiatics.
Any of those fan made videos have no credible claims, they're used as "evidence" by someone to claim superiority of their favorite animal.
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Germany Hello Offline
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To me, in captivity Amurs and in wild Bengals.In most Indian zoos purebred Bengals are abundant and are small compared to wild ones in terms of shoulder height, length and weight.Most I've seen in zoos were 380-400 lbs (estimate). Amurs are on average 480-500 lbs and are taller in captivity according to @peter and old AVA poster Eagleraptor with some reaching 600 lbs.In wild, Bengals have an advantage in weight,length and shoulder height.
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Germany Hello Offline
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The best 600 lb amur I've seen.Not fat or lean.Giant framed cat



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GuateGojira Offline
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NEW comparative images:

Ok ladies and gentlemen, I have created my new base for comparative images, which means that new images are coming again!!!

For example, check the new comparative image of the largest tiger subspecies/populations:

*This image is copyright of its original author


As you can see, I improved the amount of information and it has more details. Also, like I said before, the excalation of the animals look smaller in comparison to the old images because this time I used skeletons to scalate the animals. I will try to remake the old images with this format, begining with the lions, and obviously will create new images from new animals.

Hope you like it, save it for future references.

Greetings to all.
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GuateGojira Offline
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New comparative image of all the tiger subspecies/populations:


*This image is copyright of its original author


For details see this link, post 2434: https://wildfact.com/forum/topic-on-the-...s?page=163

I put it here because I have many data on size in this topic, but some of that information needs to be updated.

Greetings to all.
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Brazil strana Offline
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(03-10-2020, 10:26 PM)GuateGojira Wrote: New comparative image of all the tiger subspecies/populations:


*This image is copyright of its original author


For details see this link, post 2434: https://wildfact.com/forum/topic-on-the-...s?page=163

I put it here because I have many data on size in this topic, but some of that information needs to be updated.

Greetings to all.

Guate,
First, thanks for another very interesting material.
However, I think that the size of modern Amur tigers are underestimated. There are some pics of very impressive wild tigers in Russia here in Wildfact; I would not be surprised if some of them reach 250 kg+. I believe only the young/not very healthy are weighted. Wild Bengals and Amur might have similar size, but ok, it is just speculation.
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