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Tigers have good endurance?

Finland Shadow Offline
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( This post was last modified: 05-02-2019, 06:11 PM by Shadow )

(05-02-2019, 03:30 PM)Sanju Wrote:
(05-02-2019, 03:17 PM)Rage2277 Wrote: shadow has a point,many people actually think amurs average 300kgs it's kind of insane the same is being said for atlas lions..
I know many think like that due to lack of knowledge and bias or fanaticism.
(05-02-2019, 03:17 PM)Rage2277 Wrote: i hate these vids,they're so bad..
Most videos are misleading BUT THIS VIDEO DON'T COME UNDER THAT CATEGORY. They just said "up-to", no where near pronunciation of "usually or routinely". Nothing wrong.
(05-02-2019, 03:16 PM)Spalea Wrote: Danielle Dufault is a very good graphic designer, and not a biologist and she is young therefore very enthusiastic !
She is not a biologist but enthusiastic to show her talent and skill of art work by hosting in the you tube channel show like I said before but the crew has biology experts who design the script. Pls don't misunderstand and involve her in this.

Again they said only "upto" if anyone who (those younger people) see the video think tigers usually weigh 300 kg, then they can be considered as deaf.

I don't know why this discussion is prolonging when there is nothing to discuss whether relevant or irrelevant to the smedz thread topic.

I gave that weight only as an example about it, that why this kind of videos can be seen in different ways, it wasn´t meant to start a weight discussion. I gave some criticism and one example about it how that video can give wrong impressions, because based on this video smedz had a question. And what comes to that question he had, claim on that video was also quite strong about a bit controversial matter, imo. I would have loved to hear to what she based that claim, that tigers would be big cats with most endurance and able to chase prey longer than others. I don´t know if that is true or false, but when saying it so clearly, then also some reasoning would be good to have. 

So no, that weight is not relevant alone, but it was an example to explain, why I said, that it is good to be careful with information told in that video. And same thing with many other videos in youtube. Nowadays so many channels provide content which looks like professionally made and then total nonsense. This video now was quite ok in many ways, but also then again not too... hmmm... well, I wouldn´t call it quality documentary overall. 

But what comes to question Smedz asked, that is interesting and I am not sure, that we heard on video well studied and undeniable fact, but one hypothesis and I also would like to know to what it is based on? Or is that commonly agreed fact which I and some others have missed for some reason?
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India Sanju Offline
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( This post was last modified: 05-02-2019, 06:02 PM by Sanju )

@Shadow Agreed.

Regarding smedz question, @Spalea answer is apt imo.

Quote:@Spalea 

@smedz : tigers are mainly ambush hunters. Because deep jungle is the best biotop for this kind of hunting, but that doesn't change the fact they are able to produce a longer physical effort if they have to do it... Lions in the tall grass are ambush hunters too. If the grass is short, they have to run more, much more. And if you compare their morphologies, tigers being squater and lions more ascetic you can conclude that they (lions) are more used to hunt over longer distance (over 100 meters and more). But once again, it doesn't stop the tiger to do that if they have to...

But if you want to compare them with canids which are able to chase their preys over several kilometers, felids aren't at all hunters over long distances, for sure. Everything is relative.
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Switzerland Spalea Offline
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@Sanju :

About #14: you told:

" She is not a biologist but enthusiastic to show her talent and skill of art work by hosting in the you tube channel show like I said before but the crew has biology experts who design the script. Pls don't misunderstand and involve her in this.


Again they said only "upto" if anyone who (those younger people) see the video think tigers usually weigh 300 kg, then they can be considered as deaf."

I confess not to look at his video. OK she is working with a biologist within the crew, and I admired the ceratopsian's head she realised, but when I after started to listen to the video, I instantly stopped it. She hasn't an adult's voice. But the fault, that @Shadow denounced, is a very current one (to only memorize the extreme cases which so become common) among young persons like her and I answered because of that.
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India Sanju Offline
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( This post was last modified: 05-02-2019, 06:53 PM by Sanju )

(05-02-2019, 06:36 PM)Spalea Wrote: But the fault, that @Shadow denounced, is a very current one (to only memorize the extreme cases which so become common) among young persons like her and I answered because of that.
So ? it's the fault of those young persons to memories only the extremes not youtube video/wiki/any other website/blog to address weight "range" of a species. Anyway its irrelevant here about species weight and people's memorizing abilities here. smedz asked, you answered, I appreciated. over. Of course, you can take more regarding he thread's topic and anyone can express opinion.
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Switzerland Spalea Offline
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(05-02-2019, 06:47 PM)Sanju Wrote:
(05-02-2019, 06:36 PM)Spalea Wrote: But the fault, that @Shadow denounced, is a very current one (to only memorize the extreme cases which so become common) among young persons like her and I answered because of that.
So ? it's the fault of those young persons to memories only the extremes not youtube video/wiki/any other website/blog to address weight "range" of a species. Anyway its irrelevant here about species weight and people's memorizing abilities here.

I don't know where the problem is... The youtube video mentions an extreme case. The young and very enthusiastic viewer only retains the extreme figure - for exemple a 300-kilos tiger - and in turn when he will speak about about tiger, he will say that they weigh 300 kilos. 300 kilos becoming an average. The video failure is perhaps not to enough mention that the tigers can weigh up 300 kilos, 200 kilos being much more common. The viewer's fault to retain only 300 kilos as tiger's weight.
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India Sanju Offline
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( This post was last modified: 05-02-2019, 07:15 PM by Sanju )

@Spalea . I don't see any problem in the video except not mentioning average weight of tiger. They only said they they can be upto 300 kg. That is not their fault either for not mentioning the average coz there is no rule to describe that "must and should" as most people know that if they are really interested in tigers, instead they focused to narrate more interesting things about tigers.

don't know why tiger weight is bothering in this thread to keep focus on it and people's misconception and memorization (tigers fans exaggerate amur, jaguar fans-pantanal and lion fans exaggerate barbary)- we can't do anything for that.. everybody knows here that amurs avg 200 kg these days and Bengals slightly avg more.

again saying let's don't deviate from main intent of thread. :)
When Need turns to Greed, our Extinction happens.
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Finland Shadow Offline
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(05-02-2019, 07:13 PM)Sanju Wrote: @Spalea . I don't see any problem in the video except not mentioning average weight of tiger. They only said they they can be upto 300 kg. That is not their fault either for not mentioning the average coz there is no rule to describe that "must and should" as most people know that if they are really interested in tigers, instead they focused to narrate more interesting things about tigers.

don't know why tiger weight is bothering in this thread to keep focus on it and people's misconception and memorization (tigers fans exaggerate amur, jaguar fans-pantanal and lion fans exaggerate barbary)- we can't do anything for that.. everybody knows here that amurs avg 200 kg these days and Bengals slightly avg more.

again saying let's don't deviate from main intent of thread. :)
It wasn´t only weight, that was only one example. She said many controversial things only from one side.

That is why I said, that good video to get kids interested about animals and/or maybe also older who aren´t so interested about wildlife and conservation. But for people, who are interested really and seeking good and valid information, that video was quite meaningless. So it depends about point of view how you look at this matter :) I didn´t mean that all young people are retarded or something, it was more an expression for something what I don´t take so seriously as source of information when wanting to study some animal.
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India Sanju Offline
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( This post was last modified: 05-02-2019, 07:34 PM by Sanju )

@Shadow I never said wildlifers see such vidoes. Some random average joes will see them to know some basic facts and info about them. ok enough discussion about that. lets leave it.
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India Sanju Offline
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( This post was last modified: 05-02-2019, 09:16 PM by Sanju )

@smedz

*This image is copyright of its original author

Tigers like all other cats don't have much endurance in sprinting long distances. Rather, they have very good endurance and unique abilities in swimming unlike others. Tigers can cross rivers up to 7 km (4.3 mi) wide and can swim up to 29 km (18 mi) distances in a day. Most Aquatic big cat other than Jaguar.

Constant and Persistently, a tiger can swim much longer distance than jaguar relatively. Jaguar might have the strongest bite force of all extant cats pound for pound but stronger muscles of tiger with large paws helps it to stay in water drifting at steady pace for longer distance efficiently due to relatively longer body posture to propel unlike jaguar heavy, short and stocky posture.

Novak, R. M.; Walker, E. P. (1999). "Panthera tigris (tiger)".

The jaguar generally roams on the banks of the mighty Amazon in South America and mostly will stay swimming in surrounding fresh water bodies like rivers and streams, but tiger on the other hand swims in open sea, lakes and rivers. Tiger might be the better swimmer but in "hunting in water" department though, jaguar takes the edge as better aquatic hunter for obvious reasons need not to be mentioned, I'm not degrading tiger hunting skills in water-so don't get offended, tiger too is a good hunter in water.

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

Tiger even kill fisherman on boats sometimes.
The best living extant example is our sundarbans tiger during their dispersal between islets of the mangrove Gangetic delta in Bay of Bengal. Sumatran tigers have been recorded to swim in the open sea from an island to another. Some others notable worth mentions which are well known hunting in water bodies are our ranthambore, corbett and north east tigers (kazi and manas). So, I hope this could help to your question.

*This image is copyright of its original author


*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-29987187

*This image is copyright of its original author

swimming in the open sea
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Finland Shadow Offline
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( This post was last modified: 05-17-2019, 12:51 AM by Shadow )

So you @smedz modified my reputation downwards because I wrote to this thread. I am sorry if you feel, that certain threads are owned by you and only certain kind of opinions and conclusions are allowed.

Next time just put to start, that only such postings are ok, where everyone agree, that tiger is superior big cat, what comes to endurance. Still I don´t think, that this forum is meant to be such, that postings with reasoning are banned. So if you want to modify my reputation because I question something, which I feel that is controversial, feel free to take it all out, I don´t mind :)
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India sanjay Offline
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Calm down, Some light debate is inevitable on a public forum. But showing professionalism and manner all depends on individuals. You two can better handle the situation
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Finland Shadow Offline
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( This post was last modified: 05-17-2019, 12:52 PM by Shadow )

(05-17-2019, 07:29 AM)sanjay Wrote: Calm down, Some light debate is inevitable on a public forum. But showing professionalism and manner all depends on individuals. You two can better handle the situation

I hope, that no-one is upset :) But I respect debate, not certain other actions. Taking out reputation if someone writes total nonsense is one thing. But when writing some opinion with reasoning, if disagreeing it would be nice to read criticism openly here right away. Open discussion is the thing what for instance I am seeking here. If something I write looks like odd to someone, I don´t mind if saying it and telling why. That is the way to handle things which I respect.
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Netherlands peter Offline
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( This post was last modified: 05-17-2019, 05:51 PM by peter )

(05-02-2019, 04:34 AM)smedz Wrote: I was watching an episode from Animalogic on tigers, and the host says that unlike other cats, tigers have pretty good endurance which allows them to chase prey longer than other cats. I always thought tigers had terrible endurance. Is what this person says true? 

@Pckts @Spalea  @Pantherinae  @parvez @Sanju @Rishi @GuateGojira    






1 - How to use reliable info to get to misinformation 

Nearly everything presented in the video is based on research. This means it, informationwise, should be solid. It isn't. How possible? The answer is selection. Only highlights were selected. 

Is it possible to completely crap a video by selecting highlights only? No problem. 

Example. 

Let's assume I have to do a video on humans for aliens. One that has to attract attention. I'll start by saying humans can grow to 7 feet in length and 600 pounds in weight. That would not be incorrect. If I add they can swim twenty miles in open water in one go, climb enormous mountains in a few days and survive fights with impressive carnivores, I would still be quite safe. If I, to wind up the concert, conclude the video by saying they can produce machines to explore the globe in a few hours and even change the climate, I'd still not be cheating. In spite of all that, I would have produced a 10-minute video loaded with crap. More than enough to qualify for serious treatment, most would say. 

Freedom of thought and speech have advantages, but not all the time. 

2 - Concrete examples of misinformation: size

The remark on the size of Amur tigers at the start of the video is from 'Die Säugetiere der Sowjetunion', Band III, Raubtiere (V.G. Heptner and A.A. Sludskij, German translation, Jena, 1980). It's one of the best I read, but the information on size, to put it mildly, is highly questionable. The reason is the sources they used (Baikov, Barclay, Sysoev and a host of others) are unreliable. V. Mazak, who also used Baikov and Barclay in the first edition of his great book 'Der Tiger', was severely punished by his peers, but Heptner and Sludskij, using the same sources and producing the same conclusions on the size of Amur tigers as Mazak, are still regarded as a reliable source. The result is many still think an average male Amur tiger is 13 feet and 650 pounds.

It has to be admitted that reliable information on the size of wild Amur tigers a century is hard to find. Most unfortunately, things didn't change later. Those involved in the STP (Siberian Tiger Project) published a table in 2005. That table says male Amur tigers of 3 years and older today (before 2005) average 389 pounds and about 9.8 in total length measured 'over curves'. The sample used, however, is smallish and includes a number of 'problem tigers' and young adults. As it is known that the difference between young adults and adults is significant in big cats (referring to skulls), one has no option but to conclude that things in the department of size are about as unclear as before. 

According to Ullas Karanth, tigers captured in Chitwan (Nepal), Nagarahole (India) and Sichote-Alin (Russia) today (meaning two decades ago) are about the same size ('Tigers', 2001, pp. 48). But he too used Heptner and Sludskij regarding the size of Amur tigers and he didn't say that tigers in Nepal and India are considerably heavier than their relatives in Russia. Furthermore, in another publication, he stated that measurements taken 'over curves' are more reliable than measurements taken 'between pegs'. Although he turned the world upside down in this respect, I never read any comments of his peers. But V. Mazak, who also referred to measurements taken 'over curves' in the first publication of his book 'Der Tiger', is still regarded as unreliable in the department of measurements. This although he later only used measurements taken 'between pegs' and measured captive tigers in this way himself. One of the very few who did.

One could write a book on the method used to measure wild big cats (measurements taken 'over curves' are unreliable, because the method can be applied in different ways) and the criteria used to judge peers, but I decided to focus on the video. 

A century ago, tigers shot in the northern part of British India were measured in the same way as today. The information I have suggests they compared to wild Amur tigers today for length, but those in Nepal were, and are, a bit longer. And quite a bit heavier. Same for tigers in northern India.   
               
In order to add to the confusion, captive Amur tigers are quite a bit larger than their wild relatives. Most captive Amur tigers are descendents of wild Amur tigers captured in the fifties and sixties of the last century. Those who studied historic records of wild Amur tigers (referring to the 2005-publication discussed above) concluded the decline in size started in 1970 or thereabout.
    
3 - Tigers hunting in water

I thought I saw a post saying jaguars are more capable hunters than tigers in deep water. I'm not sure about jaguars, but those doubting the ability of tigers in this respect could read a bit about Sunderban tigers.

Not a few of them have been known to swim to boats in order to secure a victim. Although most boats had guards to prevent just that, tigers often succeeded to enter and leave boats unseen at night. This in spite of the combined weight of tiger and victim. Ever tried to swim a few hundred yards, lift your heavy body into a boat, kill a man, leave without being heard and swim back to shore with a man half your weight? And do it again? How able can you get?

4 - Smedz

Most of us try to learn a few things in life. The only reliable way to get to knowledge is to work hard and continue for as long as you live. Every now and then, someone will assist you. Doesn't happen often, but it happens. Help often is you saying something and being proven wrong. Shadow responded to the video. A debate erupted. I decided to do a post. The question was answered.

You responded by downgrading the first one prepared to help out. Compares to shooting the one getting you out of the water when your ship sank and sharks invited you for a swim.   

Here's a few words on help. From day one, you have to learn. Not easy by any means. Every now and then, you get a lucky break meaning someone is prepared to help you. Help often opens doors to new rooms. Rooms you never heard of. 

My advice is to quit watching flashy videos with background music, fancy drawings and highlights. Count to ten when your ego says help isn't fair, start reading some serious books, undo the downgrading, say thank you and focus on cougars.
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