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Tigers have good endurance?
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 (05-02-2019, 03:00 PM)Sanju Wrote:(05-02-2019, 02:47 PM)Rage2277 Wrote: shadow has a point,many people actually think amurs average 300kgs it's kind of insane the same is being said for atlas lions..I know many think like that due to lack of knowledge and bias or fanaticism. I gave that weight only as an example about it, that why this kind of videos can be seen in different ways, it wasn´t meant to start a weight discussion. I gave some criticism and one example about it how that video can give wrong impressions, because based on this video smedz had a question. And what comes to that question he had, claim on that video was also quite strong about a bit controversial matter, imo. I would have loved to hear to what she based that claim, that tigers would be big cats with most endurance and able to chase prey longer than others. I don´t know if that is true or false, but when saying it so clearly, then also some reasoning would be good to have. So no, that weight is not relevant alone, but it was an example to explain, why I said, that it is good to be careful with information told in that video. And same thing with many other videos in youtube. Nowadays so many channels provide content which looks like professionally made and then total nonsense. This video now was quite ok in many ways, but also then again not too... hmmm... well, I wouldn´t call it quality documentary overall. But what comes to question Smedz asked, that is interesting and I am not sure, that we heard on video well studied and undeniable fact, but one hypothesis and I also would like to know to what it is based on? Or is that commonly agreed fact which I and some others have missed for some reason? 
@Shadow Agreed.
Regarding smedz question, @Spalea answer is apt imo. Quote:@Spalea 
@Sanju :
About #14: you told: " She is not a biologist but enthusiastic to show her talent and skill of art work by hosting in the you tube channel show like I said before but the crew has biology experts who design the script. Pls don't misunderstand and involve her in this. Again they said only "upto" if anyone who (those younger people) see the video think tigers usually weigh 300 kg, then they can be considered as deaf." I confess not to look at his video. OK she is working with a biologist within the crew, and I admired the ceratopsian's head she realised, but when I after started to listen to the video, I instantly stopped it. She hasn't an adult's voice. But the fault, that @Shadow denounced, is a very current one (to only memorize the extreme cases which so become common) among young persons like her and I answered because of that. (05-02-2019, 06:06 PM)Spalea Wrote: But the fault, that @Shadow denounced, is a very current one (to only memorize the extreme cases which so become common) among young persons like her and I answered because of that.So ? it's the fault of those young persons to memories only the extremes not youtube video/wiki/any other website/blog to address weight "range" of a species. Anyway its irrelevant here about species weight and people's memorizing abilities here. smedz asked, you answered, I appreciated. over. Of course, you can take more regarding he thread's topic and anyone can express opinion. (05-02-2019, 06:17 PM)Sanju Wrote:(05-02-2019, 06:06 PM)Spalea Wrote: But the fault, that @Shadow denounced, is a very current one (to only memorize the extreme cases which so become common) among young persons like her and I answered because of that.So ? it's the fault of those young persons to memories only the extremes not youtube video/wiki/any other website/blog to address weight "range" of a species. Anyway its irrelevant here about species weight and people's memorizing abilities here. I don't know where the problem is... The youtube video mentions an extreme case. The young and very enthusiastic viewer only retains the extreme figure - for exemple a 300-kilos tiger - and in turn when he will speak about about tiger, he will say that they weigh 300 kilos. 300 kilos becoming an average. The video failure is perhaps not to enough mention that the tigers can weigh up 300 kilos, 200 kilos being much more common. The viewer's fault to retain only 300 kilos as tiger's weight.
@Spalea . I don't see any problem in the video except not mentioning average weight of tiger. They only said they they can be upto 300 kg. That is not their fault either for not mentioning the average coz there is no rule to describe that "must and should" as most people know that if they are really interested in tigers, instead they focused to narrate more interesting things about tigers.
don't know why tiger weight is bothering in this thread to keep focus on it and people's misconception and memorization (tigers fans exaggerate amur, jaguar fans-pantanal and lion fans exaggerate barbary)- we can't do anything for that.. everybody knows here that amurs avg 200 kg these days and Bengals slightly avg more. again saying let's don't deviate from main intent of thread. :) (05-02-2019, 06:43 PM)Sanju Wrote: @Spalea . I don't see any problem in the video except not mentioning average weight of tiger. They only said they they can be upto 300 kg. That is not their fault either for not mentioning the average coz there is no rule to describe that "must and should" as most people know that if they are really interested in tigers, instead they focused to narrate more interesting things about tigers.It wasn´t only weight, that was only one example. She said many controversial things only from one side. That is why I said, that good video to get kids interested about animals and/or maybe also older who aren´t so interested about wildlife and conservation. But for people, who are interested really and seeking good and valid information, that video was quite meaningless. So it depends about point of view how you look at this matter :) I didn´t mean that all young people are retarded or something, it was more an expression for something what I don´t take so seriously as source of information when wanting to study some animal.
@smedz
 *This image is copyright of its original author Tigers like all other cats don't have much endurance in sprinting long distances. Rather, they have very good endurance and unique abilities in swimming unlike others. Tigers can cross rivers up to 7 km (4.3 mi) wide and can swim up to 29 km (18 mi) distances in a day. Most Aquatic big cat other than Jaguar. Constant and Persistently, a tiger can swim much longer distance than jaguar relatively. Jaguar might have the strongest bite force of all extant cats pound for pound but stronger muscles of tiger with large paws helps it to stay in water drifting at steady pace for longer distance efficiently due to relatively longer body posture to propel unlike jaguar heavy, short and stocky posture. Novak, R. M.; Walker, E. P. (1999). "Panthera tigris (tiger)". The jaguar generally roams on the banks of the mighty Amazon in South America and mostly will stay swimming in surrounding fresh water bodies like rivers and streams, but tiger on the other hand swims in open sea, lakes and rivers. Tiger might be the better swimmer but in "hunting in water" department though, jaguar takes the edge as better aquatic hunter for obvious reasons need not to be mentioned, I'm not degrading tiger hunting skills in water-so don't get offended, tiger too is a good hunter in water.  *This image is copyright of its original author *This image is copyright of its original author Tiger even kill fisherman on boats sometimes. The best living extant example is our sundarbans tiger during their dispersal between islets of the mangrove Gangetic delta in Bay of Bengal. Sumatran tigers have been recorded to swim in the open sea from an island to another. Some others notable worth mentions which are well known hunting in water bodies are our ranthambore, corbett and north east tigers (kazi and manas). So, I hope this could help to your question.  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-29987187 *This image is copyright of its original author swimming in the open sea
So you @smedz modified my reputation downwards because I wrote to this thread. I am sorry if you feel, that certain threads are owned by you and only certain kind of opinions and conclusions are allowed.
Next time just put to start, that only such postings are ok, where everyone agree, that tiger is superior big cat, what comes to endurance. Still I don´t think, that this forum is meant to be such, that postings with reasoning are banned. So if you want to modify my reputation because I question something, which I feel that is controversial, feel free to take it all out, I don´t mind :) 
Calm down, Some light debate is inevitable on a public forum. But showing professionalism and manner all depends on individuals. You two can better handle the situation
(05-17-2019, 06:59 AM)sanjay Wrote: Calm down, Some light debate is inevitable on a public forum. But showing professionalism and manner all depends on individuals. You two can better handle the situation I hope, that no-one is upset :) But I respect debate, not certain other actions. Taking out reputation if someone writes total nonsense is one thing. But when writing some opinion with reasoning, if disagreeing it would be nice to read criticism openly here right away. Open discussion is the thing what for instance I am seeking here. If something I write looks like odd to someone, I don´t mind if saying it and telling why. That is the way to handle things which I respect.  (05-02-2019, 04:04 AM)smedz Wrote: I was watching an episode from Animalogic on tigers, and the host says that unlike other cats, tigers have pretty good endurance which allows them to chase prey longer than other cats. I always thought tigers had terrible endurance. Is what this person says true? 1 - How to use reliable info to get to misinformation Nearly everything presented in the video is based on research. This means it, informationwise, should be solid. It isn't. How possible? The answer is selection. Only highlights were selected. Is it possible to completely crap a video by selecting highlights only? No problem. Example. Let's assume I have to do a video on humans for aliens. One that has to attract attention. I'll start by saying humans can grow to 7 feet in length and 600 pounds in weight. That would not be incorrect. If I add they can swim twenty miles in open water in one go, climb enormous mountains in a few days and survive fights with impressive carnivores, I would still be quite safe. If I, to wind up the concert, conclude the video by saying they can produce machines to explore the globe in a few hours and even change the climate, I'd still not be cheating. In spite of all that, I would have produced a 10-minute video loaded with crap. More than enough to qualify for serious treatment, most would say. Freedom of thought and speech have advantages, but not all the time. 2 - Concrete examples of misinformation: size The remark on the size of Amur tigers at the start of the video is from 'Die Säugetiere der Sowjetunion', Band III, Raubtiere (V.G. Heptner and A.A. Sludskij, German translation, Jena, 1980). It's one of the best I read, but the information on size, to put it mildly, is highly questionable. The reason is the sources they used (Baikov, Barclay, Sysoev and a host of others) are unreliable. V. Mazak, who also used Baikov and Barclay in the first edition of his great book 'Der Tiger', was severely punished by his peers, but Heptner and Sludskij, using the same sources and producing the same conclusions on the size of Amur tigers as Mazak, are still regarded as a reliable source. The result is many still think an average male Amur tiger is 13 feet and 650 pounds. It has to be admitted that reliable information on the size of wild Amur tigers a century ago is hard to find. Most unfortunately, things didn't change later. Those involved in the STP (Siberian Tiger Project) published a table in 2005. That table says male Amur tigers of 3 years and older average 389 pounds and about 9.8 in total length measured 'over curves' today. And today is 1992-2005. The sample used, however, is small and includes a number of 'problem tigers' and young adults. As it is known that the difference between young adults and adults is significant in big cats (referring to total length, weight and skulls), one has no option but to conclude that things in the department of size are about as unclear as before. According to Ullas Karanth, tigers captured in Chitwan (Nepal), Nagarahole (India) and Sichote-Alin (Russia) today (three decades ago) are about the same size ('Tigers', 2001, pp. 48). But he too used Heptner and Sludskij regarding the size of Amur tigers and he didn't say that tigers in Nepal and India are considerably heavier than their relatives in Russia. Furthermore, in another publication, he stated that measurements taken 'over curves' are more reliable than measurements taken 'between pegs'. Although he turned the world upside down in this respect, I never read any comments of his peers. But V. Mazak, who also referred to measurements taken 'over curves' in the first publication of his book 'Der Tiger', is still regarded as unreliable in the department of measurements. This although he later only used measurements taken 'between pegs' and measured captive tigers in this way himself. One of the very few who did. One could write a book on the best method to measure wild big cats (measurements taken 'over curves' are unreliable, because the method can be applied in different ways) and the criteria used to judge peers, but I decided to focus on the video. A century ago, tigers shot in the northern part of British India were measured in the same way as today. The information I have suggests they compared to wild Amur tigers today for length, but those in Nepal were, and are, a bit longer. And quite a bit heavier. Same for tigers in northern India. In order to add to the confusion, captive Amur tigers are quite a bit larger than their wild relatives. Most captive Amur tigers are descendents of wild Amur tigers captured in the fifties and sixties of the last century. Those who studied historic records of wild Amur tigers (referring to the 2005-publication discussed above) concluded the decline in size started in 1970 or thereabout. 3 - Tigers hunting in water I thought I saw a post saying jaguars are more capable hunters than tigers in deep water. I know jaguars can kill a caiman about their own weight (but usually quite a bit less), but those comparing them to tigers in this respect should read a bit about Sunderban tigers. Not a few of them have been known to swim to boats to secure a human victim. Although most boats had guards to prevent just that, tigers often succeeded to enter and leave boats unseen at night. This in spite of the combined weight of tiger and victim. Ever tried to swim a few hundred yards, lift your body into a boat, kill a man, leave without being heard and swim back to shore with a man at least half your weight? How able can you get? 4 - Smedz Most of us try to learn a few things in life. The only reliable way to get to knowledge is to work hard and continue for as long as you live. Every now and then, someone will assist you. Doesn't happen often, but it happens. Help often is you saying something and being proven wrong. Shadow responded to the video. A debate erupted. I decided to do a post. The question was answered. You responded by downgrading the first one prepared to help out. Compares to shooting the one getting you out of the water when your ship sank and sharks invited you for a swim. Here's a few words on help. From day one, you have to learn. Not easy by any means. Every now and then, you get a lucky break meaning someone is prepared to help you. Help often opens doors to new rooms. Rooms you never heard of. My advice is to quit watching flashy videos with background music, fancy drawings and highlights. Count to ten when your ego says help isn't fair, start reading some serious books, undo the downgrading, say thank you and focus on cougars. 
Well, I saw the video and I can say that is a good one, not exceptional but the information that it shares is accurate.
There are only two things that I consider an error: 1. The size that they quote is the same old "mantra" that still continue even in scientific books. So is probably not her fauld or that of the video editors. In fact, like @peter mentions, in the book "The Way of the Tiger" Dr Karanth mentions exactly the same figures of this video (3.9 meters long and up to 300 kg). In the latest book "Wild Cats of the World" of Dr Luke Hunter, he STILL quote that the head-body length of tigers is of 300 cm! So this is something that we most fight during much more time. 2. The video says that male tigers may kill the cubs to make tigresses interested in mate again, but that is a terrible confusion. Male tigers are good fathers, some of them taking care of they cubs at a great level than the social lion. Now, the tigers that kill the cubs are the new and unrelated males, so they should be very specific in that point. Interesting is to say that the old believe that tigresses do not allow males near the cubs at the first days of life is incorrect, as Dr Chundawat observed how "Hairyfoot" shared time with his cubs of only a few weeks old. I think that all the other information is correct, on average. The case of the "subspecies" I think that is still controversial and is far from be settle, so they are just quoting the last aggremient of the IUCN, although is still not fully resolve. Finally, about the tiger endurance, all the cats have relatively bad stamina, that is for sure. So what about tigers? Well, they are predators that evolved in close habitats and are not designed for long runs but for short rushes and explosive direct attacks. However, they are also very well adapted to they environment and is a fact that tigers swim huge distances without been tired, even taking prey with them! In fact, the case of the tiger "Genghis" in Ranthambore is very impresive as this male hunted like a cheetah, runing directly to the sambar deers and even killing and draging the large deers in the water. Valmik Thapar says in his book "Tiger: the ultimate guide" that tigers can reach up to sixty miles per hour, altough we know that is for short distances. This means that after the cheetah and probably the puma, tigers are the fastest cats on Earth. Tigers have good endurance and normally travel big distances. In fact, Dr Chundawat (2018) and Dr McDougal (1977) go against that idea that tigers, specially males, are lazy animals. They found that they constantly travel very big distances to cover they entire territory. So for a male tiger, resting the 20 hours at day that some books quote is not an option, as they need to patrol the entire area, make marks, hunt for them and visit (if posible) they females. Been a male tigers is not an easy task! (07-29-2019, 10:17 PM)GuateGojira Wrote: Well, I saw the video and I can say that is a good one, not exceptional but the information that it shares is accurate. I think, that in this there are many opinions, for me that video is pretty much same as rubbish for the reasons, which I have mentioned before. If someone doesn´t have interest to read my earlier comments, mainly the way how things are presented making it easy to mix up biggest possibles and averages in confusing way etc., if not paying attention. But I would love to see how Thapar justifies that claim about 60 miles per hour. Of course if we take short enough distance, when big cats are in top speed after first speedup.... let´s say 10 meters, maybe lions, leopards and some others would go also 60 miles per hour and cheetah 80 miles per hour.... if talking about peaks what comes to speed. Speed discussion is one of the controversial ones and different sources give a bit different kind of speeds. But I don´t think, that Thapar has said in his ultimate guide more than his guess about this matter. Or is there some sources about it, that how that speed was calculated? How long time or distance tiger would be able to run that fast? That would be some part of run after some speedup first as mentioned before, or? But also as said, then it should be compared in same way when looking at other big cats, not to commonly told speeds, which most probably are average speeds from longer distance, not just peak in the middle of the run. But if there is more information about it, that to what that claim is based, it would be interesting to see. |
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