There is a world somewhere between reality and fiction. Although ignored by many, it is very real and so are those living in it. This forum is about the natural world. Here, wild animals will be heard and respected. The forum offers a glimpse into an unknown world as well as a room with a view on the present and the future. Anyone able to speak on behalf of those living in the emerald forest and the deep blue sea is invited to join.
02-08-2024, 05:24 PM( This post was last modified: 02-08-2024, 06:01 PM by Pckts )
(02-06-2024, 08:45 PM)Apex Titan Wrote:
(02-01-2024, 11:37 PM)Pckts Wrote: Aside from Gaur being completely out of frame when the Tiger is spotted, so who knows how long apart it is. Following is making a kill?
Once again, stop making conclusions without actual evidence to back it.
You're the one who makes conclusions without any shred of evidence to back it, look in the mirror. When did I imply that the tiger "made the kill"?? All I said is that the tiger is following this large bull gaur to kill it. Whether the tiger killed this bull or not is unknown.
The tiger in the video is walking on the exact same path and heading in the exact same direction that big bull gaur is. Also the manner in which that tiger is walking looks like he's following that bull gaur. Now considering the fact, which has been observed countless times for many decades by actual field experts, that tigers follow both the tracks/trails and the animals that they are hunting, makes me adamant that this tiger is most likely following this bull gaur to kill it.
And also considering the well known scientifically established fact that bull gaurs get frequently killed by tigers and that even the largest bull gaurs fall prey to single tigers, makes me even more adamant that this tiger is stalking this bull gaur to kill him.
Quote:Agreed @Spalea , lots of absurd claims there. Also I don’t think they understand how large a “60kg dog” actually is, now add multiple ones equipped with claws and large teeth to go a long with a 100 -140kg tigress all participating to take down a Cow, which isn’t close to a Bull by any stretch. The difference between a cow which is shown in the video and a big bull is massive, that goes for Capes too. Bulls are nothing but muscle mass, aggression and territorial.
Here's the context of the account/video that @ganidat posted. The tigress was actually training her small cub how to hunt and kill adult gaurs. Initially, the tigress 'Maya' single-handedly attacked and badly crippled the adult gaur and then let her small cub attack and maul it as she sat on the side and watched on!
So the fact that the tigress single-handedly attacked and crippled the gaur to the point it couldn't even move and then chilled on the side and watched her small cub practice on it alone, just speaks volumes on even a tigress's incredible ability at killing dangerous prey like adult gaurs. The tigress could have easily single-handedly killed this adult cow gaur, but it was a training session for her small cubs.
Here's the full description to this account by the eyewitnesses:
"The moment we reached at Pandharpauni 1, we saw Maya and one of the Cubs swimming in the water then suddenly Maya came out of the water as she saw a Gaur (Indian Bison) on the other side of the waterhole. She eye-locked the target and started walking towards the Gaur … what a moment as one could really see the change in her body language while preparing for the hunt!..
"She initially attacked from the back and tore the hamstring so that the Gaur could not move. Then she attacked on the Gaur’s shoulder and neck, one could notice that she actually wanted to train her cubs and hence, she did not kill the Gaur but instead allowed her cubs to attack & hunt."...
*This image is copyright of its original author
After hamstringing and badly crippling the Gaur, the tigress just chills on the side and watches her small cub get to work:
Yes, bull gaurs, especially big bulls are certainly nothing but "muscle mass, aggression and territorial" like you said. Even immense size and strength. And in spite of this, they still get slaughtered and eaten by single tigers. How? Why?...
Because tigers are massive apex predators and supreme killers that have a lethal combination of size, strength, power, speed, agility, weaponry and killing skills, that are specifically designed and built to single-handedly attack, subdue and kill huge dangerous animals like bull gaurs, bull buffaloes etc, and regulate their numbers.
You only look at the bull gaur's physicality, but look at the tiger's physicality and what its specifically built to do!
According to just my views or opinions? NO. But according to mountains of undeniable evidence and accounts reported and documented by various field biologists, scientists, zoologists, naturalists, experienced hunters, trackers, and forest guides for many decades.
“Mountains of undeniable evidence”
Yet never once has a kill been seen on big Bull outside of a fantastical story of a Tiger making an Gaur bellow sound then kicking up a dust bowl to camouflage itself then snapping its neck in one instance. Something that’s never come close to happening again.
Amazingly kills on cows are seen often enough though which is interesting in itself since Bulls are nomads, they are far more susceptible to predation with their lack of numbers and bold attitude which means standing its ground while cows flee.
Animals die naturally in the real world, seeing a predator on a kill doesn’t necessarily mean the animal was killed by that predator. Animals get sick, weakened by age, young and underdeveloped, etc. All of those things factor in to it’s ability to live and defend itself.
A predator on a carcass or hair found in scat aren’t conclusive and don’t give enough evidence to determine a cause of death.
Jumping to conclusions without knowing the details is pointless.
Has Pckts been banned? If that is the case thank him for his time and effort, he has been keeping this page alive over the last years almost on his own.
PCKTS banned ? Frankly, I cannot understand why. Beyond areas of disagrement I could have with him sometimes, he was always a sure value of the Wildfact image, always serious and competent, never fanatic or dogmatic.
Thank him for his contribution and I hope to see him here again.
The following 1 user Likes Spalea's post:1 user Likes Spalea's post • Ngonya
02-15-2024, 09:14 AM( This post was last modified: 02-16-2024, 08:11 AM by peter )
ABOUT POSTING, RULES AND BANS
PC and Apex were involved in a debate. It started somewhere, moved to the tiger thread and continued in 'Amur Tigers' and 'Tiger Predation'. Clashes of this nature often affect the climate. Members noticed and we noticed. After some time, I asked them to call it a day. It had no effect. I asked again, offered an advice and, to make sure, added a warning. This time, Apex acted. Meaning he took a two week break. PC continued as if nothing had happened, meaning he's not that interested in rules, mods and good advice. Also meaning he qualified for a ban. Not two, but four weeks. If he returns and ignores a mod again, it's curtains.
Apex has been involved in quite a few debates. He knows we're not too keen on them over here, but enters one at every opportunity. Every time, the result is similar in that it affects the climate and every time a member pays. Apex eluded the ban dance, but this was the last time.
As for those asking questions (Pantherinae and Spalea). You'll find one part of the answer in the rules section. Another part is on this page. Meaning it's right in front of your eyes. You would have noticed if you would have taken the trouble to read a few posts, that is.
This forum is about the natural world. Good info is the aim. We don't mind the occasional debate, provided you use arguments and sound reasoning. Remember it's about respect. Respect for good info, respect for the rules of engagement and respect for the one you're debating. If it doesnt work out as expected, you can agree to disagree, withdraw or, when rules have been violated, inform the mods. They, no matter what, have the last word. Any member ignoring rules and mods will be warned. If the warning is ignored, a ban wil follow.
As to the debate that resulted in problems. According to PC, a bull gaur about to die informs all tigers in the neighbourhood. This is the protocol tigers and gaurs agreed on a long time ago. As tigers usually are the first to arrive at his remains, it seems they killed the gaur. Not so, PC says. Apex, on the other hand, suggests even tigresses routinely kill bull gaurs for breakfast. Both are wrong and if they aren't, they're scratching the edges of reality.
The answer to all questions about tigers and gaurs is in recent articles and observations of hunters, rangers, villagers, tourists and photographers. Biologists usually need years to get to conclusions, whereas others write about an incident they witnessed on a particular day. All that is without the countless exceptions (referring to differences between individuals and differences between regions). Meaning you have to do quite a bit of reading to get to a conclusion. As this is a time consuming process, we don't mind members discussing incidents, as long as they remember there's a difference between an incident and a pattern.
There are many authentic reports about tigers hunting large herbivores in southeast Asia, PC, and I mean many. That's still without 'specialists' hunting big herbivores only. Read the books of Bazé, Berg and countless others. That, Apex, doesn't mean every adult tiger is able to hamstring every large herbivore at will. The outcome of a struggle depends. There are reliable records of 'specialists' killed by gaurs and wild buffaloes. Find reliable accounts before getting to a conclusion. If you read them, chances are you'll conclude just about anything is possible in a struggle between two large animals. Professional hunters come out on top more often, but in the end anything is possible.
Same (referring to reading in order to get to an overview and an opinion) for interactions between tigers and bears. In most regions of southeast Asia, tigers and bears coexist. Tigers not often hunt them, but there are bear 'specialists' in most districts and regions. Himalayan black bears, however, are not on the menu in southeast Asia. The main difference between that region and the Russian Far East is in the number of bears. As a result of the abundance of bears in the Russian Far East, tigers and bears meet much more often than in southeast Asia. Bears are professional scavengers, meaning they'll use any opportunity to feed on a kill, including tiger kills. Every now and then, clashes erupt. Although the outcome differs, tigers win most fights. They have to if they want to survive (referring to the long and harsh winters and the very real risk of energy deficits and starvation), meaning the local conditions resulted in selection over time. Culture, PC. In contrast to tigers living in northern India, Nepal, Bhutan and even Vietnam, tigers in the Russian Far East (learned to) hunt Himalayan black bears. According to those who know, tigers hunt Himalayan black bears of all ages and sizes. For more info, read recent articles written by Russian biologists. There's a nice series about Himalayan black bears (referring to You Tube) in which Kolchin features. He knows about tigers and bears and that's an understatement.
Male Amur tigers occasionally hunt brown bears up to the size of an adult female. Most of them are experienced old males, but immature tigers and young adults also are involved. Tiger 'Pavlik' was arrested for a violation when he was in his teens. After rehabilitation and a promise to stay out of trouble, he was released. The collar said he killed both male Himalayan black bears and female Ussuri brown bears. This although he wasn't full-grown. Recent information suggests there are quite many young adult males occasionally hunting bears.
Do adult male Amur tigers and Ussuri male brown bears clash as well? The answer is affirmative, but only very few seem to result in casualties. At least, not in the period 1992-2016. A year later, in 2017, a large male brown bear suddenly disappeared after harrassing tigress 'Rachel' and her cubs for a prolonged period of time. It happened in the territory of biologist Batalov. Bear posters said the bear was shot, but Batalov, as experienced as they come, is convinced the big bear was killed and eaten by male tiger 'Ochkarik'. Five years later, in November 2022, in the same region, a male brown bear with a palm width of 18 cm (!) was killed by male tiger 'Odyr'. This time, experienced rangers found evidence of a (prolonged) fight in the snow. A few years later, 'Odyr' apparently harrassed a hibernating male bear. For some reason, the attempt was aborted. The bear left to hibernate elsewhere. Some posters think the size of the bear might have been a factor.
Are both incidents indicative? Although most authorities think a tiger has the best chance in a fight, male tigers and male brown bears seem to disagree. Meaning they try to avoid discussions. For good reasons, as even a draw, days later, can result in severe infections and injuries. In autopsy reports of male tigers found dead in the period just before the Siberian Tiger Project started, you'll find descriptions of (paw) injuries that could have been caused by (brown) bears. One has remember a male tiger, faster and more agile than an adult male brown bear, is able to leave a fight not going his way. Not always true for a male brown bear. Meaning there's statistics (referring to fights with a fatal outcome) and reality (unknown, but debilitating injuries preventing a tiger to hunt) and also meaning we don't know.
Apex posted a lot of (good) information about interactions between Amur tigers and brown bears. The info suggests relations between male tigers and male brown bears could be more complicated than we think. There are quite many videos showing male tigers and male brown bears visiting the same 'post office' (tree) to investigate, and leave, scent marks. There are videos showing male tigers patrolling their turf and large male brown bears following them from a distance. The large male tiger known as 'The Beast' and the large male brown bear visiting the same tree in Anyuisky most probably were well aware of each other. Apart from the two incidents mentioned above, however, I never read anything about a serious fight between an adult male tiger and an adult male brown bear. Meaning adult males of both species are able to coexist. Clashes do occur every now and then, but close proximiy doesn't seem to be the main reason. If anything, a fight seems to be personal. Meaning the protocol could have been violated.
As to clashes between male tigers and male bears. The outcome of a fight between adult males of the same species often is determined by age and size. Most posters think it isn't any different in fights between males of different species. As Ussuri male brown bears are significantly heavier than adult male tigers (at the level of averages), bear posters think this advantage is the main reason male tigers try to avoid fights. Judging from the size of both male tigers and the male brown bears they killed (see above), however, this doesn't seem to be the case. At least, not in both incidents described above. Other observations, however, suggest a large male brown bear does have an advantage. Meaning the information is contradicting and also meaning we don't know enough to get to a conclusion. We do, however, know male tigers at times are prepared to confront even a large male brown bear. Their ability in a fight, however, doesn't mean a clash is a formality. Far from it. All in all, I'd say the actual behaviour of both (mutual avoidance) is the best source of information.
What I'm ultimately saying is a good post isn't a result of a hunch or reading a few pages here and there. If you really want to get to a conclusion on a specific issue, it's imperative to read as many articles and books as you can. It's the only reliable way to confirm or reject a 'hypothesis'. When you do, you'll quickly notice biologists not seldom (seem to) contradict themselves and each other. We don't expect members to produce interesting posts time and again, but we do expect them to respect a few basic rules and one of them is to stay away from firm statements.
Both PC and Apex have some credit, but that doesn't mean they can do as they please all the time. PC seems to invest most of his time in questioning just about everything these days. Not seldom, it results in scratching the edges. I'm not saying he's involved in misinformation, but he's closing in at times. That's still apart from the deteriorating climate and the decision to ignore rules and mods. Apex isn't involved in misinformation, but the way he tends to present information not seldom results in a, ehh, somewhat distorted view. And plenty of animosity. I asked him to change this habit, but he too decided to ignore the advice offered. Over the years, it resulted a quite a few 'debates', a lot of problems and even more scalps. It stops here and now. Meaning I'm done investing (a lot of) time in solving problems that can easily be avoided.
Are we asking too much? Most members of Wildfact are interested in wild lions. They debate all the time and it resulted in a lot of interesting threads. The lion section generates much more traffic than all other sections combined and many members (and readers) interested in lions told us the lion section is the best they know of. By a decent margin. There have been a few problems here and there, but members and mods usually quickly dealt with them. Meaning it can be done.
(02-15-2024, 09:14 AM)peter Wrote: ABOUT POSTING, RULES AND BANS
PC and Apex were involved in a debate. It started somewhere, moved to the tiger thread and continued in 'Amur Tigers' and 'Tiger Predation'. Clashes of this nature often affect the climate. Members noticed and we noticed. After some time, I asked them to call it a day. It had no effect. I asked again, offered an advice and, to make sure, added a warning. This time, Apex acted. Meaning he took a two week break. PC continued as if nothing had happened, meaning he's not that interested in rules, mods and good advice. Also meaning he qualified for a ban. Not two, but four weeks. If he returns and ignores a mod again, it's curtains.
Apex has been involved in quite a few debates. He knows we're not too keen on them over here, but enters one at every opportunity. Every time, the result is similar in that it affects the climate and every time a member pays. Apex eluded the ban dance, but this was the last time.
As for those asking questions (Pantherinae and Spalea). You'll find one part of the answer in the rules section. Another part is on this page. Meaning it's right in front of your eyes. You would have noticed if you would have taken the trouble to read a few posts, that is.
This forum is about the natural world. Good info is the aim. We don't mind the occasional debate, provided you use arguments and sound reasoning. Remember it's about respect. Respect for good info, respect for the rules of engagement and respect for the one you're debating. If it doesnt work out as expected, you can agree to disagree, withdraw or, when rules have been violated, inform the mods. They, no matter what, have the last word. Any member ignoring rules and mods will be warned. If the warning is ignored, a ban wil follow.
As to the debate that resulted in problems. According to PC, a bull gaur about to die informs all tigers in the neighbourhood. This is the protocol tigers and gaurs agreed on a long time ago. As tigers usually are the first to arrive at his remains, it seems they killed the gaur. Not so, PC says. Apex, on the other hand, suggests even tigresses routinely kill bull gaurs for breakfast. Both are wrong and if they aren't, they're scratching the edges of reality.
The answer to all questions about tigers and gaurs is in recent articles and observations of hunters, rangers, villagers, tourists and photographers. Biologists usually need years to get to conclusions, whereas others write about an incident they witnessed on a particular day. All that is without the countless exceptions (referring to differences between individuals and differences between regions). Meaning you have to do quite a bit of reading to get to a conclusion. As this is a time consuming process, we don't mind members discussing incidents, as long as they remember there's a difference between an incident and a pattern.
There are many authentic reports about tigers hunting large herbivores in southeast Asia, PC, and I mean many. That's still without 'specialists' hunting big herbivores only. Read the books of Bazé, Berg and countless others. That, Apex, doesn't mean every adult tiger is able to hamstring every large herbivore at will. The outcome of a struggle depends. There are reliable records of 'specialists' killed by gaurs and wild buffaloes. Find reliable accounts before getting to a conclusion. If you read them, chances are you'll conclude just about anything is possible in a struggle between two large animals. Professional hunters come out on top more often, but in the end anything is possible.
Same (referring to reading in order to get to an overview and an opinion) for interactions between tigers and bears. In most regions of southeast Asia, tigers and bears coexist. Tigers not often hunt them, but there are bear 'specialists' in most districts and regions. Himalayan black bears, however, are not on the menu in southeast Asia. The main difference between that region and the Russian Far East is in the number of bears. As a result of the abundance of bears in the Russian Far East, tigers and bears meet much more often than in southeast Asia. Bears are professional scavengers, meaning they'll use any opportunity to feed on a kill, including tiger kills. Every now and then, clashes erupt. Although the outcome differs, tigers win most fights. They have to if they want to survive (referring to the long and harsh winters and the very real risk of energy deficits and starvation), meaning the local conditions resulted in selection over time. Culture, PC. In contrast to tigers living in northern India, Nepal, Bhutan and even Vietnam, tigers in the Russian Far East (learned to) hunt Himalayan black bears. According to those who know, tigers hunt Himalayan black bears of all ages and sizes. For more info, read recent articles written by Russian biologists. There's a nice series about Himalayan black bears (referring to You Tube) in which Kolchin features. He knows about tigers and bears and that's an understatement.
Male Amur tigers occasionally hunt brown bears up to the size of an adult female. Most of them are experienced old males, but immature tigers and young adults also are involved. Tiger 'Pavlik' was arrested for a violation when he was in his teens. After rehabilitation and a promise to stay out of trouble, he was released. The collar said he killed both male Himalayan black bears and female Ussuri brown bears. This although he wasn't full-grown. Recent information suggests there are quite many young adult males occasionally hunting bears.
Do adult male Amur tigers and Ussuri male brown bears clash as well? The answer is affirmative, but only very few seem to result in casualties. At least, not in the period 1992-2016. A year later, in 2017, a large male brown bear suddenly disappeared after harrassing tigress 'Rachel' and her cubs for a prolonged period of time. It happened in the territory of biologist Batalov. Bear posters said the bear was shot, but Batalov, as experienced as they come, is convinced the big bear was killed and eaten by male tiger 'Ochkarik'. Five years later, in November 2022, in the same region, a male brown bear with a palm width of 18 cm (!) was killed by male tiger 'Odyr'. This time, experienced rangers found evidence of a (prolonged) fight in the snow. A few years later, 'Odyr' apparently harrassed a hibernating male bear. For some reason, the attempt was aborted. The bear left to hibernate elsewhere. Some posters think the size of the bear might have been a factor.
Are both incidents indicative? Although most authorities think a tiger has the best chance in a fight, male tigers and male brown bears seem to disagree. Meaning they try to avoid discussions. For good reasons, as even a draw, days later, can result in severe infections and injuries. In autopsy reports of male tigers found dead in the period just before the Siberian Tiger Project started, you'll find descriptions of (paw) injuries that could have been caused by (brown) bears. One has remember a male tiger, faster and more agile than an adult male brown bear, is able to leave a fight not going his way. Not always true for a male brown bear. Meaning there's statistics (referring to fights with a fatal outcome) and reality (unknown, but debilitating injuries preventing a tiger to hunt) and also meaning we don't know.
Apex posted a lot of (good) information about interactions between Amur tigers and brown bears. The info suggests relations between male tigers and male brown bears could be more complicated than we think. There are quite many videos showing male tigers and male brown bears visiting the same 'post office' (tree) to investigate, and leave, scent marks. There are videos showing male tigers patrolling their turf and large male brown bears following them from a distance. The large male tiger known as 'The Beast' and the large male brown bear visiting the same tree in Anyuisky most probably were well aware of each other. Apart from the two incidents mentioned above, however, I never read anything about a serious fight between an adult male tiger and an adult male brown bear. Meaning adult males of both species are able to coexist. Clashes do occur every now and then, but close proximiy doesn't seem to be the main reason. If anything, a fight seems to be personal. Meaning the protocol could have been violated.
As to clashes between male tigers and male bears. The outcome of a fight between adult males of the same species often is determined by age and size. Most posters think it isn't any different in fights between males of different species. As Ussuri male brown bears are significantly heavier than adult male tigers (at the level of averages), bear posters think this advantage is the main reason male tigers try to avoid fights. Judging from the size of both male tigers and the male brown bears they killed (see above), however, this doesn't seem to be the case. At least, not in both incidents described above. Other observations, however, suggest a large male brown bear does have an advantage. Meaning the information is contradicting and also meaning we don't know enough to get to a conclusion. We do, however, know male tigers at times are prepared to confront even a large male brown bear. Their ability in a fight, however, doesn't mean a clash is a formality. Far from it. All in all, I'd say the actual behaviour of both (mutual avoidance) is the best source of information.
What I'm ultimately saying is a good post isn't a result of a hunch or reading a few pages here and there. If you really want to get to a conclusion on a specific issue, it's imperative to read as many articles and books as you can. It's the only reliable way to confirm or reject a 'hypothesis'. When you do, you'll quickly notice biologists not seldom (seem to) contradict themselves and each other. We don't expect members to produce interesting posts time and again, but we do expect them to respect a few basic rules and one of them is to stay away from firm statements.
Both PC and Apex have some credit, but that doesn't mean they can do as they please all the time. PC seems to invest most of his time in questioning just about everything these days. Not seldom, it results in scratching the edges. I'm not saying he's involved in misinformation, but he's closing in at times. That's still apart from the deteriorating climate and the decision to ignore rules and mods. Apex isn't involved in misinformation, but the way he tends to present information not seldom results in a, ehh, somewhat distorted view. And plenty of animosity. I asked him to change this habit, but he too decided to ignore the advice offered. Over the years, it resulted a quite a few 'debates', a lot of problems and even more scalps. It stops here and now. Meaning I'm done investing (a lot of) time in solving problems that can easily be avoided.
Are we asking too much? Most members of Wildfact are interested in wild lions. They debate all the time and it resulted in a lot of interesting threads. The lion section generates much more traffic than all other sections combined and many members (and readers) interested in lions told us the lion section is the best they know of. By a decent margin. There have been a few problems here and there, but members and mods usually quickly dealt with them. Meaning it can be done.
Your bias and lazy moderation has directly led to numerous good posters leaving and it has now led to another. You’re solely responsible for what this once thriving forum has become.
And to the other posters here still chugging along, good luck and I wish you all the best. I hope you all continue to invest some time into learning about the natural world, I know I will.
I’m out!
The following 2 users Like Pckts's post:2 users Like Pckts's post • peter, Tyger
03-10-2024, 12:29 AM( This post was last modified: 03-10-2024, 12:32 AM by peter )
(03-09-2024, 07:37 PM)Pckts Wrote:
(02-15-2024, 09:14 AM)peter Wrote: ABOUT POSTING, RULES AND BANS
PC and Apex were involved in a debate. It started somewhere, moved to the tiger thread and continued in 'Amur Tigers' and 'Tiger Predation'. Clashes of this nature often affect the climate. Members noticed and we noticed. After some time, I asked them to call it a day. It had no effect. I asked again, offered an advice and, to make sure, added a warning. This time, Apex acted. Meaning he took a two week break. PC continued as if nothing had happened, meaning he's not that interested in rules, mods and good advice. Also meaning he qualified for a ban. Not two, but four weeks. If he returns and ignores a mod again, it's curtains.
Apex has been involved in quite a few debates. He knows we're not too keen on them over here, but enters one at every opportunity. Every time, the result is similar in that it affects the climate and every time a member pays. Apex eluded the ban dance, but this was the last time.
As for those asking questions (Pantherinae and Spalea). You'll find one part of the answer in the rules section. Another part is on this page. Meaning it's right in front of your eyes. You would have noticed if you would have taken the trouble to read a few posts, that is.
This forum is about the natural world. Good info is the aim. We don't mind the occasional debate, provided you use arguments and sound reasoning. Remember it's about respect. Respect for good info, respect for the rules of engagement and respect for the one you're debating. If it doesnt work out as expected, you can agree to disagree, withdraw or, when rules have been violated, inform the mods. They, no matter what, have the last word. Any member ignoring rules and mods will be warned. If the warning is ignored, a ban wil follow.
As to the debate that resulted in problems. According to PC, a bull gaur about to die informs all tigers in the neighbourhood. This is the protocol tigers and gaurs agreed on a long time ago. As tigers usually are the first to arrive at his remains, it seems they killed the gaur. Not so, PC says. Apex, on the other hand, suggests even tigresses routinely kill bull gaurs for breakfast. Both are wrong and if they aren't, they're scratching the edges of reality.
The answer to all questions about tigers and gaurs is in recent articles and observations of hunters, rangers, villagers, tourists and photographers. Biologists usually need years to get to conclusions, whereas others write about an incident they witnessed on a particular day. All that is without the countless exceptions (referring to differences between individuals and differences between regions). Meaning you have to do quite a bit of reading to get to a conclusion. As this is a time consuming process, we don't mind members discussing incidents, as long as they remember there's a difference between an incident and a pattern.
There are many authentic reports about tigers hunting large herbivores in southeast Asia, PC, and I mean many. That's still without 'specialists' hunting big herbivores only. Read the books of Bazé, Berg and countless others. That, Apex, doesn't mean every adult tiger is able to hamstring every large herbivore at will. The outcome of a struggle depends. There are reliable records of 'specialists' killed by gaurs and wild buffaloes. Find reliable accounts before getting to a conclusion. If you read them, chances are you'll conclude just about anything is possible in a struggle between two large animals. Professional hunters come out on top more often, but in the end anything is possible.
Same (referring to reading in order to get to an overview and an opinion) for interactions between tigers and bears. In most regions of southeast Asia, tigers and bears coexist. Tigers not often hunt them, but there are bear 'specialists' in most districts and regions. Himalayan black bears, however, are not on the menu in southeast Asia. The main difference between that region and the Russian Far East is in the number of bears. As a result of the abundance of bears in the Russian Far East, tigers and bears meet much more often than in southeast Asia. Bears are professional scavengers, meaning they'll use any opportunity to feed on a kill, including tiger kills. Every now and then, clashes erupt. Although the outcome differs, tigers win most fights. They have to if they want to survive (referring to the long and harsh winters and the very real risk of energy deficits and starvation), meaning the local conditions resulted in selection over time. Culture, PC. In contrast to tigers living in northern India, Nepal, Bhutan and even Vietnam, tigers in the Russian Far East (learned to) hunt Himalayan black bears. According to those who know, tigers hunt Himalayan black bears of all ages and sizes. For more info, read recent articles written by Russian biologists. There's a nice series about Himalayan black bears (referring to You Tube) in which Kolchin features. He knows about tigers and bears and that's an understatement.
Male Amur tigers occasionally hunt brown bears up to the size of an adult female. Most of them are experienced old males, but immature tigers and young adults also are involved. Tiger 'Pavlik' was arrested for a violation when he was in his teens. After rehabilitation and a promise to stay out of trouble, he was released. The collar said he killed both male Himalayan black bears and female Ussuri brown bears. This although he wasn't full-grown. Recent information suggests there are quite many young adult males occasionally hunting bears.
Do adult male Amur tigers and Ussuri male brown bears clash as well? The answer is affirmative, but only very few seem to result in casualties. At least, not in the period 1992-2016. A year later, in 2017, a large male brown bear suddenly disappeared after harrassing tigress 'Rachel' and her cubs for a prolonged period of time. It happened in the territory of biologist Batalov. Bear posters said the bear was shot, but Batalov, as experienced as they come, is convinced the big bear was killed and eaten by male tiger 'Ochkarik'. Five years later, in November 2022, in the same region, a male brown bear with a palm width of 18 cm (!) was killed by male tiger 'Odyr'. This time, experienced rangers found evidence of a (prolonged) fight in the snow. A few years later, 'Odyr' apparently harrassed a hibernating male bear. For some reason, the attempt was aborted. The bear left to hibernate elsewhere. Some posters think the size of the bear might have been a factor.
Are both incidents indicative? Although most authorities think a tiger has the best chance in a fight, male tigers and male brown bears seem to disagree. Meaning they try to avoid discussions. For good reasons, as even a draw, days later, can result in severe infections and injuries. In autopsy reports of male tigers found dead in the period just before the Siberian Tiger Project started, you'll find descriptions of (paw) injuries that could have been caused by (brown) bears. One has remember a male tiger, faster and more agile than an adult male brown bear, is able to leave a fight not going his way. Not always true for a male brown bear. Meaning there's statistics (referring to fights with a fatal outcome) and reality (unknown, but debilitating injuries preventing a tiger to hunt) and also meaning we don't know.
Apex posted a lot of (good) information about interactions between Amur tigers and brown bears. The info suggests relations between male tigers and male brown bears could be more complicated than we think. There are quite many videos showing male tigers and male brown bears visiting the same 'post office' (tree) to investigate, and leave, scent marks. There are videos showing male tigers patrolling their turf and large male brown bears following them from a distance. The large male tiger known as 'The Beast' and the large male brown bear visiting the same tree in Anyuisky most probably were well aware of each other. Apart from the two incidents mentioned above, however, I never read anything about a serious fight between an adult male tiger and an adult male brown bear. Meaning adult males of both species are able to coexist. Clashes do occur every now and then, but close proximiy doesn't seem to be the main reason. If anything, a fight seems to be personal. Meaning the protocol could have been violated.
As to clashes between male tigers and male bears. The outcome of a fight between adult males of the same species often is determined by age and size. Most posters think it isn't any different in fights between males of different species. As Ussuri male brown bears are significantly heavier than adult male tigers (at the level of averages), bear posters think this advantage is the main reason male tigers try to avoid fights. Judging from the size of both male tigers and the male brown bears they killed (see above), however, this doesn't seem to be the case. At least, not in both incidents described above. Other observations, however, suggest a large male brown bear does have an advantage. Meaning the information is contradicting and also meaning we don't know enough to get to a conclusion. We do, however, know male tigers at times are prepared to confront even a large male brown bear. Their ability in a fight, however, doesn't mean a clash is a formality. Far from it. All in all, I'd say the actual behaviour of both (mutual avoidance) is the best source of information.
What I'm ultimately saying is a good post isn't a result of a hunch or reading a few pages here and there. If you really want to get to a conclusion on a specific issue, it's imperative to read as many articles and books as you can. It's the only reliable way to confirm or reject a 'hypothesis'. When you do, you'll quickly notice biologists not seldom (seem to) contradict themselves and each other. We don't expect members to produce interesting posts time and again, but we do expect them to respect a few basic rules and one of them is to stay away from firm statements.
Both PC and Apex have some credit, but that doesn't mean they can do as they please all the time. PC seems to invest most of his time in questioning just about everything these days. Not seldom, it results in scratching the edges. I'm not saying he's involved in misinformation, but he's closing in at times. That's still apart from the deteriorating climate and the decision to ignore rules and mods. Apex isn't involved in misinformation, but the way he tends to present information not seldom results in a, ehh, somewhat distorted view. And plenty of animosity. I asked him to change this habit, but he too decided to ignore the advice offered. Over the years, it resulted a quite a few 'debates', a lot of problems and even more scalps. It stops here and now. Meaning I'm done investing (a lot of) time in solving problems that can easily be avoided.
Are we asking too much? Most members of Wildfact are interested in wild lions. They debate all the time and it resulted in a lot of interesting threads. The lion section generates much more traffic than all other sections combined and many members (and readers) interested in lions told us the lion section is the best they know of. By a decent margin. There have been a few problems here and there, but members and mods usually quickly dealt with them. Meaning it can be done.
Your bias and lazy moderation has directly led to numerous good posters leaving and it has now led to another. You’re solely responsible for what this once thriving forum has become.
And to the other posters here still chugging along, good luck and I wish you all the best. I hope you all continue to invest some time into learning about the natural world, I know I will.
I’m out!
PC
You're one of the very few who saw wild jaguars in Brazil, wild lions in Africa and wild tigers in central India. Your contributions about your experiences were very interesting and much appreciated by many. Same for your contributions in the discussions that followed. Consistent quality was the main reason I invited you to join the team some years ago.
I hope you'll have more opportunities to see wild big cats in their natural habitat. All the best on behalf all,
03-12-2024, 07:53 PM( This post was last modified: 03-18-2024, 08:51 PM by Apex Titan )
(02-15-2024, 09:14 AM)peter Wrote: ABOUT POSTING, RULES AND BANS
PC and Apex were involved in a debate. It started somewhere, moved to the tiger thread and continued in 'Amur Tigers' and 'Tiger Predation'. Clashes of this nature often affect the climate. Members noticed and we noticed. After some time, I asked them to call it a day. It had no effect. I asked again, offered an advice and, to make sure, added a warning. This time, Apex acted. Meaning he took a two week break. PC continued as if nothing had happened, meaning he's not that interested in rules, mods and good advice. Also meaning he qualified for a ban. Not two, but four weeks. If he returns and ignores a mod again, it's curtains.
Apex has been involved in quite a few debates. He knows we're not too keen on them over here, but enters one at every opportunity. Every time, the result is similar in that it affects the climate and every time a member pays. Apex eluded the ban dance, but this was the last time.
As for those asking questions (Pantherinae and Spalea). You'll find one part of the answer in the rules section. Another part is on this page. Meaning it's right in front of your eyes. You would have noticed if you would have taken the trouble to read a few posts, that is.
This forum is about the natural world. Good info is the aim. We don't mind the occasional debate, provided you use arguments and sound reasoning. Remember it's about respect. Respect for good info, respect for the rules of engagement and respect for the one you're debating. If it doesnt work out as expected, you can agree to disagree, withdraw or, when rules have been violated, inform the mods. They, no matter what, have the last word. Any member ignoring rules and mods will be warned. If the warning is ignored, a ban wil follow.
As to the debate that resulted in problems. According to PC, a bull gaur about to die informs all tigers in the neighbourhood. This is the protocol tigers and gaurs agreed on a long time ago. As tigers usually are the first to arrive at his remains, it seems they killed the gaur. Not so, PC says. Apex, on the other hand, suggests even tigresses routinely kill bull gaurs for breakfast. Both are wrong and if they aren't, they're scratching the edges of reality.
The answer to all questions about tigers and gaurs is in recent articles and observations of hunters, rangers, villagers, tourists and photographers. Biologists usually need years to get to conclusions, whereas others write about an incident they witnessed on a particular day. All that is without the countless exceptions (referring to differences between individuals and differences between regions). Meaning you have to do quite a bit of reading to get to a conclusion. As this is a time consuming process, we don't mind members discussing incidents, as long as they remember there's a difference between an incident and a pattern.
There are many authentic reports about tigers hunting large herbivores in southeast Asia, PC, and I mean many. That's still without 'specialists' hunting big herbivores only. Read the books of Bazé, Berg and countless others. That, Apex, doesn't mean every adult tiger is able to hamstring every large herbivore at will. The outcome of a struggle depends. There are reliable records of 'specialists' killed by gaurs and wild buffaloes. Find reliable accounts before getting to a conclusion. If you read them, chances are you'll conclude just about anything is possible in a struggle between two large animals. Professional hunters come out on top more often, but in the end anything is possible.
Same (referring to reading in order to get to an overview and an opinion) for interactions between tigers and bears. In most regions of southeast Asia, tigers and bears coexist. Tigers not often hunt them, but there are bear 'specialists' in most districts and regions. Himalayan black bears, however, are not on the menu in southeast Asia. The main difference between that region and the Russian Far East is in the number of bears. As a result of the abundance of bears in the Russian Far East, tigers and bears meet much more often than in southeast Asia. Bears are professional scavengers, meaning they'll use any opportunity to feed on a kill, including tiger kills. Every now and then, clashes erupt. Although the outcome differs, tigers win most fights. They have to if they want to survive (referring to the long and harsh winters and the very real risk of energy deficits and starvation), meaning the local conditions resulted in selection over time. Culture, PC. In contrast to tigers living in northern India, Nepal, Bhutan and even Vietnam, tigers in the Russian Far East (learned to) hunt Himalayan black bears. According to those who know, tigers hunt Himalayan black bears of all ages and sizes. For more info, read recent articles written by Russian biologists. There's a nice series about Himalayan black bears (referring to You Tube) in which Kolchin features. He knows about tigers and bears and that's an understatement.
Male Amur tigers occasionally hunt brown bears up to the size of an adult female. Most of them are experienced old males, but immature tigers and young adults also are involved. Tiger 'Pavlik' was arrested for a violation when he was in his teens. After rehabilitation and a promise to stay out of trouble, he was released. The collar said he killed both male Himalayan black bears and female Ussuri brown bears. This although he wasn't full-grown. Recent information suggests there are quite many young adult males occasionally hunting bears.
Do adult male Amur tigers and Ussuri male brown bears clash as well? The answer is affirmative, but only very few seem to result in casualties. At least, not in the period 1992-2016. A year later, in 2017, a large male brown bear suddenly disappeared after harrassing tigress 'Rachel' and her cubs for a prolonged period of time. It happened in the territory of biologist Batalov. Bear posters said the bear was shot, but Batalov, as experienced as they come, is convinced the big bear was killed and eaten by male tiger 'Ochkarik'. Five years later, in November 2022, in the same region, a male brown bear with a palm width of 18 cm (!) was killed by male tiger 'Odyr'. This time, experienced rangers found evidence of a (prolonged) fight in the snow. A few years later, 'Odyr' apparently harrassed a hibernating male bear. For some reason, the attempt was aborted. The bear left to hibernate elsewhere. Some posters think the size of the bear might have been a factor.
Are both incidents indicative? Although most authorities think a tiger has the best chance in a fight, male tigers and male brown bears seem to disagree. Meaning they try to avoid discussions. For good reasons, as even a draw, days later, can result in severe infections and injuries. In autopsy reports of male tigers found dead in the period just before the Siberian Tiger Project started, you'll find descriptions of (paw) injuries that could have been caused by (brown) bears. One has remember a male tiger, faster and more agile than an adult male brown bear, is able to leave a fight not going his way. Not always true for a male brown bear. Meaning there's statistics (referring to fights with a fatal outcome) and reality (unknown, but debilitating injuries preventing a tiger to hunt) and also meaning we don't know.
Apex posted a lot of (good) information about interactions between Amur tigers and brown bears. The info suggests relations between male tigers and male brown bears could be more complicated than we think. There are quite many videos showing male tigers and male brown bears visiting the same 'post office' (tree) to investigate, and leave, scent marks. There are videos showing male tigers patrolling their turf and large male brown bears following them from a distance. The large male tiger known as 'The Beast' and the large male brown bear visiting the same tree in Anyuisky most probably were well aware of each other. Apart from the two incidents mentioned above, however, I never read anything about a serious fight between an adult male tiger and an adult male brown bear. Meaning adult males of both species are able to coexist. Clashes do occur every now and then, but close proximiy doesn't seem to be the main reason. If anything, a fight seems to be personal. Meaning the protocol could have been violated.
As to clashes between male tigers and male bears. The outcome of a fight between adult males of the same species often is determined by age and size. Most posters think it isn't any different in fights between males of different species. As Ussuri male brown bears are significantly heavier than adult male tigers (at the level of averages), bear posters think this advantage is the main reason male tigers try to avoid fights. Judging from the size of both male tigers and the male brown bears they killed (see above), however, this doesn't seem to be the case. At least, not in both incidents described above. Other observations, however, suggest a large male brown bear does have an advantage. Meaning the information is contradicting and also meaning we don't know enough to get to a conclusion. We do, however, know male tigers at times are prepared to confront even a large male brown bear. Their ability in a fight, however, doesn't mean a clash is a formality. Far from it. All in all, I'd say the actual behaviour of both (mutual avoidance) is the best source of information.
What I'm ultimately saying is a good post isn't a result of a hunch or reading a few pages here and there. If you really want to get to a conclusion on a specific issue, it's imperative to read as many articles and books as you can. It's the only reliable way to confirm or reject a 'hypothesis'. When you do, you'll quickly notice biologists not seldom (seem to) contradict themselves and each other. We don't expect members to produce interesting posts time and again, but we do expect them to respect a few basic rules and one of them is to stay away from firm statements.
Both PC and Apex have some credit, but that doesn't mean they can do as they please all the time. PC seems to invest most of his time in questioning just about everything these days. Not seldom, it results in scratching the edges. I'm not saying he's involved in misinformation, but he's closing in at times. That's still apart from the deteriorating climate and the decision to ignore rules and mods. Apex isn't involved in misinformation, but the way he tends to present information not seldom results in a, ehh, somewhat distorted view. And plenty of animosity. I asked him to change this habit, but he too decided to ignore the advice offered. Over the years, it resulted a quite a few 'debates', a lot of problems and even more scalps. It stops here and now. Meaning I'm done investing (a lot of) time in solving problems that can easily be avoided.
Are we asking too much? Most members of Wildfact are interested in wild lions. They debate all the time and it resulted in a lot of interesting threads. The lion section generates much more traffic than all other sections combined and many members (and readers) interested in lions told us the lion section is the best they know of. By a decent margin. There have been a few problems here and there, but members and mods usually quickly dealt with them. Meaning it can be done.
Peter, to be fair, you misrepresented me about one thing. Let me clarify. Not once have I ever stated or suggested that tigresses "routinely" kill bull gaurs. All my point was that even tigresses single-handedly hunt and kill bull gaurs, including large bulls. Which, as you know, is a fact reported and documented by numerous biologists and experts. Scientific studies also confirm that tigresses kill bull gaurs. However, it is usually male tigers that routinely kill bull gaurs.
And of course I know anything is possible in a struggle between two large dangerous animals. I've never stated or suggested otherwise. I'm also well aware of the cases of 'specialists' getting killed by bull gaurs and wild bull buffaloes, but most of those cases are old and exceptional. It's a fact that cases of bull gaurs and wild buffaloes killing tigers (including tigresses) in a fierce struggle are very rare. Despite adult gaurs being attacked regularly by tigers in various regions, the tiger, in vast majority of cases kills and eats the gaur.
This whole false notion that some people have that huge "alpha bulls" are "too big and strong" for a single big cat to kill is complete nonsense. Especially when mountains of hard evidence throughout history clearly proves otherwise.
Once a tiger, using its speed and agility, gets a death-grip on even a large bull gaur's neck or throat, despite the bull's immense size and strength, its very hard for the bull gaur to shake off the tiger. Large bovines are not built to kill, they're built to defend. And once a tiger break's through that defense (horns), its over. A predator has far superior skill and abilities in a fight. Also to add, Karanth's observations and studies showed that most adult gaur were attacked and killed by tigers in open spaces, not in dense forest or bush. There are also numerous videos and pictures of tigers and tigresses feeding on their adult gaur (bulls & females) kills, in which the gaur was killed out in the open areas and spaces.
There was an incident in 2019, of a large bull gaur that was killed in a "titanic battle" (as described by the eyewitness) by a tiger. Was the tiger injured from the battle? No.
As massive and dangerous a bull gaur or bull wild buffalo is, they are first and foremost a prey animal of the tiger. And the tiger is specifically built to routinely take down such large dangerous animals single-handedly, despite the risks. Many people only focus on how large, strong and dangerous the prey is, but fail to realize or understand just how incredibly lethal, skilled, well-armed and powerful the apex predator that hunts them is.
Size alone can be overrated as an anti-predator strategy: tigers routinely kill adult bull gaur which exceed the size of sub-adult male rhinos (Karanth):
Most of the prime adult gaurs (both sexes) killed by tigers were healthy specimens in good condition:
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
Anyone who denies the scientifically established fact that healthy bull gaurs are frequently hunted and killed by single tigers, is simply denying reality and facts.
A recent study published in 2020, showed that Indochinese tigers regularly hunt and kill adult gaurs (both sexes) and adult banteng (both sexes) in Thailand. Even though Southeast Asian gaur are the largest gaurs on earth. And Banteng bulls weigh up to 800 - 900 kg.
Interestingly, even though Indochinese tigers are smaller than Bengal tigers, they hunt adult gaur, including bulls, as often as the larger Bengals do. The small javan tigers (weighing only 100 kg) regularly preyed on adult banteng and killed huge banteng bulls weighing 825 kg. I can post all the evidence and sources from tiger biologists.
Sambar, banteng and gaur composed 95.1% of the Indochinese tigers diet; tigers mostly killed adult prey (67.6%), three times more frequently than juvenile prey:
It's clearly not just "specialists", tigers in general routinely prey on large adult bovines wherever they're available in high densities. In fact, studies consistently show that tigers always prefer hunting the largest prey animals.
And lastly, even the much larger, stronger and aggressive adult rhinos are on the tigers menu; The culprit of this adult rhino's death is clearly a tiger: (February, 2022)
As this case, as well as countless other cases & studies proves, size and weight is often very overrated by most people, while predatory skill, agility, weapons, aggression, speed and experience is underrated.
There are studies showing even cougars (115 - 220 lbs) killing prey animals 5-7 times their own size, like large bull elk and adult cow moose which are massive animals.
Quote:Same (referring to reading in order to get to an overview and an opinion) for interactions between tigers and bears. In most regions of southeast Asia, tigers and bears coexist. Tigers not often hunt them, but there are bear 'specialists' in most districts and regions. Himalayan black bears, however, are not on the menu in southeast Asia.
Himalayan black bears are certainly on the menu of tigers in Southeast Asia. In fact, in some areas and sites in Southeast Asia, both sun bears and Himalayan black bears are common prey of tigers. Read this interesting study:
The study states and strongly suggests that tigers are major predators of bears and commonly prey on bears throughout their distribution in the wild. Tigers were found to kill and consume sun bears or Asiatic black bears in all 4 sites where their diet was studied in Southeast Asia. Indochinese tigers indeed prey on Himalayan black bears, including full-grown adult bears of all ages and genders, whereas Malayan & Sumatran tigers hunt and eat adult sun bears of all ages and genders.
It's interesting that its not only the largest subspecies of tigers (Bengal & Amur) that will actively hunt bears, but the smaller subspecies of tigers (Indochinese, Sumatran & Malayan) will also actively hunt and kill bears.
*This image is copyright of its original author
The common consumption of bears by tigers was, of course, due to predation:
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
The large amount of bears in tiger diets in some regions indicate that tigers can be major predators of bears in some areas:
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
Tiger and leopard diets in Western Thailand
The Indochinese tigers habitually hunt large dangerous prey like large bovines, and Asiatic black bears are also included in their diet:
Tigers and prey recovery in Mae-Wong Khlong Lan National Park, Thailand
"Many other species of tiger prey were also caught on camera, including Asian golden cat, leopard cat, Asiatic black bear, large Indian civet, hog badger, porcupine, pig-tailed macaque, barking deer, wild pig, gaur and Asiatic jackal."
Asiatic black bear/tiger prey caught on camera in Thailand:
*This image is copyright of its original author
A bull gaur was also captured on camera in the National Park:
In addition, forest officials in Thailand and WCS officers found the remains of an adult Asiatic black bear that was hunted, killed and mostly devoured by a tiger:
"This time let's take a look at the prey of the tiger. From a patrol in the Kaeng Krachan forest area, Patrols and wildlife conservation officers (WCS) in Thailand have found signs of fighting. And found the remains of a large buffalo bear, presumably eaten by a tiger. It can be seen that tigers are strong enough to hunt large dangerous animals such as bears. It is another thing that confirms the integrity of Kaeng Krachan forest as well."
P.S: "The pictures may be scary. But it is a true story of nature."
Remains of the large black bear killed and mostly eaten by a tiger: (In Thailand, Asiatic black bears are called "Buffalo bears")
Yes, tigers and bears co-exist, but co-existence doesn't negate the fact that tigers commonly prey on various bear species throughout their range. Like biologist Sergey Kolchin said: "Bears are common prey of tigers". And as the evidence (above) confirms, Himalayan black bears are definitely on the menu of tigers in Southeast Asia.
All predators "co-exist" with their prey items, but that doesn't mean the co-existence is peaceful. Far from it. Its a predator-prey relationship. The tiger (apex predator) is clearly the dominant predator, while the bears (prey item) are common victims. In nature, there's always a hierarchy between predators of different species. Even the natives who have co-existed with tigers and bears for many thousands of years acknowledge this hierarchy and know, based on countless generations of observations and experiences, which animal reigns supreme over all other animals in the forest.
In Russia, it's a well known fact that Amur tigers reduce wolf populations to the point of localized extinction. When tiger numbers are scarce, wolf numbers rise significantly, but when tiger numbers rise, the wolf populations plummet significantly and become very scarce, due to predation and displacement by tigers.
Amur tigers regularly hunt and kill bears, and the pressure of tiger predation also regulates (Of course not to the same extent as wolves) the population of bears in the Primorye region and south of the Khabarovsk region. This is the tigers dominance as the apex predator of the Amur-Ussuri taiga.
In Europe, the apex predators of the forests are wolves and bears. When these two predators (especially wolves) disappear, there is a rapid growth in the ungulate populations, which makes the ecosystem collapse. In Primorye, if Amur tigers (the ecosystems apex predator) disappear, they will be replaced by bears and wolves.
This shows that Amur tigers clearly have a regulating affect on bear populations. If tigers disappear, the bears will become more abundant:
Sergey Aramilev also stated that tigers regulate the number of bears, wolves and other predators they prey on:
"It is also important that the tiger regulates the number of other predators - wolves, bears and others who fall under it's paw." - commented Sergey Aramilev , general director of the Amur Tiger Center.
Recently in the Khabarovsk region, tigers have reduced the number of bears; this is clear dominance from the Ussuri taiga's top predator - Amur tigers:
As to tiger-bear relations in Southeast Asia. Its not just 'specialists' who hunt bears in Southeast Asia, both sun bears and Asiatic black bears fall prey to tigers in general in Southeast Asia. The studies mention nothing about 'specialists' only hunting bears, studies clearly indicate that tigers in general will actively prey on bears, especially in certain countries, areas and regions in Southeast Asia. And of course, the Russian tigers take bear-hunting to another level by hunting and feasting on one of the largest species of bears on the planet - adult Ussuri brown bears.
Not to mention, the Himalayan black bears or 'Ussuri black bears' that Amur tigers habitually hunt, are the largest subspecies of Asiatic black bears on earth.
There are many videos of Himalayan black bears marking the same tree as both Amur tigers and brown bears, however, adult Himalayan black bears are still terrified of tigers, will flee up a tree whenever they encounter or sense a tigers presence, and are habitually hunted and eaten by tigers. The "co-existence" is far from peaceful. Like Sergey Kolchin also stated - the bears are living in a dangerous neighborhood among tigers in the forest.
Here's a large male black bear about to mark the same tree as an Amur tigress, the bear looks larger than the tigress, but, if this large male bear actually encountered a tiger (especially a male tiger) in the forest, he would immediately seek refuge in the tree's from the tiger:
*This image is copyright of its original author
Amur tigers and Ussuri brown bears also co-exist, but, tiger predation is still the main natural cause of brown bear mortality in the Sikhote-Alin.
I agree that male tigers and male brown bears usually avoid each other, however, I also have no doubt that from time to time, experienced adult male tigers do hunt and kill adult male brown bears, including large males. Recent cases (2017, 2022) confirm that even large male brown bears sometimes fall prey to tigers. The two tigers responsible for the killings were only medium-sized males, whereas the adult male brown bears they killed and ate were huge specimens.
At what frequency do tigers prey on adult male brown bears is anyone's guess, but it does happen, happened recently, which confirms that large adult male brown bears are also on the tigers menu. After all, adult brown bears (biologists never exclude adult male bears) are scientifically classified as a prey item of Amur tigers.
Monitoring, Survey, Utilization and Threats To The Populations Of Asiatic Black Bear and Brown Bear In Sikhote-Alin
The fact that tigers habitually hunt bears in the Russian Far East, commonly prey on bears in some regions, countries and areas of Southeast Asia, and also hunt bears in India, clearly indicates that tigers are major predators of various bear species and their greatest natural threat and enemy. So tiger and bear "co-existence" is only to a certain extent, because the tiger often views and treats bears as food.
It's also interesting that in recent years, more and more videos and accounts of tigers killing adult sloth bears keep on being recorded.
One example; a large adult male sloth bear killed and eaten by the young 4 year old tiger T-120:
*This image is copyright of its original author
Bears are large and very formidable carnivores, able to sometimes fight off tigers and drive them away, but due to heavy tiger predation on bears in various regions and countries, tigers winning most fights against brown bears, tiger predation being the main natural cause of brown bear mortality, and the tiger being the pinnacle of the food-chain/trophic level as the ecosystems apex predator, the tiger, overall, dominates bears wherever they share their range. This is an undeniable fact.
Whenever one predator is actively killing and consuming another predator, this is a clear form of dominance. If not, what on earth is "dominance" then?
John Vaillant explicitly talks about the Amur tigers dominance over brown bears and the ecosystem of the Ussuri taiga:
No matter how many large terrestrial predators co-exist within one ecosystem, most major ecosystems usually have that one top predator that is the alpha who dominates all. And the tiger is indeed the alpha apex predator that dominates, kills and eats all other predators throughout its range in the wild. - An umbrella species.
Just like how lions are the alpha terrestrial predators of the African savannah, jaguars in Central and South Americas, and polar bears in the arctic, etc.
This is why its extremely important and vital to conserve top-tier apex predators like the tiger (umbrella species), because by tigers killing and regulating the numbers of other predators and ungulate prey animals, the ecosystem will thrive and be balanced.
03-15-2024, 09:59 AM( This post was last modified: 03-15-2024, 10:24 AM by peter )
(03-13-2024, 02:50 AM)ganidat Wrote: The argument that tigers just happen to be eating gaurs that died on their own is a dumb argument.
If that was the case, we would also have cases of leopards eating gaurs, but we don't.
The probability of a leopard happening upon a dead gaur is the same as that of a tiger's.
Ever heard of irony? And what about cynicism? Difference?
You've been involved in crap right from the start. As you, apart from that, never contributed anything of interest as well, you qualified for a warning. Meaning you only need one more for a ban. I'm sure you won't disappoint us.
About the last sentence. Irony, cynicism or something else?
"Mighty three keeping a close eye on their kill. A Tiger is an apex predator and it preys on deer, boar, Gaur (Indian bison) and others. It is the biggest cat species. It is territorial and generally a solitary predator. It is also the largest among the big cats." - Sriramulu Ravi Kumar
