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Tiger Predation

Guatemala GuateGojira Offline
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How is possible that one single video of a female sloth bear fighting a tiger (and getting very mauled in the process) got so much publicity and media attention with hundreds of people watching it, but all the other several videos were we can see the tigers killing and eating those bears are ignored?

People make they own ideas and myths based in limited assumptions and ignore the evidences, that is why there is several people that says that tigers can't kill sloth bears in FB based in one damn video! It is just stupid.
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Ashutosh Offline
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@GuateGojira, the simple explanation is because sloth bears standing up to tigers is like an underdog punching a bigger opponent. It’s rare and against conventional dynamics we have associated and appropriated to these two species. 

Tigers kill and eat sloth bears regularly. Like, look at the coverage afforded to Zalim from Ranthambore raising his cubs. People thought such behaviour is so rare that it warranted an entire documentary on that matter. Except, we now know that tigers are very involved parents and raising cubs when mother has passed away is not that rare.
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United States Pckts Offline
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I disagree a bit, there are plenty of instances of Bears going out of their way to run off Tigers and succeeding in doing so. There are also plenty of accounts of Tigers running off Bears, I don't think either is unusual. But only one is a successful predator of the other which is what separates them. But if anyone has ever seen a big Male Sloth Bear in person, they'd be quick to say there is no way that is an easy kill. A Tiger is certainly risking quite a bit taking one on in a fair fight.
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Apex Titan Offline
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( This post was last modified: 06-22-2022, 07:13 PM by Apex Titan )

(06-21-2022, 09:36 PM)Pckts Wrote: I disagree a bit, there are plenty of instances of Bears going out of their way to run off Tigers and succeeding in doing so. There are also plenty of accounts of Tigers running off Bears, I don't think either is unusual. But only one is a successful predator of the other which is what separates them. But if anyone has ever seen a big Male Sloth Bear in person, they'd be quick to say there is no way that is an easy kill. A Tiger is certainly risking quite a bit taking one on in a fair fight.

Most of the videos of sloth bears running off tigers consist of bears chasing away young tiger cubs, juveniles and subadults. You can clearly see this in the videos. But there are videos of young tigers/juveniles chasing off adult sloth bears. I haven't seen any videos of sloth bears chasing away a full-grown adult male tiger.

A tiger can easily kill a big male sloth bear by ambush, as they swiftly kill larger species of bears (i.e. Brown bears & Ussuri black bears). In a fair fight against a big male sloth bear, the tiger certainly risks injuries, but still, in the end, the tiger will always kill and eat the bear. Although the large male bear will usually put up a fierce fight before being killed.

A mortal combat between a Bengal tiger and large male sloth bear is a mismatch in favour of the tiger. At best, the bear can fend off the tigers attack or injure the tiger, but in a fair fight to the death, the bear stands no chance.
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United States Pckts Offline
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(06-22-2022, 07:12 PM)Apex Titan Wrote:
(06-21-2022, 09:36 PM)Pckts Wrote: I disagree a bit, there are plenty of instances of Bears going out of their way to run off Tigers and succeeding in doing so. There are also plenty of accounts of Tigers running off Bears, I don't think either is unusual. But only one is a successful predator of the other which is what separates them. But if anyone has ever seen a big Male Sloth Bear in person, they'd be quick to say there is no way that is an easy kill. A Tiger is certainly risking quite a bit taking one on in a fair fight.

Most of the videos of sloth bears running off tigers consist of bears chasing away young tiger cubs, juveniles and subadults. You can clearly see this in the videos. But there are videos of young tigers/juveniles chasing off adult sloth bears. I haven't seen any videos of sloth bears chasing away a full-grown adult male tiger.

A tiger can easily kill a big male sloth bear by ambush, as they swiftly kill larger species of bears (i.e. Brown bears & Ussuri black bears). In a fair fight against a big male sloth bear, the tiger certainly risks injuries, but still, in the end, the tiger will always kill and eat the bear. Although the large male bear will usually put up a fierce fight before being killed.

A mortal combat between a Bengal tiger and large male sloth bear is a mismatch in favour of the tiger. At best, the bear can fend off the tigers attack or injure the tiger, but in a fair fight to the death, the bear stands no chance.

That’s not true, I can post numerous videos of Bears running off territorial males. 

And there is no easy kill of a large male Sloth Bear, nor is there an easy kill of any adult Bear. Maybe a Tiger gets lucky and is able to snap a neck in an ambush but more often than not the fight is going to be drawn out. This is why Tigers don’t regularly prey on Bears even though Bears would be easy to catch.
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Apex Titan Offline
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( This post was last modified: 06-22-2022, 08:13 PM by Apex Titan )

(06-22-2022, 07:25 PM)Pckts Wrote:
(06-22-2022, 07:12 PM)Apex Titan Wrote:
(06-21-2022, 09:36 PM)Pckts Wrote: I disagree a bit, there are plenty of instances of Bears going out of their way to run off Tigers and succeeding in doing so. There are also plenty of accounts of Tigers running off Bears, I don't think either is unusual. But only one is a successful predator of the other which is what separates them. But if anyone has ever seen a big Male Sloth Bear in person, they'd be quick to say there is no way that is an easy kill. A Tiger is certainly risking quite a bit taking one on in a fair fight.

Most of the videos of sloth bears running off tigers consist of bears chasing away young tiger cubs, juveniles and subadults. You can clearly see this in the videos. But there are videos of young tigers/juveniles chasing off adult sloth bears. I haven't seen any videos of sloth bears chasing away a full-grown adult male tiger.

A tiger can easily kill a big male sloth bear by ambush, as they swiftly kill larger species of bears (i.e. Brown bears & Ussuri black bears). In a fair fight against a big male sloth bear, the tiger certainly risks injuries, but still, in the end, the tiger will always kill and eat the bear. Although the large male bear will usually put up a fierce fight before being killed.

A mortal combat between a Bengal tiger and large male sloth bear is a mismatch in favour of the tiger. At best, the bear can fend off the tigers attack or injure the tiger, but in a fair fight to the death, the bear stands no chance.

That’s not true, I can post numerous videos of Bears running off territorial males. 

And there is no easy kill of a large male Sloth Bear, nor is there an easy kill of any adult Bear. Maybe a Tiger gets lucky and is able to snap a neck in an ambush but more often than not the fight is going to be drawn out. This is why Tigers don’t regularly prey on Bears even though Bears would be easy to catch.

"Numerous videos" of sloth bears running off territorial adult male tigers??  Show me?  Maybe one or two, but "numerous", no way.

Your argument is flawed because in Russia, the Amur tiger regularly preys on larger species of bears than sloth bears. In fact, its normal for Amur tigers to habitually hunt bears, and as the studies show, tigers frequently kill and eat adult bears. 

If most attacks on adult bears is going to result in a drawn out fight, then Amur tigers wouldn't bother hunting adult bears on a regular basis then. But they do, because tigers have the strength, skill, power and weaponry to take out an adult bear swiftly.

Just because Bengal tigers don't "regularly" prey on bears, doesn't mean that its because most attacks will result in a drawn out fight. Bengal tigers differ from Amur tigers. They specialize in hunting large herbivores like gaur, water buffalo, sambar etc... whereas the Amur tiger specializes much more in bear-hunting than their south Asian cousins.

You see this in other big cat subspecies too. Cougars and jaguars from one region can specialize in hunting more dangerous prey than cougars and jaguars from other regions. It all depends. Note, some Bengal tigers have become habitual bear-killers, which means they were able to easily kill adult sloth bears without any struggle in most cases.

An old, withered 17 year old Waghdoh, practically on his last legs, was able to kill an adult sloth bear with no problem. That says it all.
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United States Pckts Offline
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Ustaad, Matkasur, Tadoba Male on night drive, T57 from Ranth, Khali and the list goes on. All videos and accounts are mentioned on the Bear/Tiger interaction thread along with many adult Tigress being run off as well.

There is nothing “flawed” about it. We have far too many eye witness accounts. And the idea of Amir’s regularly preying on Bears is far more flawed. You have very few individuals mentioned who have allegedly done so with not a single one actually seen first hand. Who knows how the interaction actually went?

And it doesn’t matter what region or sub species you’re talking about, none of their diets consist mainly of bears, or even close to that. For one, Bears are apex so their numbers are much less than ungulates and two, they’re far more dangerous so they’ll be avoided more often than not. 

Wagdoh is a special Tiger, huge and with years of experience, the Bear he killed may have been adult but was much smaller than he, it’s easily seen in the photos. And no one is saying Tigers can’t prey on Bears but they certainly cannot do so without a major risk of injury which is why Bears can run off adult prime males no matter which sex of the Bear. But the fact remains, I’ve seen a large male Sloth Bear up close and I’ve seen enough interactions between them on video to put 2 and 2 together and there is absolutely no way a Big male Bear vs a Big male Tiger is going to have the same outcome every time. Both are going to get the better of exchanges from time to time.
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Pakistan Tenebris Offline
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Here is a summary of Sloth bear and tiger intereaction in points:-

1#. Tigers, generally, do not hunt sloth bears. (Richard lydekker, Panna and Chitral NP tiger's diet chart, Tej Kumar)

2#.
 Tigers mostly avoid face-to-face confrontations with Sloth bears. (Altre edizioni, Francis leukel)

3#. 
Sloth bears do not fear tigers abd tigers do not change their behaviour. Both do not have predator-prey relations. Tigers do not dominate and these bears roam without any tension. (Thapar, Garshiells, Yoganand)

4#. 
Tigers always kill by ambush and in face on fights, tigers normally flee rather than fighing the aggressive bears as bears can injury them seriously. (Adele conover, Joshi, accounts)

5#. 
There are many cases of Sloth bears defeating tigers in face-to-face, head-on fight, including sometimes multiple tigers and adult males like Genghis, Khali and Matkasur. (Accounts from experts and many videis from Youtube)

6#. 
There is one unconfirmed case of mature male tiger killed by Sloth bear. (Bareilly)

7#. 
Sloth bears very rarely have been known to drive away tigers from their kills. (Valmik Thapar)

8#. 
In fights, between sloth bears and tigers, the match is often draw. (Yoganand)

9#. 
In most sloth bear vs tiger fights, the large-hearted fighter bear has the upper hand. (Singinawa Jungle Lodge Reservation)
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Apex Titan Offline
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( This post was last modified: 06-23-2022, 07:02 PM by Apex Titan )

@Pckts 

Quote:Ustaad, Matkasur, Tadoba Male on night drive, T57 from Ranth, Khali and the list goes on. All videos and accounts are mentioned on the Bear/Tiger interaction thread along with many adult Tigress being run off as well.

Ustaad (T-24) got run off by a sloth bear when he was a young male aged 3-4 years old. Not a territorial adult male tiger, there's a big difference. I already know about the Matkasur case, but he initially fought the sloth bear. So there are not "numerous" videos of sloth bears chasing away territorial adult male tigers like you claimed, there's only very few.

Most of the videos clearly show sloth bears chasing away young juvenile tigers. Sometimes the young tigers look like their playing with the bear out of curiosity. There are also videos of adult sloth bears getting chased off by juvenile tigers and retreating back into the forest at the sight of a young tiger or tigress.

Quote:There is nothing “flawed” about it. We have far too many eye witness accounts. And the idea of Amir’s regularly preying on Bears is far more flawed. You have very few individuals mentioned who have allegedly done so with not a single one actually seen first hand. Who knows how the interaction actually went?

What?  Are you serious?  This is a very ignorant statement to make. Your just gonna ignore all the boat-loads of accounts, evidence and data I posted on this forum, which clearly proves that Amur tigers regularly prey on bears?  Its a scientifically established fact, determined by scientific field studies and modern research, that Amur tigers regularly hunt and kill bears. Bear-hunting has been recently observed and reported in several young tigers and tigresses as well.

So no, there's not only "very few individuals" who have "allegedly" done so, where did you hear this from? And what do you mean by "allegedly" ?  Are you trying to imply that biologists and researchers are making claims without any solid evidence? Are you saying these scientific peer-reviewed studies may be wrong?  Are you saying that biologists and zoologists mostly base their conclusions off of guesswork??

Amur tigers (many individuals) frequently kill and eat adult bears, and whats impressive is, they primarily hunt bears in the summer and fall, when bears are at their peak weights, condition and full strength. And in most cases, there's no drawn out fight as your merely speculating about. The tiger swiftly dispatches even an adult bear. And this fact clearly proves that your argument is badly flawed.

Quote:And it doesn’t matter what region or sub species you’re talking about, none of their diets consist mainly of bears, or even close to that. For one, Bears are apex so their numbers are much less than ungulates and two, they’re far more dangerous so they’ll be avoided more often than not. 

Your argument makes no sense. Again, in summer and autumn, in some regions and areas, bears are one of the most important prey items of the tigers diet. Making up a large significant portion, even more important than wild boar and red deer. Bears hibernate for at least 6 months in the taiga, making them inaccessible for tigers to hunt. But in summer and fall, bears are often taken by tigers.

And there are some tigers, who habitually hunt bears and prefer hunting and eating bears instead of ungulate prey animals. I've posted this information several times now.

How can bears be "apex" when they are regularly killed and eaten by tigers? Again, another flawed argument. Ussuri brown bears, Himalayan black bears and sloth bears are not considered to be "apex predators" in the same forests as tigers, because its well known that the tiger is the main natural enemy and predator of the bears. The bear becomes prey for the tiger.

Just very recently (March, 2022) Russian biologist and leading tiger expert, Pavel Fomenko, stated that tigers often hunt bears for a "fat tasty steak". Franz Hafner in his new documentary on Amur tigers (2021) also states that in other regions of Russia, which are devoid of tigers, bears are considered to be "apex predators", but in the Ussuri taiga, bears are no longer apex predators, because they get hunted and killed by tigers. Chris Morgan, a world renowned bear ecologist & expert, also stated that back in the U.S. the bears he studies are at the top of the food-chain, but when there are tigers in the woods, bears are on the menu.

Wildlife biologist & large carnivore specialist, Aletris Neils also stated: "You think of bears as top of the food-chain, but not where there's tigers."

So only you consider bears to be "apex" in the same forest as tigers, which makes absolutely no sense. But according to actual experts and authorities, bears are food for tigers.

Quote:Wagdoh is a special Tiger, huge and with years of experience, the Bear he killed may have been adult but was much smaller than he, it’s easily seen in the photos. And no one is saying Tigers can’t prey on Bears but they certainly cannot do so without a major risk of injury which is why Bears can run off adult prime males no matter which sex of the Bear. But the fact remains, I’ve seen a large male Sloth Bear up close and I’ve seen enough interactions between them on video to put 2 and 2 together and there is absolutely no way a Big male Bear vs a Big male Tiger is going to have the same outcome every time. Both are going to get the better of exchanges from time to time.

Yes, Waghdoh was a special tiger and was massive, however, he was very old and withered when he killed the sloth bear. Its not like he was an oldish tiger around 12 years old, he was 17 years old and still killed an adult sloth bear with no problems. Experienced tigers can swiftly kill even large adult bears, just like how experienced tigers can swiftly kill adult gaurs and buffaloes.

I'm not talking about skirmishes between big male sloth bears and tigers, I'm talking about serious fights to the death, in which the bear would stand no chance, period. The tiger is too big, too powerful, too armed and a far superior and skilled killer. A mortal combat situation is nothing but a death sentence for even a big male sloth bear.

Or are you trying to tell me that a big male sloth bear (150-170 kg) is gonna sometimes kill a big male tiger (220-300 kg) in a fight to the death?...  Because that would be ridiculous. Even the average male tiger is just too big and powerful for a large male sloth bear.

According to Valmik Thapar's observations, in direct confrontation, its the sloth bear that usually turns and flee's:


*This image is copyright of its original author


https://archive.org/details/tigerportraitofp00thap
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United States Pckts Offline
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( This post was last modified: 06-23-2022, 11:00 PM by Pckts )

@Apex Titan 

Quote:Ustaad (T-24) got run off by a sloth bear when he was a young male aged 3-4 years old. Not a territorial adult male tiger, there's a big difference. I already know about the Matkasur case, but he initially fought the sloth bear. So there are not "numerous" videos of sloth bears chasing away territorial adult male tigers like you claimed, there's only very few.

Most of the videos clearly show sloth bears chasing away young juvenile tigers. Sometimes the young tigers look like their playing with the bear out of curiosity. There are also videos of adult sloth bears getting chased off by juvenile tigers and retreating back into the forest at the sight of a young tiger or tigress.
Ustaad was over 4 at the time and was also mating with a Female. So not only was he ran off during mating but both of them were actually ran off.
On top of that, I literally named 4 off the top of my head and that was just territory holding adult males, I could have doubled that amount for adult females and could add many more by doing even more due diligence. So the point being, your claim of this 
Quote:Ustaad (T-24) got run off by a sloth bear when he was a young male aged 3-4 years old. Not a territorial adult male tiger, there's a big difference. I already know about the Matkasur case, but he initially fought the sloth bear. So there are not "numerous" videos of sloth bears chasing away territorial adult male tigers like you claimed, there's only very few.

Most of the videos clearly show sloth bears chasing away young juvenile tigers. Sometimes the young tigers look like their playing with the bear out of curiosity. There are also videos of adult sloth bears getting chased off by juvenile tigers and retreating back into the forest at the sight of a young tiger or tigress.
is wrong. 

Quote:There are also videos of adult sloth bears getting chased off by juvenile tigers and retreating back into the forest at the sight of a young tiger or tigress.
I never said there wasn't, but I can all but guarantee you that there are more of Bears engaging and running off Tigers than the other way around. 

Quote:Your just gonna ignore all the boat-loads of accounts, evidence and data I posted on this forum, which clearly proves that Amur tigers regularly prey on bears?  Its a scientifically established fact, determined by scientific field studies and modern research, that Amur tigers regularly hunt and kill bears. Bear-hunting has been recently observed and reported in several young tigers and tigresses as well.
You don't seem to know how to qualify "evidence"
You think accounts with no eye witness proof or verifiable data counts as "evidence."
This is shown by you posting Valmik blanket claim.
I can post numerous eye witness accounts and videos, images and so on of real encounters showing that the relationship is far from one sided. I also have access to far more people who actually safari there often on top of doing it my self and getting numerous first hand accounts from guides and naturalists. 

Quote:Amur tigers (many individuals) frequently kill and eat adult bears, and whats impressive is, they primarily hunt bears in the summer and fall, when bears are at their peak weights, condition and full strength. And in most cases, there's no drawn out fight as your merely speculating about. The tiger swiftly dispatches even an adult bear. And this fact clearly proves that your argument is badly flawed.
What do you consider "frequently?"
Because as of now I've seen 2-3 instances of bears being predated on. And on top of that, even fewer of actual encounters and more so fecal samples which will never give you a true understanding of what occurred, the age or sex of the victim or if it were a scavenged carcass or not.

Quote:gain, in summer and autumn, in some regions and areas, bears are one of the most important prey items of the tigers diet. Making up a large significant portion, even more important than wild boar and red deer. Bears hibernate for at least 6 months in the taiga, making them inaccessible for tigers to hunt. But in summer and fall, bears are often taken by tigers.
Show me what study states that Bears make up a significant portion of a Tigers diet. On top of that, explain the process they went about determining it and the data shown to back it.  

Quote:Just very recently (March, 2022) Russian biologist and leading tiger expert, Pavel Fomenko, stated that tigers often hunt bears for a "fat tasty steak". Franz Hafner in his new documentary on Amur tigers (2021) also states that in other regions of Russia, which are devoid of tigers, bears are considered to be "apex predators", but in the Ussuri taiga, bears are no longer apex predators, because they get hunted and killed by tigers. Chris Morgan, a world renowned bear ecologist & expert, also stated that back in the U.S. the bears he studies are at the top of the food-chain, but when there are tigers in the woods, bears are on the menu.
Again, this isn't backed by fact, this is opinion. What evidence does Pavel have to state that? How many first hand accounts has he seen or heard of? You seem to put too much stock in their title and not enough in actual occurrences. Biologists can be sensationalists and make assumptions just like the rest of us. Which is why when actual predation studies come out, they contradict many so called "rules of nature" after the fact. 

Instead of quoting blanket statements that have no factual evidence, present actual data that back your claim. I.E. Research papers, eye witness accounts, videos, carcasses, hearsay and so on.

Quote:I'm talking about serious fights to the death, in which the bear would stand no chance, period. The tiger is too big, too powerful, too armed and a far superior and skilled killer. A mortal combat situation is nothing but a death sentence for even a big male sloth bear.



Right, because the small Female Sloth Bear wasn't fighting for her life against Matkasur. Again, I've seen a big, Male Sloth Bear in person and I've seen a big Male Tiger in person, they are comparable. Obviously a Tiger is bigger but not by as much as you think and in regards to more powerful, the fact that Bears run off Tigers often enough prove that the Tiger respects their power. You know the only other animals that run off Tigers? Gaur, W. Buffalo, Rhino and Elephant. All of which substantially more powerful than a Tiger. 

Long story short, you sensationalize the Tiger too much. The Tiger is the Apex predator of it's terrain but the Bear is a serious threat at any point which is why Sloth Bears don't run fast, climb trees, live in herds or sneak about yet they share the same territory with big male Tigers and do so in almost every park that exists regardless of the Tiger population.
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Sri Lanka Apollo Away
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(02-18-2020, 10:52 PM)Shadow Wrote:
(02-18-2020, 06:30 PM)Rage2277 Wrote:
(02-18-2020, 03:07 PM)Shadow Wrote:
(02-18-2020, 05:57 AM)Rage2277 Wrote:
(02-18-2020, 05:40 AM)Shadow Wrote:
(02-18-2020, 05:29 AM)Rage2277 Wrote: i mean..there's more than enough solid cases of tigers killing adult gaur with bulls they usually just hamstring and eat them alive like in the pic of munna with his bull kill

All people choose what they keep solid themselves. I might be more critical than others. I do believe, that tigers kill these animals, but I´m not at all convinced, that all claimed cases are clear. But this one is for me solid. Some others too, but since so rare are clear, this kind which have been examined are very interesting for me.

idk..it's pretty clear they were killed..when ever i see big cats with dead bovines i never assume they found them these animals aren't just getting sick and dropping dead..that's actually rare..like what are the odds..gaur or buffalo like all other prey of big cats die to predation more than anything else

Lions are known eat for instance elephants, which have died to natural causes, not predated. I don´t see any reason to doubt, that any other predators would pass "free meal" when noticing such. Many herbivores die to natural causes, there are simply too many of them to be all hunted by predators. So when I see a lion or tiger eating elephant or rhino or let´s say hippo, the first thought in my mind isn´t that they killed those animals, when we are talking about adults. They are simply so big and strong, that it feels more probable, that predator has found the carcass, especially with elephants and big rhinos. When we look at let´s say gaurs, as I said, I don´t see it impossible at all. But when talking about big bulls, I don´t take it for granted, that every carcass eaten by a tiger has been killed by it. For sure some have been, I don´t see it as something impossible, but it´s not easy either and I doubt that all tigers are able to do it. And hamstring is a term often used, but there are controversial opinions about it too. Some say, that it happens, when and if it happens more by accident than on purpose, while chasing. I have to say, that I can understand both sides, it´s far from easy to do too accurate things while running in full speed, but still some individuals show time to time very impressive skills. 

I wish, that some day we would see at least some photos in which a tiger and bull gaur "on action", but that obviously is very difficult thing and most probably most serious hunts concerning them happen in nighttime. But who knows if one day someone is lucky enough. Some luck is needed, when we are talking about rare things happening in covered terrain in dark.
elephant,rhino and hippo are in diff leagues to gaur the adults of these animals can't be killed by throat bites and hamstringing but adult gaur male or female can be killed,have been killed and do get killed by these methods and hamstringing isn't something that happens in a chase it's nothing complex the tigers literally chew off the tendons of the back legs to immobilize the gaur and just eat them alive or go for the neck after, that is something they intentionally do it's pretty obvious..they've even done it to smaller prey like sambar and nilgai lions do it too but not as often as tigers

You see it that way and I told how I see it. This is how it often is, when there is something like this. What is for you obvious isn´t quite the same for me and I wait (and hope) to see more one day. A fight between a tiger and a gaur bull is in many ways the ultimate challenge for tiger. Gaur is quite a package of relatively good movability, strength and size. Some say that cape buffalo is more dangerous and more aggressive. Can be, but gaurs are in average something like 100 kg more and as many examples show, when they are angry, far from "nice old man" and have all what it takes to give back. Hard and fast, if they aren´t taken by complete surprise to the ground. And as cape buffalos have shown, that big animal isn´t easy to keep down.

Anyway it´s not the end of the world if we see this slightly differently, I would bet that we both would like to see more of these two one day :)  But they don´t live in savannah so it might take some time... :/

I guess the average difference is much more than 100 Kg.


Gaur


*This image is copyright of its original author




African Buffalo

100 Cape Buffaloes collected from Crocodile Ridge, Kruger National Park.
Average around 620 Kg (35 Males)


*This image is copyright of its original author
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Sri Lanka Apollo Away
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(03-23-2020, 05:49 PM)Rage2277 Wrote:



 a better look at that big kazi male


He is HUGE.
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( This post was last modified: 06-24-2022, 05:03 PM by LonePredator )

(06-23-2022, 09:58 PM)Pckts Wrote: @Apex Titan 

Quote:Ustaad (T-24) got run off by a sloth bear when he was a young male aged 3-4 years old. Not a territorial adult male tiger, there's a big difference. I already know about the Matkasur case, but he initially fought the sloth bear. So there are not "numerous" videos of sloth bears chasing away territorial adult male tigers like you claimed, there's only very few.

Most of the videos clearly show sloth bears chasing away young juvenile tigers. Sometimes the young tigers look like their playing with the bear out of curiosity. There are also videos of adult sloth bears getting chased off by juvenile tigers and retreating back into the forest at the sight of a young tiger or tigress.
Ustaad was over 4 at the time and was also mating with a Female. So not only was he ran off during mating but both of them were actually ran off.
On top of that, I literally named 4 off the top of my head and that was just territory holding adult males, I could have doubled that amount for adult females and could add many more by doing even more due diligence. So the point being, your claim of this 
Quote:Ustaad (T-24) got run off by a sloth bear when he was a young male aged 3-4 years old. Not a territorial adult male tiger, there's a big difference. I already know about the Matkasur case, but he initially fought the sloth bear. So there are not "numerous" videos of sloth bears chasing away territorial adult male tigers like you claimed, there's only very few.

Most of the videos clearly show sloth bears chasing away young juvenile tigers. Sometimes the young tigers look like their playing with the bear out of curiosity. There are also videos of adult sloth bears getting chased off by juvenile tigers and retreating back into the forest at the sight of a young tiger or tigress.
is wrong. 

Quote:There are also videos of adult sloth bears getting chased off by juvenile tigers and retreating back into the forest at the sight of a young tiger or tigress.
I never said there wasn't, but I can all but guarantee you that there are more of Bears engaging and running off Tigers than the other way around. 

Quote:Your just gonna ignore all the boat-loads of accounts, evidence and data I posted on this forum, which clearly proves that Amur tigers regularly prey on bears?  Its a scientifically established fact, determined by scientific field studies and modern research, that Amur tigers regularly hunt and kill bears. Bear-hunting has been recently observed and reported in several young tigers and tigresses as well.
You don't seem to know how to qualify "evidence"
You think accounts with no eye witness proof or verifiable data counts as "evidence."
This is shown by you posting Valmik blanket claim.
I can post numerous eye witness accounts and videos, images and so on of real encounters showing that the relationship is far from one sided. I also have access to far more people who actually safari there often on top of doing it my self and getting numerous first hand accounts from guides and naturalists. 

Quote:Amur tigers (many individuals) frequently kill and eat adult bears, and whats impressive is, they primarily hunt bears in the summer and fall, when bears are at their peak weights, condition and full strength. And in most cases, there's no drawn out fight as your merely speculating about. The tiger swiftly dispatches even an adult bear. And this fact clearly proves that your argument is badly flawed.
What do you consider "frequently?"
Because as of now I've seen 2-3 instances of bears being predated on. And on top of that, even fewer of actual encounters and more so fecal samples which will never give you a true understanding of what occurred, the age or sex of the victim or if it were a scavenged carcass or not.

Quote:gain, in summer and autumn, in some regions and areas, bears are one of the most important prey items of the tigers diet. Making up a large significant portion, even more important than wild boar and red deer. Bears hibernate for at least 6 months in the taiga, making them inaccessible for tigers to hunt. But in summer and fall, bears are often taken by tigers.
Show me what study states that Bears make up a significant portion of a Tigers diet. On top of that, explain the process they went about determining it and the data shown to back it.  

Quote:Just very recently (March, 2022) Russian biologist and leading tiger expert, Pavel Fomenko, stated that tigers often hunt bears for a "fat tasty steak". Franz Hafner in his new documentary on Amur tigers (2021) also states that in other regions of Russia, which are devoid of tigers, bears are considered to be "apex predators", but in the Ussuri taiga, bears are no longer apex predators, because they get hunted and killed by tigers. Chris Morgan, a world renowned bear ecologist & expert, also stated that back in the U.S. the bears he studies are at the top of the food-chain, but when there are tigers in the woods, bears are on the menu.
Again, this isn't backed by fact, this is opinion. What evidence does Pavel have to state that? How many first hand accounts has he seen or heard of? You seem to put too much stock in their title and not enough in actual occurrences. Biologists can be sensationalists and make assumptions just like the rest of us. Which is why when actual predation studies come out, they contradict many so called "rules of nature" after the fact. 

Instead of quoting blanket statements that have no factual evidence, present actual data that back your claim. I.E. Research papers, eye witness accounts, videos, carcasses, hearsay and so on.

Quote:I'm talking about serious fights to the death, in which the bear would stand no chance, period. The tiger is too big, too powerful, too armed and a far superior and skilled killer. A mortal combat situation is nothing but a death sentence for even a big male sloth bear.



Right, because the small Female Sloth Bear wasn't fighting for her life against Matkasur. Again, I've seen a big, Male Sloth Bear in person and I've seen a big Male Tiger in person, they are comparable. Obviously a Tiger is bigger but not by as much as you think and in regards to more powerful, the fact that Bears run off Tigers often enough prove that the Tiger respects their power. You know the only other animals that run off Tigers? Gaur, W. Buffalo, Rhino and Elephant. All of which substantially more powerful than a Tiger. 

Long story short, you sensationalize the Tiger too much. The Tiger is the Apex predator of it's terrain but the Bear is a serious threat at any point which is why Sloth Bears don't run fast, climb trees, live in herds or sneak about yet they share the same territory with big male Tigers and do so in almost every park that exists regardless of the Tiger population.

By this logic we should also say that Tigers preying on bull Gaurs is also very rare but it’s been proven that it’s much more common than people think.

Though Tigers obviously don’t hunt Sloth Bears as commonly as they hunt Gaurs but that’s NOT because the Bear is ‘a serious threat’ but rather only because Tigers prefer to go after larger prey as by doing so, the Tiger would get optimal returns for their effort.

Killing a Sloth Bear would not be a wise thing to do as Sloth Bears would make very little food for the Tiger compared to a Gaur and this is the main reason Tigers don’t hunt Sloth Bears that much.

In Russia, Amur Tigers kill Brown Bears a lot too and those Tigers are the same size or slightly smaller than Bengal Tigers so common sense says that Bengals would have zero problems killing Sloth Bears if Amurs are killing Brown Bears.

There have even been cases of Tigers killing exceptionally large male Brown Bears. One such case was in the book ‘Der Tiger’ from Mazak and contrastingly, I have never seen a Brown Bear do the same to Tigers as there have only been cases of Brown Bears killing females and sub-adults. The worst a Bear has done is kill a 4 year old male Tiger but I’ve never heard of a case of a Brown Bear killing a prime male Tiger before.

A full grown male Tiger is avoided by a Brown Bear at all costs while the Tiger doesn’t hesitate to kill even large male Brown Bears when the situation calls for it.

Long story short, Bengal Tigers would have no problems killing adult Sloth Bears but Tigers choose not to do it too much (but still do it more commonly than you think) as Indian Tigers have much better animals to prey on as they live in one of the richest conditions possible for a terrestrial hypercarnivore and they have no reason to waste their energy on Sloth Bears.
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@Pckts 

Your logic and arguments are flawed and make no sense.

Quote:Ustaad was over 4 at the time and was also mating with a Female. So not only was he ran off during mating but both of them were actually ran off.

On top of that, I literally named 4 off the top of my head and that was just territory holding adult males, I could have doubled that amount for adult females and could add many more by doing even more due diligence. So the point being, your claim of this 

is wrong. 

Was Ustaad a full-grown adult male tiger?? NO. Was he a prime male tiger? NO. He was a YOUNG ADULT. There's a clear difference between a young adult male tiger and a fully-grown adult tiger aged 6+ years old.

The examples you mentioned, I already knew about. Again, Matkasur initially fought the sloth bear (easily dominated the bear for most of the fight) and although he retreated in the end, it was the BEARS THAT FLED back into the jungle wanting nothing to do with that tiger. Matkasur kept his watering hole.

Then you mentioned another example of T-57. You claimed that there were "numerous" videos of sloth bears running off territorial adult male tigers. Where are they??  Do you know what "numerous" means?

Like I said, there's only VERY FEW videos of sloth bears running off adult male tigers, far from "numerous" like your claiming. I could post many videos of adult sloth bears, including male bears, fleeing from juvenile tigers and tigresses.

So your clearly wrong.

Quote:I never said there wasn't, but I can all but guarantee you that there are more of Bears engaging and running off Tigers than the other way around. 

Nope. 

There are many videos of tigers of all ages and genders chasing off adult sloth bears, videos which people like to ignore. In fact there's videos of adult sloth bears spotting young juvenile tigers and tigresses from a distance, and retreating back into the jungle to avoid confrontation. Not to mention the countless accounts there are of tigers killing and eating sloth bears.

Quote:You don't seem to know how to qualify "evidence"
You think accounts with no eye witness proof or verifiable data counts as "evidence."
This is shown by you posting Valmik blanket claim.
I can post numerous eye witness accounts and videos, images and so on of real encounters showing that the relationship is far from one sided. I also have access to far more people who actually safari there often on top of doing it my self and getting numerous first hand accounts from guides and naturalists. 


So scientific peer-reviewed studies, reports, data and accounts from numerous BIOLOGISTS, ZOOLOGISTS & RESEARCHERS is not "evidence", field observations and reports from a renowned Bengal tiger expert like Valmik Thapar is just "blanket statements", but empty claims and guesswork from a mere forum poster like yourself, a totally unqualified person in the field of zoology and biological sciences etc... is right??

Your ignorantly denying the evidence and reports from actual field experts who are a million times more qualified than you in this regard. These biologists have spent DECADES of their lives in the field, studying and observing tiger predatory behaviour and habits. That says it all.

You wanna know how the encounter went? Well, the bear ended up in the tigers excrements, so what do you think happened?

And your "numerous first-hand accounts" from guides and naturalists doesn't even compare to scientific peer-reviewed studies and decades of field research by actual biologists and researchers. So please, don't go there.

You can deny the facts all you want, but it doesn't change reality and the fact that Amur tigers regularly prey on bears, an established fact observed, documented and confirmed by numerous biologists and researchers. Tiger predation on bears has been reported for over a century now!

Quote:What do you consider "frequently?"

Because as of now I've seen 2-3 instances of bears being predated on. And on top of that, even fewer of actual encounters and more so fecal samples which will never give you a true understanding of what occurred, the age or sex of the victim or if it were a scavenged carcass or not.

"Frequently" means regularly. Your seriously telling me, that after years of (you) posting on different forums (AVA, Wildfact, Carnivora), your only aware of 2-3 cases of bears being predated on by Amur tigers?  Are you serious? How is that even possible? For years, many different posters have posted countless accounts of Amur tigers killing both brown bears and black bears, and your telling me you only know of 2-3 instances! Wow.

Quote:Show me what study states that Bears make up a significant portion of a Tigers diet. On top of that, explain the process they went about determining it and the data shown to back it.  

I've already posted this study, and you know exactly which threads I've posted them on. But here you go again: Why do I have to explain the process? Read the study yourself.

A comparison of food habits and prey preference of Amur tiger at three sites in the Russian Far East

"In addition, bears constituted a significantly higher proportion of tiger diet in the summer, and while not significant, badgers increased in the diet of tigers during the snow-free period as well..."


"The increased predation on bears and badgers is likely due to their increased availability following emergence from hibernation and the increased vulnerability of their young, although tigers do prey on adult bears. Amur tiger predation on bear is not a new phenomenon, but our results, in addition to identifying seasonality in tiger predation of bears, also suggests that bears constitute a relatively large portion of tiger diet, particularly during the snow-free period. This runs counter to previous assertions that the risk of injury was too high for tigers to regularly predate bears." (Miquelle et al. 2010)

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Dal...r-East.pdf

I can post plenty more information proving that Amur tigers regularly hunt and kill bears. This is an indisputable fact.

Quote:Again, this isn't backed by fact, this is opinion. What evidence does Pavel have to state that? How many first hand accounts has he seen or heard of? You seem to put too much stock in their title and not enough in actual occurrences. Biologists can be sensationalists and make assumptions just like the rest of us. Which is why when actual predation studies come out, they contradict many so called "rules of nature" after the fact. 

Instead of quoting blanket statements that have no factual evidence, present actual data that back your claim. I.E. Research papers, eye witness accounts, videos, carcasses, hearsay and so on.

Oh yeah, because biologists and scientific researchers mostly base their conclusions off of pure guesswork and worthless opinions, right?  The decades of field observations and experience studying wild tigers and bears means nothing, right? Their qualifications in biological sciences and zoology also means nothing, right?

These "experts" only dedicate their entire lives working in wild nature reserves with tigers and bears, studying their feeding habits and behaviour etc... what do they know??

I have posted research papers, eye-witness accounts and pictures of carcasses to back my claims. What are you on about? Read the extinction thread, I posted PLENTY of information! And Pavel Fomenko mentions in the video that he observed a case of a tiger that killed a bear and dragged its carcass a kilometer to feed on it.

An example; Here's the remains of a fully-grown mature male black bear that was killed and eaten by a tiger. Sergey Kolchin followed the tracks of a male tiger in the snow, and found his bear kill:


*This image is copyright of its original author



*This image is copyright of its original author


https://www.facebook.com/sergey.bears?fref=nf

Sergey Kolchin is one of Russia's top leading tiger & bear specialists and biologists, and this same biologist (based on his field observations) also stated that bears are common prey of adult male tigers:

"But this is if the tiger's teeth are in order. And, of course, the paws, with the help of which the tiger makes throws, grabs and holds the caught prey. Red deer and wild boars, not to mention bears (the usual prey of adult male tigers), are able to stand up for themselves with dignity."

http://debri-dv.com/article/5993

But let me guess, your gonna say this is another "blanket statement" ?  

Quote:Right, because the small Female Sloth Bear wasn't fighting for her life against Matkasur. Again, I've seen a big, Male Sloth Bear in person and I've seen a big Male Tiger in person, they are comparable. Obviously a Tiger is bigger but not by as much as you think and in regards to more powerful, the fact that Bears run off Tigers often enough prove that the Tiger respects their power. You know the only other animals that run off Tigers? Gaur, W. Buffalo, Rhino and Elephant. All of which substantially more powerful than a Tiger. 

Long story short, you sensationalize the Tiger too much. The Tiger is the Apex predator of it's terrain but the Bear is a serious threat at any point which is why Sloth Bears don't run fast, climb trees, live in herds or sneak about yet they share the same territory with big male Tigers and do so in almost every park that exists regardless of the Tiger population.

Again, another badly flawed argument. I've seen videos of lone cheetahs chasing off adult lionesses, does that mean lionesses in general, respect the cheetah's power? Does that mean cheetahs pose a "serious threat" to lionesses? I've seen large male grizzlies and black bears fleeing from tiny little dogs, small domestic pigs and cows, so does that mean the large bear respects the small pigs and tiny dogs power? Does that mean the little dog or pig poses a "serious threat" to the huge bears?? There's other examples of jaguars and other large predators getting run off by much smaller and weaker animals, so? What does that prove? Nothing.

No, bears run off juvenile tigers often, not adult tigers. Juvenile tigers and tigresses also run off adult sloth bears, it goes both ways.

I'm not sensationalizing the tiger, your just overrating the sloth bear. What about the larger Ussuri (Asiatic) black bears in Russia, that are well known (and regularly do) to flee up tree's at the sight of a tiger?  In fact, those bears spend most of their time in the tree's to be safe from tiger predation, you know why?... because Amur tigers attack and kill bears far more often than Bengal tigers hunt bears. So both brown bears and black bears in Russia have more reasons than the sloth bear to fear the tiger, because the Amur tiger regularly preys on bears, whereas Bengal tigers not as often. So sloth bears don't need to flee up tree's as much.

If the sloth bear co-existed with the Amur tiger, it would be a totally different story. But still, there are numerous accounts of Bengal tigers killing and eating sloth bears throughout history. And if sloth bears posed such a "threat" to tigers, as you merely assume, then there simply wouldn't be plenty of accounts of tigers hunting, killing and eating sloth bears, period.

(Credits to GuateGojira):


Tiger biologist, Dr Raghu Chundawat observed that tigers in Panna, regularly preyed on sloth bears:


*This image is copyright of its original author



Bear ecologist & expert, K. Yoganand has also reported cases of tigers killing sloth bears:


*This image is copyright of its original author


https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=EU3i...rs&f=false


So the fact is (which is acknowledged by wildlife experts and biologists), the bear is no longer an "apex predator" in the same forest as tigers, because they are on the tigers menu and often get killed and eaten. 

Although Amur tigers prey on bears far more often than Bengal tigers do, in some areas like Panna, it seems that sloth bears are regularly killed and eaten by tigers.

And are you telling me that you think a big male sloth bear is capable of killing a male tiger in a fair fight to the death?

I posted an account of a tiger killing and eating a large male sloth bear. The bear tried fleeing up a tree from the tiger, was pulled off, and killed by the tiger in a fight.
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( This post was last modified: 06-24-2022, 08:59 PM by Apex Titan )

@Tenebris 

Quote:1#. Tigers, generally, do not hunt sloth bears. (Richard lydekker, Panna and Chitral NP tiger's diet chart, Tej Kumar)

In some areas, sloth bears are often hunted and killed by tigers. Throughout history, there are countless accounts of tigers killing and eating sloth bears. The tiger is a natural predator of the sloth bear, a fact reported by biologists in scientific papers.

These cases are more common than you like to think.

Quote:2#. Tigers mostly avoid face-to-face confrontations with Sloth bears. (Altre edizioni, Francis leukel)

Sloth bears are known to flee from juvenile tigers and tigresses and also mostly avoid face-to-face confrontations with tigers. Why are you ignoring that part?


Quote:Sloth bears do not fear tigers abd tigers do not change their behaviour. Both do not have predator-prey relations. Tigers do not dominate and these bears roam without any tension. (Thapar, Garshiells, Yoganand)

Wrong. Sloth bears do fear tigers and thats why they always act defensively aggressive towards tigers before running away. They're afraid that the tiger will attack. The fact that tigers prey on adult sloth bears proves that tigers, overall, dominate sloth bears. Any predator that's well known to deliberately hunt, kill and eat another carnivore is a clear form of dominance.

Tigers do change sloth bear behaviour and this fact was observed by bear ecologist, K. Yoganand, who observed that sloth bears actively avoided tigers:

However, it is possible that the bears may be avoiding certain micro-habitats that tigers frequently use, or actively avoid tigers by avoiding places where they are present. I have found evidences of active avoidance of tigers by sloth bears and relatively frequent vigilance behaviour in bears (personal  observations) in Panna NP. My observations on interactions that sloth bears had with con-specifics, tigers and humans in Panna indicate that there are several responses that are common in these interactions, particularly in the way sloth bears reacted to both tigers and humans.

Sloth bears actively avoided tigers and humans when they became aware of their presence in advance. When they heard suspicious sounds made by humans, tigers, or even alarms raised by other animals such as sambar (Cervus unicolor) or common langur (Trachypithecus entellus) to the presence of predators or humans, the bears became vigilant. They paused their activity and waited for further sounds or scents, looked in the direction of the sound, or exhibited such vigilant behaviour.

When the bears sensed the presence of adversaries, they stopped their activity, moved in a different direction or even took shelter under secure cover. Sometimes, they did not emerge out of dens until long after their usual times of start of activity. Occasionally they also fled on sensing a threat, or at other times, they rushed towards the tiger or the human. 

Similar reactions were also observed in Chitwan NP, Nepal. At close quarters, sloth bears reacted to humans and tigers similarly, often by roaring and running away, or roaring and attacking before retreating (Laurie and Seidensticker 1977).

https://etheses.saurashtrauniversity.edu...cience.pdf

Valmik Thapar (see my previous post to Pckts) said that in direct confrontation with tigers, its the bear that usually turns and flee's. And there are well known cases of tigers that were habitual bear-killers. 

Quote:Tigers always kill by ambush and in face on fights, tigers normally flee rather than fighing the aggressive bears as bears can injury them seriously. (Adele conover, Joshi, accounts)

There are numerous accounts of tigers killing sloth bears in face-to-face fights. A fact which you deliberately ignore. Not only are there accounts of tigers killing sloth bears in head-on fights, there's way more accounts of tigers killing brown bears in face-to-face fights. 

No, tigers do not "always" kill by ambush. There are plenty accounts throughout history of tigers killing large dangerous animals like adult gaur, large wild boars and bears in face-to-face fights. Not all ambushes result in a quick kill, sometimes the tiger ends up having to fight, subdue and kill its prey after a long prolonged battle.

Again, a well known documented fact which you deliberately ignore. I could post a whole landslide of accounts.

Quote:There are many cases of Sloth bears defeating tigers in face-to-face, head-on fight, including sometimes multiple tigers and adult males like Genghis, Khali and Matkasur. (Accounts from experts and many videis from Youtube)

What an exaggeration and lie. "Many cases" ??  Where? Show me the account where a sloth bear "defeated" the tiger 'Genghis'??  Thats nonsense.

"Multiple tigers"? Yeah, multiple young, inexperienced tigers (i.e. juveniles & adolescents). And getting chased away is not getting "defeated" in a fight. You are badly exaggerating here.

Quote:There is one unconfirmed case of mature male tiger killed by Sloth bear. (Bareilly)

Yes, an unconfirmed account of a "huge sloth bear" allegedly "killing" an old, weakened and withered 12 year old tiger. Not a healthy, mature male tiger. Why not give the context?

The tiger could have easily been killed by another tiger, which is more likely. The account is based on pure speculation, nothing more.

Quote:Sloth bears very rarely have been known to drive away tigers from their kills. (Valmik Thapar)

Yes, although I've never heard of a single case of a sloth bear ever driving even a young tiger or tigress from a kill.

Quote:In fights, between sloth bears and tigers, the match is often draw. (Yoganand)

Yes, but thats when the fight is not serious, only a short skirmish and mostly involves adult sloth bears vs young tigers and tigresses. 

In a serious fight to the death, history consistently shows over and over again, that the tiger always (100% of cases) kills and eats the bear.

Quote:In most sloth bear vs tiger fights, the large-hearted fighter bear has the upper hand. (Singinawa Jungle Lodge Reservation)

What do you consider a fight?  A little skirmish?  In a serious fight, the tiger always kills the bear. So what are you talking about? The Matkasur fight was an exception, in general, the bear would get killed. On top of that, Matkasur wasn't fully determined on killing the bear, had he been, he would have certainly killed the bear.

And I like how you deliberately ignore all the tons of accounts of tigers hunting and killing sloth bears and killing sloth bears in face-to-face fights. Why do you ignore all those accounts, misquote experts and try twist the facts?
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