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Tiger-Lion Coexistence in Eurasia between Middle Pleistocene and Holocene Epochs
Tiger-Lion Coexistence in Eurasia between Middle Pleistocene and Holocene Epochs
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Tiger-Lion Coexistence in Eurasia between Middle Pleistocene and Holocene Epochs
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 (03-21-2019, 01:11 PM)parvez Wrote: @Shadow yes it is very sad to know that india is more focussed on development and cutting forests. More and more land is lost to agriculture and encroachment. But in northeast india, forest cover is more. The tigers of northeast india and Bhutan are more fortunate. There is high scope of survival for them. But tigers from rest of india also must flourish. Without natural forests, man cannot survive. Leaders must understand that. Heh, I mixed this thread to thread about modern times :) But anyway I do hope, that things develop to better. More and more people are aware about situation and it creates some hope even today even though challenges are huge. But I don´t continue this conversation more in this thread :)  (03-21-2019, 01:02 PM)parvez Wrote: well, i meant late Pleistocene. Only around tens of thousands of years ago. Not millions. I am sure in places like iran or Persia they coexisted during Pleistocene and I was talking about that.OK OK. So, you are talking about modern lion and tiger spp.. like "leo" (persica and europea) and "tigris" (virgata, tigris or Bengal and corbetti). Sure they coexisted in, Northern Iran (Hyrcan or Caspain), Afghan and Pak (sindh or Indus) and south eastern Europe like Greece, Bulgaria and Romania etc..,. and Yes, India too ! (but, please no fight content, "adi okati matram vadu andi"  )*This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author
(03-21-2019, 01:01 PM)Shadow Wrote: Well, overpopulation is maybe the most important issue to solve when thinking in a very realistic way. There are still vast forests and wildlife in some parts of the world, while in other places situation is very bad. In Russia there are huge forests, it is easy to look at satellite images for anyone to see, where is room for wildlife and where agriculture claims more and more land. Very true. (03-21-2019, 01:01 PM)Shadow Wrote: Who knows, maybe the future of the tiger is after all in Russia and not in India.... it is difficult to know how things change in future. No, their future is in Sunderbans mangrove forests... (if climate change doesn't effect by sea levels) 
(03-21-2019, 01:11 PM)parvez Wrote: @Shadow yes it is very sad to know that india is more focussed on development and cutting forests. More and more land is lost to agriculture and encroachment. But in northeast india, forest cover is more. The tigers of northeast india and Bhutan are more fortunate. There is high scope of survival for them. But tigers from rest of india also must flourish. Without natural forests, man cannot survive. Leaders must understand that. Our Andhra Tigers are the worst. (Mana vallu papikondalenee munchestaru, biggest tiger reserve lo poachinguu, smugglinguuu inka kanisam safari parks or management kuda ledu, no tourist attraction, no infrastructure development and facilities for that safari, aa chenchulu tribes emo nachinatu chstaru no relocation outside, no govt support, lame and corrupt officials, no intention to conserve wildlife. Murky andhra tiger future. AAAaa Telanagana ollu better mana kanna. chiiiiiii. Ina mana vote TDP kee endukantee jagan vaste paristithulu mari ghoramga tayaravuthai. One thing is sure congress govt= nature conservation adi okkati matram pukka  congress center lo ravali)Ok, let's leave this topic here. @Shadow Thanks, for understanding...
News of the tiger’s arrival stirred hopes that he would continue his westward trek and eventually reach Gir’s safe haven about 300 miles away. How he would react once he encountered some of the nearly 600 Gir forest lions and leopards was uncertain.
Quote:“It all depends on the prey,” says "Tara Pirie", a zoologist and big cat expert at the University of Reading, in the U.K., who has studied tigers in Sumatra. “If there are sufficient prey, then they should manage to coexist,” even if sharing a relatively small area. @Lycaon Gir Forest National Park encompasses 550 square miles of deciduous forests of teak, acacia, and banyan trees, some scrub jungle, and large patches of grassland. Quote:“It is suitable habitat for tigers and has Sambar deer, nilgai, wild boar,” Pirie says, as well as other animals that tigers and Asiatic lions hunt. Leopards, she notes, generally take small-to-medium-size prey, such as Axis deer.(Read more about Asia's lions, which live in one last place on Earth.) Quote:Lions and tigers used to coexist across many parts of India, as well as in western and Central Asia—"usually in different habitats"(prefer)—until the end of the 1800s (19th century) By then, hunting and poaching had driven most populations to extinction. The animals also suffered from the loss of prey and habitat as farming, timber harvests, new roads, and settlements—and a growing human population—shrank their forest homes. https://www.nationalgeographic.com/anima...l8BfG0bc4U YOU CAN SEE ALL THESE THINGS I SAID BEFORE.... 
@Sanju :
About #38: if I well understand, no one decision, because of bureaucracy/administrative burdens, about Gir lions is really taken as concerns a translocation into a new park within which tigers are inhabiting ? But because some tigers are emigrating forwards West India, tigers are able to arrive in Gir park and why not try to live inside... I'm going to clearly believe that tigers and lions are destined, by a superior will, for coexisting again ! (04-09-2019, 01:08 AM)Spalea Wrote: @Sanju : I agree, while bureaucracy and administrative burdens may be powerful, they can't fight the will of nature. One day, I believe these cats will coexist once again, just like nature intended.  (03-21-2019, 01:51 PM)Sanju Wrote: Ina mana vote TDP kee endukantee jagan vaste paristithulu mari ghoramga tayaravuthai. One thing is sure congress govt= nature conservation adi okkati matram pukka   I don't understand telugu (or whatever language is this) but think know is written there...You think that coming to power of the worthless Rahul, a guy who eats beef and enter Hindu temples unpurified, by the votes of minorities, will tackle the problems of Indian lions I deeply doubt this my friend. Actually I would be surprised if he even know about existence of lions in India... His mental horizons are restricted mainly to human lionesses in the high society 
https://www.nationalgeographic.com/anima...l8BfG0bc4U
Quote:Pocock thought that it was unlikely that serious competition between them regularly occurred, and that even if Indian lions and tigers met, the chance that they would fight for survival was as good as the chance that they would choose to avoid each other, and that their chances of success, if they were to clash, were as good as each other's. Coexistence in the Eurasian wilderness Wild Cats: Status Survey and Conservation Action Plan The British cyclopæedia of natural history "Genetic variation in Asiatic lions and Indian tigers" *This image is copyright of its original author *This image is copyright of its original author College of Biological SciencesPacker, CraigUniversity of Minnesota Tales of travellers; or, A view of the world PocockMammalia1 Tiger and Lion ecology in Indian subcontinent http://repository.ias.ac.in/89489/1/50p.pdf "Lion" Quote:According to Colin Tudge (2011), given that both cats hunt large herbivores, it is likely that they had been in competition in Asia. Despite their social nature, lions might have competed with tigers on an individual basis, as they would with each other. The Engineer in the Garden The modern lion and tiger were present in Eurasia since the Pleistocene, when now-extinct relatives also existed there. Mlekopitajuščie Sovetskogo Soiuza. Moskva: Vysšaia Škola Reginald Innes Pocock (1939) mentioned that some people had the opinion that the tiger played a role in the near-extinction of the Indian lion, but he dismissed this view as 'fanciful'. According to him, there was evidence that tigers inhabited the Subcontinent, before lions. The tigers likely entered Northern India from the eastern end of the Himalayas, through Burma, and started spreading throughout the area, before the lions likely entered Northern India from Balochistan or Persia, and spread to places like the Bengal and the Nerbudda River. Because of that, before the presence of man could limit the spread of lions, tigers reached parts of India that lions did not reach. However, the presence of tigers throughout India did not stop the spread of lions there, in the first place, so Pocock said that it is unlikely that Bengal tigers played a role, significant or subordinate, in the near-extinction of the Indian lion, rather, that man was responsible for it, as was the case with the decline in tigers' numbers. As such, Pocock thought that it was unlikely that serious competition between them regularly occurred, and that even if Indian lions and tigers met, the chance that they would fight for survival was as good as the chance that they would choose to avoid each other, and that their chances of success, if they were to clash, were as good as each other's. (04-09-2019, 01:08 AM)Spalea Wrote: I'm going to clearly believe that tigers and lions are destined, by a superior will, for coexisting again !   (04-09-2019, 01:08 AM)Spalea Wrote: tigers are able to arrive in Gir park and why not try to live inside...If you look at historic modern tiger range map at last glacial maximum about 20000 yrs BC. Tigers definitely lived in Kathiawar peninsula indeed (gir forest).  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author https://www.researchgate.net/publication...is_a_tiger but, again take a look at tiger range map few centuries ago...  *This image is copyright of its original author https://www.panthera.org/initiative/save-tiger-fund There is natural extinction (somewhat humans also) of tigers due to arid climate and habitat change in Gir region. But, there is tiger habitats still exists inside of Gujarat border regions which are not undergone much changes triangular to today's lion range. Again, Tigers and Lions of India living in same eco-region i.e.., Gir - Kathiawar - Gwalior eco-region which includes aravali range's Aravali tigers (Ranth and sariska) and now extinct Vindhyachal tigers of "Gujarat".  *This image is copyright of its original author The tiger's presence in Gujarat since past 30 yrs in those dang forests and other forest ranges like Mahisagar facing MP, Raj and Maha shows even man extirpated them, they are going to bounce back. One thing is sure evolution is a process which never ends. If again, Gir is favorable to Tigers (as they are able to live in similar conditions like Rath and sariska) and if they can migrate and extend their range "NATURALLY". Then, we can't oppose their presence in gir. Species if having growing population will extend their distribution range... Like Jackals distributing outside their range in Europe... Polar bears of Russia living outside their recent natural range due to climate change with brown bears and black bears which once being a brown bear left america's to arctic to evolve as polar bear due to the same climatic and environmental conditions. In the same way, tigers which left or extinct in gir region may come again if it's natural conditions favor that migration and colonisation. That's natural and that's how nature work. Tigers may recolonize their "late Pleistocene range" if conditions favor similar to RANTH and SARISKA. Quote:But, man made translocation of tigers to gir is opposable and against rules of IUCN introduction outside "recent" tiger historic range. It should happen naturally if possible. Hope you are understanding what I'm saying. (04-09-2019, 01:54 AM)smedz Wrote: I agree, while bureaucracy and administrative burdens may be powerful, they can't fight the will of nature. One day, I believe these cats will coexist once again, just like nature intended. (04-09-2019, 07:52 AM)Wolverine Wrote: I don't understand telugu (or whatever language is this) but think know is written there...Yeah, it's telugu, I guess you understood coz I used english a bit too.  (04-09-2019, 07:52 AM)Wolverine Wrote: You think that coming to power of the worthless Rahul, a guy who eats beef and enter Hindu temples unpurified, by the votes of minorities, His mental horizons are restricted mainly to human lionesses in the high society Actually I was talking about our state politics. Other than that, I also said that Congress should come in center and Gujarat. I don't care about what he does about religion and how much corruption he and his party does (coz he's contrary to modi who is a Communist who support and gets vote bank of Hindu, recently he used religion in election campaign which EC can reject his qualifications to contest in elections). Rahul secularist and his party environmental friendly at its "extreme". Sure they may not be as efficient in administration like BJP. BUT WHAT I SEE AND EVERYBODY SHOULD SEE IS CONGRESS GOVT IS KING OF ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION. THAT'S ALL. Although i'm big fan and supporter of namo and BJP in all aspects except his bias towards Gujarat in national politics and his betrayal to our newly formed capital less AP state is unforgivable in special status issue and above he's the destroyer of forests and environment like trump. Apart from this, i'm a big fan of modi, made many schemes and changes during his rule to eradicate corruption. I know these qualities are not in congress but the reason I support because is clear. Our state govt too made an alliance with congress against modi. (04-09-2019, 07:52 AM)Wolverine Wrote: will tackle the problems of Indian lionsActually you are quite incorrect. He knows about gir lions completely. He also makes statements time to time about modi scam in gir lion translocation. Quote:We know how strongly Modi feels about the Gujarati identity. His unwillingness to insure the Asiatic lion against "extinction" by translocating a few prides emanates from this. - Rahul Gandhi. And what's the need of his involvement? his state govt will look-after the project or issue.
@Sanju :
About #43: thank a lot for your detailed reply ! I'm convinced too that tigers and lions coexisted before in such places like Gir forest. And also in other countries like Iran. We have just to take a look on their respective range/habitats during the pleistocene and holocene periods to be sure of that. Even if tigers and lions don't prefer exactly the same biotops, they were able to intersect, to cross each other at the boundaries of these prefered biotops. A sort of mutual reconnaissance could have prevailed... I think it was unavoidable from time to time. The problem, IMO, is different. Imagine a wild place where lions and tigers really coexist, in everybody's eyes, and the supplement of touristic attraction that would involve... And that in a park that would quickly risk to become a too restricted place for these two apex predators... This park should be restructured, I think. |
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