There is a world somewhere between reality and fiction. Although ignored by many, it is very real and so are those living in it. This forum is about the natural world. Here, wild animals will be heard and respected. The forum offers a glimpse into an unknown world as well as a room with a view on the present and the future. Anyone able to speak on behalf of those living in the emerald forest and the deep blue sea is invited to join.
Apart from this particular poster on tigernation, I haven't seen anyone making such claims as Munna being much bigger than Waghdoh & Bamera. Not just that, I haven't seen such blatant cheerleading of one particular tiger anywhere, even on the immature AVA forums.
Two people who have seen the same tiger might not agree on the size. But when one tiger is being called consistently bigger than all, by multiple photographers who have seen tigers in multiple reserves, then maybe we can take their word. eg, Waghdoh.
I too have seen wild tigers, in Ranthambhore and in Kanha, yet I don't have such strong opinions on size.
It seems no one on tigernation seems to know anything better and hence no one challenges this poster and take his opinion on everything as gospel. They have let one person hijack their website which is why I stopped going there because it has turned into one giant Munna/Banda jerkfest.
Shardul pretty much nailed it on point, that entire tigernation website is a joke right now. theres no recent updates, a lot of the tiger profiles are missing and its a spamfest between minh ha and some very unfortunate people that have to buy into his size crap and misinformation.
(10-24-2015, 04:01 PM)Roflcopters Wrote: Kingfisher killed two of the Mahaveer female's cubs.
Yes.
Mahavir tigress had 4 cubs and two of her cubs were killed by Kingfisher male when they were around one year old.
I hope the remaining two cubs reaches adulthood.
(10-21-2015, 07:44 PM)anand3690 Wrote: Is Chinkoo the Tala male seen recently?
It is a nice question, because I think there are no news/pics of Chinkoo recently.
By the way, does anyone know how old are Kingfisher and Tarun ??
Kingfisher looks like enormous, the biggest in Kanha, but I have heard that Chota Munna is already taller than him and becoming a powerful force.
Tarun is in fact amazing. Only a special tiger can beat so many adversaries, including Jobhi, who, I think, is also a very large animal.
Hi strana,
First of all I like to say that there are a lot of misguiding and misleading informations available all over internet.
In regards to Kanha tiger reserve there are a lot of Munna fan boys all over YouTube, tigernation, forums etc.
They want to make Munna "a larger than life tiger".
I've seen these fanatics saying Konda, Banda, Naak kata are smaller than Munna.
But in reality these tigers were massive and larger than Munna.
The reason is Munna being very popular.
Similarly now these fanboys are trying to make Chotta Munna an icon.
I've read these fanboys saying kingfisher is a very small tiger, umarpani male tiger is massive in size with big head, Chotta Munna is taller and bigger than kingfisher male.
I also read that these guys saying kingfisher won't stand a chance against bisanpura male and mahavir male, but unfortunately these males vanished when kingfisher arrived.
The funny part is they say kingfisher is a very small tiger and umarpani male to be massive in size, but if you see the pics of the latest dispute between these two males we can clearly see kingfisher male being taller, longer, larger, with bigger head and chest girth than umarpani male tiger.
See the pics below Kingfisher male in the back umarpani in front.
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
Regarding Mukki zone, initially it was ruled by a dominant male called the thin stripe male aka bisanpura male.
But later he was challenged by Umarpani male, Kingfisher male and Bheema and subsequently lost the territory to these males.
After the takeover of Mukki zone, the umarpani male remained the most dominant among the trio (He was also the oldest).
Then on Jan 2015 both Kingfisher and Umarpani went at each other, Kingfisher dominated the battle and both the males sustained injuries which were later treated by the forest officials (both these males fought several times).
Finally Umarpani settled on central area of Mukki and Kingfisher near Mukki gate.
Here is the video below
In the meantime Chotta Munna aka link 7 male came into picture, in Jan 2015 he fought with Bheema at Chota chatta pather road. Bheema was defeated in the fight and Chotta munna took control of most of Bheema's territory and his female. Later Chotta munna went onto challenge umarpani male, but lost the fight with injuries and disappeared for some time. Currently umarpani and chotta Munna holds the main central part of Mukki.
Kingfisher male to show his dominance over his territory killed two one year cubs of Mahavir female (but I'm not sure who fathered the cubs).
Mukki is a very volatile zone and anything can happen.
let's see what Kana holds for this season.
Apollo, Pckts
Thanks a lot for all information about Kanha tigers, I really apreciate that.
Munna is really an enigma, with so many different opinions; some say he is just above average, some say he is bigger than Wagdoh. Maybe the same will happen with Chotta Munna !!!
Just looking the pics, Kingfisher looks to be clearly bigger, as I said before, the largest in Kanha, but Tarun seems still more impressive. I might be completely wrong, but I believe that tigers are becoming bigger and bigger in India.
By the way, do you have any information about Pench?? Despite being very near Kanha and also a well known reserve, it is not common to get pics/info from there.
10-26-2015, 09:28 PM( This post was last modified: 10-27-2015, 04:14 AM by Pckts )
(10-25-2015, 04:20 AM)Shardul Wrote: Apart from this particular poster on tigernation, I haven't seen anyone making such claims as Munna being much bigger than Waghdoh & Bamera. Not just that, I haven't seen such blatant cheerleading of one particular tiger anywhere, even on the immature AVA forums.
Two people who have seen the same tiger might not agree on the size. But when one tiger is being called consistently bigger than all, by multiple photographers who have seen tigers in multiple reserves, then maybe we can take their word. eg, Waghdoh.
I too have seen wild tigers, in Ranthambhore and in Kanha, yet I don't have such strong opinions on size.
It seems no one on tigernation seems to know anything better and hence no one challenges this poster and take his opinion on everything as gospel. They have let one person hijack their website which is why I stopped going there because it has turned into one giant Munna/Banda jerkfest.
I agree for the most part, Tigenation hasn't been updated in quite some time. But a few of the posters there are good, I truly think Kay is definitely one of them. He contributes many photographs and very rarely gets caught up in the debate of individual tigers.
So I take his word about Kahna males being larger than Bandhavargh males, but I have heard from a few that the males there aren't quite as large as else where. But that being said, I would still put Bheema up there with any tiger, hes huge. And very few tigers have carried as impressive of a body as bamera, in terms of muscle definition.
Most of us know by now that every area has there own version of "Waghoh"
The tiger that is bigger than all the others.
But like you stated, someone who has been to many reserves, word, will carry more weight than a one time traveler, obviously.
That being said, I have heard from Kanwar and Anjan that Munna is very large tiger, but other than that, its pure speculation. So at the end of the day, I assume he is a large male, nothing more, nothing less.
Edit: Also, I love Kahna and Ranthambhore Tigers, both look to be large cats in their own way. Do you notice any different in size between those two locations of Tigers?
To me, Ranth tigers have slightly smaller heads than Kahna tigers but Ranth body frame look to be very tall and athletic, Kahna also looks to be tall but a little more robust. To my naked eye of course, and only through video, not like I have seen them in person.
Unfortunately
10-27-2015, 10:28 AM( This post was last modified: 10-27-2015, 11:39 AM by Apollo )
DIWANI RAM TIGER
Photographer says,
"Sharing a hair rising true incident; a long distance shot of the tiger responsible for the incident is attached. The tiger still roams free in the jungle, thanks to the good judgment and decision of forest department for not branding the tiger as maneater. During my visit to Corbett in December 2012, I learned that on 22nd July 2012 a temporary forest department employee named Diwani Ram, in his late 40’s or early 50’s, short and thin built, hard of hearing was working as a beat guard in the sarapdulli range for about 20 odd years with forest department was mauled, killed and partly devoured by a tiger. From that day we named the tiger as Diwani Ram. Decided to find out what exactly happened and wanted to see and photograph the tiger. Thereafter, I made it a point to book myself into Sarapdulli FRH for least two nights during my every future visit to Corbett, till I see the tiger. In following visits, during my each stay I talked to most of the range beat guards and forester and collected as much information as I could. From information, it was evident that Diwani Ram was a courageous man and was not afraid of wild animals, even tigers. Based on the version of the beat guards and the forester constructed what exactly transpired on the fateful day. Later, even the ranger confirmed me about the incident. During rainy seasons Ramganga river’s crystal clear ice and spring water turns muddy as the river water mixes with rain water flowing down the mountains carrying mud and silt with it. The Sarapdulli forest range quarter is situated on the bank of river Ramganga and all the water need for the resident forest employee of the range quarters is pumped from the Rāmgangā River. During the rainy season, to avoid the muddy water these forest employee visit nearby springs / rocky stream to collect clean water. Barsoti sot that has a stream of cleaner water than the rest of the streams during the rainy seasons is situated about a km from Sarapdulli range quarter towards Dhangari. On the fateful day the beat guard Diwani Ram decided to go to Barsoti sot. The person (forest department employee, name withheld) whom Diwani Ram last spoke to informed me that on 22nd July 2012 it was between 2.30 to 3.00 pm Diwani Ram told him that he is going to Barsoti Sot to clean his clothes and get drinking water, that were Diwani Ram’s last words and he claims he was the last person who saw him and spoke to him. When Diwani Ram did not return till sunset, the same person informed his colleague that Diwani Ram had not yet returned, so the two of them decided to go in search of him. Armed with a torch and one stick the two fellows (name withheld) went to Barsoti sot, by the time they reached the spot it was already dark. One of the fellows kept calling for Diwani Ram the other was checking the area with the torch light. At the boulder on the bank of the Barsoti sot about 20-25 meters from the main Dhikala Dhangari road, the two fellows could spot Diwani Ram’s clothes and water container. They then went closer to the boulder and were terrified to see splashes of blood and the pug marks of tiger. They immediately guessed what may have happened and hurriedly returned back to the Sarapdulli range quarter and informed the head office in Ramnagar about the incident. By then it was already 8 pm in the night, so nothing much could have been done. Next day at the first light, the forest department, with help of domestic elephants, went in search of Diwani Ram. A few hundred meters from the spot where the clothes of Diwani Ram were lying they discovered the body of Diwani Ram, his lower portion was devoured with the tiger lying nearby and guarding the kill. The mahout with help of elephant tried to shoo away the tiger but the tiger was not in a mood to leave its prey and kept growling in anger. After some difficult situation and blank gun fire by forest guards the tiger was chased away. The partially (one complete leg and other about half) devoured body was recovered by the forest department. The forest department after analyzing the circumstances of the incident, came to a conclusion that there was a possibility that Diwani Ram was squatting on the boulder which was positioned between the beat forest track used by animals and tigers and the stream, and was washing or collecting water with his head down towards the stream. As he was hard of hearing, propagated with the sound of the flowing water in the stream, Diwani Ram may not have heard the movement or the growl of tiger who found him on his path, also from behind, the squatting position may have given the tiger an impression that it was not a human rather resembled like deer or wild boar or rhesus monkey. The forest department, based on the assumptions and analysis gave the tiger a second chance as a benefit of doubt and maintained stringent monitoring on the movement of the tiger. Luckily, the tiger did not charge or attack any other human from July till Nov 2012, prior reopening of the park. The forest department left the tiger free to roam in the jungle. Till date no further incident has been recorded and that proves the circumstances and conclusion of the forest department were correct. Since December 2012 till December 2014, I stayed at Sarapdulli FRH four times totaling 8 nights and the 9 days and 9 evenings that I got, had dedicated to track the tiger, onetime man-eater. Twice I was very close to the tiger, as the jungle sound and my senses confirmed but never got the glimpse of him. The tiger is a huge shy male about 200 plus kg’s in weight, huge head, and stripe-less shoulders with one claw of its right forepaw angled outwards. Without mistake, the tiger can be easily identified visually or by the pug mark. On 21st of Dec 2014 about 4.30 pm, we were lazing around at crocodile point, when we heard sambar deer calls followed by chital calls from the opposite side of the river. Excitement with anticipation ran down our spines, any moment the predator may come out in the open. Time ticked by, alarm calls stopped, no sign of any predator, time was about 4.55 pm, suddenly the guide shouted “tiger, woh baitha hai lantana kay nichay – tiger sitting below the lantana bushes there”. Finally we got a glimpse of the male tiger who had killed and devoured Diwani Ram. We confirmed it was the killer of Diwani Ram as the area we spotted the territory belongs to him. We waited till 5.05 pm for the tiger to come out of the lantana bushes but he did not come out, seemed the tiger spotted us and was waiting for us to leave. We left the spot at 5.06 pm as the gates close by 5.30 pm and had to reach on time to dhikala."
That tiger also resembles a youngster to me as well, but obviously impossible to know for sure.
The only thing I don't think is likely is whether or not it matters if a human is crouching or not, I never agree with the statement that Sharks confused a surfer for a seal and the same goes for a apex predator.
Their senses have evolved for many 1000s of years, they know the scent, sight and posture of all prey they hunt regularly and I highly doubt they will confuse a human being with a prey animal they have been hunting throughout history.
(10-25-2015, 04:20 AM)Shardul Wrote: Apart from this particular poster on tigernation, I haven't seen anyone making such claims as Munna being much bigger than Waghdoh & Bamera. Not just that, I haven't seen such blatant cheerleading of one particular tiger anywhere, even on the immature AVA forums.
Two people who have seen the same tiger might not agree on the size. But when one tiger is being called consistently bigger than all, by multiple photographers who have seen tigers in multiple reserves, then maybe we can take their word. eg, Waghdoh.
I too have seen wild tigers, in Ranthambhore and in Kanha, yet I don't have such strong opinions on size.
It seems no one on tigernation seems to know anything better and hence no one challenges this poster and take his opinion on everything as gospel. They have let one person hijack their website which is why I stopped going there because it has turned into one giant Munna/Banda jerkfest.
I agree for the most part, Tigenation hasn't been updated in quite some time. But a few of the posters there are good, I truly think Kay is definitely one of them. He contributes many photographs and very rarely gets caught up in the debate of individual tigers.
So I take his word about Kahna males being larger than Bandhavargh males, but I have heard from a few that the males there aren't quite as large as else where. But that being said, I would still put Bheema up there with any tiger, hes huge. And very few tigers have carried as impressive of a body as bamera, in terms of muscle definition.
Most of us know by now that every area has there own version of "Waghoh"
The tiger that is bigger than all the others.
But like you stated, someone who has been to many reserves, word, will carry more weight than a one time traveler, obviously.
That being said, I have heard from Kanwar and Anjan that Munna is very large tiger, but other than that, its pure speculation. So at the end of the day, I assume he is a large male, nothing more, nothing less.
Edit: Also, I love Kahna and Ranthambhore Tigers, both look to be large cats in their own way. Do you notice any different in size between those two locations of Tigers?
To me, Ranth tigers have slightly smaller heads than Kahna tigers but Ranth body frame look to be very tall and athletic, Kahna also looks to be tall but a little more robust. To my naked eye of course, and only through video, not like I have seen them in person.
Unfortunately
I only saw one adult male in Kanha, rest were cubs. This was in April 2012. The guide called him the Kisli male. I saw him from close on the side of the road, less than 500 mtrs from our forest rest house near the Khatia gate. He didn't look like any Kanha tiger I had seen in photographs on the internet, and I had a good look at his face. He was big, taller than both t24 & t25. Not longer though. Big head and big paws. But it was just one individual. So I am not in a position to make a comparison between RTR and Kanha.
(10-27-2015, 09:36 PM)Pckts Wrote: That tiger also resembles a youngster to me as well, but obviously impossible to know for sure.
The only thing I don't think is likely is whether or not it matters if a human is crouching or not, I never agree with the statement that Sharks confused a surfer for a seal and the same goes for a apex predator.
Their senses have evolved for many 1000s of years, they know the scent, sight and posture of all prey they hunt regularly and I highly doubt they will confuse a human being with a prey animal they have been hunting throughout history.
I agree. I think predators can make out the difference, maybe certain postures simply trigger their natural instinct to attack. Or maybe they are just looking for an opportunity.
(10-25-2015, 04:20 AM)Shardul Wrote: Apart from this particular poster on tigernation, I haven't seen anyone making such claims as Munna being much bigger than Waghdoh & Bamera. Not just that, I haven't seen such blatant cheerleading of one particular tiger anywhere, even on the immature AVA forums.
Two people who have seen the same tiger might not agree on the size. But when one tiger is being called consistently bigger than all, by multiple photographers who have seen tigers in multiple reserves, then maybe we can take their word. eg, Waghdoh.
I too have seen wild tigers, in Ranthambhore and in Kanha, yet I don't have such strong opinions on size.
It seems no one on tigernation seems to know anything better and hence no one challenges this poster and take his opinion on everything as gospel. They have let one person hijack their website which is why I stopped going there because it has turned into one giant Munna/Banda jerkfest.
I agree for the most part, Tigenation hasn't been updated in quite some time. But a few of the posters there are good, I truly think Kay is definitely one of them. He contributes many photographs and very rarely gets caught up in the debate of individual tigers.
So I take his word about Kahna males being larger than Bandhavargh males, but I have heard from a few that the males there aren't quite as large as else where. But that being said, I would still put Bheema up there with any tiger, hes huge. And very few tigers have carried as impressive of a body as bamera, in terms of muscle definition.
Most of us know by now that every area has there own version of "Waghoh"
The tiger that is bigger than all the others.
But like you stated, someone who has been to many reserves, word, will carry more weight than a one time traveler, obviously.
That being said, I have heard from Kanwar and Anjan that Munna is very large tiger, but other than that, its pure speculation. So at the end of the day, I assume he is a large male, nothing more, nothing less.
Edit: Also, I love Kahna and Ranthambhore Tigers, both look to be large cats in their own way. Do you notice any different in size between those two locations of Tigers?
To me, Ranth tigers have slightly smaller heads than Kahna tigers but Ranth body frame look to be very tall and athletic, Kahna also looks to be tall but a little more robust. To my naked eye of course, and only through video, not like I have seen them in person.
Unfortunately
I only saw one adult male in Kanha, rest were cubs. This was in April 2012. The guide called him the Kisli male. I saw him from close on the side of the road, less than 500 mtrs from our forest rest house near the Khatia gate. He didn't look like any Kanha tiger I had seen in photographs on the internet, and I had a good look at his face. He was big, taller than both t24 & t25. Not longer though. Big head and big paws. But it was just one individual. So I am not in a position to make a comparison between RTR and Kanha.
Btw, Kay is a woman :)
Oh my mistake, please don't tell her I have been calling her a man, haha
So the Kisli male was Taller than T24 or T25 but not as long. Very interesting as I considered T24 and T25 very tall tigers, one would have to assume that "Kisli male" would come in around the 240kg mark just like T24 than. Great info Shardul, thanks for sharing.
(10-27-2015, 09:36 PM)Pckts Wrote: That tiger also resembles a youngster to me as well, but obviously impossible to know for sure.
The only thing I don't think is likely is whether or not it matters if a human is crouching or not, I never agree with the statement that Sharks confused a surfer for a seal and the same goes for a apex predator.
Their senses have evolved for many 1000s of years, they know the scent, sight and posture of all prey they hunt regularly and I highly doubt they will confuse a human being with a prey animal they have been hunting throughout history.
I agree. I think predators can make out the difference, maybe certain postures simply trigger their natural instinct to attack. Or maybe they are just looking for an opportunity.
This I 100% agree with.
The minute you turn your back on a house cat they stalk you, let a lone an apex predator. You can watch it with BlackjaguarWhiteTiger foundation, every time he turns away from certain cats they always attack him.
The story behind Bheem's encounter with Bhagoda and Bamera.
At the entrance to Bandhavargh National Park, we saw an adult male tiger (Bhagoda) make his way into the park and out of sight....about 10 min later, a second male emerged (Bheem), following the first tiger's exact path, and with his fur puffed up at attention....it seemed that something was about to go down!
Below pic shows Bheem (Tarun) searching for Bhagoda. Remember Bheem came from Khtiauli into Bhagoda's territory to challenge him.
*This image is copyright of its original author
The second male (Bheem) catches up to the first (Bhagoda), and an uneasy, tense situation ensued - male tigers are solitary and control exclusive territory. Here, the second tiger is an upstart male who wants to challenge the incumbent for his territory. Engaging in a fight is very dangerous - while spoils are potentially available to the victor, a fight can leave one or both tigers wounded and unable to hunt or defend themselves.
Below pics show Bheem coming at Bhagoda
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
Walking side by side....the incumbent did his best to completely ignore the challenger, while the challenger juked and invaded his personal space. Again, note how the challenger is puffed up, while the reigning champ is at ease.
This shows that Bheem was more dominant of the two.
*This image is copyright of its original author
The standoff continued, as they wandered off into a field, where the incumbent tiger (Bhagoda), distracted by the challenger ( Bheem), suddenly came face to face with a 2,000 lb. male Gaur (Indian Bison), who immediately stood to full height, stomped, snorted, and confronted the tiger. (at this point, I put down my camera to watch - luckily, our lodge owner kept shooting, and this and the next 3 pics are his - very grateful that he was willing to share)
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
Having made his point, the Gaur stormed ahead and eventually came to a stop near our jeep - such an awesome and lucky thing to experience!
Around 30 min later, we came upon a third male (Bamera). This guy was quite old, and while once the territorial king, had lost some battles and was now surviving by going outside the park and taking down cattle.
The challenger (Bheem) from the previous pics had given up on the first tiger (Bhagoda), but had then encountered this guy (Bamera), and the two had engaged in a fight. The bloodied warrior Bamera looked tired, but still dignified.
Bhagoda went from having a bad day to worse, facing down a monster male that is intent to fight to facing down a massive bull guar with another guar behind him.
How long ago was this?
Is this after bheem defeated Jobhi?
How old is Bamera? I think he's aged poorly, but isn't necessarily that old in raw terms, as if I'm not mistaken, I remember watching him displace B2 back in 2009-2010 when he was supposedly young.
(10-28-2015, 11:13 PM)tigerluver Wrote: How old is Bamera? I think he's aged poorly, but isn't necessarily that old in raw terms, as if I'm not mistaken, I remember watching him displace B2 back in 2009-2010 when he was supposedly young.
My guess is Bamera is around the 8-10 year mark but others would be more suited to tell you for sure, but Bandhavargh is very much like Kahna, many males and high levels of infighting. For as long as I have followed it, it seems as though fights happen there quite often.
Bamera won his territory through fighting and has been forced to defend it from the likes of his son to these big males coming in. No rest for a ruler, that is for sure.
