The "King" of the bears - comparison between the Polar bear and the Brown bear

[Panther]

(12-14-2018, 01:09 AM)Shadow Wrote: Quote:

"So, they're older than 6+ individuals means 7+(or 8) individuals. Although, i don't really think a 8 year old male Brown bear is not adult. 

The calculation is alright, both based on 10 specimens. Believe me.

So, I really don't think 9 year old male Kodiak bears aren't gonna surpass 800lbs mark on average. But of course individuals vary, especially in Alaskan Brown bears where they can pack more fat throughout their lives..."

My last posting here was exactly about this part of your message. I disagree with you and I explained why in my posting. I leave it up to others to consider which one is giving more reasonable opinion and explanation here. I have nothing to change to my posting at this point, I wrote about my observations and gave reasoning.

You explained me by denying the sources calling them "old", "unreliable" or whatever possible for you to claim. 
And you in your last post here back up by nothing but...
"But when looking at all information, what I have seen I assume, that it is after all Kodiak bear most probably. I think like that because local officials even today say, that Kodiaks are biggest bears there and vast majority of known "monster sized" bears are Kodiaks. And there has to be reason why trophy hunters are so eager to get license to hunt especially at Kodiak islands."

Quote:I know this chart in your posting here and it has many problems as it is explained in that chart itself and there is warning to be cautious in making comparison based on that. Alone that should tell to anyone, that not making too big conclusions based on that. Still makers of that book write based on that, that bears on Alaskan peninsula are biggest :) I find that quite odd and it raises a lot of questions how credible that book is what comes to that claim, especially when there are other research giving so different results.

If I understand correctly, you're in your past reply talking about one chart and denying other chart. But there are two different charts and their studies. 

Also, not the book but the study I posted claimed Alaska peninsula brown bears are the biggest. I suggest you to read again. 
"especially when there are other research giving so different results."?
Please show me the other research?

Quote:Then again you say: "Also on other hand it seems the 9 year old Brown bear is reaching it's full size in summer according to this chart ..." Difficult to understand, that what on earth you are trying to say with that.

9 year old bear as a bear in any age is light in spring and after breeding time if sexually mature and then heavy in late autumn. 9-10 years old brown bear can be considered as fully grown even though it can continue up to 11 years and if I remember right even to 14 years old sometimes. But it is quite common agreement, that bear aged 9-10 years old can be considered as fully grown, even though they gain more weight after that too

That is actually not a reply for you. That is a reply for brotherbear claiming Brown bears get significantly larger even after the age 9. 
What I'm trying to say is they can grow but not "significantly" larger. And that based on individual. Reply

[Shadow]

(12-14-2018, 01:31 AM)Panther Wrote:

(12-14-2018, 01:09 AM)Shadow Wrote: Quote:

"So, they're older than 6+ individuals means 7+(or 8) individuals. Although, i don't really think a 8 year old male Brown bear is not adult. 

The calculation is alright, both based on 10 specimens. Believe me.

So, I really don't think 9 year old male Kodiak bears aren't gonna surpass 800lbs mark on average. But of course individuals vary, especially in Alaskan Brown bears where they can pack more fat throughout their lives..."

My last posting here was exactly about this part of your message. I disagree with you and I explained why in my posting. I leave it up to others to consider which one is giving more reasonable opinion and explanation here. I have nothing to change to my posting at this point, I wrote about my observations and gave reasoning.

You explained me by denying the sources calling them "old", "unreliable" or whatever possible for you to claim. 
And you in your last post here back up by nothing but...
"But when looking at all information, what I have seen I assume, that it is after all Kodiak bear most probably. I think like that because local officials even today say, that Kodiaks are biggest bears there and vast majority of known "monster sized" bears are Kodiaks. And there has to be reason why trophy hunters are so eager to get license to hunt especially at Kodiak islands."

I already told you that I'm not here to discuss with you. Which in past resulted in more than two weeks.
And what you finally gonna say is nothing but...
"I have nothing to change to my posting at this point".

Quote:I know this chart in your posting here and it has many problems as it is explained in that chart itself and there is warning to be cautious in making comparison based on that. Alone that should tell to anyone, that not making too big conclusions based on that. Still makers of that book write based on that, that bears on Alaskan peninsula are biggest :) I find that quite odd and it raises a lot of questions how credible that book is what comes to that claim, especially when there are other research giving so different results.

If I understand correctly, you're in your past reply talking about one chart and denying other chart. But there are two different charts and their studies. 

Also, not the book but the study I posted claimed Alaska peninsula brown bears are the biggest. I suggest you to read again. 
"especially when there are other research giving so different results."?
Please show me the other research?

Quote:Then again you say: "Also on other hand it seems the 9 year old Brown bear is reaching it's full size in summer according to this chart ..." Difficult to understand, that what on earth you are trying to say with that.

9 year old bear as a bear in any age is light in spring and after breeding time if sexually mature and then heavy in late autumn. 9-10 years old brown bear can be considered as fully grown even though it can continue up to 11 years and if I remember right even to 14 years old sometimes. But it is quite common agreement, that bear aged 9-10 years old can be considered as fully grown, even though they gain more weight after that too

That is actually not a reply for you. That is a reply for brotherbear claiming Brown bears get significantly larger even after the age 9. 
What I'm trying to say is they can grow but not "significantly" larger. And that based on individual.

Then everything is good. I replied that once because you quoted me and wrote to me. Don´t do that anymore if you are not here to discuss with me :) You are free to think as you want as everyone else, I don´t mind. I don´t have anything to add or change to my postings after your latest postings, nothing more to say to you, so everything should be just fine. So feel free to continue with brotherbear if he is interested. I won´t reply to you anymore since it feels for me just waste of time as I said before. So have a nice day or night there!! :) Reply

[Shadow]

(12-13-2018, 06:04 PM)GuateGojira Wrote: @Shadow I think that you would prefer a table like this:

*This image is copyright of its original author

Guate, I noticed something else interesting when looking "Troyer-Hensel" chart and then that other one where it was used. In Troyer-Hensel document average weight 835 lbs is from 5 bears and range 715-1190 lbs. So heaviest bear in that group in kg is about 540 kg. Then in that other chart is mentioned, that heaviest bear was 611 kg. That is mentioned in Troyer-Hensel document when there is mentioned heaviest bear, which they weighed in autumn where 4 male bears were weighed and range was 960-1346 lbs. 1346 lbs is approximately 611 kg. When thinking, that 960 lbs is about 436 kg, it is easy to see difference between spring and autumn weights. That 835 lbs average seems to be from spring weights. Pity that not as much information about story behind weights of those Alaska peninsula bears.

Still also this document leaves some questions, but anyway it is a clear example with that other chart how same information can be made to give so different kind of results. There are more than one question which would be interesting to ask from Troyer and Hensel, but it was very good, that you brought it up here again. If not, at least I might have missed all this. Have to look closer soon if some other questions could be answered. Reply

Attached Files

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[Panther]

(12-14-2018, 01:43 AM)Shadow Wrote: Then everything is good. I replied that once because you quoted me and wrote to me. Don´t do that anymore if you are not here to discuss with me :) You are free to think as you want as everyone else, I don´t mind. I don´t have anything to add or change to my postings after your latest postings, nothing more to say to you, so everything should be just fine. So feel free to continue with brotherbear if he is interested. I won´t reply to you anymore since it feels for me just waste of time as I said before. So have a nice day or night there!! :)

I quoted you because you in your previous reply talked about me of providing a misleading chart and you made a "conclusion" on it. The last part is not for you, but the rest is for you. 

I'm not here to think what I want(as i said before). I need to get these things clear. 

I feel the same about you, as i explained before..

Thank you! Reply

[Panther]

Regarding the chart "Troyer Williams". I suggest to see it again clearly...

*This image is copyright of its original author

There's only 5 specimens weighed in the age of 8-9 years.

So the whole four specimens ranging 960-1346 may not be in that range to include that in the average. They might be much older than that age range. 

And I never denied older males get bigger. So, nothing will be changed. Reply

[Panther]

Wild Alaskan Brown bears are classified as the fattest of brown bears.

"This is the very fattest bear in Katmai National Park
The “fat bear week” competition in Alaska’s Katmai National Park, explained.

• By Brian Resnick 
• on October 10, 2018 9:32 am
  

 

*This image is copyright of its original author

Katmai National Park’s bear 409 (aka “Beadnose”) won the 2018 competition for fattest bear. According to the park, when “she is not raising cubs, this bear is usually one of the fattest females.”
 NPS Photo/A. Ramos
Katmai National Park & Preserve in Alaska wanted the public to weigh in on a very important question: Which of the park’s fat brown bears has gotten the fattest after a summer of nearly nonstop gorging on salmon?


Was it Bear 747, who this year truly represented the jet which shares his name?
Use the slider to see what 747 looked like in June, near the beginning of the salmon run in the park’s Brooks River. And now look at him two months later on the right. “Is that a bear, or a hippopotamus?” Katmai’s Facebook page asks.

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

[b]Katmai National Park & Preserve[/b]
Or 409, aka “Beadnose”?
Her cubs left her to go off on their own earlier this year, the park reports, “and since then this gigantic gal has only expanded her marvelous muffin top.”

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

[b]Katmai National Park & Preserve[/b]
After a day of the public voting on Facebook, Katmai has declared a winner: It’s Beadnose, a whose salmon gorge has fashioned her body into a massive almost-sphere.
“When [Beadnose] is not raising cubs,” Katmai National Park writes in her bio, “this bear is usually one of the fattest females.” Take it as a win for working moms.

*This image is copyright of its original author

Katmai National Park & Preserve
The contest culminates Katmai’s annual “Fat Bear Week” where the park asks the public to vote — March Madness style — on pairs of bears that have gone girthy during the annual salmon feeding frenzy in preparation for the winter hibernation months. Each day of the week, ending today “Fat Bear Tuesday,” had a round of competition.
Scroll down to see all the other bears Beadnose beat out.
Katmai insists “there’s no fat shaming here.” Instead, the competition is a celebration of this natural cycle, and a chance to show off the vitality of these enormous, magnificent creatures.

It’s not just a spectacle. There’s fascinating biology behind bear feasts.

*This image is copyright of its original author

Salmon jumping in Katmai National Park. Will they make it out alive?
 
NPS/D. Jacob
Every summer, hundreds of thousandsof delicious, calories-dense salmon swim up the Brooks River inside Katmai, a sparsely visited preserve where stark volcanic landscape meets the sea on the Alaskan Peninsula, to spawn. But they also inevitably encounter some of the park’s 2,200 brown bears, who, around July enter into a state of hyperphagia — aka, eating nonstop."


https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.vox.com/platform/amp/science-and-health/2018/10/9/17955432/fat-bear-week-katmai-national-park-409-747-salmon Reply

[Shadow]

(12-14-2018, 07:56 AM)Panther Wrote: Regarding the chart "Troyer Williams". I suggest to see it again clearly...

*This image is copyright of its original author

There's only 5 specimens weighed in the age of 8-9 years.

So the whole four specimens ranging 960-1346 may not be in that range to include that in the average. They might be much older than that age range. 

And I never denied older males get bigger. So, nothing will be changed.

Just to clear this so, that maybe you too would understand. Those bears mentioned 960-1346 lbs were from autumn weighing and those are a sidenote in that chart. In chart itself is a different weight range for 5 bears in age class 8-9 years old was 715-1190 lbs. There are some things which would be nice to know better, but when on chart there are bears aging 8-9 years old, looks like, that some weighed bears have been ruled out from chart based on that. For instance that heaviest bear mentioned seem to be one such bear.

As I say, it would be nice to make some questions to people who made that chart to clear some details. Otherwise I have already said what I have to say about these charts at this point, so I am not starting to repeat all over again. It is all there in my previous postings. Reply

[Panther]

(12-14-2018, 01:08 PM)Shadow Wrote: Just to clear this so, that maybe you too would understand. Those bears mentioned 960-1346 lbs were from autumn weighing and those are a sidenote in that chart. In chart itself is a different weight range for 5 bears in age class 8-9 years old was 715-1190 lbs. There are some things which would be nice to know better, but when on chart there are bears aging 8-9 years old, looks like, that some weighed bears have been ruled out from chart based on that. For instance that heaviest bear mentioned seem to be one such bear.

As I say, it would be nice to make some questions to people who made that chart to clear some details. Otherwise I have already said what I have to say about these charts at this point, so I am not starting to repeat all over again. It is all there in my previous postings.

Yeah, but there's no mentioned that these 5 bears of 8-9 years weighed in spring. 

As I said, those 4 male Brown bears were definitely be older than this age class, which is why they didn't included the average of 8-9 year old male brown bears.

So those bears most likely be much older males probably in the age of 13-14 years. As Brown bear males are considered to reach their maximum size at 14years, which was mentioned in the study I posted...

EDIT:I just looked up the chart again. So, like you said, three males in that average weighed in spring. Reply

[Shadow]

(12-14-2018, 01:55 PM)Panther Wrote:

(12-14-2018, 01:08 PM)Shadow Wrote: Just to clear this so, that maybe you too would understand. Those bears mentioned 960-1346 lbs were from autumn weighing and those are a sidenote in that chart. In chart itself is a different weight range for 5 bears in age class 8-9 years old was 715-1190 lbs. There are some things which would be nice to know better, but when on chart there are bears aging 8-9 years old, looks like, that some weighed bears have been ruled out from chart based on that. For instance that heaviest bear mentioned seem to be one such bear.

As I say, it would be nice to make some questions to people who made that chart to clear some details. Otherwise I have already said what I have to say about these charts at this point, so I am not starting to repeat all over again. It is all there in my previous postings.

Yeah, but there's no mentioned that these 5 bears of 8-9 years weighed in spring. 

As I said, those 4 male Brown bears were definitely be older than this age class, which is why they didn't included the average of 8-9 year old male brown bears.

So those bears most likely be much older males probably in the age of 13-14 years. As Brown bear males are considered to reach their maximum size at 14years, which was mentioned in the study I posted...

I add this here still to point out, why I am very cautious with charts about bears, if there is no information about ages or times when weighed. We have now chart with 5 bears from Alaskan peninsula and age group is mentioned to be 9+ years. So all we know, that all bears should be at least 9 years old or older, no idea how much older oldest were. Average weight is told to be 389 kg and weighing time can be anything from spring to autumn.

Now when source file for Kodiak weights was found, it could be noticed, that when taking to comparison 5 Kodiak bears in age class 8-9 years old, average weight of 5 bears was 379 kg (835 lbs). It is not clear when these bears were weighed, but it looks like, that to this chart was included bears inside age class 8-9 and weights for sure could be from spring or autumn too.

Ok, so we have here bear average weights and no certainty about time of year when weighed. Then what comes to Alaskan peninsula bears also no idea how old bears have been, but from Kodiak bears it is clearly told, that no older, than 8-9 years old. So it is still unfair situation for Kodiaks. When looking all figures, it is impossible to add random figures, but there is one bear, which can be added to comparison, because anyone can see, that it is not included to chart. It is that 1346 lbs individual, which simply has to be older, than 9 years.

So, 5 Alaskan peninsula bears 9 years old or older, average weight 389 kg.
Then 5 Kodiak bears 8-9 years old, average weight 379 kg + 1 older Kodiak bear, weight 611 kg (1346 lbs). Average weight is now 417,5 kg and can anyone say, that this is unfair comparison based on known information about these charts?

So this is the reason, why I am very cautious with charts if there is not good information, that how data has been collected. Reply

[Panther]

(12-14-2018, 02:23 PM)Shadow Wrote: I add this here still to point out, why I am very cautious with charts about bears, if there is no information about ages or times when weighed. We have now chart with 5 bears from Alaskan peninsula and age group is mentioned to be 9+ years. So all we know, that all bears should be at least 9 years old or older, no idea how much older oldest were. Average weight is told to be 389 kg and weighing time can be anything from spring to autumn.

Now when source file for Kodiak weights was found, it could be noticed, that when taking to comparison 5 Kodiak bears in age class 8-9 years old, average weight of 5 bears was 379 kg (835 lbs). It is not clear when these bears were weighed, but it looks like, that to this chart was included bears inside age class 8-9 and weights for sure could be from spring or autumn too.

Ok, so we have here bear average weights and no certainty about time of year when weighed. Then what comes to Alaskan peninsula bears also no idea how old bears have been, but from Kodiak bears it is clearly told, that no older, than 8-9 years old. So it is still unfair situation for Kodiaks. When looking all figures, it is impossible to add random figures, but there is one bear, which can be added to comparison, because anyone can see, that it is not included to chart. It is that 1346 lbs individual, which simply has to be older, than 9 years.

So, 5 Alaskan peninsula bears 9 years old or older, average weight 389 kg.
Then 5 Kodiak bears 8-9 years old, average weight 379 kg + 1 older Kodiak bear, weight 611 kg (1346 lbs). Average weight is now 417,5 kg and can anyone say, that this is unfair comparison based on known information about these charts?

So this is the reason, why I am very cautious with charts if there is not good information, that how data has been collected.

The average of 389kgs for Alaska peninsula Brown bear is clearly not a fair average for two reasons.

Reason 1: It based on Just 5 specimens to get the average for the whole population.

Reason 2: All bears weighed are 9+(10 or 11) individuals. These are post prime males, which are larger and heavier than 9 year old males. 

So, I fairly disagree with that average. However, the following chart (which I posted above) gave more reasonable average. 

*This image is copyright of its original author

It gives 357kgs(787lbs) based on 21 males. Which is more reasonable. 

Based on this chart, the average weight of adult male Kodiak bear is 700lbs. 
And Logically these kodiaK bears are started from age group of no less than 8year old individuals. 

Don't get the impression of 8 year old males are no less than 700lbs because individuals vary. 

Which is why I'm not agreeing with the average of 835lbs(based on 5 specimens) for whole Kodiak bear population. 

And the 1346lbs individual is definitely not in the age group of 8-9. I bet it's not even in the 9-10 age group. It's definitely a 12+ year old individual, where males almost reach their maximum weight. So, you can't include that older and exceptional specimen into this to get a average.

If you get the average based on both charts 700lbs - 835lbs, you'll get 767.5lbs. I'm not sure, but the previous figure i gave for Kodiak bears (which is 800lbs) is greater than this.. Reply

[brotherbear]

Still no average weights found for 9+ year old male Kodiak bear. 
In fact, neither have we an average weight posted for 9+ year old male polar bear.
And as Shadow said: But it is quite common agreement, that bear aged 9-10 years old can be considered as fully grown, even though they gain more weight after that too. Reply

[Shadow]

(12-14-2018, 08:02 PM)brotherbear Wrote: Still no average weights found for 9+ year old male Kodiak bear. 
In fact, neither have we an average weight posted for 9+ year old male polar bear.
And as Shadow said: But it is quite common agreement, that bear aged 9-10 years old can be considered as fully grown, even though they gain more weight after that too.

I think, that at this point it is safe to say based on latest discussion in recent days, that at least no-one has proven brown bears at some other region to overcome Kodiak bears in size or weight. Is it possible, that there is a population, which is in average bigger.... maybe, but to prove that would be needed much better data, than so far has been here. Time will tell if someone finds something new to publish here or maybe something old and forgotten, where is good information making fair and reliable comparisons possible.

If I write more about this topic anytime soon, without any new information from me or someone else, please someone shoot me Reply

[Panther]

(12-14-2018, 08:02 PM)brotherbear Wrote: Still no average weights found for 9+ year old male Kodiak bear. 
In fact, neither have we an average weight posted for 9+ year old male polar bear.
And as Shadow said: But it is quite common agreement, that bear aged 9-10 years old can be considered as fully grown, even though they gain more weight after that too.

Well I remember you said 9 year old is fully grown here...
https://wildfact.com/forum/topic-bear-an...9#pid63729

But now you asking 9+(10) year old individuals? 

Maximum isn't average weight. Individuals vary, not all brown bears reach and surpass 1300lb mark at 14 years age. That based on individual. 


The study I posted above is logically based on no less than 8 year old individuals. 
Show me a research, study or an expert claiming 8 year old individual isn't fully grown? 

I'm not trying to be rude, but you need to back up something on your side too. Because I already shown that on average male Brown bears reaching their full size in almost all dimensions at 6 years. And already shown that Alaskan Brown bears reach sexual maturity at age 6. So, don't the two years time is enough for a brown bear to reach it's full size in all dimensions and weight? Reply

[GuateGojira]

So, the weight of 611 kg from the largest Alaska bear in scientific records (that I have saw) is a "fat" weight, while the figure of 540 kg is a "lean" weight, which is more reliable, am I correct?

With the maximum average at about 379 kg for the largest brown bear population, it seems clear that the winner for the title of the "king" of bears is still  the polar bear, with an average weight of 489 kg at Hudson Bay (94 males over 5 years old) and a maximum weigh of 699 kg recorded in Alaska (some males were to heavy to be lift and were estimated to weight 800 kg).

Did polar bears also suffer from the "age and season" issue like the brown bears? I think is a relevant question. Reply

[Panther]

(12-15-2018, 08:28 AM)GuateGojira Wrote: So, the weight of 611 kg from the largest Alaska bear in scientific records (that I have saw) is a "fat" weight, while the figure of 540 kg is a "lean" weight, which is more reliable, am I correct?

With the maximum average at about 379 kg for the largest brown bear population, it seems clear that the winner for the title of the "king" of bears is still  the polar bear, with an average weight of 489 kg at Hudson Bay (94 males over 5 years old) and a maximum weigh of 699 kg recorded in Alaska (some males were to heavy to be lift and were estimated to weight 800 kg).

Did polar bears also suffer from the "age and season" issue like the brown bears? I think is a relevant question.

I don't think the 540kgs is a "lean" weight. Since the difference is just 70kgs.

The reliable average I guess for 9 year old male Kodiak is 362kgs(800lbs), being larger than 357kgs of Alaska peninsula brown bears... Reply