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The Java Tiger (Panthera tigris sondaica)

Guatemala GuateGojira Offline
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#91

Bali tiger, size and genetic - quick review:

About the size of the Bali tiger, we only know 5 skulls of female specimens (one is even a subadult - Senckenberg Museum No. 2576) and 3 males, together with a few skins. Appart from that, there are a few measurements presented by Sody but that is all. Here is the list of the skulls:

*This image is copyright of its original author


*This image is copyright of its original author


The last one is a new add and Mazák did not knew about it. It is now the largest Balinese tiger skull available.

Here is a comparative graphic that I made years ago of the Bali tiger skulls with those of the other Sunda tigers and you can see that the skulls, although in the lower end, did fit in the range of the other Sunda populations:

*This image is copyright of its original author


Take in count that this image exclude the sub-adults female of 252 mm, which result to be the "holotype". Taking this in count, the smallest tiger skull from a full grow adult specimens is, in fact, a female Caspian tigress of 255.5 mm in greatest length (Mazák, 1983-2013).

Here is the picture of the Gondol tiger skull, it is bigger than the biggest jaguar skull, so you can guess its size/weight:

*This image is copyright of its original author


*This image is copyright of its original author


*This image is copyright of its original author

I trust more in the measurements published by Buzas & Farkas (1997), but I put this image to show you were I got the skull pictures.

Now, here are the pictures of the Bali tigers that I have (second and third are the same specimen, the Gondol tiger), please put special attention to the last one:

*This image is copyright of its original author


*This image is copyright of its original author


*This image is copyright of its original author


*This image is copyright of its original author


*This image is copyright of its original author


As you can see, the evidence is very few and although the skulls may suggest that the Bali tiger was smaller than the other Sunda populations (like Mazák concluded), the pictures show that this maybe not entirely accurate as these specimens are as large as those from Sumatra and Java.

Please, take a look to these three pictures, the first is the largest Sumatran tiger in record (Slamet with 148.2 kg), the second is the giant Javanese tiger and the third is the biggest Balinese tiger that I have ever saw:

*This image is copyright of its original author


*This image is copyright of its original author


*This image is copyright of its original author

To be honest, the difference is minimum. So, my conclution is that based in the few skulls and skins, Bali tigers were smaller but not the punny darfs of just 100 kg that we belive now, they were probably somewhat heavier and maybe new specimens in museums that are still incorrectly labeled may help to solve this case. Using the isometric calculation and using only tigers (captive and wild) I consturcted this table some years ago:

*This image is copyright of its original author


This table shows that Mazák was probably right about his estimations of weight of theBalinese  females but probably not in males, which I estimate were heavier. Please take in count that the table with the final results take in count only the calculations from the captive specimens because they closelly match those of the real figures of the known specimens, but at the end the figures could be higher, with a maximum weight of up to 183 kg for the largest Java tiger. Now, every time that you quote the table of Mazák (1981) regarding the size of the Bali tiger, remember that the figures are just calculations, not real figures, check this (from Mazák et al. (1976) "On the Bali tiger, Panthera tigris balica (Schwarz, 1912)":

*This image is copyright of its original author


I think that Mazák was a bit conserviative with his weights calculations, as Sumatran tigers of that same length weight more than just 100 kg.

Regarding the DNA studies, the document of Xue at al. (2015) is were the DNA of the three subspecies/populations was tested. The result, read the abstract:
"The Bali (Panthera tigris balica) and Javan (P. t. sondaica) tigers are recognized as distinct tiger subspecies that went extinct in the 1940s and 1980s, respectively. Yet their genetic ancestry and taxonomic status remain controversial. Following ancient DNA procedures, we generated concatenated 1750bp mtDNA sequences from 23 museum samples including 11 voucher specimens from Java and Bali and compared these to diagnostic mtDNA sequences from 122 specimens of living tiger subspecies and the extinct Caspian tiger. The results revealed a close genetic affinity of the 3 groups from the Sunda Islands (Bali, Javan, and Sumatran tigers P. t. sumatrae). Bali and Javan mtDNA haplotypes differ from Sumatran haplotypes by 1–2 nucleotides, and the 3 island populations define a monophyletic assemblage distinctive and equidistant from other mainland subspecies. Despite this close phylogenetic relationship, no mtDNA haplotype was shared between Sumatran and Javan/Bali tigers, indicating little or no matrilineal gene flow among the islands after they were colonized. The close phylogenetic relationship among Sunda tiger subspecies suggests either recent colonization across the islands, or else a once continuous tiger population that had subsequently isolated into different island subspecies. This supports the hypothesis that the Sumatran tiger is the closest living relative to the extinct Javan and Bali tigers."

Take a look to the paper, this shows more information. The link is: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4406268/

A couple of images to make you more interested:

a - Geographic distribution of mtDNA haplotypes:

*This image is copyright of its original author



b - Phylogeny of Panthera tigris mtDNA sequences:

*This image is copyright of its original author


*This image is copyright of its original author


Finally Willting et al. (2016) concluded that the diference between the Sunda tigers is minimal and may be clasify as a single subspecies (Panthera tigris sondaica). I am agree with that, but I can't deny that the Java/Bali tigers do have some characteristics that the Sumatran tigers do not have and a previous documents of J.H. Mazák (2010) suggested that the Sumatran tigers were like an "hybrid" between the mainland and the island populations. Even than, the deeper analysis of Wilting and coleges show that the island tigers are the same subspecies with its own slight differences.
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Guatemala GuateGojira Offline
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#92

(09-26-2015, 04:56 AM)tigerluver Wrote:
*This image is copyright of its original author

Source (p. 246 and onward)

Now, I'm assuming that those absurdly long tigers were measured over curves based on the numbers themselves and the mass associated. I also noted that the author asserts that the Bali and Javan tiger may be of the same stature, as @GuateGojira theorized.

@tigerluver, as this old link do not work anymore and because I lost this paper in my old computer, is it posible to you to upload this chapter about the Java tiger again here?

If is posible I will thank you a lot!  Happy
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United States tigerluver Offline
Prehistoric Feline Expert
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Moderators
#93

(01-01-2019, 12:29 PM)GuateGojira Wrote:
(09-26-2015, 04:56 AM)tigerluver Wrote:
*This image is copyright of its original author

Source (p. 246 and onward)

Now, I'm assuming that those absurdly long tigers were measured over curves based on the numbers themselves and the mass associated. I also noted that the author asserts that the Bali and Javan tiger may be of the same stature, as @GuateGojira theorized.

@tigerluver, as this old link do not work anymore and because I lost this paper in my old computer, is it posible to you to upload this chapter about the Java tiger again here?

If is posible I will thank you a lot!  Happy


Unfortunately I cannot find the file either, sorry. Around that time my computer stopped working and I probably lost it then.
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India sanjay Offline
Co-owner of Wildfact
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#94

I suggest everyone to save your important thing in cloud. Its free and you can retrieve it easily with your account.
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Indonesia P.T.Sondaica Offline
Regular Member
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#95

Large javan tiger not 183 kg..
Just largest javan tiger in 1 data from probolinggo is 183 kg
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Indonesia phatio Offline
Tiger Expert
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#96

(12-31-2018, 01:28 PM)GuateGojira Wrote: Bali tiger, size and genetic - quick review:

About the size of the Bali tiger, we only know 5 skulls of female specimens (one is even a subadult - Senckenberg Museum No. 2576) and 3 males, together with a few skins. Appart from that, there are a few measurements presented by Sody but that is all. Here is the list of the skulls:

*This image is copyright of its original author


*This image is copyright of its original author


The last one is a new add and Mazák did not knew about it. It is now the largest Balinese tiger skull available.

Here is a comparative graphic that I made years ago of the Bali tiger skulls with those of the other Sunda tigers and you can see that the skulls, although in the lower end, did fit in the range of the other Sunda populations:

*This image is copyright of its original author


Take in count that this image exclude the sub-adults female of 252 mm, which result to be the "holotype". Taking this in count, the smallest tiger skull from a full grow adult specimens is, in fact, a female Caspian tigress of 255.5 mm in greatest length (Mazák, 1983-2013).

Here is the picture of the Gondol tiger skull, it is bigger than the biggest jaguar skull, so you can guess its size/weight:

*This image is copyright of its original author


*This image is copyright of its original author


*This image is copyright of its original author

I trust more in the measurements published by Buzas & Farkas (1997), but I put this image to show you were I got the skull pictures.

Now, here are the pictures of the Bali tigers that I have (second and third are the same specimen, the Gondol tiger), please put special attention to the last one:

*This image is copyright of its original author


*This image is copyright of its original author


*This image is copyright of its original author


*This image is copyright of its original author


*This image is copyright of its original author


As you can see, the evidence is very few and although the skulls may suggest that the Bali tiger was smaller than the other Sunda populations (like Mazák concluded), the pictures show that this maybe not entirely accurate as these specimens are as large as those from Sumatra and Java.

Please, take a look to these three pictures, the first is the largest Sumatran tiger in record (Slamet with 148.2 kg), the second is the giant Javanese tiger and the third is the biggest Balinese tiger that I have ever saw:

*This image is copyright of its original author


*This image is copyright of its original author


*This image is copyright of its original author

To be honest, the difference is minimum. So, my conclution is that based in the few skulls and skins, Bali tigers were smaller but not the punny darfs of just 100 kg that we belive now, they were probably somewhat heavier and maybe new specimens in museums that are still incorrectly labeled may help to solve this case. Using the isometric calculation and using only tigers (captive and wild) I consturcted this table some years ago:

*This image is copyright of its original author


This table shows that Mazák was probably right about his estimations of weight of theBalinese  females but probably not in males, which I estimate were heavier. Please take in count that the table with the final results take in count only the calculations from the captive specimens because they closelly match those of the real figures of the  known specimens, but at the end the figures could be higher, with a maximum weight of up to 183 kg for the largest Java tiger. Now, every time that you quote the table of Mazák (1981) regarding the size of the Bali tiger, remember that the figures are just calculations, not real figures, check this (from Mazák et al. (1976) "On the Bali tiger, Panthera tigris balica (Schwarz, 1912)":

*This image is copyright of its original author


I think that Mazák was a bit conserviative with his weights calculations, as Sumatran tigers of that same length weight more than just 100 kg.

Regarding the DNA studies, the document of Xue at al. (2015) is were the DNA of the three subspecies/populations was tested. The result, read the abstract:
"The Bali (Panthera tigris balica) and Javan (P. t. sondaica) tigers are recognized as distinct tiger subspecies that went extinct in the 1940s and 1980s, respectively. Yet their genetic ancestry and taxonomic status remain controversial. Following ancient DNA procedures, we generated concatenated 1750bp mtDNA sequences from 23 museum samples including 11 voucher specimens from Java and Bali and compared these to diagnostic mtDNA sequences from 122 specimens of living tiger subspecies and the extinct Caspian tiger. The results revealed a close genetic affinity of the 3 groups from the Sunda Islands (Bali, Javan, and Sumatran tigers P. t. sumatrae). Bali and Javan mtDNA haplotypes differ from Sumatran haplotypes by 1–2 nucleotides, and the 3 island populations define a monophyletic assemblage distinctive and equidistant from other mainland subspecies. Despite this close phylogenetic relationship, no mtDNA haplotype was shared between Sumatran and Javan/Bali tigers, indicating little or no matrilineal gene flow among the islands after they were colonized. The close phylogenetic relationship among Sunda tiger subspecies suggests either recent colonization across the islands, or else a once continuous tiger population that had subsequently isolated into different island subspecies. This supports the hypothesis that the Sumatran tiger is the closest living relative to the extinct Javan and Bali tigers."

Take a look to the paper, this shows more information. The link is: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4406268/

A couple of images to make you more interested:

a - Geographic distribution of mtDNA haplotypes:

*This image is copyright of its original author



b - Phylogeny of Panthera tigris mtDNA sequences:

*This image is copyright of its original author


*This image is copyright of its original author


Finally Willting et al. (2016) concluded that the diference between the Sunda tigers is minimal and may be clasify as a single subspecies (Panthera tigris sondaica). I am agree with that, but I can't deny that the Java/Bali tigers do have some characteristics that the Sumatran tigers do not have and a previous documents of J.H. Mazák (2010) suggested that the Sumatran tigers were like an "hybrid" between the mainland and the island populations. Even than, the deeper analysis of Wilting and coleges show that the island tigers are the same subspecies with its own slight differences.

very great writing Guate, makes me rethink about the size of the Balinesse tiger. now im starting to think what if the Gondol and the Cecill Bali tigers are actualy average sized male Bali tiger (not two freak specimens), then they should weight more than just 90-100 kg as popular believe all this time. Great post again, keep it coming
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India sanjay Offline
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#97

Good to see you again @phatio
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Indonesia phatio Offline
Tiger Expert
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#98
( This post was last modified: 01-05-2019, 11:21 AM by phatio )

a young javan tiger circa 1920

*This image is copyright of its original author

this picture from a book : Nederlandsch-Indië oud & nieuw - Nederlandsch-Indië oud & nieuw; Lot met 3 jaargangen - 1920

*This image is copyright of its original author


*This image is copyright of its original author

@peter have you read this book already? 
Based from it's newly growing canine tooth, obviously this is a very young or sub adult tiger.
@GrizzlyClaws  and @tigerluver, you guys knows about tooth/bones better than me, how old do you think this tiger is?
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Indonesia phatio Offline
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#99

(01-05-2019, 11:07 AM)sanjay Wrote: Good to see you again @phatio

Thank you @sanjay , sorry i've been busy lately my friend  Lol
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Guatemala GuateGojira Offline
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(01-04-2019, 07:34 PM)P.T.Sondaica Wrote: Large javan tiger not 183 kg..
Just largest javan tiger in 1 data from probolinggo is 183 kg

No, the figure of 183 kg in my table is not a real weight, is just an estimation based in isometry between known specimens. The explanation, the weigh of 183 kg in the weight calculated for the largest skull (349 mm in GSL) using only wild specimens, latter the weight of 158 kg is based only in captive specimens, and the weight of 166 kg is based in all the specimens (wild and captive included). So no, the figure of 183 kg is not a real weight, just a calculation. The only known weights of Javanese tigers are a wild male of 141 kg and a captive one of 110 kg, that is all, sadly.
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Guatemala GuateGojira Offline
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(01-05-2019, 11:07 AM)phatio Wrote: @peter have you read this book already? 
Based from it's newly growing canine tooth, obviously this is a very young or sub adult tiger.
@GrizzlyClaws  and @tigerluver, you guys knows about tooth/bones better than me, how old do you think this tiger is?

Can you put the entire article please? It is VERY interesting!  Lol
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United States GrizzlyClaws Offline
Canine Expert
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(01-05-2019, 11:07 AM)phatio Wrote: a young javan tiger circa 1920

*This image is copyright of its original author

this picture from a book : Nederlandsch-Indië oud & nieuw - Nederlandsch-Indië oud & nieuw; Lot met 3 jaargangen - 1920

*This image is copyright of its original author


*This image is copyright of its original author

@peter have you read this book already? 
Based from it's newly growing canine tooth, obviously this is a very young or sub adult tiger.
@GrizzlyClaws  and @tigerluver, you guys knows about tooth/bones better than me, how old do you think this tiger is?


Having troubles to read German or Dutch, can you extract the keywords?
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United States tigerluver Offline
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Moderators

@phatio , thank you for the great information and I hope you have been well!

Based on the thinness of the canines in the lateromedial directions as well as the incomplete eruption, the tiger likely was around 1.5-2.5 years. 

Here is a specimen I studied with similar dentition:

*This image is copyright of its original author


Note the lateromedial thinness of the canine, akin to the tiger in your shared article. This cat was younger than 2 years of age.
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Indonesia P.T.Sondaica Offline
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Javan tiger is most robust tiger in the world right?
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peter Offline
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( This post was last modified: 01-13-2019, 07:26 AM by peter )

(01-05-2019, 11:07 AM)phatio Wrote: a young javan tiger circa 1920

*This image is copyright of its original author

this picture from a book : Nederlandsch-Indië oud & nieuw - Nederlandsch-Indië oud & nieuw; Lot met 3 jaargangen - 1920

*This image is copyright of its original author


*This image is copyright of its original author

@peter have you read this book already? 
Based from it's newly growing canine tooth, obviously this is a very young or sub adult tiger.
@GrizzlyClaws  and @tigerluver, you guys knows about tooth/bones better than me, how old do you think this tiger is?

Long time no see, Phatio. Yes, I saw that one some time ago. The info is from 'De Dierenwereld van Insulinde' ('The fauna of Indonesia'), written by J.H. van Balen. I have that book as well.

I used the info of Dr. Hagen on the Sumatran tiger of 215,5 cm. and 231 'Zollpfund' for the table on Sumatran tigers. Tjeenk Willink's info was skipped as too general, but I will keep his 185 kg. tiger in mind. He wasn't the only one who referred to a Sumatran tiger of that weight. I have two other reports about large Sumatran tigers shot in the days they were still present in most of Sumatra.

The description of the ground colour and stripes is detailed and interesting. J.H. van Balen says the tiger (referring to Indonesian tigers) is not as robust, but more 'terrible' than the lion. In general, info about Indonesian tigers in old books is a mix between accurate info and myth. One of the few who was different is the one who wrote a book about the Javan tiger (Hoogerwerf).
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