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+----- Thread: The Java Tiger (Panthera tigris sondaica) (/topic-the-java-tiger-panthera-tigris-sondaica)
The Java Tiger (Panthera tigris sondaica) - peter - 04-27-2014
Post information about the Java tiger in this thread. Same for the Balinese tiger, now considered a subspecies of Panthera sondaica.
RE: The Java Tiger (Panthera sondaica) - GuateGojira - 04-27-2014
A little genetic study that suggest that Javanese tigers (and by extention, Bali too) are a diferent species of Sunda tigers:
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
Credits to Phantera for the information.
RE: The Java Tiger (Panthera sondaica) - GrizzlyClaws - 04-27-2014
A mere 100k years already turned them into a separated species.
However, their ancestor the Great Ngandong Tiger was still a true Panthera tigris subspecies.
RE: The Java Tiger (Panthera sondaica) - GuateGojira - 04-27-2014
Yes, even the Ngandong tiger was still Panthera tigris. I think that the great change probably happen after the Toba eruption. The great extinction of most of tiger populations probably eliminated many of the haplotypes from other populations and is highly unlikely that those particularly close to the Sunda tigers survived. In this scenario, the surviving mainland tigers from the south of China seems to not have all the same haplotypes than those surviving in the east of the Sunda shelf. This is a probably explanation to why this populations, definitively separated since about 12,000 years ago, never interbreed, except from the population that survived in the area that will give origin to the Sumatran island.
Now, about the time of separation, I am slightly skeptical now about if only 100,000 years are necessary to separate two populations in two species rather than just two much separated subspecies. The genetic variation of lions is much greater (since 600,000 years ago) and they are still somewhat close, so the relations between tigers are even closer. In the point of view of Dr Shu-Jin Luo and her team and Dr J. Mazák with Dr Groves, this is enough time and morphological studies support this point of view, but from the point of view of Dr Kitchener (and probably Yamaguchi too), this is not.
This is a good point to debate in this topic.
Is 100,000 years enough time to separate two populations into different species, or these are only two very separated, but still, close subspecies?
RE: The Java Tiger (Panthera sondaica) - GrizzlyClaws - 04-27-2014
I think the Sunda tiger has been genetically isolated from their Mainland cousins based on an arbitrary event.
So i guess it is not the same case as the pleistocene lion and the modern lion, which both species followed a parallel evolutionary path.
RE: The Java Tiger (Panthera sondaica) - GuateGojira - 04-28-2014
Completely right GrizzlyClaws. In fact, lion evolution is much easier to understand, because it is not based in too many reinvasions and arbitrary events.
Lions-leopards-jaguars, the lion clade, seem to have evolved from a common ancestor in Africa about 3.5 million years ago. It was until 600,000 years ago that the first species, the cave lion (Panthera spelaea) emerged and invaded Europe and Asia up to North America. Latter, the lion separated from the leopard about 500,000 years ago and began they own evolutionary stories; jaguars evolved too from populations in Europe (P. o. gombazzoegensis) and later expanded also all Asia and up to America, reaching the entire continent.
So, the evolution of the lion clade is almost linear, with a few bottlenecks, while that of the tiger is similar in the earlier and middle Pleistocene (tigers suppressing/replacing other tigers) but the Toba eruption was a direct and abrupt change that stopped that normal tiger evolution and eliminated all except two genetic groups, that although closely related, probably already presented they own genetic variations. However, these variations are not very great, as a complete intermix was still possible (Sumatran tigers are the result).
RE: The Java Tiger (Panthera sondaica) - GrizzlyClaws - 04-28-2014
The Sumatran tiger is a perfect example how Panthera tigris and Panthera sondaica can interbreed and produce the completely fertile offsprings, but the same cannot be said for Panthera leo and Panthera spelaea.
Thus, the conspecific classification is a very vague definition, not sure should we put two animals into two different species even they can produce the 100% fertile offsprings.
RE: The Java Tiger (Panthera sondaica) - GuateGojira - 04-28-2014
Another good point GrizzlyClaws. There is no evidence of intermix of Panthera spelaea and Panthera leo, even more impressive, there is also no evidence of intermix between Panthera spelaea and Panthera atrox at 35,000 years ago! If this is no evidence that this were two different species, I don’t know what more could be.
Sadly, eminent Paleontologists like Helmut Hemmer still support the old point of view (all are lions) and prefer to ignore the genetic analysis. However, the same ambiguity of these scientists is a problem. For example Dr Ross Barnett present clear conclusions that Panthera atrox and others are not lions per se, but he still put the name “leo” in the document, which is a clear contradiction. Even worst, in a popular document from him, he states a completely different opinion, saying that all of them are lions and simply ignoring his previous conclusions, with that of its team. [img]images/smilies/dodgy.gif[/img]
Russian scientists, on the other hand, have found that all these were different species, based in superficial and now in deep morphological differences and interpreting the original conclusions of Barnett et al. (2009), the genetic analysis, although partial (they only use mitochondrial DNA), support this point of view.
RE: The Java Tiger (Panthera sondaica) - GrizzlyClaws - 04-28-2014
By the modern taxonomy definition, Mainland tiger and Sunda tiger can be considered as two different species.
However, by the interaction behavior, their relationship can be as close as that between African lion and Asian lion.
Since some Ethiopian lions are also considered to be the African/Asian hybrid specimens. The different subspecies would have the possibility to interbreed in the wild, while the different species won't.
RE: The Java Tiger (Panthera sondaica) - GuateGojira - 04-28-2014
African and Asian original lions evolved in East Africa, but they separated and formed two different subspecies. Seidensticker & Lumpkin (2002) stated a very wide range of lion separation:
*This image is copyright of its original author
However Mitra (2005) states a more direct date for the separation:
*This image is copyright of its original author
If we take lion evolution as a surrogate for tiger, it seems that 100,000 years is not enough time to separate two animal groups in distinct species, but rater in two different subspecies, accomplishing the rule of the 75% difference (Kitchener, 2004; in Thapar (2004)). Asian and African lions can interbreed very well, just like the Mainland and the island tigers done in Sumatran. At difference than ligers and tigons, mixed lions (African x Asian) and tiger (Mainland x Island) do breed and are able to create entire viable populations.
I think, that if we use this data as evidence, the mainland tigers and the island tigers are the only two difference subspecies of tigers. However, genetic studies (Luo et al., 2004) states a different point of view, and as all the mainland tigers began to evolve since 70,000 years ago (after the Toba eruption) and already presents different genetic differences to form a subspecies. In this case, a difference of 100,000 years can be not enough time to create a direct species, but rater a subspecies with more than 80-90% of difference, practically at the brink of been a different taxa.
RE: The Java Tiger (Panthera sondaica) - GrizzlyClaws - 04-28-2014
The genetic studies showed that they are a different species; there is only one possible explanation for that.
This genetic mutation was caused by complete isolation of the population, if the Toba eruption didn't ever happen before, then such genetic barrier probably wouldn't occur between the mainland and island tiger population.
RE: The Java Tiger (Panthera sondaica) - phatio - 04-29-2014
very interesting posts guys.
what if i told you there's a possibility that some of this 'ancient tigers' do survive in some of the most remote place on the java island?
yeah i know it's hard to believe because Java is one of the most densely populated places in the world. but anyway check this up
SUNDAY, 29 SEPTEMBER, 2013
Expedition to the Hidden Lake Ranu Tompe
TEMPO.CO, Malang -
Bromo-Tengger-Semeru National Park (TNBTS) will hold an expedition to find the location of Ranu Tompe, one of six lakes at Mount Semeru.
"We have never seen it. We are only aware of its existence from the satellite images and the area maps," said the Head of TNBTS Technical Section Farianna Prabandari to Tempo on Friday.
According to Farianna, six lakes are known to exist in the TNBTS area; they are Ranu Pani, Ranu Regulo, Ranu Kumbolo, Ranu Darungan, Ranu Pakis, and Ranu Tompe.
*This image is copyright of its original author
Ranu Kumbolo, one of the well known lake at mount Semeru
The lakes were formed by volcanic activities of Mount Bromo and Mount Semeru. To date, TNBTS has yet to visit the location of Ranu Tompe. According to Elham Purnomo, one of TNBTS staff for Protection Preservation and Mapping, Ranu Tompe is hiding various flora and fauna diversities. Species of orchids and big trees, raptors such as the Javan Hawk, and leopards are expected to be found by the largest expedition of TNBTS. The flora and fauna habitation of Ranu Tompe are believed to be safe since it is located in the heart of TNBTS absolute protection zone and far from human reach. Based on the map, Ranu Tompe is located at the eastern slope of Mount Semeru at 1,744 meters above sea level. Its geographical location makes the lake a vital water reservoir for people in Lumajang, the nearby city.
"We engage the local residents who had reached the lake as our guide. Some environmental activists will also join us. Even journalists are allowed to come," said Elham. The data compilation, analysis, discussion and final report will be ready a month after the expedition.
http://en.tempo.co/read/news/2013/09/29/206517520/Expedition-to-the-Hidden-Lake-Ranu-Tompe
and ... they did it. here's the result
SUNDAY, 20 OCTOBER, 2013 | 11:04 WIB
The Untouchable Lake Ranu Tompe
TEMPO.CO, Jakarta -
*This image is copyright of its original author
The Hidden Lake Ranu Tompe
The Bromo Tengger Semeru National Park (TNBTS) is closing all access to the hidden lake Ranu Tompe after conducting the Ranu Tompe Ecology Expedition and Exploration at Bromo Tengger Semeru National Park, on October 4 to October 13.
*This image is copyright of its original author
"Ranu Tompe become an exclusive zone that must be protected from any activities outside of the Ministry of Forestry scope. Acces are only for research with special permit issued by us," said Ayu Dewi Utari, the Head of TNBTS. She admitted that many people asked about the location, phiysical appearance, and route to Ranu Tompe. But she reinforced that unlike the two other lakes on Mount Semeru where people can enjoy as a natural tourism site, Ranu Tompe is defined as a restricted area.
*This image is copyright of its original author
Tony Artaka, the coordinator of the expedition added that the whole members of the expedition team has agreed not to leak the route to Ranu Tompe except for people with special permit from TNBTS. The route had also been sterilized on their way back to make it unrecognizable.
*This image is copyright of its original author
"If we still know how to get there, it's because we have recorded the coordinate using GPS and mapped the route," said Tony.
*This image is copyright of its original author
http://en.tempo.co/read/news/2013/10/20/206523103/The-Untouchable-Lake-Ranu-Tompe
and finally the interesting part :
SATURDAY, 19 OCTOBER, 2013 | 07:26 WIB
Javan Tiger May Still Exist in Ranu Tompe
TEMPO.CO, Malang -
Many literary works state that the Javan tiger went extinct sometime between the 1950s and the 1980s. However, the existence of the tiger is actually still mysterious as many residents living near forests in Java claim to have sighted the wild animal.
"These testimonies actually give us hope that the Javan tiger is not really extinct even though our chance to see it may be extremely low," said Toni Artaka, coordinator of the Ranu Tompe Ecology Expedition and Exploration at Bromo Tengger Semeru National Park, on Wednesday.
*This image is copyright of its original author
Experts were even more excited when they spotted claw marks of the carnivore on a tree last Wednesday. Based on literary works on the tiger, claw marks that large only belong to the Sumatran tiger or Javan tiger. scratches measuring more than 13 centimeters , exceeding the size of about 19 scratches that made an impression on many other trees
Aside from that, the team also discovered footprints and feces of a large carnivore.
*This image is copyright of its original author
Muhmudin Rahmadana, Tony’s teammate, admitted this was the first time he saw a carnivore’s feces exceed the size of a regular leopard’s feces.
*This image is copyright of its original author
TNBTS head Ayu Dewi Utari backed the statements made by her men. She said that up until now, no valid literature has confirmed the extinction of the Javan tiger. In addition, many residents claimed to have spotted the ‘striped tiger’, which is what the locals dub the Javan tiger.
http://en.tempo.co/read/news/2013/10/19/206522907/Javan-Tiger-May-Still-Exist-in-Ranu-Tompe
RE: The Java Tiger (Panthera sondaica) - GrizzlyClaws - 04-29-2014
You welcome, [img]images/smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] if this is not on the Sumatra Island, then there is possible to have a remaining population of the Javan tiger.
BTW, the ancient tigers definitely existed in the prehistoric Indonesia, probably one of the largest cats of all time.
And we expect some posters from Indonesia to provide us more information about the fossil records there.
RE: The Java Tiger (Panthera sondaica) - phatio - 04-29-2014
(04-29-2014, 07:05 PM)'GrizzlyClaws' Wrote: You welcome, [img]images/smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] if this is not on the Sumatra Island, then there is possible to have a remaining population of the Javan tiger.
BTW, the ancient tigers definitely existed in the prehistoric Indonesia, probably one of the largest cats of all time.
And we expect some posters from Indonesia to provide us more information about the fossil records there.
in fact, i have one great news for you Grizz and Guate
recently (2011) a new humerus of a 'giant tiger' was found in Sangiran, Central Java.
the cat is believed to have lived between 1,8 MYA to 0,9 MYA!
sadly it's not published yet, so we don't know the exact measurement of the bone
they just said it's a giant tiger. well... It maybe an exaggeration, but it's still interesting though.
here is the full article in indonesian language. since my english is still terrible, maybe you can try with google translate, lol.
http://www.nationalgeographic.co.id/berita/2014/04/macan-raksasa-pernah-hidup-di-sangiran
(btw don't pay attention to the Illustration picture)
RE: The Java Tiger (Panthera sondaica) - GrizzlyClaws - 04-29-2014
(04-29-2014, 08:50 PM)'phatio' Wrote:(04-29-2014, 07:05 PM)'GrizzlyClaws' Wrote: You welcome, [img]images/smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] if this is not on the Sumatra Island, then there is possible to have a remaining population of the Javan tiger.
BTW, the ancient tigers definitely existed in the prehistoric Indonesia, probably one of the largest cats of all time.
And we expect some posters from Indonesia to provide us more information about the fossil records there.
in fact, i have one great news for you Grizz and Guate
recently (2011) a new humerus of a 'giant tiger' was found in Sangiran, Central Java.
the cat is believed to have lived between 1,8 MYA to 0,9 MYA!
sadly it's not published yet, so we don't know the exact measurement of the bone
they just said it's a giant tiger. well... It maybe an exaggeration, but it's still interesting though.
here is the full article in indonesian language. since my english is still terrible, maybe you can try with google translate, lol.
http://www.nationalgeographic.co.id/berita/2014/04/macan-raksasa-pernah-hidup-di-sangiran
(btw don't pay attention to the Illustration picture)
If it is a true tiger, then i assume they were using a Sabertooth cat as illustration which is clearly a misrepresentation.
I definitely believe that there should have a lot tiger fossils in Indonesia, but just people are not paying enough attention to it.