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GuateGojira · 08-25-2020, 05:56 AM

(07-30-2020, 02:24 AM)Stripedlion2 Wrote: So is the cave lion still technically a lion or no?

No, cave "lion" (Panthera spelaea) and modern lion (Panthera leo) are completelly different species. In fact, if you check the date stated for the separation in the study it says that is at 1.85 million years ago, so using the graphic of the Felidae family tree published in Hunter (2015), we can see that the divergence is the last one in the Panthera group, but is still older then the separation of other felid species as the Eurasian and the Iberian lynx, or the Clouded leopard and the Sunda clouded leopard, and about the same as the African golden cat and the Caracal or the Colocolo and the Andean cat. In all this cases we see that the species are diferent in morphologic and ecological characteristics (only the Clouded leopards seems to be very similar each other) and do not mix between them. Check the graphic, and I added the red dot showing the cave "lion":

*This image is copyright of its original author

About the characteristics, there are several studies made by Russian scientists that shows that modern lions are different from the cave ones. Also, the coat patter of the cave "lion" cubs is flat while that of the modern lion it is spotted in al the body. I remember a person that took the time to investigate the possible coat patter of the cave lion and is not equal to that of the lion (special emphasis in the tear streak present in the cubs and the adults of the paints, but completelly absent in modern lions). I remember this post from @Ghari Sher which shows this, the "B" one seems the most accurate: https://wildfact.com/forum/topic-the-cav...is?page=20

*This image is copyright of its original author

Also check this information from "SangeantSatan" posted in DeviantArt, please take in count that it was posted in 2018, so probably lack some information from the new genetic studies of 2020: https://www.deviantart.com/sargeantsatan...-749253167

So, there is enough evidence to state that we have two different species that do not intermix, in fact this is known since 2009 in the case of the American "lion" and the Cave "lion" from Eurasia, which also did not intermixed, even when they are closer than with the lion!

Stripedlion2 · 08-25-2020, 06:05 AM

(07-30-2020, 02:21 AM)GrizzlyClaws Wrote:
(07-30-2020, 01:21 AM)Stripedlion2 Wrote: So cave lions are a distinct species but are closest related to the lion today.

Maybe the difference is similar to today's mainland clouded leopard/sunda clouded leopard, chimpanzee/bonobo, eastern/western gorilla.

(08-25-2020, 05:56 AM)GuateGojira Wrote:
(07-30-2020, 02:24 AM)Stripedlion2 Wrote: So is the cave lion still technically a lion or no?

No, cave "lion" (Panthera spelaea) and modern lion (Panthera leo) are completelly different species. In fact, if you check the date stated for the separation in the study it says that is at 1.85 million years ago, so using the graphic of the Felidae family tree published in Hunter (2015), we can see that the divergence is the last one in the Panthera group, but is still older then the separation of other felid species as the Eurasian and the Iberian lynx, or the Clouded leopard and the Sunda clouded leopard, and about the same as the African golden cat and the Caracal or the Colocolo and the Andean cat. In all this cases we see that the species are diferent in morphologic and ecological characteristics (only the Clouded leopards seems to be very similar each other) and do not mix between them. Check the graphic, and I added the red dot showing the cave "lion":

*This image is copyright of its original author

About the characteristics, there are several studies made by Russian scientists that shows that modern lions are different from the cave ones. Also, the coat patter of the cave "lion" cubs is flat while that of the modern lion it is spotted in al the body. I remember a person that took the time to investigate the possible coat patter of the cave lion and is not equal to that of the lion (special emphasis in the tear streak present in the cubs and the adults of the paints, but completelly absent in modern lions). I remember this post from @Ghari Sher which shows this, the "B" one seems the most accurate: https://wildfact.com/forum/topic-the-cav...is?page=20

*This image is copyright of its original author

Also check this information from "SangeantSatan" posted in DeviantArt, please take in count that it was posted in 2018, so probably lack some information from the new genetic studies of 2020: https://www.deviantart.com/sargeantsatan...-749253167

So, there is enough evidence to state that we have two different species that do not intermix, in fact this is known since 2009 in the case of the American "lion" and the Cave "lion" from Eurasia, which also did not intermixed, even when they are closer than with the lion!

So cave lions are a different species of lion?

GuateGojira · 08-25-2020, 06:05 AM

(08-22-2020, 09:45 PM)Stripedlion2 Wrote: Does anyone know the size of the beringian cave lion?

One single study from Baryshnikov & Boerskorov (2001) calculated an average body mass of 194 kg from males and 154 kg for females. The biggest skull reported for the area (a male from Alaska) correctly measured was of 384 mm in greatest length (reported by Bone Clones and I corroborated the size with them), so probably this population was slightly bigger than the modern South African lion (the biggest population in modern time) and reaching the same maximum weights of the modern Bengal tigers (over 260 kg).

GuateGojira · 08-25-2020, 06:12 AM

(08-25-2020, 06:05 AM)Stripedlion2 Wrote: So cave lions are a different species of lion?

Nop, just a different species of Panthera. Lion is a species, so if an animal is a "different species" is already a different animal. For example, a leopard can be say that is a different species of "lion", but in this form you can see that the concept itself do not have any sence. Again, we can see that these two animales are very different although closed related, that is why I put the example of other Felidae in order to give you an idea of what changes can be made in more than 1.5 millions years of history. Other great example is the polar bear and the brown beas, which apparently are separated less than 1 million years ago and you can see how different are they.

So, is safe to say that the Cave "lion" Panthera spelaea deserves its own status of different species, is magnifecent enought that do not need to share the fame of the modern lion. The same happened with the Smilodon that even in these days there is still people that says that they are "saber tooth tigers"!

Stripedlion2 · 08-25-2020, 06:18 AM

(07-30-2020, 02:21 AM)GrizzlyClaws Wrote:
(07-30-2020, 01:21 AM)Stripedlion2 Wrote: So cave lions are a distinct species but are closest related to the lion today.

Maybe the difference is similar to today's mainland clouded leopard/sunda clouded leopard, chimpanzee/bonobo, eastern/western gorilla.

(08-25-2020, 06:12 AM)GuateGojira Wrote:
(08-25-2020, 06:05 AM)Stripedlion2 Wrote: So cave lions are a different species of lion?

Nop, just a different species of Panthera. Lion is a species, so if an animal is a "different species" is already a different animal. For example, a leopard can be say that is a different species of "lion", but in this form you can see that the concept itself do not have any sence. Again, we can see that these two animales are very different although closed related, that is why I put the example of other Felidae in order to give you an idea of what changes can be made in more than 1.5 millions years of history. Other great example is the polar bear and the brown beas, which apparently are separated less than 1 million years ago and you can see how different are they.

So, is safe to say that the Cave "lion" Panthera spelaea deserves its own status of different species, is magnifecent enought that do not need to share the fame of the modern lion. The same happened with the Smilodon that even in these days there is still people that says that they are "saber tooth tigers"!

Makes sense kind of like the jaguar and leopard they look very similar but the jaguar is stockier but they aren’t the same species. I remember when people would argue that cave lions were actually tigers on the internet that was intense.
But scientists in South Korea and I think Siberian scientists are going to use the african lioness as the surrogate for the cave lion African lion hybrid .

Stripedlion2 · 08-25-2020, 06:27 AM

(07-30-2020, 02:21 AM)GrizzlyClaws Wrote:
(07-30-2020, 01:21 AM)Stripedlion2 Wrote: So cave lions are a distinct species but are closest related to the lion today.

Maybe the difference is similar to today's mainland clouded leopard/sunda clouded leopard, chimpanzee/bonobo, eastern/western gorilla.

(08-25-2020, 06:05 AM)GuateGojira Wrote:
(08-22-2020, 09:45 PM)Stripedlion2 Wrote: Does anyone know the size of the beringian cave lion?

One single study from Baryshnikov & Boerskorov (2001) calculated an average body mass of 194 kg from males and 154 kg for females. The biggest skull reported for the area (a male from Alaska) correctly measured was of 384 mm in greatest length (reported by Bone Clones and I corroborated the size with them), so probably this population was slightly bigger than the modern South African lion (the biggest population in modern time) and reaching the same maximum weights of the modern Bengal tigers (over 260 kg).

154kg is pretty large for a female cat nowadays . And I think Wild bengals as A whole average 200kg but mainland tigers average 220kg .

Stripedlion2 · 08-25-2020, 06:40 AM

(07-30-2020, 02:21 AM)GrizzlyClaws Wrote:
(07-30-2020, 01:21 AM)Stripedlion2 Wrote: So cave lions are a distinct species but are closest related to the lion today.

Maybe the difference is similar to today's mainland clouded leopard/sunda clouded leopard, chimpanzee/bonobo, eastern/western gorilla.

(08-25-2020, 06:12 AM)GuateGojira Wrote:
(08-25-2020, 06:05 AM)Stripedlion2 Wrote: So cave lions are a different species of lion?

Nop, just a different species of Panthera. Lion is a species, so if an animal is a "different species" is already a different animal. For example, a leopard can be say that is a different species of "lion", but in this form you can see that the concept itself do not have any sence. Again, we can see that these two animales are very different although closed related, that is why I put the example of other Felidae in order to give you an idea of what changes can be made in more than 1.5 millions years of history. Other great example is the polar bear and the brown beas, which apparently are separated less than 1 million years ago and you can see how different are they.

So, is safe to say that the Cave "lion" Panthera spelaea deserves its own status of different species, is magnifecent enought that do not need to share the fame of the modern lion. The same happened with the Smilodon that even in these days there is still people that says that they are "saber tooth tigers"!

What’s the max weight that we have from skeletons of the Eurasian cave lion and the beringian cave lion.

GuateGojira · 08-25-2020, 07:12 AM

(08-25-2020, 06:18 AM)Stripedlion2 Wrote: Makes sense kind of like the jaguar and leopard they look very similar but the jaguar is stockier but they aren’t the same species. I remember when people would argue that cave lions were actually tigers on the internet that was intense.
But scientists in South Korea and I think Siberian scientists are going to use the african lioness as the surrogate for the cave lion African lion hybrid .

Jaguars and leopards are an interesting analogy, because the leopard is more related with the lion than with the jaguar, but even then they share more analogies in the coat pattern. However in the body, leopards are close to the lions than to the jaguars, the form of the skull is similar while the jaguar differ in many traits.

To use a lion as a surrogate is like use an Asian elephant for mamut, they may be related but they are not the same species. I think that I have saw too many Jurassic Park/World movies to say that resurrecting prehistoric animals is a very bad idea.

GuateGojira · 08-25-2020, 07:27 AM

(08-25-2020, 06:27 AM)Stripedlion2 Wrote: 154kg is pretty large for a female cat nowadays . And I think Wild bengals as A whole average 200kg but mainland tigers average 220kg .

You are right, 154 kg is very big for modern standards, specially if we take in count that the modern tigresses and lionesses (in the biggest subspecies/populations at least) aveage between 130 - 140 kg.

At this moment, using the largest and most reliable sample of anyone at this moment, I fount that male Bengal tigers overall average 200 kg (n=166) and in mainland only average 210 kg (n=160), however many specimens between 150 - 180 kg were included and now based in "Field Guide to Age Tigers" from Jhala & Sadhu (2017) we know that those specimens were incorrectly clasify as "adults" by the hunters (they used methods that were not very reliable, even Brander recognized that). So excluding those males the average will be 214 kg (n=139; but this excludes the sample of 42 males of Brander as he don't present the individual specimens, so we can't identify each one to eliminate the subadult ones) for "adult" males over 180 kg. Now, using only scientific records, the adult male tiger in mainland average 220 kg (n=16), the sample is much smaller, but at least we know that all the specimens are 100% adults.

Stripedlion2 · 08-25-2020, 07:29 AM

(07-30-2020, 02:21 AM)GrizzlyClaws Wrote:
(07-30-2020, 01:21 AM)Stripedlion2 Wrote: So cave lions are a distinct species but are closest related to the lion today.

Maybe the difference is similar to today's mainland clouded leopard/sunda clouded leopard, chimpanzee/bonobo, eastern/western gorilla.

(08-25-2020, 07:12 AM)GuateGojira Wrote:
(08-25-2020, 06:18 AM)Stripedlion2 Wrote: Makes sense kind of like the jaguar and leopard they look very similar but the jaguar is stockier but they aren’t the same species. I remember when people would argue that cave lions were actually tigers on the internet that was intense.
But scientists in South Korea and I think Siberian scientists are going to use the african lioness as the surrogate for the cave lion African lion hybrid .

Jaguars and leopards are an interesting analogy, because the leopard is more related with the lion than with the jaguar, but even then they share more analogies in the coat pattern. However in the body, leopards are close to the lions than to the jaguars, the form of the skull is similar while the jaguar differ in many traits.

To use a lion as a surrogate is like use an Asian elephant for mamut, they may be related but they are not the same species. I think that I have saw too many Jurassic Park/World movies to say that resurrecting prehistoric animals is a very bad idea.

Yeah jaguars are stocky built for power. The owner of the Pleistocene park said he would like to have cave lions at the park just whenever he gets enough herbivores to be at the park and reproduce . Some parts of Canada and Alaska could work too for a habitat but for now it seems like Pleistocene park/Siberia is the ideal place to put them if they are brought back.

But I don’t know what cave lion they will use to bring them back most of the cubs and tissue they got were cave lions from Siberia and yutika so I’m guessing those are beringian cave lions. But like 2 cubs are from 40-55,000 years ago I’m guessing those are the Eurasian cave lions but I think it’s interesting we may see cave lion/African lion hybrids in our lifetimes but it will be tough and it’s going to be a long journey we’ve never brought a BIG cat back from extinction. But for now I’m reading a lot about tigers in northern India,lions in South Africa,and jags in the pantanal. Soon I’ll start reading about cougars in Canada and Persian leopards.

GuateGojira · 08-25-2020, 07:36 AM

(08-25-2020, 06:40 AM)Stripedlion2 Wrote: What’s the max weight that we have from skeletons of the Eurasian cave lion and the beringian cave lion.

As far I know, there is no study about the maximum weight from Beringian cave lion, but based in the fact that all the bones are about the same size than modern lions and tigers, they probably weighed the same (100 - 270 kg).

Now, about Eurasian cave lions, an study of Guzvica (1998) estimated that the heaviest male Cave lion weighed 367 kg, but I use to quote the giant skull of 484.7 mm in greatest length, which could perfectly reach the 400 kg.

GuateGojira · 08-25-2020, 07:39 AM

(08-25-2020, 07:29 AM)Stripedlion2 Wrote: Yeah jaguars are stocky built for power. The owner of the Pleistocene park said he would like to have cave lions at the park just whenever he gets enough herbivores to be at the park and reproduce . Some parts of Canada and Alaska could work too for a habitat but for now it seems like Pleistocene park/Siberia is the ideal place to put them if they are brought back.

But I don’t know what cave lion they will use to bring them back most of the cubs and tissue they got were cave lions from Siberia and yutika so I’m guessing those are beringian cave lions. But like 2 cubs are from 40-55,000 years ago I’m guessing those are the Eurasian cave lions but I think it’s interesting we may see cave lion/African lion hybrids in our lifetimes but it will be tough and it’s going to be a long journey we’ve never brought a BIG cat back from extinction. But for now I’m reading a lot about tigers in northern India,lions in South Africa,and jags in the pantanal. Soon I’ll start reading about cougars in Canada and Persian leopards.

Yes, those two cubs are from Beringian cave "lion".

I recomend you to read also about the pumas of Chile, they match the biggest Canada/USA pumas on record.

Stripedlion2 · 08-25-2020, 07:41 AM

(07-30-2020, 02:21 AM)GrizzlyClaws Wrote:
(07-30-2020, 01:21 AM)Stripedlion2 Wrote: So cave lions are a distinct species but are closest related to the lion today.

Maybe the difference is similar to today's mainland clouded leopard/sunda clouded leopard, chimpanzee/bonobo, eastern/western gorilla.

(08-25-2020, 07:36 AM)GuateGojira Wrote:
(08-25-2020, 06:40 AM)Stripedlion2 Wrote: What’s the max weight that we have from skeletons of the Eurasian cave lion and the beringian cave lion.

As far I know, there is no study about the maximum weight from Beringian cave lion, but based in the fact that all the bones are about the same size than modern lions and tigers, they probably weighed the same (100 - 270 kg).

Now, about Eurasian cave lions, an study of Guzvica (1998) estimated that the heaviest male Cave lion weighed 367 kg, but I use to quote the giant skull of 484.7 mm in greatest length, which could perfectly reach the 400 kg.

That’s a big difference between the same species but I guess if you look at Sumatran tigers and then tigers in northern India it makes sense. It seems like Boris the cave lion male cub will be pretty large 238kg if he’s just average even if he’s small that’s still what like 190kg at least and that’s a stretch .
I just don’t know how they’re going to release them in the wild do they just release them as cubs and then say “ok good luck “ or do they have a lioness teach them how to be like african lions . I don’t know that’s the only confusion I have .

Stripedlion2 · 08-25-2020, 07:42 AM

(07-30-2020, 02:21 AM)GrizzlyClaws Wrote:
(07-30-2020, 01:21 AM)Stripedlion2 Wrote: So cave lions are a distinct species but are closest related to the lion today.

Maybe the difference is similar to today's mainland clouded leopard/sunda clouded leopard, chimpanzee/bonobo, eastern/western gorilla.

(08-25-2020, 07:39 AM)GuateGojira Wrote:
(08-25-2020, 07:29 AM)Stripedlion2 Wrote: Yeah jaguars are stocky built for power. The owner of the Pleistocene park said he would like to have cave lions at the park just whenever he gets enough herbivores to be at the park and reproduce . Some parts of Canada and Alaska could work too for a habitat but for now it seems like Pleistocene park/Siberia is the ideal place to put them if they are brought back.

But I don’t know what cave lion they will use to bring them back most of the cubs and tissue they got were cave lions from Siberia and yutika so I’m guessing those are beringian cave lions. But like 2 cubs are from 40-55,000 years ago I’m guessing those are the Eurasian cave lions but I think it’s interesting we may see cave lion/African lion hybrids in our lifetimes but it will be tough and it’s going to be a long journey we’ve never brought a BIG cat back from extinction. But for now I’m reading a lot about tigers in northern India,lions in South Africa,and jags in the pantanal. Soon I’ll start reading about cougars in Canada and Persian leopards.

Yes, those two cubs are from Beringian cave "lion".

I recomend you to read also about the pumas of Chile, they match the biggest Canada/USA pumas on record.

Yea I’ll read about them too I didn’t think cougars in Central America could reach large sizes I thought only Canadian and American cougars could reach huge sizes .

GuateGojira · 08-25-2020, 08:33 AM

(08-25-2020, 07:42 AM)Stripedlion2 Wrote: Yea I’ll read about them too I didn’t think cougars in Central America could reach large sizes I thought only Canadian and American cougars could reach huge sizes .

Central America pumas are small, probably the smaller ones of the species. In fact, when the jaguar is present, the puma is smaller, so in Central America where are the smaller jaguars, certainly here are also the smaller pumas, however as far I know, there are no weights from pumas in this region.

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