There is a world somewhere between reality and fiction. Although ignored by many, it is very real and so are those living in it. This forum is about the natural world. Here, wild animals will be heard and respected. The forum offers a glimpse into an unknown world as well as a room with a view on the present and the future. Anyone able to speak on behalf of those living in the emerald forest and the deep blue sea is invited to join.
(10-19-2023, 08:31 PM)Caggis Wrote: Here is some artwork i found in various books i have.
"Last chance on earth" - Roger Caras, illustrated by Charles Fracé :
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
The winter coat on the right seems identical to that of the siberian tiger. The tigers on the left on the other hand seem to have a coat that is very similar to that of the indian tiger. Initially i thought there had been a mistake on the part of either the publisher or artist but upon closer inspection the prey animal could be a european bison rather than a gaur or buffalo based on the patch of hair on its back. This would be consistent with a scene from the caucasus.
"Fierce and fragile" - Robert Dallet
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
This seems to me like a depiction of a large male tiger clearly showing narrow stripes of a brownish color and the typical tail pattern.
Postcard fron the red book of animals of the USSR - Vadim Gorbatov:
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
Again, very narrow and closely set stripes.
Yes!! According to Rabino (1913, p. 448), Buhse (1855, p. 272) and others, caspian tigers especially ones from the mazandaran and Gilan regions in Iran had a very bengal tiger like appearence!!! And those are great images and arts!!!
(10-19-2023, 08:31 PM)Caggis Wrote: Here is some artwork i found in various books i have.
"Last chance on earth" - Roger Caras, illustrated by Charles Fracé :
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
The winter coat on the right seems identical to that of the siberian tiger. The tigers on the left on the other hand seem to have a coat that is very similar to that of the indian tiger. Initially i thought there had been a mistake on the part of either the publisher or artist but upon closer inspection the prey animal could be a european bison rather than a gaur or buffalo based on the patch of hair on its back. This would be consistent with a scene from the caucasus.
"Fierce and fragile" - Robert Dallet
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
This seems to me like a depiction of a large male tiger clearly showing narrow stripes of a brownish color and the typical tail pattern.
Postcard fron the red book of animals of the USSR - Vadim Gorbatov:
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
Again, very narrow and closely set stripes.
Yes!! According to Rabino (1913, p. 448), Buhse (1855, p. 272) and others, caspian tigers especially ones from the mazandaran and Gilan regions in Iran had a very bengal tiger like appearence!!! And those are great images and arts!!!
Thank you! Could you expand on these publications you mention? I am quite ignorant on the matter and will have to check them out!
(10-19-2023, 08:31 PM)Caggis Wrote: Here is some artwork i found in various books i have.
"Last chance on earth" - Roger Caras, illustrated by Charles Fracé :
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
The winter coat on the right seems identical to that of the siberian tiger. The tigers on the left on the other hand seem to have a coat that is very similar to that of the indian tiger. Initially i thought there had been a mistake on the part of either the publisher or artist but upon closer inspection the prey animal could be a european bison rather than a gaur or buffalo based on the patch of hair on its back. This would be consistent with a scene from the caucasus.
"Fierce and fragile" - Robert Dallet
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
This seems to me like a depiction of a large male tiger clearly showing narrow stripes of a brownish color and the typical tail pattern.
Postcard fron the red book of animals of the USSR - Vadim Gorbatov:
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
Again, very narrow and closely set stripes.
Yes!! According to Rabino (1913, p. 448), Buhse (1855, p. 272) and others, caspian tigers especially ones from the mazandaran and Gilan regions in Iran had a very bengal tiger like appearence!!! And those are great images and arts!!!
Thank you! Could you expand on these publications you mention? I am quite ignorant on the matter and will have to check them out!
Well, regarding Rabino, He was a British consul who served and lived in Resht in Iran during the early 1900´s!! He wrote many articles about the region and the people there, one is called: "A Journey in Mazandaran(from Resht to Sari)" and the other "Geographical Journal"!
In those articles he wrote about the caspian tigers and how similar they were to the bengal tigers in India!! Especially one that was captured at the mountains near Savadkuh!
Another writer called Binder also compared the caspian tigers to the bengal, however Binder was more focused in comparing the animals sizes than appearences! In Gillan they seem to get bigger!!
10-24-2023, 04:16 PM( This post was last modified: 10-24-2023, 04:37 PM by lfelipe86 )
I have found this article about Caspian tigers extinction and sightings in Turkey!! It tells about how caspian tigers may have survived long after they were considered officialy extinct!!
In the article they talk about sightings in Sirnak in 2001!! However i´ve read reports of caspian tiger sightings in Sirnak and Hakkari after that! In 2002 and 2003 and in Hakkari in 2007 and 2010!
And appears that caspian tigers existed in southwestern Turkey until recently too!
(10-24-2023, 04:16 PM)lfelipe86 Wrote: I have found this article about Caspian tigers extinction and sightings in Turkey!! It tells about how caspian tigers may have survived long after they were considered officialy extinct!!
In the article they talk about sightings in Sirnak in 2001!! However i´ve read reports of caspian tiger sightings in Sirnak and Hakkari after that! In 2002 and 2003 and in Hakkari in 2007 and 2010!
And appears that caspian tigers existed in southwestern Turkey until recently too!
10-26-2023, 04:57 AM( This post was last modified: 10-26-2023, 04:58 AM by lfelipe86 )
(10-25-2023, 04:19 AM)peter Wrote:
(10-24-2023, 04:16 PM)lfelipe86 Wrote: I have found this article about Caspian tigers extinction and sightings in Turkey!! It tells about how caspian tigers may have survived long after they were considered officialy extinct!!
In the article they talk about sightings in Sirnak in 2001!! However i´ve read reports of caspian tiger sightings in Sirnak and Hakkari after that! In 2002 and 2003 and in Hakkari in 2007 and 2010!
And appears that caspian tigers existed in southwestern Turkey until recently too!
Very informative and interesting article, Felipe. Much appreciated!
Thank you, there was another article about animals believed to be extinct for decades and later found alive that talked about caspian tigers in Turkey and sightings there in Hakkari and Sirnak in 2002, 2003 and 2010! much more recent than the ones mentioned in the article i posted, but i could not find it anymore!
What really surprised me was the fact that tigers were found in Antalya, southwestern Turkey up to the 80´s!!
10-26-2023, 06:36 AM( This post was last modified: 10-26-2023, 06:42 AM by peter )
(10-26-2023, 04:57 AM)lfelipe86 Wrote:
(10-25-2023, 04:19 AM)peter Wrote:
(10-24-2023, 04:16 PM)lfelipe86 Wrote: I have found this article about Caspian tigers extinction and sightings in Turkey!! It tells about how caspian tigers may have survived long after they were considered officialy extinct!!
In the article they talk about sightings in Sirnak in 2001!! However i´ve read reports of caspian tiger sightings in Sirnak and Hakkari after that! In 2002 and 2003 and in Hakkari in 2007 and 2010!
And appears that caspian tigers existed in southwestern Turkey until recently too!
Very informative and interesting article, Felipe. Much appreciated!
Thank you, there was another article about animals believed to be extinct for decades and later found alive that talked about caspian tigers in Turkey and sightings there in Hakkari and Sirnak in 2002, 2003 and 2010! much more recent than the ones mentioned in the article i posted, but i could not find it anymore!
What really surprised me was the fact that tigers were found in Antalya, southwestern Turkey up to the 80´s!!
A former friend is from eastern Turkey. He visits his family members and friends just about every year and told me wild boar hunters in particular often found prints of big cats about a decade ago. I don't think it's superfluous to add they, on account of their experience, were able to tell the difference between leopards and tigers. They were sure Turkey still had tigers in 2010. Most tigers lived in elevated districts and kept a low profile.
A new member of Wildfact said there many signs of tigers northeast of the Caspian were found in the recent past. Some years ago, I posted a report in the tiger extinction thread about sightings of Caspian tigers in one of the former Sowjet republics. Same for Afghanistan. The report you posted confirms the information I have.
It's a fact the info wasn't used. It also didn't result in articles in newspapers and documentaries. A result of a lack of reliable information from authorities and experts? Maybe. But it also is a fact tigers are not wanted in most countries. I'm not only referring to most former Sowjet republics in central parts of Asia. In central parts of China, persistent rumours about big cats resulted in a visit of a competent man with a degree. He was sure tigers were still present in some districts of central China in 2011. His findings were discussed in the tiger extinction thread, but not in China. The singer in the band I played in is from Java. She showed me recent reports about tigers in Java.
I'm not saying all reports about sighting are reliable. They aren't. Nearly all biologists are sure Panthera tigris virgata is gone. Same for P.t. amoyensis and P.t. sondaica. In most regions that still have a few wild tigers, they are threatened. Tigers are poached in Sumatra, Malaysia, Thailand, Burma and Nepal. Same, most unfortunately, for India and Russia. The tide seems to have turned once again. Maybe the real question is if tigers are wanted in regions that still have them.
Tigers hunt large animals. Large animals, apart from those living on alluvial flood plains, need a lot of room, meaning tigers also need a lot of room. In today's world, this is a problem. The Russian Far East is an exception in this respect. As a result of conservation, the number of Amur tigers increased. They're now seen in districts where they were hunted to extinction half a century ago. More tigers mean more confrontations, as humans are just about everywhere. In times of need, like in a severe winter or during a disease that affects wild herbivores, close proximity can result in problems. Most of the time, desperate tigers hunt domestic animals. These attacks result in fear and less support for conservation. In densely populated regions, chances are humans will be attacked sooner or later.
In the long run, tigers only stand a chance in remote regions with tough living conditions and few humans. Regions that qualify are few and far between and they, on top of that, really need to be empty (referring to humans). As the human population continues to grow, this development can have one outcome only. Meaning a decision has to be taken. The vital question is if we are prepared to offer room to our neighbours.
10-26-2023, 05:28 PM( This post was last modified: 10-26-2023, 05:34 PM by lfelipe86 )
(10-26-2023, 06:36 AM)peter Wrote:
(10-26-2023, 04:57 AM)lfelipe86 Wrote:
(10-25-2023, 04:19 AM)peter Wrote:
(10-24-2023, 04:16 PM)lfelipe86 Wrote: I have found this article about Caspian tigers extinction and sightings in Turkey!! It tells about how caspian tigers may have survived long after they were considered officialy extinct!!
In the article they talk about sightings in Sirnak in 2001!! However i´ve read reports of caspian tiger sightings in Sirnak and Hakkari after that! In 2002 and 2003 and in Hakkari in 2007 and 2010!
And appears that caspian tigers existed in southwestern Turkey until recently too!
Very informative and interesting article, Felipe. Much appreciated!
Thank you, there was another article about animals believed to be extinct for decades and later found alive that talked about caspian tigers in Turkey and sightings there in Hakkari and Sirnak in 2002, 2003 and 2010! much more recent than the ones mentioned in the article i posted, but i could not find it anymore!
What really surprised me was the fact that tigers were found in Antalya, southwestern Turkey up to the 80´s!!
A former friend is from eastern Turkey. He visits his family members and friends just about every year and told me wild boar hunters in particular often found prints of big cats about a decade ago. I don't think it's superfluous to add they, on account of their experience, were able to tell the difference between leopards and tigers. They were sure Turkey still had tigers in 2010. Most tigers lived in elevated districts and kept a low profile.
A new member of Wildfact said there many signs of tigers northeast of the Caspian were found in the recent past. Some years ago, I posted a report in the tiger extinction thread about sightings of Caspian tigers in one of the former Sowjet republics. Same for Afghanistan. The report you posted confirms the information I have.
It's a fact the info wasn't used. It also didn't result in articles in newspapers and documentaries. A result of a lack of reliable information from authorities and experts? Maybe. But it also is a fact tigers are not wanted in most countries. I'm not only referring to most former Sowjet republics in central parts of Asia. In central parts of China, persistent rumours about big cats resulted in a visit of a competent man with a degree. He was sure tigers were still present in some districts of central China in 2011. His findings were discussed in the tiger extinction thread, but not in China. The singer in the band I played in is from Java. She showed me recent reports about tigers in Java.
I'm not saying all reports about sighting are reliable. They aren't. Nearly all biologists are sure Panthera tigris virgata is gone. Same for P.t. amoyensis and P.t. sondaica. In most regions that still have a few wild tigers, they are threatened. Tigers are poached in Sumatra, Malaysia, Thailand, Burma and Nepal. Same, most unfortunately, for India and Russia. The tide seems to have turned once again. Maybe the real question is if tigers are wanted in regions that still have them.
Tigers hunt large animals. Large animals, apart from those living on alluvial flood plains, need a lot of room, meaning tigers also need a lot of room. In today's world, this is a problem. The Russian Far East is an exception in this respect. As a result of conservation, the number of Amur tigers increased. They're now seen in districts where they were hunted to extinction half a century ago. More tigers mean more confrontations, as humans are just about everywhere. In times of need, like in a severe winter or during a disease that affects wild herbivores, close proximity can result in problems. Most of the time, desperate tigers hunt domestic animals. These attacks result in fear and less support for conservation. In densely populated regions, chances are humans will be attacked sooner or later.
In the long run, tigers only stand a chance in remote regions with tough living conditions and few humans. Regions that qualify are few and far between and they, on top of that, really need to be empty (referring to humans). As the human population continues to grow, this development can have one outcome only. Meaning a decision has to be taken. The vital question is if we are prepared to offer room to our neighbours.
I have found an article by an iranian college professor called Dr Kaveh Ahmadi Aliabadi where he confirms the presence of caspian tigers in Iran and he talks about that conservation issue!!! According to him, caspian tigers still exist in pristime forested areas of Golestan, Mazandaran and Gilan!! Several witnesses have seen them, including forest rangers!! Especially the ones from Golestan National Park!!! However, everytime one is seen the authorities dismisses it as not true or a misidentification and does nothing about it! Pehaps if they confirm it hunters may go there and kill them, so they say they are extinct so their numbers can grow first!!
It is in persian but the translator does a great job!
The article is called: ببر مازندران “هنوز” منقرض نشده است! تلاش های ملی و بین المللی برای حفظ آخرین ببرهای آسیایی در جهان؛ نوشتاری از دکتر کاوه احمدی علی آبادی
Honestly, I didn't like Mr. Kaveh Ahmadi Aliabadi's arguments, he really has very incoherent points and poor reasoning. Below are two quotes taken from the article:
"Similarly, the Tasmanian tiger was thought to be extinct, but it has been seen several times and it is now known that some of them are probably still hiding in the deep forests of Tasmania."
This situation and its obviousness in being fake does not deserve any explanation.
"Projects for the protection, cub killing, revival and reintroduction of the Mazandaran tiger, the Siberian tiger and the Asiatic lion should also be followed in the direction of the Asiatic cheetah project, and especially with the help of foreign experts and experiences, and perhaps the facilities and technology in the world, not with secrecy, and leaving a species on the brink of extinction at the hands of nature polluted by man."
Complicated, right? Tylacine as a rediscovered species and Asian cheetah project as a model. Nothing more than, at most, a dozen cheetahs live free in Iran (30 years ago there were around 100). In 2016, the already catastrophic situation became known:
Its conservation program focused on a pair of cheetahs in captivity, doomed to failure due to a total lack of genetic diversity.
And the case of wildlife professionals arrested in Iran on grounds of espionage, their names and their sentences.
November 2019 sentence:
Niloufar Bayani and Morad Tahbaz - 10 years
Houman Jokar and Taher Ghadirian - 8 years old
Amir Hossein Khaleghian and Sepideh Kashani - 6 years old
Seyed-emami - Died while in pre-trial custody.
Iran is a major investor in conservation, with its notorious international partnerships - just being cynical.
As for tigers, I can even conceive of elaborate reasoning that encourages the possibility of their existence among lay people. It is part of the game of conservation and the different interests in promoting Lazarus species. But for me, logic and insights require much more than this simple story can be told.
Mr. Kaveh and the Iranian regime know that this issue is a form of international insertion, while Chita's spotlight goes out.
10-28-2023, 04:01 AM( This post was last modified: 10-28-2023, 05:40 PM by lfelipe86 )
(10-27-2023, 06:01 AM)Matias Wrote: Honestly, I didn't like Mr. Kaveh Ahmadi Aliabadi's arguments, he really has very incoherent points and poor reasoning. Below are two quotes taken from the article:
"Similarly, the Tasmanian tiger was thought to be extinct, but it has been seen several times and it is now known that some of them are probably still hiding in the deep forests of Tasmania."
This situation and its obviousness in being fake does not deserve any explanation.
"Projects for the protection, cub killing, revival and reintroduction of the Mazandaran tiger, the Siberian tiger and the Asiatic lion should also be followed in the direction of the Asiatic cheetah project, and especially with the help of foreign experts and experiences, and perhaps the facilities and technology in the world, not with secrecy, and leaving a species on the brink of extinction at the hands of nature polluted by man."
Complicated, right? Tylacine as a rediscovered species and Asian cheetah project as a model. Nothing more than, at most, a dozen cheetahs live free in Iran (30 years ago there were around 100). In 2016, the already catastrophic situation became known:
Its conservation program focused on a pair of cheetahs in captivity, doomed to failure due to a total lack of genetic diversity.
And the case of wildlife professionals arrested in Iran on grounds of espionage, their names and their sentences.
November 2019 sentence:
Niloufar Bayani and Morad Tahbaz - 10 years
Houman Jokar and Taher Ghadirian - 8 years old
Amir Hossein Khaleghian and Sepideh Kashani - 6 years old
Seyed-emami - Died while in pre-trial custody.
Iran is a major investor in conservation, with its notorious international partnerships - just being cynical.
As for tigers, I can even conceive of elaborate reasoning that encourages the possibility of their existence among lay people. It is part of the game of conservation and the different interests in promoting Lazarus species. But for me, logic and insights require much more than this simple story can be told.
Mr. Kaveh and the Iranian regime know that this issue is a form of international insertion, while Chita's spotlight goes out.
What calls my attention above everything is the consistency in reported sightings!! I´ve shared a documentary called: "on the trail of the hyrcan tiger" where a shepard tells he saw a tiger in golestan national park. Months ago i spoke to another guy who says he also witnessed a tiger kill a boar also at golestan and that he has friends who work in the park(rangers) that have seen tigers in the area too!! that is just something that can not be ignored!!!
we need to remember that asiatic lions in india have a population of around 600 now that came from a population of a few dozen!! and we can never know for sure how many are realy out there especially regarding a specie that is known to be great roamers! That is what the article i posted is all about!! the lazarus effect and others!!! Even though Dr Aliabadi may be wrong in his exemples his points are based around probable circunstaces regarding the sightings! we need to remember the zanzibar leopard for exemple! many people were probably searching for logic and insights regarding them just like you! And regarding the tiger, is good to mention, the same iranian department that a few years ago found 15cm footprints at parvar reserve!! too big to be those of a leopard!
(10-27-2023, 06:01 AM)Matias Wrote: Honestly, I didn't like Mr. Kaveh Ahmadi Aliabadi's arguments, he really has very incoherent points and poor reasoning. Below are two quotes taken from the article:
"Similarly, the Tasmanian tiger was thought to be extinct, but it has been seen several times and it is now known that some of them are probably still hiding in the deep forests of Tasmania."
This situation and its obviousness in being fake does not deserve any explanation.
"Projects for the protection, cub killing, revival and reintroduction of the Mazandaran tiger, the Siberian tiger and the Asiatic lion should also be followed in the direction of the Asiatic cheetah project, and especially with the help of foreign experts and experiences, and perhaps the facilities and technology in the world, not with secrecy, and leaving a species on the brink of extinction at the hands of nature polluted by man."
Complicated, right? Tylacine as a rediscovered species and Asian cheetah project as a model. Nothing more than, at most, a dozen cheetahs live free in Iran (30 years ago there were around 100). In 2016, the already catastrophic situation became known:
Its conservation program focused on a pair of cheetahs in captivity, doomed to failure due to a total lack of genetic diversity.
And the case of wildlife professionals arrested in Iran on grounds of espionage, their names and their sentences.
November 2019 sentence:
Niloufar Bayani and Morad Tahbaz - 10 years
Houman Jokar and Taher Ghadirian - 8 years old
Amir Hossein Khaleghian and Sepideh Kashani - 6 years old
Seyed-emami - Died while in pre-trial custody.
Iran is a major investor in conservation, with its notorious international partnerships - just being cynical.
As for tigers, I can even conceive of elaborate reasoning that encourages the possibility of their existence among lay people. It is part of the game of conservation and the different interests in promoting Lazarus species. But for me, logic and insights require much more than this simple story can be told.
Mr. Kaveh and the Iranian regime know that this issue is a form of international insertion, while Chita's spotlight goes out.
I was reading the article more carefully and with better translation and regarding the cheetahs, i believe Dr Aliabadi was refering to them as exemples regarding the acknowledgement of the species situation and how that should be the same for the caspian tigers, because Dr Aliabadi believes they are still out there and the fact that they are still considered extinct only makes it more difficult for the conservation!!
I´ve also found different websites with more recent information and much more optimistic information regarding the cheetah´s conservation, like this one about land purchase for the cheetahs!
10-30-2023, 04:39 AM( This post was last modified: 10-30-2023, 05:32 AM by Matias )
(10-28-2023, 04:01 AM)lfelipe86 Wrote: What calls my attention above everything is the consistency in reported sightings!! I´ve shared a documentary called: "on the trail of the hyrcan tiger" where a shepard tells he saw a tiger in golestan national park. Months ago i spoke to another guy who says he also witnessed a tiger kill a boar also at golestan and that he has friends who work in the park(rangers) that have seen tigers in the area too!! that is just something that can not be ignored!!!
we need to remember that asiatic lions in india have a population of around 600 now that came from a population of a few dozen!! and we can never know for sure how many are realy out there especially regarding a specie that is known to be great roamers! That is what the article i posted is all about!! the lazarus effect and others!!! Even though Dr Aliabadi may be wrong in his exemples his points are based around probable circunstaces regarding the sightings! we need to remember the zanzibar leopard for exemple! many people were probably searching for logic and insights regarding them just like you! And regarding the tiger, is good to mention, the same iranian department that a few years ago found 15cm footprints at parvar reserve!! too big to be those of a leopard!
My perspective is science, scientific articles and publications. Forest Galante filmed a leopard in Zanzibar on his program in 2018, and it seems to me that there was no subsequent confirmation, in the island's only national park, measuring less than 5,000 hectares. Years ago it is believed that villagers saw the clouded panther (neofelis nebulosa brachyura) on the island of Taiwan, after 36 years of disappearance. And so, we point out the possibilities. The point is that proof and evidence need confirmation. First, a good photo resulting from research by a qualified professional. Second, a source for genetic examinations (fur, feces...), to establish the origin; as it has been fully proven that the Gabon lion is a faithful representative of the region's lineage (Gabon/Republic of Congo). In other words, it is a lion from Gabon and not a lion in Gabon.
I understand your perspective and wrote because I thought it was worth showing an opinion contrary to this search for "evidence" that time shows, for the most part, to be unconfirmed.
The perspective is to never close the doors until all the windows are closed. But who opens the doors and who closes the windows? They are conservation scholars together with a series of professionals who, after decades of absence, dismiss the real and credible possibilities of its existence. Who's opening the windows? These are articles without any evidence to prove their existence.
Animals that never existed, like the globally known Sasquatch/Ieth, lead "thousands" of people and their organizations to keep the legend alive in people's minds. The same is also done for the "Lazarus" species.
Understand well, I don't take away your right to believe what you want to believe. I just don't give credit to news that has no proof.
If the news is fact. It will draw the attention of experts and credible publications will be published a few years after its discovery. Go to: Nature, Science Advances, MDPI, PHYS, PLOS, PNAS and see if you can find published material that confirms the presence of some missing species.
Be sure to publish what you find, but pay close attention to the source. It wouldn't be good to miss a great conservation opportunity, but don't give credit to those who don't deserve it. In order not to perpetuate narratives that justify the interest of parties that are not legitimate for conservation.
"The definition of extinction is also a philosophical challenge. For example, biologically an animal can be considered extinct, however, the animal is still seen in the activities and thoughts of the local community (the cultural and historical importance of those who lived with/heard stories about it) makes it persist a long time in the future. This is a major challenge in defining extinction because many animals still live in unscientific ways, and science cannot discuss these issues in the academic world."
(10-29-2023, 02:08 AM)lfelipe86 Wrote: I´ve also found different websites with more recent information and much more optimistic information regarding the cheetah´s conservation, like this one about land purchase for the cheetahs!
10-31-2023, 03:35 AM( This post was last modified: 10-31-2023, 03:41 AM by lfelipe86 )
(10-30-2023, 04:39 AM)Matias Wrote:
(10-28-2023, 04:01 AM)lfelipe86 Wrote: What calls my attention above everything is the consistency in reported sightings!! I´ve shared a documentary called: "on the trail of the hyrcan tiger" where a shepard tells he saw a tiger in golestan national park. Months ago i spoke to another guy who says he also witnessed a tiger kill a boar also at golestan and that he has friends who work in the park(rangers) that have seen tigers in the area too!! that is just something that can not be ignored!!!
we need to remember that asiatic lions in india have a population of around 600 now that came from a population of a few dozen!! and we can never know for sure how many are realy out there especially regarding a specie that is known to be great roamers! That is what the article i posted is all about!! the lazarus effect and others!!! Even though Dr Aliabadi may be wrong in his exemples his points are based around probable circunstaces regarding the sightings! we need to remember the zanzibar leopard for exemple! many people were probably searching for logic and insights regarding them just like you! And regarding the tiger, is good to mention, the same iranian department that a few years ago found 15cm footprints at parvar reserve!! too big to be those of a leopard!
My perspective is science, scientific articles and publications. Forest Galante filmed a leopard in Zanzibar on his program in 2018, and it seems to me that there was no subsequent confirmation, in the island's only national park, measuring less than 5,000 hectares. Years ago it is believed that villagers saw the clouded panther (neofelis nebulosa brachyura) on the island of Taiwan, after 36 years of disappearance. And so, we point out the possibilities. The point is that proof and evidence need confirmation. First, a good photo resulting from research by a qualified professional. Second, a source for genetic examinations (fur, feces...), to establish the origin; as it has been fully proven that the Gabon lion is a faithful representative of the region's lineage (Gabon/Republic of Congo). In other words, it is a lion from Gabon and not a lion in Gabon.
I understand your perspective and wrote because I thought it was worth showing an opinion contrary to this search for "evidence" that time shows, for the most part, to be unconfirmed.
The perspective is to never close the doors until all the windows are closed. But who opens the doors and who closes the windows? They are conservation scholars together with a series of professionals who, after decades of absence, dismiss the real and credible possibilities of its existence. Who's opening the windows? These are articles without any evidence to prove their existence.
Animals that never existed, like the globally known Sasquatch/Ieth, lead "thousands" of people and their organizations to keep the legend alive in people's minds. The same is also done for the "Lazarus" species.
Understand well, I don't take away your right to believe what you want to believe. I just don't give credit to news that has no proof.
If the news is fact. It will draw the attention of experts and credible publications will be published a few years after its discovery. Go to: Nature, Science Advances, MDPI, PHYS, PLOS, PNAS and see if you can find published material that confirms the presence of some missing species.
Be sure to publish what you find, but pay close attention to the source. It wouldn't be good to miss a great conservation opportunity, but don't give credit to those who don't deserve it. In order not to perpetuate narratives that justify the interest of parties that are not legitimate for conservation.
"The definition of extinction is also a philosophical challenge. For example, biologically an animal can be considered extinct, however, the animal is still seen in the activities and thoughts of the local community (the cultural and historical importance of those who lived with/heard stories about it) makes it persist a long time in the future. This is a major challenge in defining extinction because many animals still live in unscientific ways, and science cannot discuss these issues in the academic world."
I agree with everything that you wrote, however to get confirmation, effort to get those confirmations are needed!! At Zanzibar sightings were been recorded for years and nothing was done, they were always dismissed as not true! Just like caspian tigers, not only in Iran but other places like Afghanistan and Kazakhstan!! It took a foreigner(Galante) to go there and get it on camera!, If it is a viable population or not only more research can tell and again nothing has been done since than or just not enough! Many evidence of tigers have been found and they are dismissed by authorities just like the Zanzibar leopard case!!! For exemple: a few years ago, a tigress with cubs was reported near a village in Kalaleh, the authorities just dismissed it as not true because there has been no reports of tigers by officials in the area, which is again not true, many rangers have reported tigers in Golestan area over the years like i mentioned!! Scats that could have been collected have been reported by locals, pugmarks, etc... , even the iranian department found pugmarks at parvar that were been reported for years! Paul Joslin had found 17cm pugmarks in northern iran way befored those from de iranian department! those are very isolated areas! They get leopards in camera traps, they just need to take them to more isolated areas and follow the sightings!
Unlike Zanzibar, Central asia and the middle east are huge places with many isolated areas that could still hide tigers! If an island so small like Zanzibar can hide a leopard, imagine central asia and the middle east! Your points are valid! but to get those confirmations they need go get pass their lazarus effects and others that probably are holding them back!
(10-28-2023, 04:01 AM)lfelipe86 Wrote: What calls my attention above everything is the consistency in reported sightings!! I´ve shared a documentary called: "on the trail of the hyrcan tiger" where a shepard tells he saw a tiger in golestan national park. Months ago i spoke to another guy who says he also witnessed a tiger kill a boar also at golestan and that he has friends who work in the park(rangers) that have seen tigers in the area too!! that is just something that can not be ignored!!!
we need to remember that asiatic lions in india have a population of around 600 now that came from a population of a few dozen!! and we can never know for sure how many are realy out there especially regarding a specie that is known to be great roamers! That is what the article i posted is all about!! the lazarus effect and others!!! Even though Dr Aliabadi may be wrong in his exemples his points are based around probable circunstaces regarding the sightings! we need to remember the zanzibar leopard for exemple! many people were probably searching for logic and insights regarding them just like you! And regarding the tiger, is good to mention, the same iranian department that a few years ago found 15cm footprints at parvar reserve!! too big to be those of a leopard!
My perspective is science, scientific articles and publications. Forest Galante filmed a leopard in Zanzibar on his program in 2018, and it seems to me that there was no subsequent confirmation, in the island's only national park, measuring less than 5,000 hectares. Years ago it is believed that villagers saw the clouded panther (neofelis nebulosa brachyura) on the island of Taiwan, after 36 years of disappearance. And so, we point out the possibilities. The point is that proof and evidence need confirmation. First, a good photo resulting from research by a qualified professional. Second, a source for genetic examinations (fur, feces...), to establish the origin; as it has been fully proven that the Gabon lion is a faithful representative of the region's lineage (Gabon/Republic of Congo). In other words, it is a lion from Gabon and not a lion in Gabon.
I understand your perspective and wrote because I thought it was worth showing an opinion contrary to this search for "evidence" that time shows, for the most part, to be unconfirmed.
The perspective is to never close the doors until all the windows are closed. But who opens the doors and who closes the windows? They are conservation scholars together with a series of professionals who, after decades of absence, dismiss the real and credible possibilities of its existence. Who's opening the windows? These are articles without any evidence to prove their existence.
Animals that never existed, like the globally known Sasquatch/Ieth, lead "thousands" of people and their organizations to keep the legend alive in people's minds. The same is also done for the "Lazarus" species.
Understand well, I don't take away your right to believe what you want to believe. I just don't give credit to news that has no proof.
If the news is fact. It will draw the attention of experts and credible publications will be published a few years after its discovery. Go to: Nature, Science Advances, MDPI, PHYS, PLOS, PNAS and see if you can find published material that confirms the presence of some missing species.
Be sure to publish what you find, but pay close attention to the source. It wouldn't be good to miss a great conservation opportunity, but don't give credit to those who don't deserve it. In order not to perpetuate narratives that justify the interest of parties that are not legitimate for conservation.
"The definition of extinction is also a philosophical challenge. For example, biologically an animal can be considered extinct, however, the animal is still seen in the activities and thoughts of the local community (the cultural and historical importance of those who lived with/heard stories about it) makes it persist a long time in the future. This is a major challenge in defining extinction because many animals still live in unscientific ways, and science cannot discuss these issues in the academic world."
I agree with everything that you wrote, however to get confirmation, effort to get those confirmations are needed!! At Zanzibar sightings were been recorded for years and nothing was done, they were always dismissed as not true! Just like caspian tigers, not only in Iran but other places like Afghanistan and Kazakhstan!! It took a foreigner(Galante) to go there and get it on camera!, If it is a viable population or not only more research can tell and again nothing has been done since than or just not enough! Many evidence of tigers have been found and they are dismissed by authorities just like the Zanzibar leopard case!!! For exemple: a few years ago, a tigress with cubs was reported near a village in Kalaleh, the authorities just dismissed it as not true because there has been no reports of tigers by officials in the area, which is again not true, many rangers have reported tigers in Golestan area over the years like i mentioned!! Scats that could have been collected have been reported by locals, pugmarks, etc... , even the iranian department found pugmarks at parvar that were been reported for years! Paul Joslin had found 17cm pugmarks in northern iran way befored those from de iranian department! those are very isolated areas! They get leopards in camera traps, they just need to take them to more isolated areas and follow the sightings!
Unlike Zanzibar, Central asia and the middle east are huge places with many isolated areas that could still hide tigers! If an island so small like Zanzibar can hide a leopard, imagine central asia and the middle east! Your points are valid! but to get those confirmations they need go get pass their lazarus effects and others that probably are holding them back!
I really like your enthusiasm, keep in mind re: Forrest Galante that in the case of the Zanzibar leopard, without physical evidence such as a body, fur, feces, or a flesh that can be used to extract and analyze DNA, it’s challenging to definitively confirm the existence of the species. DNA analysis can provide conclusive proof of a species’ identity by comparing the genetic material with that of known specimens. While video footage like that captured by Forrest Galante can be suggestive and exciting, it’s not considered definitive proof without accompanying physical evidence that can undergo DNA analysis. This is why the scientific community typically requires such evidence before declaring that an extinct species has been rediscovered.
A part of me does hold on to the hope that some remnants of Caspian tigers remain hidden in remote Central Asia, but without solid evidence, they will remain almost cryptic in nature.
The Caspian Tiger (Panthera tigris virgata)
