WildFact
›
Information Section
›
Terrestrial Wild Animals
›
Wild Cats
›
Tiger
The Caspian Tiger (Panthera tigris virgata)
The Caspian Tiger (Panthera tigris virgata)
|
The Caspian Tiger (Panthera tigris virgata)
|
The iranian documentary about the caspian tiger and possible sightings!!!
https://www.shiatv.net/video/1915796611
Does anyone knows the origin of the caspian tiger specimen at The Natural History Museum in London?
I´ve found this article with several sightings of caspian tigers through the years!!! The ones that called my atention are the ones from Armenia(ararat plains) and Azerbaijan!! The armenian sightings doesn´t have a date but is an article from 1992 and the ones from Azerbaijan are classified as accurate identification and precise locality, so no mistake! it were identified as tigers in the 70´s!! long after they were believed to be extinct in Azerbaijan!
http://www.catsg.org/fileadmin/fileshari...2___F1.pdf  (07-10-2023, 04:50 PM)lfelipe86 Wrote: I´ve found this article with several sightings of caspian tigers through the years!!! The ones that called my atention are the ones from Armenia(ararat plains) and Azerbaijan!! The armenian sightings doesn´t have a date but is an article from 1992 and the ones from Azerbaijan are classified as accurate identification and precise locality, so no mistake! it were identified as tigers in the 70´s!! long after they were believed to be extinct in Azerbaijan! All the records from Azerbaijan from 1950 on is most likely mistakes of confusion with leopard as I mentioned earlier due to language differences between turks and talish people. I collected some records of tigers from 19th and 20th century in Azerbaijan for a article I am working on (can share translated version maybe). However, there is not any confirmed sighting after 1932 (last known hunted specimen). Vereshagin also notices that between 1920-50 there are only 2 records in entire Caucasus, but after 50s there are more than 10 "claims" in every decade! indeed that mismatch explains the confusion with leopards. Indeed a few can be survived well into 50s or 60s as they were hunted in 70s in Turkiye. I wonder how the author cosniders them "accurate" as no skin or photo exsists from that period (after 50s) in Azerbaijan. In the Caucasus Azerbaijan was the main place of tigers so even though I don't know much about Armenia i believe the late records from there and claims from 2000s in Turkiye are all not trustfull and bogus unfortunately.
Here is the list of confirmed tiger sightings in Azerbaijan in 19th and 20th century. I used Google translate to convert into English, but seems quite understandable.
Order of what's written: year - where - how many - by whom - any other info - reference 1832 Lankaran 1 Menetries E. 15 versts from Lankaran Menetries E. 1832. 1837 Talish zone 1 Hohenacker R.F. A fur coat was donated to St. Petersburg Academy. Hohenacker, 1837. 1844 Goytepe 1 Qafqaz newspaper, joint hunting of Russian border guards and about 200 local people Konstantinov, 1846. 1845 Goytepe 1 Qafqaz newspaper Finding the bodies of a boar and a tiger side by side (they killed each other) Konstantinov, 1846. 1846 Goytepe 1 Qafqaz newspaper A woman who killed a tiger with an ax to protect her husband* Константинов, 1846. 1846 Talysh zone 1 Qafqaz newspaper Bear hunt of a tiger waking up from sleep Konstantinov, 1846. 1846 Vang (Vank) village, Karabakh 1 Qafqaz newspaper The tiger hunted by the villagers after hunting the cow Konstantinov, 1846. 1852 Goytepe 1 Qafqaz newspaper Meeting of a Russian border guard-doctor with a tiger on the road Bobylev, 1859. April 1866 Lankaran 2 Radde G. Locals offer 6 tiger pelts, including 2 fresh ones caught near "Mineral water" 12 versts west of town. Radde, 1899. ? Bilasuvar 1 Radde G. Tiger skull (donated to the Caucasus Museum) Radde, 1899. 1884 Lankaran 2 Radde G. Tiger seen in winter Radde, 1899. 1896 Talish zone 2 Dinnick N.Y. Russian Lieut. and depicts 2 tiger pelts caught by local hunters. Dinnik, N. Ya., 1914 1897 Goytepe 2 Satunin K.A. Tiger cub Satunin whose mother was hunted, 1906. February 1899 Goytepe 1 Satunin K.A. Huge male, 5 cubits (350-366 cm) long. Satunin, 1906 1899 Goytepe 1 Satunin K.A. A footprint in the snow the size of a "large bowl" Satunin, 1906 1899 Mughan desert 1 Satunin K.A. Footprint found Satunin, 1906 1932 Goytepe 2 Vereshagin N. K The last Turanian tigers (male and female) hunted in our country. Vereshakin, 1942. In recent years I collected various information about this ssp. on my blogpsot. Despite it is in Azeri with the google translation feature of browser I believe anyone can understand if they are interested - https://zulfuferecli.wordpress.com/2021/...h%c9%99ng/ (07-11-2023, 04:35 PM)zulfu1903 Wrote: Here is the list of confirmed tiger sightings in Azerbaijan in 19th and 20th century. I used Google translate to convert into English, but seems quite understandable. Thank you for the ifo and great webpage!! The Radden caspian tiger photo from Lankaran at the Tbilisi museum is amazing!! There are so few images of caspian tigers from the Caucasus online so this one is gold!! i´m an optimist, i believe 100% that caspian tigers are still alive somewhere out there like i´ve said on my early posts!! Especially after the Zanzibar leopard rediscovery in 2018!!! If such a small island like Zanzibar can hide leopards for sure such huge places like the middle east and central asia can hide tigers!! I´ve been talking to some people especially from Iran and they say that the iranian enviroment department have evidence of tigers in some remote areas!!! in 1974 zoologist Paul Joslin found 17 cm wide footprints in the Alburz mountains and during the mid 2000´s the iranian department found 20, 15cm pugmarks in the Parvar protected area! In the Golestan area there are countless sightings with positive identification as tigers by the witnesses like the ones from the documentary i shared here in the forum!! The problem is that there is no government support for a serious investigation and project regarding the subject!!! In Armenia, the region of the Aras valley in the south and southeast are extremely isolated, almost like southeast Turkey where i believe have a population of tigers!! Another promising area is the Romit region in Tajikistan!!! I´ve found this video where they talk about wildlife in the area!! They begin talking about the tiger at 6:28 in the video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0TvbJrwS8U0&t=439s I just don´t believe that all those sightings are just misidentifications of leopards!!!! After all many were identified as tigers!! striped cats!!!
Hi everyone, I have come across some tiger paintings by Hungarian artists Geza Vastagh in which the subjects seem to show the typical traits of the caspian subspecies. Specifically the markings of the tiger in "tiger in a landscape" are very similar to the ones of the berlin zoo specimen often seen in photos. Does anyone have any further information on these paintings?
 (09-15-2023, 10:44 PM)Caggis Wrote: Hi everyone, I have come across some tiger paintings by Hungarian artists Geza Vastagh in which the subjects seem to show the typical traits of the caspian subspecies. Specifically the markings of the tiger in "tiger in a landscape" are very similar to the ones of the berlin zoo specimen often seen in photos. Does anyone have any further information on these paintings? Hello @Caggis, welcome to WildFact, we hope you enjoy your time here, and look forward to your contributions! That said, I would invite you to look over our rules section from the frontpage, which I will link for you. I will also provide a link that should explain how to properly add images to your posts. Cheers! Forum Rules Adding Images to your posts  (09-15-2023, 10:44 PM)Caggis Wrote: Hi everyone, I have come across some tiger paintings by Hungarian artists Geza Vastagh in which the subjects seem to show the typical traits of the caspian subspecies. Specifically the markings of the tiger in "tiger in a landscape" are very similar to the ones of the berlin zoo specimen often seen in photos. Does anyone have any further information on these paintings? Very nice paintings indeed. Based on the photographs I saw and the descriptions I read, the tiger could be close to what a wild Caspian tiger might have looked like. Adult males not seldom had a reddfish-brown shaggy coat, quite wide brown-black stripes, longish belly hairs, a kind of mane and a shortish skull with a clear 'stop'. Individual variation in this respect, however, was pronounced. I've plenty of photographs showing tigers with long, black and quite narrow stripes. In this respect, Caspian tigers compared to wild Amur tigers today. Before they were hunted to extinction, Caspian tigers were seen in very different habitats. The Caspian region has rugged, and quite elevated mountaineous regions, alpine forests and deep canyons with reed beds and river forests, but the northeastern part is quite flat and has extended grassy plains. Artists often depicted Caspian tigers in these plains. That's still without the tigers shot in the region between the Caspian and the Altai Mountains and Mongolia. Sizewise, adult male Caspian tigers might have compared to Indochinese male tigers, but sexual dimorphism seemed to have been more pronounced. Same for individual variation. The heaviest wild tigress I know of was 135 kg, but those who saw them in zoos and facilities agree most were smaller. Skulls measurements, although few, seem to confirm their opinion. The largest males were shot in Mazanderan (northern Iran) and, in particular, the southwestern part of the Caspian region. If anything, exceptional males were very long. Here's a few pictures to finish the post. The first two drawings are from Arthur Wardle:  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author Mongolia or western China. Artist unknown:  *This image is copyright of its original author This drawing was posted by 'Kaspi Tiger' on a German forum quite some years ago. He had a lot of good information about wild and captive Caspian tigers:  *This image is copyright of its original author According to Heptner and Sludskij ('Die Saugetiere der Sowjet-Union') and Mazak ('Der Tiger'), Caspian tigers were often seen, and shot, in the Altai Mountains in the recent past (about two centuries ago). Photograph A. Kudrin:  *This image is copyright of its original author
 (09-16-2023, 03:17 PM)peter Wrote: According to Heptner and Sludskij ('Die Saugetiere der Sowjet-Union') and Mazak ('Der Tiger'), Caspian tigers were often seen, and shot, in the Altai Mountains in the recent past (about two centuries ago). Photograph A. Kudrin: Define irony, you live in a particular area but instead of using the name for you, they use it for your brother of an entire different area (Amur). So, in theory, "altaica" should be better for the Caspian tiger, while the Amur one should be "amurensis" or something like that. (09-19-2023, 06:18 AM)GuateGojira Wrote:(09-16-2023, 03:17 PM)peter Wrote: According to Heptner and Sludskij ('Die Saugetiere der Sowjet-Union') and Mazak ('Der Tiger'), Caspian tigers were often seen, and shot, in the Altai Mountains in the recent past (about two centuries ago). Photograph A. Kudrin: In order to prevent confusion: Guate (referrting to the previous post) was referring to the scientific names of the Caspian and the Amur tiger. The Caspian tiger was known as Panthera tigris virgata, whereas the Amur tiger is known as Panthera tigris altaica. Do 'virgata' and 'altai' correspond with the region both subspecies inhabit (Amur tigers)/ inhabited (Caspian tigers)? Not really. Seen from this perspective, both 'virgata' and 'altaica' are somewhat confusing. You can find more information about this problem in V. Mazak's 'Der Tiger' (1983, pp. 12-20). Recent research, by the way, says the now extinct Caspian tiger and the Amur tiger are very closely related, if not one and the same. Here's a few maps to illustrate the problem Guate referred to. 1 - This map (tiger distribution at the end of the 19th century) is from Mazak (1983). The Caspian tiger (Panthera tigris virgata) inhabited the region between the Black Sea (in the extreme west) up to, and possibly including, the Altai Mountains (extreme east), whereas the Amur tiger (Panthera tigris altaica) inhabited the region between the Sea of Japan (extreme east) and Lake Baikal (extreme west), most probably also reaching the Altai Mountains. Meaning Caspian tigers reached western China, Mongolia and the Altai Mountains (in the extreme east), whereas Amur tigers reached the Altai Mountains and possibly Mongolia. Also meaning individuals of both subspecies most probably met at one stage. Finally meaning a lot of things are unclear. Same for Pocock's hypothesis ('Tigers', 1929) regarding subspecies. Those opposing his proposal to distinguish between 8 subspecies say it's based on a few samples of every 'subspecies' only. They have a valid point. On the other hand. Tigers roamed over much of Asia before humans entered the stage and created barriers that proved to be impenetrable. The 'cline proposal' (referring to size) is more or less correct, but it also is a fact (referring to Pocock's proposal) there are significant differences between all 8 tiger subspecies (referring to accurate descriptions and, in particular, skulls). Meaning tigers adapted to local conditions. This process apparently had an effect on the (size and shape of) the skull and the size of local populations. The average size of Caspian and, in particular, Amur tigers suggest prey density isn't the only factor affecting size. Historic records strongly suggest both Caspian and Amur tigers had a tendency to move north in the days they still could:  *This image is copyright of its original author 2 - This map is from Heptner and Sludskij ('Die Säugetiere der Sowjet-Union'). The black lines (at the bottom and at the right) represent the northern borders of the distribution of Caspian and Amur tigers in the former Sowjet-Union at the end of the 19th century. The black dots represent locations where tigers were seen (or shot) in the recent past. The reports used go back to the Middle Ages. The map shows tigers roamed widely over much of Asia north (and west) of the Himalayas and the Gobi Desert not so long ago:  *This image is copyright of its original author 3 - In this (more recent) map, historic records have been grouped into the subspecies distinguished by Pocock ('Tigers', 1929). There's a clear distinction between Caspian and Amur tigers, but the first two maps (see above) strongly suggests Caspian and Amur tigers both reached the Altai Mountains not so long ago:  *This image is copyright of its original author
(09-16-2023, 03:17 PM)peter Wrote:Thank you for this information! What i also found interesting in the paintings i posted is the setting which seems to show a central asian riparian forest. Do you think this kind of environment with tall reeds is typical of places such as the Ili delta?(09-15-2023, 10:44 PM)Caggis Wrote: Hi everyone, I have come across some tiger paintings by Hungarian artists Geza Vastagh in which the subjects seem to show the typical traits of the caspian subspecies. Specifically the markings of the tiger in "tiger in a landscape" are very similar to the ones of the berlin zoo specimen often seen in photos. Does anyone have any further information on these paintings? The paintings you posted are by french painter Jean Leon Gerome. He is known to have traveled to the middle east so the "tiger on the watch" painting could show a scene somewhere in Anatolia perhaps. He was an orientalist and tended to romanticise his subjects so perhaps absolute accuracy was not his priority. (10-18-2023, 06:31 PM)Caggis Wrote:(09-16-2023, 03:17 PM)peter Wrote:Thank you for this information! What i also found interesting in the paintings i posted is the setting which seems to show a central asian riparian forest. Do you think this kind of environment with tall reeds is typical of places such as the Ili delta?(09-15-2023, 10:44 PM)Caggis Wrote: Hi everyone, I have come across some tiger paintings by Hungarian artists Geza Vastagh in which the subjects seem to show the typical traits of the caspian subspecies. Specifically the markings of the tiger in "tiger in a landscape" are very similar to the ones of the berlin zoo specimen often seen in photos. Does anyone have any further information on these paintings? My youngest brother was a great painter. When he started, he was fascinated by big cats. He saw a photograph in a book about Sunda tigers I have and made a painting of a tiger walking in a djati forest. It's an exact copy and then it's something very different. It has a feel that isn't in the photograph. Photographs are interesting, but paintings even more so. The reason is painters often add something others are not aware of. When we visited the Rijksmuseum to see Rembrandt, he often saw something others did not. I never read anything about it. It was uncanny, but not uncommon in painters. He often joined me when I visited a facility or zoo. I noticed he had a thing going with lions. Every time we entered a compound, the males immediately rose to their feet, approached, started roaring and rolled over. He was part of the brotherhood, but didn't know. Most captive lions, tigers, jaguars and leopards don't like humans one bit. Lions tell you right away, but the others are more secretive. All big cats, however, do exceptions. For some reason, they like some people. All trainers I talked to really knew about the animals they worked with, but being knowledgeable wasn't decisive. Of those I interviewed, two had a special relationship with the cats they worked with. In the cage, when talking to me, they never watched their back. The others, on the other hand, were careful. They made it because of their senses and experience. All of them were aware of the preference some of big cats have. It's a very individual treat. I never saw a captive Caspian tiger, but those who did told me most were a bit smaller than an average Indian tiger. In the days they were still present in most regions, cubs were much sought after. Not seldom, a tigress robbed of her cubs followed the robbers into the village. Happened in India and Sumatra as well, but Caspian tigresses in particular were known for their dedication and aggression. I saw a few documentaries about eastern Turkey, southeast Georgia, northwestern Iran and the plains of the region just east of the Black Sea and Lake Aral. What I saw was very suited for tigers, but even more so for the animals they hunted and wild boars in particular. At the level of averages Caspian tigers were smaller than their relatives in the Russian Far East and India, but in some districts large individuals, as the photographs posted in this thread show, were not uncommon. For some reason, Caspian tigresses were quite small. Skull measurements and reliable records suggest sexual dimorphism was very outspoken in Caspian tigers. In this respect, they compared to Amur tigers. Caspian tigers ranged between Georgia and the Altai Mountains, but they most probably reached Mongolia as well. I found this painting ('Mongolian Tiger') on a German Forum. It was posted by a man called 'Kaspi Tiger'. He had a lot of information about captive and wild Caspian tigers:  *This image is copyright of its original author Skin of a tiger shot near Lob-Nor (Mongolia):  *This image is copyright of its original author
Here is some artwork i found in various books i have.
"Last chance on earth" - Roger Caras, illustrated by Charles Fracé :  *This image is copyright of its original author *This image is copyright of its original author The winter coat on the right seems identical to that of the siberian tiger. The tigers on the left on the other hand seem to have a coat that is very similar to that of the indian tiger. Initially i thought there had been a mistake on the part of either the publisher or artist but upon closer inspection the prey animal could be a european bison rather than a gaur or buffalo based on the patch of hair on its back. This would be consistent with a scene from the caucasus. "Fierce and fragile" - Robert Dallet  *This image is copyright of its original author *This image is copyright of its original author This seems to me like a depiction of a large male tiger clearly showing narrow stripes of a brownish color and the typical tail pattern. Postcard fron the red book of animals of the USSR - Vadim Gorbatov:  *This image is copyright of its original author *This image is copyright of its original author Again, very narrow and closely set stripes. (10-19-2023, 05:01 AM)peter Wrote:(10-18-2023, 06:31 PM)Caggis Wrote:(09-16-2023, 03:17 PM)peter Wrote:Thank you for this information! What i also found interesting in the paintings i posted is the setting which seems to show a central asian riparian forest. Do you think this kind of environment with tall reeds is typical of places such as the Ili delta?(09-15-2023, 10:44 PM)Caggis Wrote: Hi everyone, I have come across some tiger paintings by Hungarian artists Geza Vastagh in which the subjects seem to show the typical traits of the caspian subspecies. Specifically the markings of the tiger in "tiger in a landscape" are very similar to the ones of the berlin zoo specimen often seen in photos. Does anyone have any further information on these paintings? For sure Caspian tigers existed in Mongolia, most likely at the eastern part of the Altai mountains and the Northern region around the russian border where the caspian population met the siberian ones south at Lake Baikal!! However Lop Nor is not in Mongolia! Lor Nor is a lake in China!!! They were also seen around Barnaul in Russia!! |
| Users browsing this thread: |
| 3 Guest(s) |