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Size comparisons
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 (07-13-2019, 12:23 AM)epaiva Wrote:(07-12-2019, 11:31 PM)Shadow Wrote:In Venezuela only one person has been studying Jaguars since 2009, his name is Wlodek Jedrzejewski he has been doing a great research and the very good thing happening in Venezuela is that their numbers are increasing, he told me that he has seen very large Jaguars but the bad thing about him is that he does not want to share his pictures, it is incredible because he went to my house to measure my 4 puma skulls from Los Llanos and a skull of a small female jaguar from Estado Amazonas. He is not capturing weighting and measuring Jaguars because it is too expensive and you know our big economic problems here in Venezuela today, he is receiving economic help from a owner of a big ranch in Los Llanos and from Rafael Hoogesteijn, they are the only persons helping him with his research of Jaguars and wild cats in Venezuela.(07-12-2019, 09:45 PM)epaiva Wrote: I contacted Rafael Hoogesteijn today, he told me that the larger Jaguars are the ones from El Pantanal and a small number of Jaguars from Los Llanos are as big as the larger ones in El Pantanal. Females in El Pantanal are bigger and heavier than the ones found in los llanos he told me that the heaviest captured by them is the one captured on october 12th 2008 he weighted 148 kgs. They captured other big males one weighted 130 kgs As long as he's out there researching them and bringing attention to their fight, that's all you can ask for. Quick question... I'm assuming he's a foreigner, are they treated as horribly in Venezuela as they are in Brazil? Paulo has literally had his food poisoned, guns pulled on him and people threatening to stab him. It's crazy the amount of disrespect that has been thrown his way.  (07-13-2019, 12:23 AM)epaiva Wrote:Haha :) Well I don´t think, that he takes photos just for himself, so hopefully one day he finishes whatever project he has there and people can see. I guess, that if he has some study which he is currently doing, it is understandable that he don´t share anything before ready. But it would have been polite to show to you at least from his laptop some since you allowed him to come to your house. But maybe he is a bit... eccentric? :)(07-12-2019, 11:31 PM)Shadow Wrote:In Venezuela only one person has been studying Jaguars since 2009, his name is Wlodek Jedrzejewski he has been doing a great research and the very good thing happening in Venezuela is that their numbers are increasing, he told me that he has seen very large Jaguars but the bad thing about him is that he does not want to share his pictures, it is incredible because he went to my house to measure my 4 puma skulls from Los Llanos and a skull of a small female jaguar from Estado Amazonas. He is not capturing weighting and measuring Jaguars because it is too expensive and you know our big economic problems here in Venezuela today, he is receiving economic help from a owner of a big ranch in Los Llanos and from Rafael Hoogesteijn, they are the only persons helping him with his research of Jaguars and wild cats in Venezuela.(07-12-2019, 09:45 PM)epaiva Wrote: I contacted Rafael Hoogesteijn today, he told me that the larger Jaguars are the ones from El Pantanal and a small number of Jaguars from Los Llanos are as big as the larger ones in El Pantanal. Females in El Pantanal are bigger and heavier than the ones found in los llanos he told me that the heaviest captured by them is the one captured on october 12th 2008 he weighted 148 kgs. They captured other big males one weighted 130 kgs Hopefully things in Venezuela would turn to better sometime soon, that is sad situation. What comes to field weighings, it would be interesting to know a bit more. I mean how many people there usually need to be and what kind of operation it is. I have this image, that lions and tigers are hard work, even when animals are around 200 kg. Then again what comes to bears, those big ones 600-700 kg (and real big ones probably even more) are measured in extremely rare cases. And I´m not surprised, when looking at for instance Kodiak islands... first you should tranquilize such "monster", then find a way how to get it to some scale... for instance if on mountain slope, would that be even possible in any way with current equipment and how many people you would need... I guess, that what comes to biggest bears, we just have to accept, that a lot of estimations and not possible to get as accurate information as it is possible about smaller animals.  (07-13-2019, 12:37 AM)Pckts Wrote:Yes he is a foreigner he is from Poland foreigners are treated very well even today like always in Venezuela, he even found a wife here and has two sons.(07-13-2019, 12:23 AM)epaiva Wrote:(07-12-2019, 11:31 PM)Shadow Wrote:In Venezuela only one person has been studying Jaguars since 2009, his name is Wlodek Jedrzejewski he has been doing a great research and the very good thing happening in Venezuela is that their numbers are increasing, he told me that he has seen very large Jaguars but the bad thing about him is that he does not want to share his pictures, it is incredible because he went to my house to measure my 4 puma skulls from Los Llanos and a skull of a small female jaguar from Estado Amazonas. He is not capturing weighting and measuring Jaguars because it is too expensive and you know our big economic problems here in Venezuela today, he is receiving economic help from a owner of a big ranch in Los Llanos and from Rafael Hoogesteijn, they are the only persons helping him with his research of Jaguars and wild cats in Venezuela.(07-12-2019, 09:45 PM)epaiva Wrote: I contacted Rafael Hoogesteijn today, he told me that the larger Jaguars are the ones from El Pantanal and a small number of Jaguars from Los Llanos are as big as the larger ones in El Pantanal. Females in El Pantanal are bigger and heavier than the ones found in los llanos he told me that the heaviest captured by them is the one captured on october 12th 2008 he weighted 148 kgs. They captured other big males one weighted 130 kgs (07-13-2019, 12:40 AM)Shadow Wrote:You are right I know that all those pictures are for his research, I am sure he will publish a book in the future. I only wanted two pictures to post them here only two. We will have to wait until he publishes something.(07-13-2019, 12:23 AM)epaiva Wrote:Haha :) Well I don´t think, that he takes photos just for himself, so hopefully one day he finishes whatever project he has there and people can see. I guess, that if he has some study which he is currently doing, it is understandable that he don´t share anything before ready. But it would have been polite to show to you at least from his laptop some since you allowed him to come to your house. But maybe he is a bit... eccentric? :)(07-12-2019, 11:31 PM)Shadow Wrote:In Venezuela only one person has been studying Jaguars since 2009, his name is Wlodek Jedrzejewski he has been doing a great research and the very good thing happening in Venezuela is that their numbers are increasing, he told me that he has seen very large Jaguars but the bad thing about him is that he does not want to share his pictures, it is incredible because he went to my house to measure my 4 puma skulls from Los Llanos and a skull of a small female jaguar from Estado Amazonas. He is not capturing weighting and measuring Jaguars because it is too expensive and you know our big economic problems here in Venezuela today, he is receiving economic help from a owner of a big ranch in Los Llanos and from Rafael Hoogesteijn, they are the only persons helping him with his research of Jaguars and wild cats in Venezuela.(07-12-2019, 09:45 PM)epaiva Wrote: I contacted Rafael Hoogesteijn today, he told me that the larger Jaguars are the ones from El Pantanal and a small number of Jaguars from Los Llanos are as big as the larger ones in El Pantanal. Females in El Pantanal are bigger and heavier than the ones found in los llanos he told me that the heaviest captured by them is the one captured on october 12th 2008 he weighted 148 kgs. They captured other big males one weighted 130 kgs (07-13-2019, 12:43 AM)epaiva Wrote:(07-13-2019, 12:37 AM)Pckts Wrote:Yes he is a foreigner and they are treated very well even today like always in Venezuela, he even found a wife here and has two sons.(07-13-2019, 12:23 AM)epaiva Wrote:(07-12-2019, 11:31 PM)Shadow Wrote:In Venezuela only one person has been studying Jaguars since 2009, his name is Wlodek Jedrzejewski he has been doing a great research and the very good thing happening in Venezuela is that their numbers are increasing, he told me that he has seen very large Jaguars but the bad thing about him is that he does not want to share his pictures, it is incredible because he went to my house to measure my 4 puma skulls from Los Llanos and a skull of a small female jaguar from Estado Amazonas. He is not capturing weighting and measuring Jaguars because it is too expensive and you know our big economic problems here in Venezuela today, he is receiving economic help from a owner of a big ranch in Los Llanos and from Rafael Hoogesteijn, they are the only persons helping him with his research of Jaguars and wild cats in Venezuela.(07-12-2019, 09:45 PM)epaiva Wrote: I contacted Rafael Hoogesteijn today, he told me that the larger Jaguars are the ones from El Pantanal and a small number of Jaguars from Los Llanos are as big as the larger ones in El Pantanal. Females in El Pantanal are bigger and heavier than the ones found in los llanos he told me that the heaviest captured by them is the one captured on october 12th 2008 he weighted 148 kgs. They captured other big males one weighted 130 kgs I'm glad to hear it, good for him. (07-13-2019, 12:57 AM)epaiva Wrote:(07-13-2019, 12:40 AM)Shadow Wrote:You are right I know that all those pictures are for his research, I am sure he will publish a book in the future. I only wanted two pictures to post them here only two. We will have to wait until he publishes something.(07-13-2019, 12:23 AM)epaiva Wrote:Haha :) Well I don´t think, that he takes photos just for himself, so hopefully one day he finishes whatever project he has there and people can see. I guess, that if he has some study which he is currently doing, it is understandable that he don´t share anything before ready. But it would have been polite to show to you at least from his laptop some since you allowed him to come to your house. But maybe he is a bit... eccentric? :)(07-12-2019, 11:31 PM)Shadow Wrote:In Venezuela only one person has been studying Jaguars since 2009, his name is Wlodek Jedrzejewski he has been doing a great research and the very good thing happening in Venezuela is that their numbers are increasing, he told me that he has seen very large Jaguars but the bad thing about him is that he does not want to share his pictures, it is incredible because he went to my house to measure my 4 puma skulls from Los Llanos and a skull of a small female jaguar from Estado Amazonas. He is not capturing weighting and measuring Jaguars because it is too expensive and you know our big economic problems here in Venezuela today, he is receiving economic help from a owner of a big ranch in Los Llanos and from Rafael Hoogesteijn, they are the only persons helping him with his research of Jaguars and wild cats in Venezuela.(07-12-2019, 09:45 PM)epaiva Wrote: I contacted Rafael Hoogesteijn today, he told me that the larger Jaguars are the ones from El Pantanal and a small number of Jaguars from Los Llanos are as big as the larger ones in El Pantanal. Females in El Pantanal are bigger and heavier than the ones found in los llanos he told me that the heaviest captured by them is the one captured on october 12th 2008 he weighted 148 kgs. They captured other big males one weighted 130 kgs You have to invite him to visit again to double check some measurement etc. and offer him a drink with slowly effecting laxative, that should be suitable revenge. You just need to find some good excuse to get rid of him soon after he finishes the drink... but interesting to know, that something is coming up. (07-13-2019, 12:37 AM)Pckts Wrote:@Pckts(07-13-2019, 12:23 AM)epaiva Wrote:(07-12-2019, 11:31 PM)Shadow Wrote:In Venezuela only one person has been studying Jaguars since 2009, his name is Wlodek Jedrzejewski he has been doing a great research and the very good thing happening in Venezuela is that their numbers are increasing, he told me that he has seen very large Jaguars but the bad thing about him is that he does not want to share his pictures, it is incredible because he went to my house to measure my 4 puma skulls from Los Llanos and a skull of a small female jaguar from Estado Amazonas. He is not capturing weighting and measuring Jaguars because it is too expensive and you know our big economic problems here in Venezuela today, he is receiving economic help from a owner of a big ranch in Los Llanos and from Rafael Hoogesteijn, they are the only persons helping him with his research of Jaguars and wild cats in Venezuela.(07-12-2019, 09:45 PM)epaiva Wrote: I contacted Rafael Hoogesteijn today, he told me that the larger Jaguars are the ones from El Pantanal and a small number of Jaguars from Los Llanos are as big as the larger ones in El Pantanal. Females in El Pantanal are bigger and heavier than the ones found in los llanos he told me that the heaviest captured by them is the one captured on october 12th 2008 he weighted 148 kgs. They captured other big males one weighted 130 kgs Where is Paulo from? Hope he is ok right now in Brazil (07-13-2019, 01:47 AM)epaiva Wrote:(07-13-2019, 12:37 AM)Pckts Wrote:@Pckts(07-13-2019, 12:23 AM)epaiva Wrote:(07-12-2019, 11:31 PM)Shadow Wrote:In Venezuela only one person has been studying Jaguars since 2009, his name is Wlodek Jedrzejewski he has been doing a great research and the very good thing happening in Venezuela is that their numbers are increasing, he told me that he has seen very large Jaguars but the bad thing about him is that he does not want to share his pictures, it is incredible because he went to my house to measure my 4 puma skulls from Los Llanos and a skull of a small female jaguar from Estado Amazonas. He is not capturing weighting and measuring Jaguars because it is too expensive and you know our big economic problems here in Venezuela today, he is receiving economic help from a owner of a big ranch in Los Llanos and from Rafael Hoogesteijn, they are the only persons helping him with his research of Jaguars and wild cats in Venezuela.(07-12-2019, 09:45 PM)epaiva Wrote: I contacted Rafael Hoogesteijn today, he told me that the larger Jaguars are the ones from El Pantanal and a small number of Jaguars from Los Llanos are as big as the larger ones in El Pantanal. Females in El Pantanal are bigger and heavier than the ones found in los llanos he told me that the heaviest captured by them is the one captured on october 12th 2008 he weighted 148 kgs. They captured other big males one weighted 130 kgs Paulo is a man of world haha He was born in Mozambique but he is Portuguese. When he went the Panatanl he had already been touring all over Latin America, Ranthambore and Corbett and Africa as well. He's done studies for BBC, NGO and Panthera as well. But in Brazil he would call out the fisherman for their treatment of the animals or their misinformation and they almost killed him for it. He also is a zoologist and a scientific man, not a religious man and that's why he was poisoned. I'll be happy to get into more detail if you like in my dm, if you follow him on FB he finally posted something about the ID of the cats he photos but this comes at a serious risk, I really hope he continues and I honestly encouraged him to do so because he's literally on the front lines in the Panatanl and one of the few left who's fighting the good fight. You'd get a kick out of talking to him, I definitely recommend you get in touch.
Just got word back from Fernando.
Adriano weighed 130kg, not 158kg The largest weighed by Panthera was 148kg like Rafeal said as well. Normal males in the Pantanal weigh 100kgs+ and normal females weigh 80kgs plus. That makes sense about Adriano since Paulo said quite a few males he's seen are larger than he. Its safe to say anything over 150kg for a Pantanal Jaguar should be in the same category as a 280kg Lion or Tiger or 100kg Leopard. Thanks to Fernando Tortato, Rafeal and Epaiva. (07-13-2019, 07:05 PM)Pckts Wrote: Just got word back from Fernando. That was interesting. So Cat Specialist Group had then right weight range on their site. And panthera.org has had maybe typo or misunderstanding happened with their site, because they have that 158 kg as upper limit. Still around 150 kg weight is huge for a jaguar. And when your guide said, that he has seen many males larger than Adrian, it is quite safe to think, that those jaguars most probably are around 140-150 kg. Smaller differences would be quite impossible to notice easily by just watching animals.  (07-13-2019, 07:05 PM)Pckts Wrote: Just got word back from Fernando. So this is true:  *This image is copyright of its original author The 148 kg male most likely weighed somewhere in between 133kg and 138kg. And according to the same person, everything above 130 kg should be considered exceptional. I didn't share this becouse I knew everyone would be on top of me but since the maximum weight is indeed the 148 kg (or 133-138 kg depending how you look at it), this is worth sharing: Quote:There are also some claimed weights of around 140-150kg reported by hunters but the reliability of these is uncertain and where some indication of stomach content is given they appear to have come from fully gorged specimens. Tony Almeida who recorded very detailed measurements of a large number of adult male jaguars hunted in the Pantanal states in his 1976 book - “no jaguar anywhere will ever weigh more than 130 kilos with empty belly, or 150 kilos gorged”. I think he may have been a tad bit too conservative here but I think barring some exceptions this is generally true. My opinion is that in a given (homogeneous) big cat population, the biggest males would be about 30% heavier than the adult male mean weight for that population with very rare exceptions. Thus at around 135kg empty stomach, the above mentioned male can certainly be considered an exceptional specimen IMO. Again, this is his opinion regarding their maximum weight, I do not wish to start another discussion again since I myself am not that well informed when it comes to jaguars.
Considering I already posted a video of a empty Jaguar caught by snare weighing 142kgs I'd say that's wrong already.
Panthera only caught cat's on their property which is about 5 miles or so away from where you find all the Jags in the main meeting of 3 rivers, they also only caught on dry land never capturing any in the river areas which is definitely a good thing but I'd almost guarantee that once they become dominate in the 3 rivers area they must put on more weight since the prey densisty is so great. I think trying to make some sort of rule that Jaguars or any Big cats only get as big as the minimal ones captured is pointless. Seeing a Male is rare, capturing one is even rarer let alone capturing ones which would be the biggest ever recorded. For instance, you have 10 or so Jaguars in the Pantanal that are habituated to man but you have over 65 individuals at least just in that meeting of the water park and off of those small numbers of habituated cats you already have a few larger than Adriano. Last is that Jaguars in the Pantanal never look empty like Lions and Tigers, you'll see Marley when I post photos and he was the thinnest Jaguar I saw and he still was fully loaded. Hunting is too easy there and it's also why it's probably the easiest place on earth to witness hunts. I had never seen a lion or tiger or leopard on the hunt or actually mating, in the Pantanal I saw all of the above. Marlon Dutoit who has been there for 1 day has already seen hunts from 3 different cats. You'll never get bored there, action is around every corner. (07-13-2019, 10:11 PM)Luipaard Wrote:(07-13-2019, 07:05 PM)Pckts Wrote: Just got word back from Fernando. Good information, which can be backed up in some reasonable way is always interesting. Especially when able to provide sources which can be checked if there is will or need for that. Sometimes information is controversial, sometimes not. Also here have been obvious misunderstandings sometimes. Those can´t be avoided in these forums. Anyway this conversation has already provided some new information, like it, that Adrian was 130 kg and not 158 kg. And in that I want to point out, that it was @Pckts who cleared that even though he was before sure, that 158 kg was valid weight. That is something what I respect, focus should for all be after all in good information, not winning every debate. But if this debate wouldn´t have happened, we might still have here wrong information what comes to him, Adrian. Anyway that is clear, that Pantanal produce huge jaguars and Llanos is another population with potential to do the same. Most recent information points out, that today Pantanal is fantastic place for jaguars and Llanos has more challenging environment, as far as I have understood. My personal conclusion is, that today Pantanal seems to be the place to see biggest of the big. At least more often compared to Llanos. But if new and good information comes up, there shouldn´t be any reason why not to share it :) And what I wrote is my personal opinion (based on latest postings and sources), some can agree, some disagree.
Of course @Shadow
The only thing important is the truth and I think in regards to Adriano it was a missunderstanding. I assumed that the weight was correct and Paulo confirmed that he was absolutely weighed which is where I skipped a step and assumed both to be accurate. But overall I think the information provided has pretty much proven what I was saying. Hopefully now we can move past that and start to appreciate these amazing Jaguars for what they are and that is a very unique species. Just like Lions in Ngorongoro Crater and Okavango Delta or Tigers in Kaziranga and Terai arc or Leopards in certain parts of Africa and Asia to name a few. (07-13-2019, 10:43 PM)Pckts Wrote: But overall I think the information provided has pretty much proven what I was saying. Hopefully now we can move past that and start to appreciate these amazing Jaguars for what they are and that is a very unique species. Just like Lions in Ngorongoro Crater and Okavango Delta or Tigers in Kaziranga and Terai arc or Leopards in certain parts of Africa and Asia to name a few. I agree. Which is why I find Central African leopards so fascinating; they're the equivalent of Pantanal jaguars in my opinion. |
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