There is a world somewhere between reality and fiction. Although ignored by many, it is very real and so are those living in it. This forum is about the natural world. Here, wild animals will be heard and respected. The forum offers a glimpse into an unknown world as well as a room with a view on the present and the future. Anyone able to speak on behalf of those living in the emerald forest and the deep blue sea is invited to join.
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Request here to join invite only forum

India sanjay Offline
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#31

@SuSpicious
You are allowed to participate, hope you have read the rules and will follow it during discussions
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United Kingdom Sully Offline
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#32

I was granted permission but it seems I cannot contribute anymore. I'm just wondering what I've done to be removed and if I can possibly be re-accepted.
"When the tiger stalks the jungle like the lowering clouds of a thunderstorm, the leopard moves as silently as mist drifting on a dawn wind." -Indian proverb
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Australia GreenGrolar Offline
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#33

May i join in too. I enjoy mature discussions and debates too.
The lime green bear
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India sanjay Offline
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#34

Hello @Sully and @GreenGrolar
You have to wait, currently we are changing layout and content for Invite only section. Once it will be done, we will start taking members.
Currently no member is granted the access. Please wait
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United Kingdom Sully Offline
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#35

Are there any updates on when you will start accepting again?
"When the tiger stalks the jungle like the lowering clouds of a thunderstorm, the leopard moves as silently as mist drifting on a dawn wind." -Indian proverb
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India sanjay Offline
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#36

Mature section is still close, however if you are looking to make original post (completely written by you and not copied from internet) you can do it on our top section, that section is like article section, so no discussion there , see the tigerluver article there and you will have idea.

Mature section is still pending but sooner I will do something of it
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Netherlands peter Offline
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#37
( This post was last modified: 07-14-2019, 08:03 AM by peter )

(07-13-2019, 11:37 PM)Sully Wrote: Are there any updates on when you will start accepting again?

The new section is more or less finished, but I'm not done in the preparation department. The first post will be on the size of Amur tigers. I intend to compare them to Indian and Nepal tigers. In order to get there, I have to go over everything I have and do a number of tables. As those interested need to pay to see them, they have to be good. Might take a while.

As to an invited-only debate in the trainer tread.

Some weeks ago, there was a bit of animosity in the tiger thread. As Cooper was involved again, he was banned. After the ban, I got pm's of posters visting other forums. They said (parts of) my posts were posted and discussed at another forum. I visited the forum and read a few posts. I also read a post of Kathlee, a member of Wildfact. Kathlee, a former trainer, apparently posted at other forums as well. In one of her posts, used in the forum I visited, she said she was a bit disappointed about Wildfact. One reason was her mentors had been discredited. Another was her credibility had been questioned. 

After reading her post, I read the trainers thread over here. I didn't see anything out of the ordinary. What I saw was quite the opposite; after she had posted, she got a warm welcome from different posters. One of them was yours truly. In order to encourage her, I posted a list with questions.

So why did she say her mentors had been discredited at Wildfact? And why did she say her credibility had been questioned? And why did she not contact us and decided to complain about Wildfact elsewhere?

When I was trying to find answers to these questions, new questions popped up. Why, I wondered, would an experienced trainer decide to discuss big cats at a place loaded with people who, as a result of a lack of knowledge, decided for preference? A place where reality is regarded as fiction? And why would she, on top of that, want to discuss fights with them? Of all people? 

I decided for music a long time ago. Would I be willing to talk music with someone who just burned and looted the last music school in Amsterdam? 

All, and I mean all, directors, handlers and trainers I interviewed didn't want to talk about fights. Those able to overcome their distrust, to a degree, only opened up after they decided they could trust me. Meaning I wouldn't use the info I got. In all cases, it took many hours, if not days, to get them to talk and all of those who lost animals felt bad about it. They had known the animals killed in fights intimately, knew these animals relied on them and felt they had let them down.    

I know some trainers have a very different attitude, but they are the exception and often have clear motives. Talking money here. Beatty, for example, knew how to sell his act and the books he wrote. Kathlee, as far as I know, didn't write a book.  

What I'm saying is I'm not sure about her. Not at all. I never saw a direct answer to the questions I asked and she didn't seem interested in a conversation about things often discussed by trainers. There's something peculiar about her, meaning I have a few questions. But I decided against it.

Was she another creation of those banned? Was it another attempt to get access to Wildfact and discredit the one often used by tiger posters in debates? Another attempt to create a bit of animosity? And, perhaps, eliminate a competitor? Far-fetched? Our experience says no.  

Lions, tigers and fights often attract people who easily beat a decent toothache. I know, because I saw many of them in facilities and in organisations in which big cats featured in some way or another. They like the thrill, Sully. Raw, authentic power. And danger. Not too close for comfort, but danger it is. At the expense of others, of course. You would be surprised about the number of people interested in lethal fights. 

When you debate big cats and fights at a forum, you think you debate people guided by knowledge, common sense, logic and real interest. People who know about these animals. Not so. Experience says you often debate people with more aliases than you can think of. They're clever and can lead you into alleys you never heard of. They don't care about animals, but something else. This is why we decided against lions, tigers and fights.

Why not focus on the world around you? We're interested in the attempts to reintroduce wolves, birds of prey and lynxes. We want to know a bit more about big cat sightings and those who know about them. The UK has a lot of natural history museums that have big cat skulls. You could post a list with natural history museums. Not the well-known museums, but the smaller ones. I might want to come over and measure these skulls. You could also try to locate those who hunted big cats almost a century ago in British India. And those who stayed to start a safari business or something like that. My guess is there is a lot of information in the UK. Attics, that is. What you find, would contribute to more knowledge about a period all but unknown to most of us. See what you can do.

If you want to contribute to the trainer thread, find trainers willing to talk about their experiences. Remember we don't want general statements, but good information, details and specifics. We want to know why they got to conclusions and we want to know all about the animals involved in conflicts. When you find a trainer, prepare questions. Take your time. Record the conversation if possible. When they disagree, make notes. When you got something of interest, post it. My advice is to interview as many trainers as possible. Based on my experience, I'd say most of them would be willing to talk, provided they can trust you. Ask them for permission to use their answers over here. Good luck.
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Guatemala GuateGojira Offline
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#38
( This post was last modified: 07-14-2019, 09:06 AM by GuateGojira )

(07-14-2019, 07:31 AM)peter Wrote: The new section is more or less finished, but I'm not done in the preparation department. The first post will be on the size of Amur tigers. I intend to compare them to Indian and Nepal tigers. In order to get there, I have to go over everything I have and do a number of tables. As those interested need to pay to see them, they have to be good. Might take a while.

@peter, I am a little lost, there will be a "pay per view" section? 

I have saw some topics that says that we need an "invitation", may you accept me in those topics?
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United States RakeshMondal Offline
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#39
( This post was last modified: 07-15-2019, 06:30 AM by sanjay Edit Reason: corrected the formating )

@peter 

Hey peter. I saw your post about Katherine in the other thread. This is a misunderstanding from Katherine along with you, mainly the person who PMed you. Btw, i really want to know who told you this because i cant think of anybody who would follow Katherine so closely?

This isn't a smear campaign against wildfact. First off, Katherine wasn't talking about you, not sure if you read the full thing on the forum she posted (quora), but she mentioned a name in particular and quoted him. 
Why would she say wildfact? Look.
Quoting her:
"But, since you brought it up, heres a few of your comments on 'Wildanimal Warfare' or whatever the site is called, they are all the same"
She mentioned wildfact because she got it all confused, since 'they are all the same', she thinks wildfact is just another site with fanboys. She actually meant wildanimalwarfare because that is where somebody questioned her credibility and whos posts she was quoting.
She was not particularly attacking wildfact or being disappointed like what you said. It was actually another forum where somebody questioned her credibility she got it mixed up. I hope you understand.

She did talk a bit about fights. The animals weren't really hers but her mentors cats. She saw some free for all fights and some dead animals, stating even having a video of it. She also made it clear that she favors the lion because she thinks they are very aggressive, although she did say tigers are very vengeful and have "controlled aggression".
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Netherlands peter Offline
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#40

(07-14-2019, 09:03 AM)GuateGojira Wrote:
(07-14-2019, 07:31 AM)peter Wrote: The new section is more or less finished, but I'm not done in the preparation department. The first post will be on the size of Amur tigers. I intend to compare them to Indian and Nepal tigers. In order to get there, I have to go over everything I have and do a number of tables. As those interested need to pay to see them, they have to be good. Might take a while.

@peter, I am a little lost, there will be a "pay per view" section? 

I have saw some topics that says that we need an "invitation", may you accept me in those topics?

Contact Sanjay for more info. Of course you'll be invited.
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Netherlands peter Offline
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#41
( This post was last modified: 07-16-2019, 09:31 AM by peter )

(07-15-2019, 03:58 AM)RakeshMondal Wrote: @peter 

Hey peter. I saw your post about Katherine in the other thread. This is a misunderstanding from Katherine along with you, mainly the person who PMed you. Btw, i really want to know who told you this because i cant think of anybody who would follow Katherine so closely?

This isn't a smear campaign against wildfact. First off, Katherine wasn't talking about you, not sure if you read the full thing on the forum she posted (quora), but she mentioned a name in particular and quoted him. 
Why would she say wildfact? Look.
Quoting her:
"But, since you brought it up, heres a few of your comments on 'Wildanimal Warfare' or whatever the site is called, they are all the same"
She mentioned wildfact because she got it all confused, since 'they are all the same', she thinks wildfact is just another site with fanboys. She actually meant wildanimalwarfare because that is where somebody questioned her credibility and whos posts she was quoting.
She was not particularly attacking wildfact or being disappointed like what you said. It was actually another forum where somebody questioned her credibility she got it mixed up. I hope you understand.

She did talk a bit about fights. The animals weren't really hers but her mentors cats. She saw some free for all fights and some dead animals, stating even having a video of it. She also made it clear that she favors the lion because she thinks they are very aggressive, although she did say tigers are very vengeful and have "controlled aggression".

MONDAL

Thanks for the response. Regarding the points you made.

PM - It wasn't Cooper. Wildfact has about 900 members. My guess is quite many visit different sites. 

QUORA - I didn't visit Quora. I only read the post I referred to in my previous post. In that post, Kathlee talked about Wildfact. I was surprised about her accusation, as she got a nice welcome over here. Furthermore, I didn't see posts in which her credibility was challenged. Although a bit disappointed, I decided against a follow-up in the trainer thread. The reason is I only read one post. Assuming there was more to it, I bought a fishing-rod. 

FANBOYS - Your response cleared a few things, but not everything. Kathlee was treated with respect and got a lot of questions. For some reason, she lost interest and decided for a discussion with people she later described as fanboys. When she understood she had made a mistake, frustration took over. The result was deposited in front of our door. According to you, the accusation was a result of a misunderstanding. In my book, it was a result of a lack of reading (referring to the sites she selected) and quite a few slops. Slops that ultimately resulted in bad publicity for Wildfact, one of the few sites where discussions about lions, tigers and fights are not encouraged. I'll consider it collateral damage for now, but a correction would be appreciated anyhow.   

BIG CAT TRAINERS - What I wrote about trainers and big cats used in circuses is based on interviews. Most of these took many hours, at times even days. What I remember most is big cats are thinking animals. This is why they get bored quickly. As bored cats can get tricky, trainers often change routines. All trainers I talked to were very informed, clever, stable and precise. I never saw anything even close to mistakes. They can't afford to be sloppy, as it could have consequences. I liked Kathlee's first posts, but was surprised at what followed (see above). Doesn't add up.

FIGHTS - If trainers have mixed act with male lions and male tigers, they have to be wary. If, say, 5 male lions and 5 male tigers get into an all-out, chances are the tigers will suffer. The reason is lions fight in groups, whereas tigers fight on their own. This means every tiger has to face more than one lion at some stage. In a one-on-one, the outcome is unclear. All trainers who had seen serious fights told me the outcome depends on the individual. Size is a factor, but so is character. They didn't see specific species-related abilities. In their opinion, the outcome of a fight between a male lion and a male tiger or a fight between a big cat and a bear of similar size and age is close to unpredictable. I take their word for it. 

I also interviewed the director of a facility where big cats were trained. He was related to the Hagenbeck family, had worked with big cats all his life and saw more than all trainers combined. In his experience, male lions often initiate fights. Tigers, however, were a bit more able, whereas brown bears are more unpredictable. In general terms, he more or less confirmed the opinions of the trainers I interviewed. 

Trainers nowadays often have their own cats. They told me tigers, although they bond to a degree, stay on their own. Male lions, like their wild relatives, tend to form alliances. In spite of the internal struggle for power, they quickly learn to operate as a team. Lions fight animals they consider a threat whenever possible. A trainer with a mixed act, for this reason, has to be well-informed at all times. 

INTERVIEWS - I'm not the only poster who interviewed trainers. Big Bonns, a poster at AVA, talked to a trainer who worked with lions, tigers and brown bears. In his experience, brown bears, often a bit heavier than the cats, easily overpowered and outwrestled an average-sized lion or tiger. A surprise attack, however, would result in a dead bear. Tigers in particular had to be watched closely. I heard similar stories in facilities. Some of these were confirmed by vets.

Today, trainers often buy their cats when they're young. In the recent past, trainers often bought adults. Those who had no cats (transients) often replaced trainers unable to perform as a result of an injury.  

There used to be a fundamental difference between those who prepared big cats and bears not used to humans ('breakers'), those who teached them to perform ('trainers') and those who used them in acts ('performers'). The first two saw a lot more than performers. Same for trainers who replaced injured collegues.

During a training session or a show, performers are assisted by those who prepared or trained the animals or experienced transients. When problems erupt, they are the ones who restore peace. Tony Hughes had quite a reputation as an assistent. One of the Chipperfields said he owed his life to him. When I interviewed him, he assisted a woman performing with lions. She wasn't interested in an interview, but Tony was. His department was lions, but he had worked with other big cats and bears as well. Tony had seen many serious fights. In his experience, the outcome of a fight between similar-sized big cats was unpredictable. Parts of the interview were posted in the trainer thread.
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United States RakeshMondal Offline
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#42
( This post was last modified: 07-18-2019, 06:54 AM by sanjay Edit Reason: corrected the formating )

@peter


That is true, the people on here did nothing wrong and were clearly respectful not sure why she all of a sudden and think its a fanboy site. Yea lack of reading, maybe she just does not care. She's seen the edge of extinction thread, she knows that this site is about conservation which she herself says we should focus on.


The discussion on fights with her and other people has been going on for over a year, the accusations happened before she even got on this site.

I found the post from her. https://www.quora.com/Who-would-win-a-ti...t/97977782

Yea i know. Not sure if you know this, but she hasn't worked with the animals in over a decade. She was a trainer for 8 years starting in the late 90s. She did talk about how to train the animals, that there can be no mess ups. She says many things similar to you about training the animals.
Give her a break is all I'm saying.

Maybe she will come back on and talk about this because wildfact is clearly the only site with enthusiasts that has consistent good info and cares about the animals.

I also think that is truth. The outcome of fights are unpredictable, anything can happen and there is no way to tell. No offense to any trainer respect and all, but trainers who strongly favor an animal have very vague opinions like they dont really know for sure. For example. Does lions being harder to train/more aggressive up front fighting for dominance makes it more formidable than the tiger? Doubt. Especially knowing how they approach problems differently and their life styles. But you said it - difference between a performer and a breaker/trainer, wont really know such close details about the animals.
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India Rishi Offline
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#43
( This post was last modified: 07-18-2019, 03:57 PM by Rishi )

@RakeshMondal Thanks for the clarification!
Whatever her personal opinions are, whatever her reasons, she's entitled to them & doesn't owe explanations. It's not that big of a deal & we trying to stay away from it.

So there's no need to post on this matter anymore. Like
"Everything not saved will be lost."

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