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Primates and Predator Interactions

United States Pckts Offline
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#31
( This post was last modified: 08-21-2016, 02:39 AM by Pckts )

(08-21-2016, 01:19 AM)Polar Wrote: Both of you are correct in your assumptions. Some lions have managed to successfully adapt to the Congo rainforests (aren't jungles and rainforests the same?).

Like Pckts said, lions can certainly adapt to rainforested environments, yet not in huge numbers.




Jungle vs Rain forest

Though jungle and rainforest might appear to be similar, there are differences between the two. A rainforest area is often surrounded by a jungle, with the primary difference being that a rainforest has a very thick canopy of tall trees, which make it very difficult for light to penetrate to the ground level making it difficult for plants to flourish. A jungle floor on the other hand will usually have a thick undergrowth of plants and vegetation.
Jungles are sometimes artificially created. If  part of a rainforest is cleared, the remaining trees will let in more light towards the forest floor, thus encouraging growth of vegetation, and thereby making a jungle out of a former rainforest. Another difference is in a  cultural sense. Forests in the Indian sub-continent have always been known as jungles, whereas the rainforests have really been identified with the Amazonian basin in Brazil.
The word jungle is taken from the Hindi language, and as such its association is really with the rich and varied flora and fauna of India and its surrounding countries. Rainforests on the other hand straddle the equatorial belt and can be found in South America, the Congo basin of Africa and South East Asia.

Another difference lies in the importance of tropical rainforests to the ecological health of the earth, which is immense. In comparison, jungles have a relatively minor impact. And also unlike a jungle a tropical rain forest has distinct layers. There is an upper canopy consisting of trees that are between 60 and 130 feet high. This is where most of the animals live. Then there is the lower canopy consisting of trees 60 feet high. Hardly any light reaches here and the level of humidity is very high. Lastly, there is the ground level which has very little vegetation and one can easily walk around. About 80% of the world’s insect species live over here.
Thus we see that even though jungle and rainforest are terms often used interchangeably, there are quite a few differences between the two.
Summary:
1.A rainforest has a very thick canopy of tall trees, making it very difficult for light to penetrate to the ground level which makes it difficult for plants to flourish. A jungle floor on the other hand will usually have a thick undergrowth of plants and vegetation.
2.If  part of a rainforest is cleared, the remaining trees will let in more light towards the forest floor, thus encouraging growth of vegetation, and thereby making a jungle out of a former rainforest.
3.Forests in the Indian sub-continent have always been known as jungles, whereas the rainforests have really been identified with the Amazonian basin in Brazil.
4.Another difference lies in the importance of tropical rainforests to the ecological health of the earth, which is immense. In comparison, jungles have a relatively minor impact.

Read more: Difference Between Jungle and Rainforest | Difference Between http://www.differencebetween.net/science/nature/difference-between-jungle-and-rainforest/#ixzz4HuHI41Yq




There are many different types of Forests,
Rain forest, Deciduous, Coniferous and Taiga

The Congo is mostly Rain forest and the Basin spans across 6 countries. "Cameroon, Central African Republic, Democratic Republic of the Congo, Republic of the Congo, Equatorial Guinea and Gabon."

A male lion was recently spotted in Gabon for the first time in 20 years, thought to have gotten there from the Republic of Congo.

"
A lion has been spotted in Gabon for the first time in nearly 20 years, raising hopes the animals long feared extinct in the country could be returning, conservationists said on Thursday.

Lions used to roam Central Africa in their hundreds in the middle of the last century. But the population has fallen sharply due to poaching and loss of habitat."


"Hidden cameras planted as part of a chimpanzee study in southeastern Gabon's Bateke Plateau have captured on tape a single male lion three times since January, said Dr. Philipp Henschel, Lion Program Survey Coordinator for campaign group Panthera.

"I couldn't believe it. As soon as I could, I went there to set up more cameras," he told Reuters by phone from Libreville, adding that a new study was being launched in the hope of finding more of the big cats.

Lions are known to live a few hundred kilometers (miles) away in Democratic Republic of Congo and Henschel said the animal could have swum across the Congo river, one of the world's largest, and traveled over to Gabon's savannah."

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-gabon-...I720150312

The lion sub species is the The Northeast Congo Lion (Panthera Leo Azandica)
Transcript of Northeast Congo Lion
History
The Northeast Congo Lion has been around since 120,000 years ago, which was when scientists estimated that the lion subspecies had diverged from a common ancestor. They now live in the Congo, but it is unlikely that they had originated there.
Northeast Congo Lion
(Panthera Leo Azandica)
Coloring
As with other subspecies of lion, these lions are typically one solid color; a light brown, or a form of goldish yellow. The coloring gets lighter as it descends from their back to their feet. Male's manes are a darker shade of gold or brown, and their mane is noticeable thicker and longer than the rest of the fur on their body.

"Basic Facts About Congo Lions." Defenders of Wildlife. N.p., 20 Mar. 2012. Web. 28 Nov. 2015.

Bradford, Alina. "Lions: Facts & Information." LiveScience. TechMedia Network, 02 Oct. 2014. Web. 28 Nov. 2015.




The whole point of the original debate was if lions could live in the forest of the Congo, my stance remains unchanged. I see no reason why they can't since they already have for thousands of years, do they prefer it over an open Savannah, probably not. But that certainly doesn't mean they haven't thrived there, which they have. Probably using the forest as a stopping point in search of prey or new territory. The male they spotted wasn't suppose to be seen, they were viewing chimps in the forest, yet the male was seen numerous times, never in the open Savannah btw, only in the forest of Gabon.

I don't like to speak in absolutes when discussing big cats, most people would say tigers only hunt under the cover of trees or lions only hunt in open plains but we know that isn't true. Their habitat usually has multiple biotypes and sometimes that will bring them into unusual situations, I've seen tigers hunt completely out in the open and lions hunt in dense brush or forests, it's just the way of things. I certainly don't think a tiger is only equipped for forest life while a lion is only equipped for open plains, they both are equally equipped to survive in either landscape but do they prefer it is the real question.
Of course they prefer the places they are most comfortable but that doesn't mean that they are locked there.



Lions in the Congo

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*This image is copyright of its original author


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*This image is copyright of its original author


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*This image is copyright of its original author

Tree-climbing lion, Ishasha sector of the Queen Elizabeth National Park, Uganda.

(Photo Copyright © Alexander Krivenyshev, WorldTimeZone.com)

More on the Tree-Climbing LIons in Uganda

*This image is copyright of its original author




Here's a pretty cool story


The Real Lion King: Photographing a Regal Male Lion in Uganda


*This image is copyright of its original author

I recently spent a few days in Kidepo Valley National Park, a remote reserve in the North of Uganda that borders South Sudan and Kenya.


*This image is copyright of its original author

I hadn’t been in the Valley long when I met the resident male lion, a handsome chap known as “Spartacus”. It was late in the afternoon and the light was beautiful, but he was in long grass and I couldn’t get a clear shot. Over to my right was a beautiful kopje (a small hill) and I thought it would be an incredible shot if he sat on top of it. Well, he must have heard my thoughts because the next thing I knew, he was up and heading in that direction.

*This image is copyright of its original author

I willed him to keep going and I was pinching myself as he started to climb. He sat himself down exactly where I had hoped and then looked at me with his regal gaze. I couldn’t believe my luck! It is so rare that a wild animal actually does what you want it to! In front of me was a scene straight out of the Lion King…

*This image is copyright of its original author

After I had the front-lit shot, I moved round to silhouette him as the sun went down behind the distant mountains. It was a thrilling welcome to the Kidepo Valley!

*This image is copyright of its original author

I didn’t see Spartacus again after this encounter, but the “Lion King” photo above went viral online.


http://petapixel.com/2015/05/04/the-real...in-uganda/

I'll go ahead and make a congo lion thread as well, so we can post more of these images there.
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India brotherbear Offline
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#32

My mistake was in thinking that the "Congo" is the low-land jungle basin. Everything that I had ever read of the Congo talked about this particular habitat. I had no idea that the Congo includes the high plateau with grasslands and a drier forest. However, I was correct that lions have never conquered the true jungle environment. I still disagree with pckts that a tiger would be unable to do so, although introducing tigers would probably the a terrible idea for the natural wildlife of the Congo's jungle basin. 
Pckts asked: "If the lion had successfully conquered this habitat, the African Congo would have more lions than the African savanna."

How do you come up with this? I was referring to before the advance of heavy human populations and destruction. I mentioned that lions have been around since the late Pleistocene and, had they adapted to the Congo ( all of the Congo including the low-land jungle ) they would have been safer from human hunters. But, evidently, lions are not well suited for forest life. 
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India brotherbear Offline
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United States Pckts Offline
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#34
( This post was last modified: 08-21-2016, 07:37 PM by Pckts )

"I was referring to before the advance of heavy human populations and destruction. I mentioned that lions have been around since the late Pleistocene and, had they adapted to the Congo ( all of the Congo including the low-land jungle ) they would have been safer from human hunters. But, evidently, lions are not well suited for forest life. "

The savannah is at least 5 times the size of the basin which is heavily dense with trees and shrubs in some places compared to open plains. The savannah would obviously be a much larger lion territory.

All of the Congo has been under human attack for decades, deforestation occurs everywhere there and lions paid the price along with many other species. Lions live in the "forest," they are suited to it. The "forest" is a broad term, you can always switch it to "this type or that" but it doesn't change the fact that they adapted to forest life a long with many other styles of life.
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Russian Federation Diamir2 Offline
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#35


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stoja9 Offline
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#36

Another example of why I believe leopards are the ultimate predator. The balls it takes to go after a baboon who could just as easily kill you as you could kill it.
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United States Polar Offline
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#37

A thread on Carnivora about leopard predation on gorillas (especially the middle part of the page):

A Study on Leopard Predation on Gorillas
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United States Paleosuchus Offline
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#38
( This post was last modified: 01-03-2017, 06:52 AM by Paleosuchus )

Snakes of various various families are believed to be important factors in primate evolution, an ever present threat that elicits fear in many various families of primates, humans included. Here is a very neat overview article(http://m.pnas.org/content/108/52/E1470.long) reporting predatory events from snakes on primates, from being circumstantial to regukar and important predators. The constricting snakes(Boidae and pythonidae) are the most prolific, with Reticulated, Indian, and you African rock pythons eating a wide variety of species, humans included.

 Venomous snakes are circumstantial predators, and also preset a threat  via defensive bites. Below is a section from the above linked article reporting predation events:


"Snakes have killed 2 species of tree shrews (1719); at least 6 species of strepsirrhines, including 3 species of lemurs (2022), 2 species of galagos (2325), and a slow loris (Nycticebus coucang) (26); and 20 species of nonhuman haplorhines, including a spectral tarsier (Tarsius spectrum) (27), 8 species of New World monkeys (132835), 10 species of Old World monkeys (173645), and a siamang (Hylobates syndactylus) (46). Primates have been ambushed as they descended from trees [e.g., boa constrictor (Boa constrictor) on a white-faced capuchin (Cebus capucinus)] (28), as they passed over water on vegetation [e.g., green anaconda (Eunectes murinus) on a black-chested mustached tamarin (Saguinus mystax)] (29), and from trailside or overhead in trees (reticulated pythons on humans); juveniles have been snatched from their mothers [Madagascan ground boa (Acrantophis madagascariensis) on Verraux's sifaka (Propithecus verreauxi)] (21) or eaten with them (reticulated python on long-tailed macaque) (44) as well as taken by foraging into shelters (reticulated pythons on humans). Although venomous snakes sometimes kill primates in defense (43), mangrove snakes (Boiga dendrophila) (19), black-necked spitting cobras (Naja nigricollis) (25), mambas (Dendroaspis) (2445), white-tailed lanceheads (Bothrops leucurus) (34), and Gaboon adders (Bitis gabonica) (45) occasionally consume tree shrews, strepsirrhines, and haplorhines.

No living serpents specialize on primates, but several species of constrictors regularly prey on them. Reticulated pythons frequently eat long-tailed macaques (Fig. 3) and silvered leaf monkeys (Trachopithecus cristatus) (1742) as well as lorises (26) and tarsiers (27). Northern (P. sebae) and southern (P. natalensis) African pythons eat diverse vertebrates, including galagos (25), chacma baboons (Papio hamadryas) (37), red colobus monkeys (Procolobus badius) (40), mona monkeys (Cercopithecus mona) (41), and vervets (Chlorocebus pygerythrus) (42). Multiple records exist of predation by Madagascan ground and tree (Sanzinia madagascariensis) boas on lemurs (2022), and New World boa constrictors have attacked white-tailed titis (Callicebus discolor) (13), black-chested mustached tamarins (2931), white-eared marmosets (Callithrix aurita) (30), bearded sakis (Chiropotes satanus) (32), two species of capuchins (132833), and lion tamarins (Leontopithecus rosalia) (35)."




Indian pythons seem to have a prediliction for primates as well, namely langurs and mscaques. Here are two instances

*This image is copyright of its original author


"Remember the National Geographic videos where a python swallows a big animal. I for one never thought I would ever witness anything like that, but on a morning safari I got as close to it as possible. A Python was lying in a trench next to the safari path wrapped around the body of a full-grown langur. When you look at the picture it looks like it is holding a mouse, but it was a langur that it has killed may be 10-15 minutes ago. Python’s face could be seen between the legs of the langur and the length of the Python’s body was neatly wrapped around langur’s dead body. The signs of fight were visible on both the bodies as blood was still oozing out of them. In fact this is how we figured out that the killing has happened just a few minutes ago. Our forest guide told us that the Python would keep tightening the grip on the prey till it is very sure that it is dead and ready to be his meal. He will then swallow the whole animal and the digestion would take few weeks or may be a few months. Till it needs the food again, it would just lie around lazily in the jungle and does not move much till its stomach is full. Wonder if I would have also preferred a lifestyle where I can eat once a month and be done with my food requirements. It was an eerie sight to watch, especially with blood that was still coming out, but I am told this is an extremely rare sight to see in a jungle."

http://www.inditales.com/kanha-national-park-speak-to-me/



Indian python with female macaque

"In the afternoon of 11 January 2006, at the 109 Lodge of Khao Yai, 5 m from the main road, which passes through the Park’s headquarters, we observed an adult female Pig-tailed Macaque being looped and squeezed by an ca. 2.5 m Burmese Python. At 1200 h, the macaque was squeezed against a small tree (ca. 6 cm diameter) where it presumably died. At 1330 h, the snake began swallowing its prey, headf irst (Fig. 1), and it spent 30 min. swallowing this part. Then the python attempted to swallow macaque’s shoulders, the widest part of the body (Fig. 2), but was unsuccessful. It then regurgitated the macaque and rotated the prey and started swallowing from the shoulders. It took the python 50 min. to completely swallowing the macaque at 1450 h. The python remained resting in the area for about 20 min., before retreating into a clump of bamboo. During the aforementioned event, there were two macaques walking and sitting on the roof of 109 Lodge, 20 m from the python without giving alarm calls. "

*This image is copyright of its original author

http://www.researchgate.net/profile/V_Deepak/publication/260102887_Preliminary_Observations_on_the_Diet_of_the_Cane_Turtle_(Vijayachelys_silvatica)/links/0f31752f8f36f30e60000000.pdf
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United States Polar Offline
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#39

That explains why all humans have an innate fear (or favoritism, if the fear is alluring) of snakes.
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parvez Offline
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#40

Great article @Paleosuchus tfs.
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parvez Offline
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#41

That may be the reason why primates developed so much flexibility and quick reflexes.
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BorneanTiger Offline
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#42

(01-27-2019, 08:29 AM)nobody Wrote:



Crazy  baboon

Yes, what that baboon did to the gazelle lamb was disturbing indeed, but then the baboon itself was in danger of facing a similar fate with a bigger predator, that is the lion!



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