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If lion and tiger share same place what would be their surviving strategies ?
This thread may seems controversial and do not fit according to WildFact rules, but we suggest read below before reaching on any conclusion. Aim of this thread is not to compare Lion and Tiger on Vs fight base on hypothetical assumptions. What we are trying to do is to know your thoughts in this hypothetical scenario where if Lions and Tigers would have introduced to share same place in today's world with each other? So considering this, there would be 2 possible scenario 1. Tiger living in Africa's plain land along with Cheetah, Leopard, Spotted hyena, Wild dogs and their main competitor Pride of Lions. If we ignore scientific constraint in this assumption then what is your thought on this. Following Questions arises  *This image is copyright of its original author a) How do will tiger do against group of lions. Is their any chance of surviving solitary tiger just like leopard? We know that tiger can not run faster than lions, we know they can not climb up tree, we know that the tiger has no chance of surviving against gang of lions if caught alone. b) If some how they able to survive, what tactics they will adopt? c) What animal they hunt most out of the available prey in African plains ? Will they compete for same food as the lion ? d) How they will do against their other competitor like spotted hyena clan? 2. African Lion living in Indian dense forest along with Bengal Tiger or in cold climate of Russia far east with Amur tigers? Along with that they have to face sloth bear, dhole, pack of Indian wolfs in India. In Russia they have other competitor like big brown bear and Pack of wolfs.  *This image is copyright of its original author a) A pride of African lion is too much in any place for any land animals. Given that tiger is already there and well equipped with that environment they will probably dominant lions at beginning, but with time when lion start adopting the place, they will mostly dominate the region if they manage to live in pride or in gang. b) What will be the lions tactics in Indian forest along with tiger, leopard, and sloth bear to compete for the same prey and same area ? c) What will be their most targeted prey in India ? Note: This is not Vs debate, and it is for wild Lion and Tiger only. This produce a good opportunity to test put your knowledge of lion and tiger beyond fighting. Basically you need to explain your thoughts by giving proper reasons.  (07-30-2017, 02:58 PM)sanjay Wrote: 1. Tiger living in Africa's plain land along with Cheetah, Leopard, Spotted hyena, Wild dogs and their main competitor Pride of Lions. If we ignore scientific constraint in this assumption then what is your thought on this. Following Questions arises (Notwithstanding individual to individual behavioural variations.) 1. Although i've read that tigers, originated in snowy areas won't survive the open savanna unless drastic adaptations take place... a & b. A tiger would behave EXACTLY like a lone lion does in similar conditions...(I'm not indulging into the cases of limited aggression & avoidance, as i think there isn't much to discuss on that topic) Dominant male tiger against lionesses & young-adults would behave like this lion does: Against similar-sized interspecific opponents (i personally find lion & tiger 1-on-1 bouts to be exactly same styled, except tigers don't do that running around): Coalition of male lions against sub-adult tiger would have similar outcome: Male coalition of lions against larger dominant male tiger: Male tiger against whole lion pride would behave like lone challenger or enemy dominant male lion does: c. This is where tigers will be thoroughly outcompeted in Ngorongoro-like fully open plains. Unless they gang-up, like John Varty's tigers are said to do, they could have a hard time.They are larger than leopards. d. Buffalos & hyenas are going to be the only other threat. I expect the relationship to be, again, similar to what happens with lone lions. . . . 2. I'm not going into unnecessary speculations on this while we're about to find out in a few years. (Have gather ome more info on lion-tiger coexistance & will post it shortly on the Asian lion reintroduction page).
Good try Rishi, I want more scientific information and explanation in your next reply
This question consists of comparing two ways of live , the first one in pride, the second one solitary adopted by two big feline predators, both approximately same size. No need to name them, I think.
First case: tigers surviving in Africa. The solitary male tiger would have to avoid meeting the male lions patrolling together their territory and the tigress the lionesses hunting together. The tigers being naturally a more elusive cat than the lions it would be possible by supposing that they could inhabit the most wooded zones/areas of the savannahs. But I frankly doubt that the tigers content themselves with not being the " first one on top " predator. Somewhat like we can see in Siberia when they have to coexist with the brown bears, each time it would be possible for one male to catch by ambush a lone lion it would try its luck. In my opinion. But of course too, the male lions keeping their territory would not support any rival. Thus they would tend to kill any tiger they could meet. So what can the tigers do ? Running not faster than the lions, climbing not up the trees... Life for them should be very difficult. Then, as we can see in the videos about " Tigers in Africa ", the preys (buffalos, antilopes, wildebeests...) doesn't seem to know what attitude to adopt in front of a predator they have never seen before. Thus the hunt for these solitary tigers in Africa seems to be easier. On the other hand, when they killed a big prey they have to eat it quickly before a group of lions comes to oust them or before a pride of spotted hyenas comes to report them noisily to every predator in the vicinity. The tigers hate the publicity. Second case: lions surviving in an indian dense forest. As we can see about lions living in ethopian forests, they are able to be more elusive than usual. The added challenge for them is to avoid too numerous confrontations with the huge predator previously dominating this biotop: the tiger. For that, the life in prides is their main advantage, the tiger staying the most efficient, the most natural predator in this kind of environment. Like in Africa, the lions tend to live more in "open spaces" while the tigers would prefer to haunt the most wooded areas. To see that, they should share large areas. A thing still possible in Africa (the biggest parks reaching 30.000-50.000 square kilometers), but no more in India where the protected spaces mostly don't exceed 1000-2000 square kilometers in size. 
This thread is as highly interesting as it is speculative, like it!
Tigers in typical Lion habitat: In this scenario tigers would have to adapt to the new environment, which is suited for lions. If they want to compete for the crown of the apex predator, they most likely would have to copy the lions lifestyle here and there. Meaning start to forming coalitions. They are capable to do that as we know, look at the telia sisters and others. Still, a tiger is a tiger with some aspects in his behaviour, which it doesnt wants to change probably. Meaning the love with water and elusiveness. Considering those points, they may look for areas with the thickest vegetation and most water supply. Here they would have to face nile crocodiles and hippos. Both very aggresive species when it comes to defending their territory against intrudors. But i believe tigers would be able to handle this situation. In the mangroves of sundarbans smaller sized tigers are able to coexist with salties, officially the biggest subspecies of crocodiles and not less aggresive than nile crocs. . Considering that, tigers should be able to find a way to handle nile crocs. Hippos could be difficult, but this could really go either way: In hippos chasing tigers away from water holes, or in tigers seeing hippos as potential prey! Anyway tigers need to find their niche in the savannah ecosystem, but in any possible scenario, i think there is no way to avoid violent clashes with the local mane carrying rulers. Even if lions usually avoid water, they still have to drink like almost every living creature. Competition from other predators should be managable. Adult males in their prime should do very well most of the time, even against prides of spotted hyenas. Females and sub - adults however should watch out if alone, like in lions. Lions in typical Tiger habitat: If we flip the cards, lions most likely would face similiar tasks like tigers in savannah: Making compromises and adapting to the new environment! This means adios big prides or large coalitions. The russian far east doesnt supports big prides of apex predators. Even for a single tiger its tough to survive there, let alone a theoretical pride of lions. Even in most indian reserves, it could be hard to find suitable prey which supports the needs of a whole pride. Dense vegetation is the next problem. Even if there is enough cover for a surprise attack, there is no chance that a bigger group of lions goes undetected under the eyes of the jungle (langurs and other monkeys). The only way to succesfully survive would be living a solitary live like tigers or giving up big prides and switch to smaller coalitions like in Gir. Apart from tigers, there should be no other real threat for them from other predators. Sloth and asian black bears could be a challenge for solitary specimens in some situations, but those encounters would be rare i guess. Overall i think, african lions would start to kill cattle at first, when they realize that chital and wild boars arent enough to support the whole pride. Adult sambars however are fairly suitable to feed at least 3-4 lions. The biggest prize would be gaur, which are rare and mostly occur in dense vegetation. But there are two places where both cats live in similiar conditions (at least to a degree) with mega fauna, enough water and open + dense vegetation: Kaziranga and Okavango delta! If tigers from Kaziranga would be released into Okavango, chances could be very high for a fast adaption and succesfull suvival. Also vice versa with lions from Okavango into Kaziranga. Herds of wild water buffalos, rhinos, sambar and barasingha should be able to satisfy even a big pride of lions. I think in these areas, both cats wouldnt be forced to accept such high levels of compromises. All in all, this experiments would cause a major imbalance to the ecosystem at first, with unpredictable consequences. Doesnt changes the fact, that its highly exciting. 
(07-31-2017, 07:54 AM)Brehm Wrote: This thread is as highly interesting as it is speculative, like it! That's a really good analysis!!. 
Wow.. Really nice inputs
@Spalea, Agree on the point of tiger would adopt most wooded land first. But I think they will also come out in open for bigger and slower prey. @Brehm, Really those are some solid analysis. So you mean that Tiger may start forming coalition to survive against lion ? Though I think this will take time and in between that, they need to avoid group of lions in any case. I agree Gaur would be their best bet to fed entire pride of lions if they need to survive in India. The biggest problem that a lion will face is due to his current social life. A lioness and cubs can easily be killed by male tigers if caught alone or even 2. Tiger are ambush hunter and this will allow them to hunt down lone lioness. Now if number of lioness decrease in a pride, Male lion are in danger becasue they mostly relies on lioness hunt for prey. With huge mane and dense passage, it will be harder for male lion to hunt easily on Indian forest and wooded land. Though these are pure speculations, I am sure the original result will be lot different for both cat. So far interesting inputs. Waiting for more inputs.
@sanjay @Brehm
(10-09-2017, 09:55 PM)Pckts Wrote: Because Bird is bigger than Sundarban and because Sundarban is low on testosterone, Sundarban is unable to remove Bird from the territory. Quote:Bird mating with Tibo at Tiger Canyons. Back in the days, the paintings of royal hunts in the western kingdoms of Punjab & Rajputana (which also happened to be ones with significant lion populations) almost always showed a pair of tigers. All types of hunts...  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author I had brought this up once in "Asiatic lion reintroduction Project" thread, while discussing how tigers might have coexisted in those lion country. These duos were more likely mating pairs though... 
Considering lions in typical tiger habitat or tigers in typical lion habitat, wouldn't their coat colors cause considerable problems in their hunting capabilities?
(04-06-2018, 02:45 PM)brotherbear Wrote: Considering lions in typical tiger habitat or tigers in typical lion habitat, wouldn't their coat colors cause considerable problems in their hunting capabilities? (04-06-2018, 04:20 PM)sanjay Wrote: Yes, in some extent.. Tigers black stripe is more visible in open and plain grassland. Lion plain color can not hide well in tall grass, forest with lots of logs etc.. Not true! Tigers are extremely at home in grass & i don't mean Indian elephant grass. Here's paddy. It's 2-3 feet tall.  *This image is copyright of its original author ...in tall grass though.  *This image is copyright of its original author And lions are extremely at home in dry forests too.  *This image is copyright of its original author In dense forest/mangroves you won't see your own outstretched arms! Tigers there use vegetation for cover, not camouflage. They have little need for the latter. Let's see how the lions of Gabon fare... The camouflage isn't meant to work with bland greenery, where both would stand out equally. It's meant to work with fallen leaves of the ground, branches & leaves of the undergrowth, alternating dry & wet grass, sunlight & shade... For example, Can you spot the lion/s in the following image?  *This image is copyright of its original author Did you? If yes, good, you have fine eyes. Now try a bit tougher. This one is my favourite!  *This image is copyright of its original author . . . . I'm sorry for just wasting some of your time, but there is no lion (...or is there?) But you did spend time looking for it, didn't you? It's another important aspect of camouflage. False positives! If one have been to a jungle-safari he'd know how often we go, "Whoa! There's a lion/tiger... eeehhh.. nope.. That's just twigs..." And the predator can be the way you're not looking! 
Is there any noteworthy progress with the relocation of lions.
I'm personally a bit unsure about the two biggest cats sharing a Reserve, I don't say they can't at least in the past, but when there's limited space and surrounded by the urban jungle, I find it hard to see it not turning into a full out war between them! It's like with the cheetah and lion relationship in Africa, its been going fine for hundreds of years, but when they are forced closer together the lion has become the number 1 threat for cheetahs. I'm not comparing the tiger with a cheetah, but it shows limited space will change things quite a bit. Alone I think the lions would struggle, but they come in prides and coalitions that might be ugly for the tiger and the lions breed like rabbits, but for Indian tourism it would be absolutely fantastic to have these two species sharing the Reserve, but would the sharing last? Hard to say I would love to see it, but I'm also fearful that one species would wipe out the other. 
I apologise if you've read this before from my post on another thread, but this is just some food for thought on scenario 2, not necessarily very scientific, but a feasible theory nonetheless
Were Tigers responsible for driving lions out of India? Lions migrated out of Africa during the 800–100 thousand years ago into Europe, Asia and North America extending as far south as Peru and becoming the most widespread large terrestrial mammals during the 100–10 thousand years ago. On the other hand tigers originated in Eastern Asia and than dispersed South, South-west, North and North-west & reached India about 12000 to 16000 years ago, where lions were already present. Of course increased killing & poaching & loss of habitat due to human population expansion have pushed the lions towards extinction but than the same is applicable to even tigers & in fact tiger's highly valuable skin & body parts are sought for use in traditional Chinese medicine and exotic recipes & this makes them more vulnerable to poaching relatively, so why is it that tigers still occupy more territory than lions in India? The only factor responsible for this is...... the tiger. The following are theories that support the notion that tigers are the main reason why lions no longer inhabit India: "It (the tiger) was more cunning and powerful than the lion and therefore it killed off or drove the lion away from the areas it occupied." [Kesri Singh, Oct. 26, 1955, Experiments in implanting African lions into Madhya Bharat - Journal, Bombay Natural History Society, Vol. 53, (p. 465-46 8)] "Then the tiger came down from the north-from Siberia and Manchuria-and the lion slowly began to lose ground before that more active animal." [Kenneth Anderson, The Call of the Man-Eater, Chilton Books, Philadelphia and New York, 1961 (p. 210)] "If tigers arrived in India later than lions, as is possible, then there is every probability that they were the containing factor" [Richard Perry, The World of the Tiger, Atheneum, New York, 1965 (p.165)] "Often larger and stronger than the lion, the tiger is credited with driving it from India" [Jack Denton Scott, Speaking Wildly, William Morrow & Company, Inc. New York, 1966 (p. 256)] "The lion … reaching northern India before they were halted, presumably by tigers coming from the other direction." [Franklin Russell, The Hunting Animal, Harper & Row, Publishers, Inc., New York, 1983 (p.38)] "They say it is dangerous for the lions to be in tiger territory. But just eight tigers in Kuno pose no grave threat" [Dionne Bunsha, "A kingdom too small", Frontline , Vol. 22, Issue 10, May 7-20, 2005] Kuno tiger reserve is identified as a proposed translocation site in Madhya Pradesh. Madhya Pradesh has been trying to lay its hand on a few of Gir’s surplus lions for more than a decade, hoping to move them to a forest near Gwalior, to its Kunopalpur forest reserve. Gujarat didn’t actually refuse to move lions: It simply did not. The MP government has since approached the Supreme Court, but Gujarat refuses. “Why should we give up our lions?” a senior politician argued, requesting anonymity. Wildlife experts cite another reason. “Lions and tigers can’t stay in the same forest,” said S.K. Nanda, state environment and forest secretary. “There are tigers at Kunopalpur. We won’t sacrifice our lions.” [In Gir, too many lions, too little space, November 16, 2008, Hindustan Times] (06-08-2018, 05:17 AM)Sully Wrote: I apologise if you've read this before from my post on another thread, but this is just some food for thought on scenario 2, not necessarily very scientific, but a feasible theory nonetheless Highly unlikely... Two of my posts on this topic, if you're interested i'd suggest reading the full conversations. #387 & #276
I have always wondered which of the big panthera cats are the strongest pound for pound. Not fighting abilities or aggression, but pure strength! Every cat has immense strength, but which is stronger?
Tiger (panthera Tigris) The biggest cat in the world, extremely muscular and powerful. Capable of bringing down adult bull gaurs and water buffalo and even rhinos which are easily 5 times the tigers own weight. Stories have told many tales about the tigers strength, and the tiger is today a symbol of strength and power all over the world! I've heard about that a tiger was once able to drag a carcass of a bull gaur twice as long as 13 grown men.  *This image is copyright of its original author Lion (Panthera Leo) The lion is the second largest cat in the world and the most social of all cats. They can with their numbers bring down almost every single prey item on the African plains even the massive elephants aren't safe. Males do not hunt as much as females and when they first do hunt it's most often with the whole pride or with their coalition. So rarely do you actually get to see what a lone male lion actually are capable of. But just as much as the tiger (most likely more) the lion symbols strength and power all over the world.  *This image is copyright of its original author Jaguar (panthera Onca) The Jaguar is the largest cat on the American continent and does have the strongest bite of all cats. The crush the skulls of their prey unlike other cats who deliver the deadly bite in the throat or neck. They will mostly hunt caimans and capibara, but also tapir and large domestic cattle.  *This image is copyright of its original author Leopard (panthera Pardus) The smallest of the big cats, still a large animal capable of bringing down large prey Like wild boar, large deer and antilope species, big reptiles and zebras. They will also hoist their prey up in trees to keep it away from larger carnivorous animals. Leopards I'm sure could show even more, but they are rarely top cats through out their range and making huge kills would most likely be a waste of energy as the prey would get stolen by a larger predator.  *This image is copyright of its original author So I hope that people have some great talking points and observations they themselves have made over the years! |
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