There is a world somewhere between reality and fiction. Although ignored by many, it is very real and so are those living in it. This forum is about the natural world. Here, wild animals will be heard and respected. The forum offers a glimpse into an unknown world as well as a room with a view on the present and the future. Anyone able to speak on behalf of those living in the emerald forest and the deep blue sea is invited to join.
If the tigers were going to live in the African savannahs, they should have to adapt in this new biotop for them. Yes !
But we only consider this problem by the means of the tigers potentialities. A new huge predator going on stage isn't an insignificant event for the whole native predators "community". And especially the apex predator of this biotop for a long time: the lions.
The tigers would have to adapt in order to thrive in the savannahs by becoming social predators ? The lions would have to adapt too in front of an opponent they didn't know before. And same thing as concerns the other social predators: hyenas and African wild dogs.
It would be anything but an one-sided conflict.
12-30-2021, 03:36 AM( This post was last modified: 12-30-2021, 03:46 AM by LonePredator )
(12-29-2021, 02:48 PM)Spalea Wrote: If the tigers were going to live in the African savannahs, they should have to adapt in this new biotop for them. Yes !
But we only consider this problem by the means of the tigers potentialities. A new huge predator going on stage isn't an insignificant event for the whole native predators "community". And especially the apex predator of this biotop for a long time: the lions.
The tigers would have to adapt in order to thrive in the savannahs by becoming social predators ? The lions would have to adapt too in front of an opponent they didn't know before. And same thing as concerns the other social predators: hyenas and African wild dogs.
It would be anything but an one-sided conflict.
No, I mostly disagree, Lions would not undergo as much change as Tigers would unless they continue to coexist for a very very long time (which is unlikely). Just think about it. For Tigers, it's a new habitat, new rival(s), new prey, new conditions. The whole thing is completely separate from their home, the Indian forests
For Lions, you can't say the same to such a degree, all they get is a new rival, although more threatening than any other rival they have had but it still can't be a cause for such huge change.
With that said, Tigers would undergo a lot more changes than Lions would. Also a simple behavioral change such as becoming more social would take a lot less time to occur than let's say a change in morphology (which the lions would require in order to compete with Tigers)
And in one case where they could continue to coexist for a long period of time (which is the only case I can think of) then the Lions could potentially change.
The Lions would grow smaller in size as their prey supply could get cut in half by the Tigers (depending on how many Tigers) and also because Lions aren't able to take the largest prey like Tigers can. So whoever fails to compete would have to grow smaller in size and that would likely be the lion for the reasons I mentioned.
Now you might ask why wouldn't Tigers grow smaller. My answer to that is because if Tigers do become social then that makes them the top predators of the savannah and they also are seemingly capable of taking larger prey than Lions.
And in such cases since the lions wouldn't be able to compete with Tigers, they would have to grow smaller in size so that they need less food and that would also allow them to avoid competition with Tigers
About #48: I seriously think that you are overestimating the tiger's strength, tiger's potentialities, too much. I understand that you are admiring the striped cat, but here you're completely raving. The only way for lions to survive in a savannah dominated by tigers would be to grow smaller in size. Big gag !
During the prehistoric times, unlike the tigers, lions were everywhere, in Africa, in America, in Europa, and in Siberia despite a much fierce competition than nowaday (bears, shot faced bears, grey wolves, sabertooth cats... And tigers). And now because they would face to a new predator, their only way to adapt would be becoming smaller in size. It isn't rational, only fanaticism.
Even if the tiger is the most powerful extant big cat, a fight between a lion and a tiger isn't a one-sided fight. Sometimes the tiger wins, sometimes lion. You just need to read some accounts by tamers who mixed them.
About #48: I seriously think that you are overestimating the tiger's strength, tiger's potentialities, too much. I understand that you are admiring the striped cat, but here you're completely raving. The only way for lions to survive in a savannah dominated by tigers would be to grow smaller in size. Big gag !
During the prehistoric times, unlike the tigers, lions were everywhere, in Africa, in America, in Europa, and in Siberia despite a much fierce competition than nowaday (bears, shot faced bears, grey wolves, sabertooth cats... And tigers). And now because they would face to a new predator, their only way to adapt would be becoming smaller in size. It isn't rational, only fanaticism.
Even if the tiger is the most powerful extant big cat, a fight between a lion and a tiger isn't a one-sided fight. Sometimes the tiger wins, sometimes lion. You just need to read some accounts by tamers who mixed them.
You can think I'm raving, you can think what you want, you're free to do that. But the thing is, you are not looking at this with an open and rational mindset. You are just defending Lions.
You talk about those American and European Lions. Do you know different those American Lions and Cave Lions were? They were completely different species. They were so different from Lions that the Cave Lions actually diverged from these Lions more than 2 million years ago
And in the end you drag Clyde Beatty's Lion vs Tiger fights into this discussion which is hilarious. We will not debate on who wins a fight between a Tiger and a Lion but keep this in mind, Tigers have the advantage in nearly every single aspect.
You are unable to comprehend this simple concept here, Tigers are larger and stronger plus they are better hunters. They regularly hunt one ton gaurs again and have hunted huge pachyderms before.
They are big in size because they feed on large prey. When an animal has been feeding on large prey, they grow in size. When the animal stats feeding on smaller prey, they get smaller in size.
Tigers would take bigger prey and a lot of the Tigers' food will come out of the Lion's part. As their intake decreases, the lions would grow smaller in size to be able to sustain themselves.
It's either they grow smaller to satisfy themselves with what they have or they keep competing with Tigers which is unlikely. The competition is bad for both the animals but one is obviously more likely to survive and the other would perish (and the one to survive would likely be Tigers because they have several advantages for interspecies conflict as I stated before). Why is it difficult for you to understand??
Although, the Tigers would also perish if they can't adapt and become social in which case the Lions would claim their lives in territorial conflicts. In fact, I'm even saying this is the most realistic possible outcome, few Tigers outnumbered and the Lions gang up on them and they won't survive.
But if the Tigers do get social then this has to turn out in favour of the Tigers and it will prove to be a huge threat to the existence of Lions.
I just advise you to keep an open mind about this and it's great that you admire Lions, I do too but nature obviously does not care about our admiration of Lions.
Circunstances within overlaps can amount to multiple outcomes. If tigers were placed in savanna, bushveld, lowveld, or even the Okavango Delta environments, the implications for lions would be different, but certainly none would drive tigers to be social because they are competing with a predator of similar size. Such a scale of behavioral change would take at least hundreds of years as each generation builds some small, subtle, or barely perceptible new interactions. If proximity to the lion will make any changes to its evolutionary nature.
There is no way to predict tiger behavior, especially in the early years when its stress level will peak. From my point of view, it would be entirely rational to imagine that tigers would likely not take off in a landscape with a high density of lions. As well, I'm more concerned about the practical issues that will drive the tiger to stay in lion pride, such as adapting to the new range of prey, habitat, pathogens - and the entire ecological web. Predicting "social tigers" is a fantasy, but I think it is possible that, in a enormous and balanced habitat, the two species can coexist, and some ligers or tigon may also occasionally be seen in the landscape (there will always be lionesses that for "N" reasons live apart from proud flocks, and male lions encountering ovulating tigress).
Everyone can exercise their imagination.
If it's worth imagining, having the jaguar in the Congolese forest or even in the forested savannas of Africa would be a very interesting point. More than tigers, jaguars would have more chances of a less traumatic adaptation - but it's all speculation!
Honestly, I don’t think there’s any prey that tigers take down that would be off-limits to lions. Lions in Botswana have been documented taking down adult African elephants, which is literally the biggest prey possible, short of them becoming sea-land-sea-lions and hunting whales.
(As for one-on-one territorial fights between a lion and a tiger, I disagree entirely with the notion that one would be guaranteed to “slaughter” the other; on the whole I see them as being very evenly matched. I’ve seen how ridiculously heated online arguments about this topic can get though, and I also note that “vs topics” are in fact supposed to be banned here, so that’s as far as I’ll go on the topic!)
01-19-2022, 04:13 PM( This post was last modified: 01-19-2022, 09:09 PM by LonePredator )
(12-29-2021, 02:48 PM)Spalea Wrote: If the tigers were going to live in the African savannahs, they should have to adapt in this new biotop for them. Yes !
But we only consider this problem by the means of the tigers potentialities. A new huge predator going on stage isn't an insignificant event for the whole native predators "community". And especially the apex predator of this biotop for a long time: the lions.
The tigers would have to adapt in order to thrive in the savannahs by becoming social predators ? The lions would have to adapt too in front of an opponent they didn't know before. And same thing as concerns the other social predators: hyenas and African wild dogs.
It would be anything but an one-sided conflict.
(01-19-2022, 01:50 PM)LandSeaLion Wrote: Honestly, I don’t think there’s any prey that tigers take down that would be off-limits to lions. Lions in Botswana have been documented taking down adult African elephants, which is literally the biggest prey possible, short of them becoming sea-land-sea-lions and hunting whales.
(As for one-on-one territorial fights between a lion and a tiger, I disagree entirely with the notion that one would be guaranteed to “slaughter” the other; on the whole I see them as being very evenly matched. I’ve seen how ridiculously heated online arguments about this topic can get though, and I also note that “vs topics” are in fact supposed to be banned here, so that’s as far as I’ll go on the topic!)
Since you are making such a claim, do you have any proof of Lions killing adult elephants? And even if it did happen it was likely done by a huge group of lions not a single individual so there is a big difference
Quote:Since you are making such a claim, do you have any proof of Lions killing adult elephants? And even if it did happen it was likely done by a huge group of lions not a single individual so there is a big difference
Look up the Savuti pride of Botswana. They adapted to hunt elephants in the dry season. One of their kills (a smaller adult) was captured in the documentary Planet Earth in the 00s. The behaviour has also been documented by Beverly and Dereck Joubert (see Joubert 2006 - the majority of kills were of elephants aged between 4 and 15 years old, but there were also several kills of 15+ year-old elephants, at least one of which was classed as a full-sized adult. If that’s pay-walled, Power 2009 also has a discussion).
And yep, they did indeed hunt them in big groups. That is what makes them such a threat - this is about the hypothetical situation of tigers learning to survive in Africa. They, too, would likely have to adapt to become social in order to stand a chance of survival in that particular environment, given the existing competition (a similar-sized cat that lives in big groups and already hunts the biggest prey available, plus also hyenas - themselves a very dangerous threat to lions when they form big enough clans).
Quote:Since you are making such a claim, do you have any proof of Lions killing adult elephants? And even if it did happen it was likely done by a huge group of lions not a single individual so there is a big difference
Look up the Savuti pride of Botswana. They adapted to hunt elephants in the dry season. One of their kills (a smaller adult) was captured in the documentary Planet Earth in the 00s. The behaviour has also been documented by Beverly and Dereck Joubert (see Joubert 2006 - the majority of kills were of elephants aged between 4 and 15 years old, but there were also several kills of 15+ year-old elephants, at least one of which was classed as a full-sized adult. If that’s pay-walled, Power 2009 also has a discussion).
And yep, they did indeed hunt them in big groups. That is what makes them such a threat - this is about the hypothetical situation of tigers learning to survive in Africa. They, too, would likely have to adapt to become social in order to stand a chance of survival in that particular environment, given the existing competition (a similar-sized cat that lives in big groups and already hunts the biggest prey available, plus also hyenas - themselves a very dangerous threat to lions when they form big enough clans).
I read both the papers that you attached and there was only 1 single elephant killed by the Lions which was an adult and it does not say whether it was a male or a female. So the Lions made 187 attempts to kill adult elephants but only 1 was successful and it could be a female and it may or may not have been healthy.
The second paper only describes elephants between 9 and 11 years of age. And the second paper also describes that it takes at least 25 Lions to kill an elephant in that age range as every single attempt failed unless there were at least 25 lions attempting.
So no, based on the data that we have you cannot say that Lions prey on adult elephants. They don't!
Quote:Since you are making such a claim, do you have any proof of Lions killing adult elephants? And even if it did happen it was likely done by a huge group of lions not a single individual so there is a big difference
Look up the Savuti pride of Botswana. They adapted to hunt elephants in the dry season. One of their kills (a smaller adult) was captured in the documentary Planet Earth in the 00s. The behaviour has also been documented by Beverly and Dereck Joubert (see Joubert 2006 - the majority of kills were of elephants aged between 4 and 15 years old, but there were also several kills of 15+ year-old elephants, at least one of which was classed as a full-sized adult. If that’s pay-walled, Power 2009 also has a discussion).
And yep, they did indeed hunt them in big groups. That is what makes them such a threat - this is about the hypothetical situation of tigers learning to survive in Africa. They, too, would likely have to adapt to become social in order to stand a chance of survival in that particular environment, given the existing competition (a similar-sized cat that lives in big groups and already hunts the biggest prey available, plus also hyenas - themselves a very dangerous threat to lions when they form big enough clans).
I read both the papers that you attached and there was only 1 single elephant killed by the Lions which was an adult and it does not say whether it was a male or a female. So the Lions made 187 attempts to kill adult elephants but only 1 was successful and it could be a female and it may or may not have been healthy.
The second paper only describes elephants between 9 and 11 years of age. And the second paper also describes that it takes at least 25 Lions to kill an elephant in that age range as every single attempt failed unless there were at least 25 lions attempting.
So no, based on the data that we have you cannot say that Lions prey on adult elephants. They don't!
I am attaching the data below
“There was only 1 single elephant killed by the lions which was an adult.”
“You cannot say that lions prey on adult elephants. They don’t!”
These two comments contradict each other. You asked for data showing that lions have preyed on adult African elephants, and that is what I’ve provided.
As far as I’m aware tiger predation on elephants in India (which are smaller than those in Africa) is less-well documented in rigorous academic studies. They, too, prefer to prey on the young, injured and sick though, which is only logical, given the risk:reward ratio.
Quote:Since you are making such a claim, do you have any proof of Lions killing adult elephants? And even if it did happen it was likely done by a huge group of lions not a single individual so there is a big difference
Look up the Savuti pride of Botswana. They adapted to hunt elephants in the dry season. One of their kills (a smaller adult) was captured in the documentary Planet Earth in the 00s. The behaviour has also been documented by Beverly and Dereck Joubert (see Joubert 2006 - the majority of kills were of elephants aged between 4 and 15 years old, but there were also several kills of 15+ year-old elephants, at least one of which was classed as a full-sized adult. If that’s pay-walled, Power 2009 also has a discussion).
And yep, they did indeed hunt them in big groups. That is what makes them such a threat - this is about the hypothetical situation of tigers learning to survive in Africa. They, too, would likely have to adapt to become social in order to stand a chance of survival in that particular environment, given the existing competition (a similar-sized cat that lives in big groups and already hunts the biggest prey available, plus also hyenas - themselves a very dangerous threat to lions when they form big enough clans).
I read both the papers that you attached and there was only 1 single elephant killed by the Lions which was an adult and it does not say whether it was a male or a female. So the Lions made 187 attempts to kill adult elephants but only 1 was successful and it could be a female and it may or may not have been healthy.
The second paper only describes elephants between 9 and 11 years of age. And the second paper also describes that it takes at least 25 Lions to kill an elephant in that age range as every single attempt failed unless there were at least 25 lions attempting.
So no, based on the data that we have you cannot say that Lions prey on adult elephants. They don't!
I am attaching the data below
“There was only 1 single elephant killed by the lions which was an adult.”
“You cannot say that lions prey on adult elephants. They don’t!”
These two comments contradict each other. You asked for data showing that lions have preyed on adult African elephants, and that is what I’ve provided.
As far as I’m aware tiger predation on elephants in India (which are smaller than those in Africa) is less-well documented in rigorous academic studies. They, too, prefer to prey on the young, injured and sick though, which is only logical, given the risk:reward ratio.
First of all, the probability of Lions hunting adult elephant is only 1 in 187 so how can you say that Lions hunt adult elephants?? Just because it happened ONCE in an exceptional case does not mean it HAPPENS! That’s simple logic. And that could have likely been a female or a sick individual.
So I will still say the same thing, Lions do NOT prey on adult elephants.
And SECOND, I NEVER said Tigers hunt adult male elephants even if it may or may not have happened before. It was you who brought up the comparison and you said Lions hunt adult elephants.
And every time Tigers would hunt elephants they would hunt alone or in pairs unlike Lions who need a group of at least 27 individuals (for juvenile ones). So that’s a huge difference and yes I know that African Elephants are a little bit bigger but still that’s a drastic difference.
However, if your only motive here is to do a ‘Tiger vs Lion who is better’ comparison then I would refuse to continue this any further.
I would request you to stop this now as well because we can clearly see from the data that hunting adult elephants is not something that Lions do.
I would not respond any further if you stay on the topic of Lions vs Tigers as that is a violation of the rules
Quote:Since you are making such a claim, do you have any proof of Lions killing adult elephants? And even if it did happen it was likely done by a huge group of lions not a single individual so there is a big difference
Look up the Savuti pride of Botswana. They adapted to hunt elephants in the dry season. One of their kills (a smaller adult) was captured in the documentary Planet Earth in the 00s. The behaviour has also been documented by Beverly and Dereck Joubert (see Joubert 2006 - the majority of kills were of elephants aged between 4 and 15 years old, but there were also several kills of 15+ year-old elephants, at least one of which was classed as a full-sized adult. If that’s pay-walled, Power 2009 also has a discussion).
And yep, they did indeed hunt them in big groups. That is what makes them such a threat - this is about the hypothetical situation of tigers learning to survive in Africa. They, too, would likely have to adapt to become social in order to stand a chance of survival in that particular environment, given the existing competition (a similar-sized cat that lives in big groups and already hunts the biggest prey available, plus also hyenas - themselves a very dangerous threat to lions when they form big enough clans).
I read both the papers that you attached and there was only 1 single elephant killed by the Lions which was an adult and it does not say whether it was a male or a female. So the Lions made 187 attempts to kill adult elephants but only 1 was successful and it could be a female and it may or may not have been healthy.
The second paper only describes elephants between 9 and 11 years of age. And the second paper also describes that it takes at least 25 Lions to kill an elephant in that age range as every single attempt failed unless there were at least 25 lions attempting.
So no, based on the data that we have you cannot say that Lions prey on adult elephants. They don't!
I am attaching the data below
“There was only 1 single elephant killed by the lions which was an adult.”
“You cannot say that lions prey on adult elephants. They don’t!”
These two comments contradict each other. You asked for data showing that lions have preyed on adult African elephants, and that is what I’ve provided.
As far as I’m aware tiger predation on elephants in India (which are smaller than those in Africa) is less-well documented in rigorous academic studies. They, too, prefer to prey on the young, injured and sick though, which is only logical, given the risk:reward ratio.
First of all, the probability of Lions hunting adult elephant is only 1 in 187 so how can you say that Lions hunt adult elephants?? Just because it happened ONCE in an exceptional case does not mean it HAPPENS! That’s simple logic. And that could have likely been a female or a sick individual.
So I will still say the same thing, Lions do NOT prey on adult elephants.
And SECOND, I NEVER said Tigers hunt adult male elephants even if it may or may not have happened before. It was you who brought up the comparison and you said Lions hunt adult elephants.
And every time Tigers would hunt elephants they would hunt alone or in pairs unlike Lions who need a group of at least 27 individuals (for juvenile ones). So that’s a huge difference and yes I know that African Elephants are a little bit bigger but still that’s a drastic difference.
However, if your only motive here is to do a ‘Tiger vs Lion who is better’ comparison then I would refuse to continue this any further.
I would request you to stop this now as well because we can clearly see from the data that hunting adult elephants is not something that Lions do.
I would not respond any further if you stay on the topic of Lions vs Tigers as that is a violation of the rules
…what? You were the one who turned this into a “lion vs tiger” thing in the first place (edit: including predation on elephants - see below). The rest of us were just discussing whether or not tigers could survive in Africa before you came along. And that’s all I’m interested in too, frankly.
Anyway, yes, I am more than happy to drop this topic. :)
Quote:And SECOND, I NEVER said Tigers hunt adult male elephants even if it may or may not have happened before. It was you who brought up the comparison and you said Lions hunt adult elephants.
Quote:You are unable to comprehend this simple concept here, Tigers are larger and stronger plus they are better hunters. They regularly hunt one ton gaurs again and have hunted huge pachyderms before.
Quote:Since you are making such a claim, do you have any proof of Lions killing adult elephants? And even if it did happen it was likely done by a huge group of lions not a single individual so there is a big difference
Look up the Savuti pride of Botswana. They adapted to hunt elephants in the dry season. One of their kills (a smaller adult) was captured in the documentary Planet Earth in the 00s. The behaviour has also been documented by Beverly and Dereck Joubert (see Joubert 2006 - the majority of kills were of elephants aged between 4 and 15 years old, but there were also several kills of 15+ year-old elephants, at least one of which was classed as a full-sized adult. If that’s pay-walled, Power 2009 also has a discussion).
And yep, they did indeed hunt them in big groups. That is what makes them such a threat - this is about the hypothetical situation of tigers learning to survive in Africa. They, too, would likely have to adapt to become social in order to stand a chance of survival in that particular environment, given the existing competition (a similar-sized cat that lives in big groups and already hunts the biggest prey available, plus also hyenas - themselves a very dangerous threat to lions when they form big enough clans).
I read both the papers that you attached and there was only 1 single elephant killed by the Lions which was an adult and it does not say whether it was a male or a female. So the Lions made 187 attempts to kill adult elephants but only 1 was successful and it could be a female and it may or may not have been healthy.
The second paper only describes elephants between 9 and 11 years of age. And the second paper also describes that it takes at least 25 Lions to kill an elephant in that age range as every single attempt failed unless there were at least 25 lions attempting.
So no, based on the data that we have you cannot say that Lions prey on adult elephants. They don't!
I am attaching the data below
“There was only 1 single elephant killed by the lions which was an adult.”
“You cannot say that lions prey on adult elephants. They don’t!”
These two comments contradict each other. You asked for data showing that lions have preyed on adult African elephants, and that is what I’ve provided.
As far as I’m aware tiger predation on elephants in India (which are smaller than those in Africa) is less-well documented in rigorous academic studies. They, too, prefer to prey on the young, injured and sick though, which is only logical, given the risk:reward ratio.
First of all, the probability of Lions hunting adult elephant is only 1 in 187 so how can you say that Lions hunt adult elephants?? Just because it happened ONCE in an exceptional case does not mean it HAPPENS! That’s simple logic. And that could have likely been a female or a sick individual.
So I will still say the same thing, Lions do NOT prey on adult elephants.
And SECOND, I NEVER said Tigers hunt adult male elephants even if it may or may not have happened before. It was you who brought up the comparison and you said Lions hunt adult elephants.
And every time Tigers would hunt elephants they would hunt alone or in pairs unlike Lions who need a group of at least 27 individuals (for juvenile ones). So that’s a huge difference and yes I know that African Elephants are a little bit bigger but still that’s a drastic difference.
However, if your only motive here is to do a ‘Tiger vs Lion who is better’ comparison then I would refuse to continue this any further.
I would request you to stop this now as well because we can clearly see from the data that hunting adult elephants is not something that Lions do.
I would not respond any further if you stay on the topic of Lions vs Tigers as that is a violation of the rules
…what? You were the one who turned this into a “lion vs tiger” thing in the first place. The rest of us were just discussing whether or not tigers could survive in Africa before you came along. And that’s all I’m interested in too, frankly.
Anyway, yes, I am more than happy to drop this topic. :)
It is impossible to answer the question of whether Tigers would survive in Africa or not without comparing them with Lions though I remained as unbiased as possible keeping both animals’ strengths and weaknesses in mind.
Regardless, I would gladly delete my posts if any of the moderators think it is inappropriate as there are individuals here who have far more knowledge of the two animals than I do.
Personal Opinion & Speculations
