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Persian Leopard (Panthera pardus saxicolor)

United States Pckts Online
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#31
( This post was last modified: 06-26-2015, 01:48 AM by Pckts )

(06-26-2015, 01:38 AM)'Jubatus' Wrote: Alborz

*This image is copyright of its original author


*This image is copyright of its original author


*This image is copyright of its original author


This huge male Persian Male Leopard called Alborz sadly comes to a tragic ending, as he had to be put down because of a fatal shot to his spine. On Jan. 3 2014 local authorities was called out to a huge, wounded Leopard barely crawling by the side of a river. A local wildlifeteam rushed out to find a leopard unable to properly move, that also had a fracture in one of his forelimbs. He was after taken to a rehablilitation center in Theran, where they tried to heal him. When he was taken back to the center it showed that he weighed 115 kgs, and was 8 years old (!). The examination showed that he had been shot several times during a one year period, with the most recent one penetreting his spine. The veterenarians relentles work to keep this magnificent animal alive sadly failed after 10 days, when they saw that the injury was to dredful for the leopard to stay alive, and he had to be put down. The person guilty was luckily found, it turned out to be a father and a son who had shot the Leopard. And they were detanied to 6 months of prison, and a fine of 50,000,000 IRR (1600 USD). 


The whole article, and other Leopard news can be read in the Iranian Cheetah Society`s Perisan Leopard News letter. Here is a link to the one with this article:
http://www.rufford.org/files/Persian%20L...202014.pdf
 

 


I would definitely do a little research into this.
Such a large weight for a severely wounded leopard that would obviously not be in full health isn't likely.

I'd like to see body measurements to actually see if his weight adds up.
Looking at him, he certainly doesn't look like a 250lb animal.
I have sent an email and will post any response if received.
Thanks for the link and info
 
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United States Pckts Online
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#32

Just for comparision
This is a 280lb Malayan Tiger on the vet table

*This image is copyright of its original author
Photo By Michael Paulsen Benjamin Macuil, left, and Dr. Brian Beale, right, inspect Pandu, a 280lb. Malayan Tiger, before surgeons with Gulf Coast Veterinary Specialists perform an arthroscopic surgery and stem cell procedure on the cat's elbow, at the Denton A. Cooley Animal Hospital at the Houston Zoo, Wednesday, June 20, 2012, in Houston. ( Michael Paulsen / Houston Chronicle )
http://www.chron.com/life/article/Big-ca...668385.php

*This image is copyright of its original author


*This image is copyright of its original author




Im sorry, but No way is that leopard only 30lbs less than this tiger.
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United States Pckts Online
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#33
( This post was last modified: 06-26-2015, 02:18 AM by Pckts )


*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author


Or

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*This image is copyright of its original author

Leopard is 250lbs (allegedly)        Tiger is 280lbs(allegedly)


I truly don't think that leopard is even close to 115kg to be honest, but if the email comes back to me and states that he was, then thats all I can go off of I guess.
I asked for measurements as well, hopefully they provide them.


 
Edit: Got a response
"I am forwarding your email to Mohammad Farhadinia, who might be aware of the body measurements of that individual.

Ehsan"

So at least they have responded, hopefully he is able to help out.
But thats a good sign.
 
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United States Pckts Online
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#34
( This post was last modified: 06-26-2015, 09:41 PM by Pckts )

Here was what Mahammad said"It was reported by the vet which is 115 kg and its body length was 230 cm.Kind regardsMohammad"

 I guess you would have to speak with the Vet, but I don't want to push the point, because I appreciate the time they take to answer me. I doubt it weighed that much though, it just doesn't make any sense. His total length is 230cm which is right in the wheel house of larger leopards I posted on page 2, and the largest leopard weighed 70kg, so unless this leopard managed to fit another 45kg into a body of the same length, its not reasonable.
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Guatemala GuateGojira Offline
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#35
( This post was last modified: 06-27-2015, 12:05 PM by GuateGojira )

@Pckts, I have found a reviewed paper from 2014 with the weight of 115 kg actually recorded. I think that we have a new record from Persia! [img]images/smilies/lightbulb.gif[/img]

The document is from Dr Farhadinia, currently the top expert on Persian leopards. Interestingly, there is a longer leopard of 240 cm in record, but "only" weighed 91 kg! [img]images/smilies/exclamation.gif[/img]

I will present the document tomorrow, together with a comparative image, just like the ones that all of you love. [img]images/smilies/wink.gif[/img]
 
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United States Pckts Online
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#36
( This post was last modified: 06-27-2015, 08:03 PM by Pckts )

(06-27-2015, 12:04 PM)'GuateGojira' Wrote: @Pckts, I have found a reviewed paper from 2014 with the weight of 115 kg actually recorded. I think that we have a new record from Persia! [img]images/smilies/lightbulb.gif[/img]

The document is from Dr Farhadinia, currently the top expert on Persian leopards. Interestingly, there is a longer leopard of 240 cm in record, but "only" weighed 91 kg! [img]images/smilies/exclamation.gif[/img]

I will present the document tomorrow, together with a comparative image, just like the ones that all of you love. [img]images/smilies/wink.gif[/img]
 

 


Apparently the vet is the one who took the weight. 
It makes me really question these #'s though. Just comparing the leopard to the tiger and the fact that his length is seen, and the largest alleged weight with his total length is 70kg in the african leopards posted. It just hard for me to wrap my head around the idea that the leopard shown is 40kg larger than any leopard listed but with the same body length. 

Even the 240cm leopard at 91kg is a massive leopard. It would be very robust and solid I'm sure.

 
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Guatemala GuateGojira Offline
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#37
( This post was last modified: 06-27-2015, 11:30 PM by GuateGojira )

Largest wild leopard ever?

Recently, Dr Mohammad S. Farhadinia and his team wrote an excellent set of documents about the Persian leopard, a highly endangered subspecies of leopard that seems to be the largest member of the species (although this is still debatable).

The document that I will discuss is "Patterns of sexual dimorphism in the Persian Leopard (Panthera pardus saxicolor) and implications for sex differentiation" from 2014. This document present the first set of measurements from this population and suggest that in fact, it is among the largest on record.

Here is the table with the set of measurements:

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Were they get this data, here is the source:

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Finally, here is the paragraph about the record leopard of 115 kg:

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It is interesting that they accept the record and label it as "exceptional" and like "the largest" recorded in the entire range. Here is the page in the news letter No.7 of 2014:

*This image is copyright of its original author


From my point of view, the first and second picture do show a large specimen, probably about c.150 cm in head-body. The third picture is the problematic one, as it seems to be smaller than the previous views.

The comparison with the tiger is problematic, as the use of the news article has been proved incorrect in previous reports, specially by the fact that we don't know if the tiger was actually weighed, while in the case of the leopard, this seems to be the case. Check also that the leopard is a wild specimen while the tiger is from captivity, so the wild specimen most be arguably more massive than its counterpart from the zoo.

Now, it is possible that the leopard had some stomach content, but we can't be sure entirely. We most remember some cases of large weights recorded that are not entirely supported with the presented pictures, but in this case, the weight was corroborated by the Veterinary and accepted by the team of scientists, we have pictures (two of them showing a large animal) and even a total length of the specimen. I see (at this moment) no reason to not accept the record, although we most label it as "exceptional" as normally male leopards weight about 60-70 kg in most of the regions with specimens of 80-90 kg been big and over that entirely rare.

Now, as I have said, total length means nothing to me, apart from an estimation of its size, but what about the body length? It was taken over curves of between pegs? Well, we know that this leopards measure on average 221 cm and a maximum of 240 cm, which still fit in the range of the large leopard populations, like India and South Africa, but surpass all the other populations.

Dr Bahram H. Kiabi and his team presented a document in 2002 named "Population status of the Persian Leopard (Panthera pardus saxicolor Pocock, 1927) in Iran", here they present the first single measurements of male leopards with an index of tail/total length. Check the image:

*This image is copyright of its original author


An average of all the figures gives a number of 0.73, suggesting a head-body of c.155 cm for the largest male (total length of 213 cm). The problem is that when I applied this index to the largest male recorded by Dr Farhadinia (240 cm) it gives a head-body of c.175 cm! This number has been suggested for leopards in the past, but I still doubt about this figures. Based in the picture, the 115 kg male seems to be of 150 cm straight but if we use the index of 0.73 in its total length of 230 cm (reported by @Pckts) it gives a number of c.168 cm, still too exceptional for a leopard of the size of the one in the picture. The longest leopard measured in straight line that I am aware was a male of 155 cm from India (Athreya & Belsare, 2008), but apart from that, all the other males (African or Asian) on record are lower than that figure. That is why I found hard to believe in a figure of 168 cm for a leopard.

Maybe, those leopards were measured "over curves", giving a proper figure of 158 cm, using the difference of c.13 cm of between pegs-over curves recorded from Cooch Behar for leopards. Other thing are the sources used by Dr Farhadinia, which also include specimens investigated according with images. In the comparative image, a leopard of 175 cm in head-body looks like the largest jaguar recorded, and it should be very slim to weight only 90 kg.

Following the rules of my images, I will use the data as it is, but I will put a note stating that there is no information about how those leopards were measured (over curves or in straight line). I will contact Dr Farhadinia in order to know the method used for those leopards and if result that the figures were taken in straight line, we will provide a certain evidence that those leopards are in fact, the largest of the species.

In my next post, the comparative image, depending of the answer of Dr Farhadinia.

Greetings to all.
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Guatemala GuateGojira Offline
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#38
( This post was last modified: 06-28-2015, 12:07 AM by GuateGojira )

Let's add more to the controversy.

I searched in the internet for info about this large leopard and/or the incident of the capture and [font]euthanasia[/font]. I found these two articles, check it:

The moment of the capture:

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*This image is copyright of its original author



*This image is copyright of its original author



*This image is copyright of its original author


Link: http://theiranproject.com/blog/2014/01/0...ngle-iran/

As you can see, the leopard is a large one, with a large stomach which suggest that the leopard was lured to a bait or killed with its prey when he was eating. Its teeth are perfect and he has an amputation in its frontal right arm.

Now, check the pictures of the [font]euthanasia procedure[/font], just days after:

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*This image is copyright of its original author



*This image is copyright of its original author



*This image is copyright of its original author



*This image is copyright of its original author



*This image is copyright of its original author



*This image is copyright of its original author


Link: http://www.payvand.com/news/14/jan/1099.html

What happen here? This most be the same leopard, with the same injure in the frontal leg and in the back, but check it body stage, it is in the bones, it is very small and its teeth are broken. Is this the same leopard or is another case? Could someone check the spot pattern? [img]images/smilies/huh.gif[/img]

At first sight, they look like different animals, but maybe another poster, with a better eye can clarified this issue. If they are two different cases, then the pictures used in the Newsletter are incorrect, and probably the largest male from the first pictures is the male of 115 kg. But if they are the same leopard, it loose its condition incredible fast from the 5 to 14 of January of 2014.

What do you think guys?
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United States tigerluver Offline
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#39

I think they're the same, compare the left "eyebrow" marking. The poor creature's untimely death is horrible in its own right, but adding to the loss of his giant genes from the gene pool makes it worse.
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Guatemala GuateGojira Offline
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#40
( This post was last modified: 06-30-2015, 10:37 AM by GuateGojira )

Ok people, here is the comparison image and the size (body measurements) of the Persian leopard (Panthera pardus saxicolor):


*This image is copyright of its original author


The head-body length is based in 9 specimens, all measured in the flesh. Other specimens measured in stuffed animals or skins were discarded. Interestingly, the longest of the males was of 259 cm in the flesh and taking in count that the ratio of tail/total length is of 0.64, this specimen seems to be measured between pegs. However, as the total lengths in the image were taken from Farhadinia et al. 2014, I don't include it, just the head-body. In the future images of the exceptional specimens, it will be included, just like the weight of 115 kg for this subspecies.

In the image, the leopard seems too short for the 221 cm of average total length, but you most take in count that the animal is non-stretched. If you put it in straight line, the leopard in the image is slightly longer than the average figure, but this is because it had a very long tail.

The list of skulls include the large specimen from Golestan, correctly measured.

Greetings.
 
Note: Corrections has been made in the image. Please copy this last version. Greetings.
 
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United States Pckts Online
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#41
( This post was last modified: 06-30-2015, 12:03 AM by Pckts )

This dead 2 year old cub is said to be 85kg

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*This image is copyright of its original author

compared to this alleged 115kg leopard

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*This image is copyright of its original author




I'm sorry to keep posting but I think these images are great use of determing how large that leopard really is. A leopard at 90kg will be massive, 115kg would be a monster. I just still have such a hard time believing that a severly injured leopard reached such a huge weight while having normal body length and not looking particularly robust.
 
What I see in my eyes is this:
The leopard is more robust than the tiger but the tiger will be taller and longer and the tigers limbs are more robust than the leopards and the leopard is missing a paw as well.
It would be impossible for that leopard to be larger than the tiger I think.
 
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Norway Pantherinae Offline
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#42

I agree with @Pckts that can't be a 115 kg cat. 
I've seen darted leopards from South africa which is 60-70 kg looking bigger than this leopard, still an impressive animal, but more like 60-70 kg. 
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Australia Richardrli Offline
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#43

Yes I agree that it doesn't "look" that big, but what is the rational reason for not accepting it? I mean it's a figure given directly by a vet, a first hand source published in a scientific document. The Iranian organization responsible for the conservation of leopards in their country has measured and weighed leopards before and as far as I know there haven't been any problems with their measurements. Also, many animals have been weighed that "looked" smaller than their actual weight, and conversely many have "looked" bigger than their actual weight. For this individual, it might just be the former case.
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United States tigerluver Offline
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#44

Much of the community ignores the bone density factor when discarding claims of unusually heavy for their frame specimens. Bone density is still quite variable within species. No one has bothered studying bone density in morphological light resulting in this variable being overlooked.
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Guatemala GuateGojira Offline
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#45
( This post was last modified: 06-30-2015, 10:22 AM by GuateGojira )

Guys, interesting news! I have contacted Dr Farhadinia and he told me that the Persian leopards were measured "over curves". This would make an average Persian leopard up to c.210 cm and a maximum of c.230 cm, like I have foretell previously. It is also possible that the leopard of 259 cm was also measured in this way, although the ratio of tail/total length suggest otherwise.

If we correct all the data, the Persian leopards were of the same size than those of Southern Africa and slightly shorter than those of India, which seems to be the longest ones at this point. However, the body mass is strong point of this subspecies.

I am going to change (again) my image in order to show this new information.

Greetings.
 
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