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~~AndresVida~~ · 02-08-2022, 03:04 AM

(02-08-2022, 02:36 AM)GuateGojira Wrote: my be useful

They do and are very useful as always! Only problem is that we can't see the location of each of those 22 males.
So that's going go be very hard. Just wanted to do two different averages for these population. A northern average and a souther average. So see how much variation there's among them. Combined, they are like 65-66 kgish

Pckts · 02-08-2022, 03:28 AM

(02-08-2022, 03:04 AM)LoveAnimals Wrote:
(02-08-2022, 02:36 AM)GuateGojira Wrote: my be useful
They do and are very useful as always! Only problem is that we can't see the location of each of those 22 males.
So that's going go be very hard. Just wanted to do two different averages for these population. A northern average and a souther average. So see how much variation there's among them. Combined, they are like 65-66 kgish

For the North they'll be around 70kg "Mohammad Farhadinia"

The two largest ever captured according to Kambiz Baradarani
The 88kg Leopard from that Study "Who's said to be the largest Cat weighed" - was from Abbas Abad in Mazandaran Provice
The 86kg Male was from Golestan National Park

Both in the Caspian Hyrcanian Forests

"The heaviest adult male leopards that have been weighed and recorded by experts in the wild in Iran were all under 90 kg, between 75kg - 88kg"-Kambiz Baradarani

Generally speaking Persians will be the Longest in HBL and Shoulder height but not quite the heaviest in average weight but certainly up there with the heaviest. Anything over 70kg average with a decent sample size is top tier for Leopards.

Pckts · 02-08-2022, 03:37 AM

(02-08-2022, 03:02 AM)LoveAnimals Wrote:
(02-08-2022, 02:27 AM)Pckts Wrote: Vin Diesel was never weighed, at least nothing verified.
I'm sure once you posted on Modern weights and measurements of wild leopards a copied and pasted message from somewhere, where it said it was weighed before 84 kg, then there was a phrase of "he's a 97 kg man eater".

Where did you get those messages from? I've been looking on forums and apps like Facebook but nothing, was it deleted?

Anyway I'm not saying it's something verified, hence why I would say everywhere "Vin Diesel weighed 97 kg" in the same way I say "Mawenzi is 83 kg".
Thing I'm not of course doing, I would say "he was said to be..."
That's because it's nothing verified. It could be reliable when looking at him when in his prime. But as likely or reliable he could be, it's not verified.

The reason why I brought him up is because of the "at least 70 kg" male. Likewise, I said that automatically if you consider reliable that at least 70kg male that was just guess estimated at sight, you shouldn't find that unreliable Vin Diesel that was actually captured and collared by rangers (so it's likely that it was weighed aswll).
Whereas I'm sure that male was never ever captured. And still, at least 70 kgs means that 70 kg is a low estimate.
That's what least means. It would have said "at best" or at "max" if they were guess estimating it's upper estimate.

(02-08-2022, 02:27 AM)Pckts Wrote: Again, images mean little without dimensions. And if you're using the word "bloated" to describe one, that is pretty much saying it seems fat while the other has a more dense musculature.

Same reason why also the "at least 70 kg" male can be off as estimate. As it could probably weigh more. Same thing also when mentioning the 95 kg confirmed male that from a flattering angle looked like 60+kgish.
By the way, with bloated I mean with a very wide and enormous body frame. It was for the Mawenzi comparison, while Mawenzi from that image looked a bit of slender (talking about waists) for an 80+ pushing male, that male i posted below while comparing it to cougars it looks bloated in comparison, as it's belly and torso falls deeper and closer to the ground while compared to Mawenzi.
And yes, there might be a bit of fat because of the cold climates. And proportionally yes you're also right that there are also males that might have a more dense musculature when compared to Iranian males as well. In my opinion when it comes to musculature and build Aberdare leopards take the cake. They have very wide and round skulls compared to most leopard populations. I don't know your opinion about them, but they are very impressive. The fact that they don't even need fat accumulation to look enormous (still Iranian males are enormous and massive, with or without fat, but still) because of their tropical habitats.
IMO the largest African population roams in kenya highlands.

Vin Diesels claim was 2nd hand, no real weights were obtained and verified for him.
Nor was he collared, if he were collared we'd be able to obtain capture info far easier.
Lastly, he certainly doesn't look like a 90kg Leopard to me. In comparison, the male I mentioned was captured, collared and measured as well as compared to other males of similar dimensions with none reaching 80kg let alone 90kg.

*This image is copyright of its original author

Which "messages" are you talking about?
In regards to Mohammad Farhadinia and Kambiz Baraadarani?
I'm the one who posted the 88kg Leopard you posted, it was from the my discussions with them on IG.

~~AndresVida~~ · 02-08-2022, 03:54 AM

(02-08-2022, 03:28 AM)Pckts Wrote: For the North they'll be around 70kg "Mohammad Farhadinia"

Yeap I do already know that he said this, I'm the same guy who you spoke to on Carnivora as I'm "andreavitanza305" . Do you remember when you mentioned this and guessestimated Northern males to be around "mid to high 70s" on average? Personally I think around 70 kgs is a better estimate as mid to high 70s could be too close to Pantanal jaguaresses that do reach higher weights, although the idea of freak sized 100+ kg leopards is still possible as we are able to record approaching males of this sizes from African males that average less, let alone an hypothetical 70 kg average population.

Do you have data regarding the highest reliable shoulder height for these leopards taken on straight line without counting the paw? I guess it would be anywhere around 78 cm maybe. Some sites say 80+ cm but I think that's because it does include the paw. And that isn't of course a reliable methodology for measuring shoulder heights as well as those all 120+ cm lions and tigers.
I remember a 140 cm tall lion somewhere lol. Polar bear sized hell no that's inaccurate.

Pckts · 02-08-2022, 04:15 AM

(02-08-2022, 03:54 AM)LoveAnimals Wrote:
(02-08-2022, 03:28 AM)Pckts Wrote: For the North they'll be around 70kg "Mohammad Farhadinia"
Yeap I do already know that he said this, I'm the same guy who you spoke to on Carnivora as I'm "andreavitanza305" . Do you remember when you mentioned this and guessestimated Northern males to be around "mid to high 70s" on average? Personally I think around 70 kgs is a better estimate as mid to high 70s could be too close to Pantanal jaguaresses that do reach higher weights, although the idea of freak sized 100+ kg leopards is still possible as we are able to record approaching males of this sizes from African males that average less, let alone an hypothetical 70 kg average population.

Do you have data regarding the highest reliable shoulder height for these leopards taken on straight line without counting the paw? I guess it would be anywhere around 78 cm maybe. Some sites say 80+ cm but I think that's because it does include the paw. And that isn't of course a reliable methodology for measuring shoulder heights as well as those all 120+ cm lions and tigers.
I remember a 140 cm tall lion somewhere lol. Polar bear sized hell no that's inaccurate.

No unfortunately I don't, they aren't specific about the protocol in that way. Unfortunately these measurements have been an enigma as we haven't been able to get real information about them the same we we do Jaguars for instance. Since the measurements are 2nd hand the research paper doesn't elaborate. The mention of shoulder height and body length being exceptional in size was from Kambiz Baradarani. But as we both know, unless we compare apples to apples, those claims can't be verified.

GuateGojira · 02-08-2022, 04:24 AM

(02-08-2022, 03:54 AM)LoveAnimals Wrote: Do you have data regarding the highest reliable shoulder height for these leopards taken on straight line without counting the paw? I guess it would be anywhere around 78 cm maybe. Some sites say 80+ cm but I think that's because it does include the paw. And that isn't of course a reliable methodology for measuring shoulder heights as well as those all 120+ cm lions and tigers.
I remember a 140 cm tall lion somewhere lol. Polar bear sized hell no that's inaccurate.

I have a lot of data on Indian leopards, I can tell you that the tallest leopard measured "between pegs" was of 74 cm, the average that I got was of 66 cm.

We need to be carefull with records of leopards, specially those from Africa, after all is there were the figure of 190 cm for a head-body length of leopards (sic!) was created and perpetuated in the litterature, even in books like "Walkers Mammals fo the World" and modern cats books like "Wild Cats of the World" from Dr Sunquist and wife (2002) and Dr Hunter (2015). Rubish to be honest, specially because is repeated and nobody stop thinking that this figure is unreliable.

~~AndresVida~~ · 02-08-2022, 04:34 AM

(02-08-2022, 03:37 AM)Pckts Wrote: Lastly, he certainly doesn't look like a 90kg Leopard to me. In comparison, the male I mentioned was captured, collared and measured as well as compared to other males of similar dimensions with none reaching 80kg let alone 90kg.

Again, visual estimates can be way off. Just because you estimate it to not be close to be over 80 kg it doesn't mean it was not. Remember the persian leopard you said it looked nothing close to 100 kg (as 95 kg is close to 100 kg) while it actually WAS that large. So you should also be very Descartes-like when making estimates. Like still having some doubts because you know, visual estimates are tricky.

I will always use Mawenzi 83 kg as example because he's literally the perfect example for comparing male leopards.
Mawenzi is massive but has also a nice sized belly fold, without it this is his real physique.
He's rather lean and athletic to be a only 7 kgs far from 90 kgs right?

*This image is copyright of its original author

But still. He's a confirmed 80+ kg male

*This image is copyright of its original author

Now, we know that Vin diesel was allegedly "weighed when they removed its collar. Let's see how it looked in its prime

*This image is copyright of its original author

Now he DOES look comparable to 83 kg Mawenzi, at least to me. In some images, he also seems to be more massive especially the first ones. I'd say it's safe to estimate him at 80+ kg. Now you're free to estimate him the way you want. But you can't deny that he DOES compare to Mawenzi. Who is also pretty lean but still well over the average leopard.

(02-08-2022, 03:37 AM)Pckts Wrote: Nor was he collared, if he were collared we'd be able to obtain capture info far easier.

FYI, Vin Diesel was collared :
As far as I know, that's a collar

*This image is copyright of its original author

. And he looks pretty massive here aswell^
Mawenzi tier.

About the messages I was just referring to this your old post. Where did you get this info? And yes he was collared as I already said, there is literally his image of him walking close to a road with the collar being clearly visible so it's likely that he was first weighed when they added the collar and then when they removed it. Of course it's still not verified but it COULD be likely.

*This image is copyright of its original author

~~AndresVida~~ · 02-08-2022, 04:42 AM

(02-08-2022, 04:15 AM)Pckts Wrote: No unfortunately I don't, they aren't specific about the protocol in that way.

Sad how we lack data on the largest subspecies

~~AndresVida~~ · 02-08-2022, 04:47 AM

(02-08-2022, 04:24 AM)GuateGojira Wrote: gure of 190 cm for a head-body length of leopards (sic!) was created and perpetuated in the litterature, even in books like "Walkers Mammals fo the World" and modern cats books like "Wild Cats of the World" from Dr Sunquist and wife (2002) and Dr Hunter (2015).

Not to mention the Barbary lion-sized claims of leopards! sic!!
It's actually pretty sad of all of these measurements are either taken from measuring statched pelts (probably the most inaccurate method to ever exist, same method gave birth to the belief that Bernard wolves were 120 cm tall at the shoulder, that's about as high as an average interior grizzly bear and as high as a ngandong tiger. Gives you an idea of how inaccurate it is!) regarding head-body measurements and the "over the curves" methods regarding shoulder heights. I just hope we are gonna get more reliable ones in the future. But guessestimating is always interesting. In your opinion what's the highest SH for African leopards?

Twico5 · 02-08-2022, 04:48 AM

(02-08-2022, 03:37 AM)Pckts Wrote:
(02-08-2022, 03:02 AM)LoveAnimals Wrote:
(02-08-2022, 02:27 AM)Pckts Wrote: Vin Diesel was never weighed, at least nothing verified.
I'm sure once you posted on Modern weights and measurements of wild leopards a copied and pasted message from somewhere, where it said it was weighed before 84 kg, then there was a phrase of "he's a 97 kg man eater".

Where did you get those messages from? I've been looking on forums and apps like Facebook but nothing, was it deleted?

Anyway I'm not saying it's something verified, hence why I would say everywhere "Vin Diesel weighed 97 kg" in the same way I say "Mawenzi is 83 kg".
Thing I'm not of course doing, I would say "he was said to be..."
That's because it's nothing verified. It could be reliable when looking at him when in his prime. But as likely or reliable he could be, it's not verified.

The reason why I brought him up is because of the "at least 70 kg" male. Likewise, I said that automatically if you consider reliable that at least 70kg male that was just guess estimated at sight, you shouldn't find that unreliable Vin Diesel that was actually captured and collared by rangers (so it's likely that it was weighed aswll).
Whereas I'm sure that male was never ever captured. And still, at least 70 kgs means that 70 kg is a low estimate.
That's what least means. It would have said "at best" or at "max" if they were guess estimating it's upper estimate.

(02-08-2022, 02:27 AM)Pckts Wrote: Again, images mean little without dimensions. And if you're using the word "bloated" to describe one, that is pretty much saying it seems fat while the other has a more dense musculature.

Same reason why also the "at least 70 kg" male can be off as estimate. As it could probably weigh more. Same thing also when mentioning the 95 kg confirmed male that from a flattering angle looked like 60+kgish.
By the way, with bloated I mean with a very wide and enormous body frame. It was for the Mawenzi comparison, while Mawenzi from that image looked a bit of slender (talking about waists) for an 80+ pushing male, that male i posted below while comparing it to cougars it looks bloated in comparison, as it's belly and torso falls deeper and closer to the ground while compared to Mawenzi.
And yes, there might be a bit of fat because of the cold climates. And proportionally yes you're also right that there are also males that might have a more dense musculature when compared to Iranian males as well. In my opinion when it comes to musculature and build Aberdare leopards take the cake. They have very wide and round skulls compared to most leopard populations. I don't know your opinion about them, but they are very impressive. The fact that they don't even need fat accumulation to look enormous (still Iranian males are enormous and massive, with or without fat, but still) because of their tropical habitats.
IMO the largest African population roams in kenya highlands.
Vin Diesels claim was 2nd hand, no real weights were obtained and verified for him.
Nor was he collared, if he were collared we'd be able to obtain capture info far easier.
Lastly, he certainly doesn't look like a 90kg Leopard to me. In comparison, the male I mentioned was captured, collared and measured as well as compared to other males of similar dimensions with none reaching 80kg let alone 90kg.

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

Which "messages" are you talking about?
In regards to Mohammad Farhadinia and Kambiz Baraadarani?
I'm the one who posted the 88kg Leopard you posted, it was from the my discussions with them on IG.

You cannot estimate a leopard’s weight like that. He looks bulky in some pictures btw. Do you have any proof that he wasn’t collared? I believe shortridge posted a picture of him with a collar on a while back. There are also many claims of this ofc, that mbavala was weighed after his collar was removed. I get that we don’t have a chart that includes his measurements or a dm from a ranger but what is leading you to believe that he wasn’t weighed or collared at some poin?

Pckts · 02-08-2022, 04:51 AM

(02-08-2022, 04:34 AM)LoveAnimals Wrote:
(02-08-2022, 03:37 AM)Pckts Wrote: Lastly, he certainly doesn't look like a 90kg Leopard to me. In comparison, the male I mentioned was captured, collared and measured as well as compared to other males of similar dimensions with none reaching 80kg let alone 90kg.

Again, visual estimates can be way off. Just because you estimate it to not be close to be over 80 kg it doesn't mean it was not. Remember the persian leopard you said it looked nothing close to 100 kg (as 95 kg is close to 100 kg) while it actually WAS that large. So you should also be very Descartes-like when making estimates. Like still having some doubts because you know, visual estimates are tricky.

I will always use Mawenzi 83 kg as example because he's literally the perfect example for comparing male leopards.
Mawenzi is massive but has also a nice sized belly fold, without it this is his real physique.
He's rather lean and athletic to be a only 7 kgs far from 90 kgs right?

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

But still. He's a confirmed 80+ kg male

*This image is copyright of its original author

Now, we know that Vin diesel was allegedly "weighed when they removed its collar. Let's see how it looked in its prime

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

Now he DOES look comparable to 83 kg Mawenzi, at least to me. In some images, he also seems to be more massive especially the first ones. I'd say it's safe to estimate him at 80+ kg. Now you're free to estimate him the way you want. But you can't deny that he DOES compare to Mawenzi. Who is also pretty lean but still well over the average leopard.

(02-08-2022, 03:37 AM)Pckts Wrote: Nor was he collared, if he were collared we'd be able to obtain capture info far easier.
FYI, Vin Diesel was collared :
As far as I know, that's a collar

*This image is copyright of its original author

. And he looks pretty massive here aswell^
Mawenzi tier.

About the messages I was just referring to this your old post. Where did you get this info? And yes he was collared as I already said, there is literally his image of him walking close to a road with the collar being clearly visible so it's likely that he was first weighed when they added the collar and then when they removed it. Of course it's still not verified but it COULD be likely.

*This image is copyright of its original author

Spot patterns look a bit off between the two *Look directly beneath eye and go down*
Could be the camera resolution but they look different no?

*This image is copyright of its original author

but it's possible, regardless the weight claim is no different than the others who've claimed weights from 2nd hand sources that turned out to be false.
Also, if that is Vin Diesel that really shows you the difference when the dewlap is actually pulled tight compared to when it droops.
Also, he does look better when he's full bellied compared to the images I posted.

Quote:Again, visual estimates can be way off. Just because you estimate it to not be close to be over 80 kg it doesn't mean it was not. Remember the persian leopard you said it looked nothing close to 100 kg (as 95 kg is close to 100 kg) while it actually WAS that large. So you should also be very Descartes-like when making estimates. Like still having some doubts because you know, visual estimates are tricky.

Regardless of what was said about that Leopard, I will never buy his alleged weight. He didn't look that size then or now, he was reported multiple weights as well as disregarded by both Mohammad and Kambiz and his total length was shorter than the larger Persians used that all weighed less than 90kg. Shorter than the male M3 I posted btw, just for reference.

Mawenzi is a big and beautiful cat, he looks large no matter when you see him with a solid physique. More impressive to see an 80kg African/Indian Leopard than Persian IMO, just because the cold weather forces the cat to have more fat. It's much the same as comparing Amur to Bengals in my book.

Twico5 · 02-08-2022, 04:52 AM

Oh wait didn’t see @"LoveAnimals" post yeah.

~~Styx38~~ · 02-08-2022, 04:56 AM

(02-07-2022, 11:21 PM)GuateGojira Wrote:
(02-06-2022, 08:04 PM)LoveAnimals Wrote: These are the giant males that roam in Northern Iran. I've never seen leopards with so massive and huge bodies with pinheads like in these males.
I guess that these could be some real 100+ kg leopards.

https://imgur.com/t/animals/akP2h2G.gif

https://imgur.com/t/predator/uXtaU6Q.gif

I can't see the images, it says that do not exist anymore.

However I am agree with Pckt, with no referece to scale, any leopard (or any animal, actually) can be of the weight and size that we want, and human mind is very tricky. From what I know, there are very few leopards over 90 kg, most are about 50 - 70 kg, depending of the population. Also, Persian leopards are flufy and may be estimated to have bigger weights than the real ones.

The other 90+ kg Leopards were reported to be from Namibia.

There was a 96 kg Leopard from Valencia (Brain 1983) and a 95 kg Leopard from the Khomas region (Richmond-Coggan 2019).

Considering there were two 90+ kg specimens found in completely different times of the years in Africa compared to 3/4 90+ kg Leopards found in Iran, would this mean that Persians may also have the highest number of max sized wild Leopards in the world?

~~AndresVida~~ · 02-08-2022, 05:22 AM

(02-08-2022, 04:51 AM)Pckts Wrote: Spot patterns look a bit off between the two *Look directly beneath eye and go down*
Could be the camera resolution but they look different no?

Oh here it comes my favorite hobby. Identifying leopards based on spot pattern! Yes. They do compare. It's just that it's in different positions and the skin is stretched because of the collar in the first image and it's more floppy in the second one as there's no collar :

*This image is copyright of its original author

It's Vin Diesel in both, there's no bigger evidence than this.

I also compared its body spots to other images of him. They do compare.

*This image is copyright of its original author

The most easily recognizable ones are that large rosette on its waist with a little spot inside of it. Making it a jaguar-like rosette. And the other one is the very visible amount of dots aligned on its front limb that create a vertical stripe.

(02-08-2022, 04:51 AM)Pckts Wrote: regardless the weight claim is no different than the others who've claimed weights from 2nd hand sources that turned out to be false.

This is a subjective estimate. I could say the same about hunting records. Hunting records are prone to exagerrate and from the same sources of 400 kg siberian tigers where were reliable hunting record. So just if some claims are prone to exagerrate (we are humans... That's our nature lol) doesn't mean that ALL claims are prone to exagerrate.

(02-08-2022, 04:51 AM)Pckts Wrote: Also, he does look better when he's full bellied compared to the images I posted

No evidence that it was full belly. That was in his prime and the other ones past his prime. This is his last sighting :

*This image is copyright of its original author

Old and skinny, before death. So the image you posted first don't depict him in his prime. He does compare to Mawenzi in his prime, if not even larger. Oh well. This is just subjective as we'll never know

(02-08-2022, 04:51 AM)Pckts Wrote: He didn't look that size then or now, he was reported multiple weights as well as disregarded by both Mohammad and Kambiz and his total length was shorter than the larger

GuateGojira · 02-08-2022, 05:30 AM

(02-08-2022, 04:47 AM)LoveAnimals Wrote: In your opinion what's the highest SH for African leopards?

I don't see any significant difference between the Indian and the African leopards overall. I think, and is only a personal estimation that may be corrected, that the shoulder height for a large African male, depending of its location, can be about 75 cm, as jaguars, which are bigger reach just around 80 cm. I have a steel tape with me in this moment and I can tell you that 75-80 cm is already big, as tall as some Sunda tigers!

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