There is a world somewhere between reality and fiction. Although ignored by many, it is very real and so are those living in it. This forum is about the natural world. Here, wild animals will be heard and respected. The forum offers a glimpse into an unknown world as well as a room with a view on the present and the future. Anyone able to speak on behalf of those living in the emerald forest and the deep blue sea is invited to join.
11-02-2022, 03:35 AM( This post was last modified: 11-02-2022, 05:10 PM by Cath2020 )
The two flanking the middle one look almost like twins. Those might be the younger two according to one of the reports. They are still so young! The middle one is slightly taller and lighter in color.
Has it been at least a month since their mother separated from them? Around that amount of time. We are all going to be on edge with each sighting! Fingers crossed!
Perhaps they should suggest culling the Mhangeni pride, Ximhungwe pride PCmales coalition, Skorro and every Hyena in the reserve to help the Othawas.
While they are at it, suggest culling the Othawa pride aswell as they pose a eisk to leopards, cheetah and countless of prey animals aswell.
Its ridiculous, but it should get the point across.
11-03-2022, 07:43 PM( This post was last modified: 11-03-2022, 07:51 PM by Tr1x24 )
(11-03-2022, 07:33 PM)Duco Ndona Wrote: Perhaps they should suggest culling the Mhangeni pride, Ximhungwe pride PCmales coalition, Skorro and every Hyena in the reserve to help the Othawas.
While they are at it, suggest culling the Othawa pride aswell as they pose a eisk to leopards, cheetah and countless of prey animals aswell.
Its ridiculous, but it should get the point across.
Dont like this either, if policy is to not intervene if its natural cause, then it should apply to all animals and lions.
Help every lion or help none..
Helping Sassy and subs now, might "screw" Ximhungwe and Gingerella in future, are Othawas more worth then them?
Also, how many more other animals will be affected by this in future?
So what does it mean? Will they intervene or not? or just monitor the situation and do nothing? at this point, I am happy as long as they can save Othawa pride.
11-03-2022, 07:53 PM( This post was last modified: 11-03-2022, 08:00 PM by BorntobeWild )
(11-03-2022, 07:43 PM)Tr1x24 Wrote:
(11-03-2022, 07:33 PM)Duco Ndona Wrote: Perhaps they should suggest culling the Mhangeni pride, Ximhungwe pride PCmales coalition, Skorro and every Hyena in the reserve to help the Othawas.
While they are at it, suggest culling the Othawa pride aswell as they pose a eisk to leopards, cheetah and countless of prey animals aswell.
Its ridiculous, but it should get the point across.
Dont like this either, if policy is to not intervene if its natural cause, then it should apply to all animals and lions.
Help every lion or help none..
Helping Sassy and subs now, might "screw" Ximhungwe and Gingerella in future, are Othawas more worth then them?
Also, how many more other animals will be affected by this in future?
Its a domino effect.
Better leave nature to itself..
Any single mum with cubs like this should get help.
The intervention policy debates I know are quite contentious. I never publicly comment because it’s seldom fruitful and only incites fights
All I would say in this case is that the possible extinction of a Pride May play into the decision of the local managers.
These lions for all practical purposes are sort of their livelihood in many ways. Losing a Pride has an impact to their economy. Yes, it’s very likely other lions simply follow and come into there,,,,,but do we really know how long? How many?
I’m not saying what’s right or wrong….just providing feedback that it isn’t always (never has really been) clear.
(11-03-2022, 07:51 PM)东方琳琅STD Wrote: So what does it mean? Will they intervene or not? or just monitor the situation and do nothing? at this point, I am happy as long as they can save Othawa pride.
Its says, they will intervene if it will be nesccesery, necessary in this context prob means life threatning situation.
(11-03-2022, 07:53 PM)东方琳琅STD Wrote: Any single mum with cubs like this should get help.
Problem with this is, for example:
Without intervening Sassy dies, and her 3 subs dies, but with intervening and helping them they survive.
In a 1-2 years or so, 3 subs grown to adulthood, thats a pride of 4 adult females now, they attack Ximhungwe/Gingerella and their cubs, as they overpower them 4 to 2 now, they kill lets say Ximhungwe female and all their cubs.. Who is to blame now?
And how many more other animals will lose life to Othawas because humans help them?
Do you understand?
Why is life of Othawas more worth then life of others, because helping Othawas means killing other animals, who would live if Othawas didn't get help..
Because of that im against intervene policy, which Kruger mostly doesnt have.
Masai Mara has it, and i think its not great..they help male lion who was attacked by invading coalitions, so that lion can recover and kill that invading lion (it happened not long ago), where is the justice for that killed male lion? He mortaly wound his enemy, but that male was saved by humans, and then he recovered and with his partners killed him.. Thats absurd..
And this is not "saving lions because their numbers shrink", because by saving lions you overpopulate their population without expanding their space to live, meaning more human-lion conflict's and more lions killing each others because there is no space, also more lions in the area, means less food, less "pray" animals, meaning more deaths by starvation.
You are not saving them, you are killing them even more over longer period of time.. But yea, thats another topic..
11-03-2022, 08:40 PM( This post was last modified: 11-03-2022, 08:42 PM by BorntobeWild )
(11-03-2022, 08:22 PM)Tr1x24 Wrote:
(11-03-2022, 07:51 PM)东方琳琅STD Wrote: So what does it mean? Will they intervene or not? or just monitor the situation and do nothing? at this point, I am happy as long as they can save Othawa pride.
Its says, they will intervene if it will be nesccesery, necessary in this context prob means life threatning situation.
(11-03-2022, 07:53 PM)东方琳琅STD Wrote: Any single mum with cubs like this should get help.
Problem with this is, for example:
Without intervening Sassy dies, and her 3 subs dies, but with intervening and helping them they survive.
In a 1-2 years or so, 3 subs grown to adulthood, thats a pride of 4 adult females now, they attack Ximhungwe/Gingerella and their cubs, as they overpower them 4 to 2 now, they kill lets say Ximhungwe female and all their cubs.. Who is to blame now?
And how many more other animals will lose life to Othawas because humans help them?
Do you understand?
Why is life of Othawas more worth then life of others, because helping Othawas means killing other animals, who would live if Othawas didn't get help..
Because of that im against intervene policy, which Kruger mostly doesnt have.
Masai Mara has it, and i think its not great..they help male lion who was attacked by invading coalitions, so that lion can recover and kill that invading lion (it happened not long ago), where is the justice for that killed male lion? He mortaly wound his enemy, but that male was saved by humans, and then he recovered and with his partners killed him.. Thats absurd..
And this is not "saving lions because their numbers shrink", because by saving lions you overpopulate their population without expanding their space to live, meaning more human-lion conflict's and more lions killing each others because there is no space, also more lions in the area, means less food, less "pray" animals, meaning more deaths by starvation.
You are not saving them, you are killing them even more over longer period of time.. But yea, thats another topic..
Thank you for replying to me. I know. I am just so depressed to see Sassy and her three girls wandering around without any help. I keep telling myself if there is a camera drawing all our attention to a buffalo or impala herd, they might be the ones who need the most help. Natural can be so cruel.
If they are saved by an intervention it would be done for economic and PR reasons, no matter how veiled it would be. The only case where intervention would not have an domino effect, at least from lion dynamics, actually also a case of pride extinction would be removing the last Sparta pride member, the lone sub-adult/cub female, who was a sitting duck since suddenly becoming orphan due to injury related demise of her mother. It was clear she is going to die/disappear and it culd be a rather slow process unless hyenas or something else kills her quickly. So she was already unimpactful on lion dynamics for good and removing her to a sanctuary or conservation captive breeding programme (ideally out of the country) would just mean one less cadavre of resources for the system nad perhaps survival of few small vertebrates or invertebrates that she could manage to catch.
This is a different situation as intervention could lead to remaining Othawas having a future (something that was not reasonably possible for Sparta youngster) and that future would be at the expense of someone else, even if indirectly by not vacanting space and posssibilities any newcomers could thrive due to later. If it would be a rarer animal, facing extinction much more likely, like say wild dogs, then it is another story, although any help to such species is usually limited by the lack of suitable habitat and often ongoing habitat loss. Extinction of a pride is natural and what is lost is just story continuation, legacy and subsequent money from the attention such known individuals bring. When you manage a habitat, ecosystem, you have moral obligation not to play favourites and certainly omit actions that could have, perhaps unforeseen impact, for selfish reasons. That's what Masai Mara fails at.
I had to leave the Othawa Facebook page. It’s a toxic cesspit of contradiction and emotion. For example, the moderators profile picture is a warning not to give location details of where the lions are located, but in literally every single post she does, she writes the location… ??♂️ But worse is the over the top emotion and the nastiness, towards rangers and guests who basically provide them with all their information. They even get angry at other lions. Being in that group totally taught me not to get attached to specific lions, now I don’t see any lion more special than any other. All this stuff about bloodlines is nonsense, why are bloodlines important in lions but not us humans, or pretty much any other creature? Now, they want intervention because of sassy, but they also complain that the area is overpopulated… honestly, I think these people just want these lions in a zoo. As for sassy, I’m hoping one meal changes everything and I hope she gets it
It is a pretty good group. Most of the other animal pages are either death or weeks behind on reporting. But this group is often just as fast if not faster than this site even.
But I have to agree. A downside of being around people that love these lions a lot is that bad news is generally not handled well.
But in time you learn to see them for what they are, just grieving people.
I really wish they stopped badmouthing the reserves etc though.
