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Orcas killing fully grown adult Great White Sharks
Orcas killing fully grown adult Great White Sharks
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Orcas killing fully grown adult Great White Sharks
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 (08-15-2019, 08:19 PM)Megalodon Wrote: @Rishi We don't do beliefs & point-of-views here friend. We deal with facts, statistics & observations. If the post contains hypothetical & unconfirmed wishful thinkings with not much direct evidence, like these, then Mods delete the whole post outright (same for other unacceptable content). You were given a pass for being a new member... & your idea having merit. Explanation: Quote:For example, in Russia, tigers fight, hunt and kill larger Brown bears. If the size theory that your suggesting is true, then tigers would not hunt another larger predator as powerful as a Brown bear. But the reality is that they do, and do so successfully most of the time. Incorrect. There's been some semi-confirmed cases, brown bears would still be the safer bet. Quote:...the white shark also possesses certain physical attributes that can easily help it overcome an Orca in a head-on battle. In fact, in a head-on battle - the shark possesses the more important and vital advantages over an Orca, like teeth, jaws and durability. Hardly enough to negate 2-4 tons of weight advantage, almost double, & Orcas' jaws would still kill just as well. Plus there is the issue of sharks blacking out if half for too long. Orcas are much much smarter too, equally fast. Only scenario where a Whitey is fairly likely to prevail is if it initiates an ambush on the lone Orca. Quote:Here's the facts that you never acknowledged in my first post: Not tested nor observed facts. Just possibilities. Quote:And Great whites don't struggle with Dolphins. Who told you that?...White sharks will readily predate on full-grown adult Dolphins, Porpoises and even small whales. Great whites even habitually attack and kill giant Bull elephant seals which can weigh anywhere from 2 - 3 tonnes. As heavy as the shark itself. The largest prey I've ever seen a LONE Orca kill is an adult fur seal. Thats nothing. White sharks, single-handedly, hunt and kill FAR LARGER and more dangerous prey than a lone Orca does. This part is better. In future, propose the possibility with as much neutral observation data as possible (people can Google, so cherry-picked selective information won't help your case). 
Oh yes, I forgot that dolphin part, but now when I read last posting of @Rishi I remembered. I wrote about dolphins because of this in posting of @
"An Orca is literally a giant DOLPHIN (Cetacean) which has extremely sensitive skin thats very susceptible to severe damage by the sharks jaws." I found that a bit odd, like dolphin would be in some way bad thing, while they are agile, fast and smart. And when I wrote, that there are observations how sharks are uncomfortable with them, I didn´t mean great white shark particularly. There are just some observations how they make sharks uneasy, even though they are smaller. That was tested for instance in one episode of tv-show Mythbusters. Not the most scientific source but that was also minor thing in that posting of mine :) Anyway my point was it, that when small dolphins can intimidate bigger sharks, than dolphins are, it feels quite logical, that GIANT DOLPHIN intimidates easily all sharks  I simply didn´t like to see dolphin mentioned like it would be something bad. That is how it looked like for me. Dolphins are, imo, amazing animals and earned a lot of respect. Especially from people. Not many water mammals are known to save lives of people, who have been in big trouble.  Quote:Then there is this: My point exactly. This was a case of a full-grown ADULT female Orca that killed a very small 10 ft JUVENILE white shark. How does this prove anything? If anything, it only confirms what I said, that there's not a single case ever recorded of a lone Orca attacking an adult Great white shark. Even Dr Ingrid Visser - who's the worlds No.1 top leading Orca expert/authority - stated that when Orca's hunt even the small species of sharks, they're VERY CAUTIOUS and careful about how they do it, because they know just one bite from even a small sharks jaws, can cause bad damage. Now imagine the huge Great whites jaws. Ingrid Visser has observed more Orca predation on sharks than anyone on earth. @Rishi Quote:We don't do beliefs & point-of-views here friend. We deal with facts, statistics & observations. Yeah, I am stating the facts actually. Its a confirmed fact that there's not a single account ever recorded, of a lone Orca even attacking an adult white shark, let alone killing one. Quote:You were given a pass for being a new member... & your idea having merit. Well thanks, at least you acknowledged my idea had merit. Quote:Incorrect. There's been some semi-confirmed cases, brown bears would still be the safer bet. No in fact, your incorrect here. There are CONFIRMED cases of tigers killing large Brown bears. They're known for this. - This has also been stated by undisputed Russian authorities/biologists. And according to YOU, the Brown bear will be the safer bet. Looking at the evidence and statistics, the tiger wins most head-on fights against Brown bears. The tiger is the predator and the Brown bear is the prey. I have the evidence and accounts if you want to see it?...But I'm not here to discuss tigers & bears. Quote:Hardly enough to negate 2-4 tons of weight advantage, almost double, & Orcas' jaws would still kill just as well. Plus there is the issue of sharks blacking out if half for too long. Well, your entitled to your own opinion and I have no problem with that. However, you're completely wrong about the Orca's jaws killing just as good as the Great whites. The Orca's teeth/jaws are designed more for gripping the prey, not tearing out flesh. A white shark has huge serrated knives in its mouth - over 300 of them - which are perfectly designed to tear out huge chunks off flesh with ease. They're specifically designed for this. These jaws....  *This image is copyright of its original author Are much inferior to these jaws...  *This image is copyright of its original author A white sharks jaws literally jump out of its mouth, allowing it to take a much bigger bite out of an animal. - The Orca grips, tugs and then tears, and the Great white's jaws easily tear off a huge chunk of meat/flesh with one single bite! - Thats far more devastating. Quote:Not tested nor observed facts. Just possibilities. Actually Rishi, it is an observed fact by the worlds top leading Orca expert; Dr Ingrid Visser, who's witnessed tons of predations. And yes, Orca's only dominate over Great whites because they run in packs. I've never seen nor heard of a lone Orca ever attacking any huge animal, anywhere near 2 tonnes, like white sharks habitually hunt and kill. Orca's rely heavily on cooperation when hunting. This is what makes them intelligent, they know how to get the upper-hand over Great whites using the strength in numbers. And again, just so everyone knows....I'm not here to have a heated debate or flame-war with anyone, I'm here just to give my point of view on this topic, thats it. (08-15-2019, 11:19 PM)Shadow Wrote: Oh yes, I forgot that dolphin part, but now when I read last posting of @Rishi I remembered. I wrote about dolphins because of this in posting of @ I never meant any insult to Dolphins, they are amazing and super-intelligent creatures. But they even get killed by smaller species of sharks such as tiger sharks and Bull sharks. Here's a case: A 3.5 metre shark (Report states most probably a Tiger shark) killed an adult Dolphin without hesitation, despite the Dolphin being with its pod! "At first the pod of dolphins looked like any other but closer inspection revealed a straggler with a terrible bite out of its back and a shark in close pursuit. The dolphins initially circled their injured mate but as the shark moved in and the injured animal grew weaker they scattered. After a few slow, wide circles the shark lunged, tearing another chunk of flesh from just above the dolphin’s tail."  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author The Pod was there, but the shark still attacked and slaughtered the Dolphin:  *This image is copyright of its original author https://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/nsw/monster-sharks-brutal-attack-on-dolphin-at-newcastles-burwood-beach/news-story/3b667241218d29cca60d22e449489a6d It was the pod of Dolphins that got scared, intimidated and fled from a single 3.5 metre shark. Sharks will readily attack and kill full-grown Dolphins.
About #33 posting of @
First that tiger-brown bear issue has been discussed many times, your claims aren´t anything new, this issue has been discussed countless times and all cases are known here. I wrote what I wrote knowing all what you could bring on table in that and Rishi knows also, should I say too well all what there is. So for me that tiger-brown bear claim of yours proves nothing and it is really worn out topic, same old sources recycled countless times. So no need to do that again. Then what comes to 10 feet great white shark. Male great whites aren´t so big, when adult, 10-13 feet. But if you missed it, it was one orca making an attack and killing a shark. My point was to show to you, that your claim, that orcas hunt great white sharks only in groups is controversial. They seem to do those attacks alone and in pods. And that sized great white shark could have been adult easily. Not all great white sharks are 20 feet, that demands an older female to reach such measurement. It is quite difficult for orcas to attack that big sharks, when finding one can be like winning in lottery for us :) More interesting topic, which wouldn´t be only hypothetical would be, imo, shark-dolphin interactions. Not much to talk about orcas and great white sharks, when all observations and studies point out, that there is no contest. (08-16-2019, 05:14 AM)Shadow Wrote: About #33 posting of @ 1) I guarantee you guys, I can show you data and accounts of tigers killing Brown bears that you've never seen before. I have plenty of scientific data/studies which shows that in some months, bears make up a LARGE SIGNIFICANT portion of the tigers diet. Primarily in the summer months. In fact, one male tiger was even observed and documented to habitually kill and eat Brown bears more than anything else during the summer months. Summer is the time when bears are at their largest and strongest, and that still doesn't stop the tiger from hunting them. If you wanna see the accounts/studies, then I can post them if you want?... Also, its not a "Tiger-Brown bear claim" of mine. What I stated is an established FACT. I have the evidence and accounts. I'm not just making empty claims. 2) There's no way a small 9 - 10ft white shark is a full-grown adult. I've seen countless documentaries, where huge male white sharks, up to 18 ft have been observed and filmed. (Slash is one example) The shark from the infamous Farallons incident was a juvenile Great white, not an adult. I've seen it stated in a documentary referring to that specific case. On top of that, the Orca ambushed it. Quote:Not much to talk about orcas and great white sharks, when all observations and studies point out, that there is no contest. Of course there's no contest, because Orca's have a huge advantage when travelling and hunting cooperatively in pods. - Their called the "Wolves of the Sea" for a good reason. And Shadow, I'm glad you ain't getting triggered or annoyed. At the end of the day, we all have our opinions. I just see it this way very clearly to me, when I observe the facts and accounts. A forum is meant for discussions like this.  (08-16-2019, 01:01 AM)Megalodon Wrote:For clarification purposes Orcas, are known as the " wolves of the sea " because they hunt the largest animals in the world. Blue whales, Grey whales and Sperm whales.Quote:Then there is this: All creatures large and small are on the menu. No sharks eat Killer whales, but Killer whales obviously eat all sharks. Game, set, match. These are facts (08-16-2019, 08:35 AM)chaos Wrote: For clarification purposes Orcas, are known as the " wolves of the sea " because they hunt the largest animals in the world. Blue whales, Grey whales and Sperm whales. No, he's saying that Orcas only do it in packs... their lone hunts comprise of smaller kills. Size of the larger prey compared to the predator's own, is apparently higher fo the sharks. (08-16-2019, 07:21 AM)Megalodon Wrote: 1) I guarantee you guys, I can show you data and accounts of tigers killing Brown bears that you've never seen before. I have plenty of scientific data/studies which shows that in some months, bears make up a LARGE SIGNIFICANT portion of the tigers diet. Primarily in the summer months. In fact, one male tiger was even observed and documented to habitually kill and eat Brown bears more than anything else during the summer months. Summer is the time when bears are at their largest and strongest, and that still doesn't stop the tiger from hunting them. If you wanna see the accounts/studies, then I can post them if you want?... That'd be great. Please present said evidence (not this thread)... but until then, hold the claims. Now let me jot down your main arguments:
Quote:Even Dr Ingrid Visser - who's the worlds No.1 top leading Orca expert/authority - stated that when Orca's hunt even the small species of sharks, they're VERY CAUTIOUS and careful about how they do it, because they know just one bite from even a small sharks jaws, can cause bad damage. Goes without saying, given their more tender skin. (08-16-2019, 07:21 AM)Megalodon Wrote:(08-16-2019, 05:14 AM)Shadow Wrote: About #33 posting of @ As said, you're making controversial claims and trying to make them look like not controversial. In that you aren´t successful. That should be clear now. And did you notice what you wrote... "Orca ambushed it"... well, isn´t that the case really there, orcas can hunt in groups with multiple strategies depending of prey. Then as you said, it can use ambush and take down for instance a great white shark alone. Impressive to see how intelligent predator orca is. When there is no pod nearby, it takes a kill alone. When you claim, that this specific great white shark was juvenile and then you say, that you have seen it in documentary. Put your cards on the table then, in which documentary? I have seen several articles about that case and not a single one said anything about juvenile great white shark. Male sharks are even as adults 3-4 meters long, that´s it. Estimation about 3 meters means, that it could have been a bit more or less. If less, then maybe juvenile, but if at least 3 meters or more, it is the size of an adult male. What comes to tigers and bears, I am not interested, I´m 100% sure, that I have seen all what you are referring in your claims. And @Rishi already said about that. But what comes to these animals (orca and great white shark), when you make a claim, that some specific animal was juvenile, then prove it. If you are only upset, because it wasn´t a big female shark, that is another thing. If you can´t prove it, then at least dig up that marine biologist, who thinks, that it was juvenile. You are free to have your opinions, but when you start to make strong claims, then you should have something concrete to back up. Now you have proven just, that you are kind of oblivious to how controversial claims you make. You even have contradiction in your own claims. First orcas hunt only in pods, then when one orca kills a shark alone, you try to undermine it by saying, that it was ambush attack :) Do you notice now? So we have to count out all evidence about orcas hunting alone, because those cases are unfair in some way? (08-16-2019, 01:01 AM)Megalodon Wrote:Quote:Then there is this: The pictures you posted are a bit misleading. Orcas are much larger, hence if they were scaled to accurate proportions, the bite radius would appear much more even. Granted, GW's have very impressive dentition, but Orcas are no slouch in that department. In another thread, I believe it was strongest bites - the Orcas bite force was estimated at 19,000 psi, which would put it in T-Rex territory. Intelligence, is by a country mile, in favor of the Orca. They have learned how to approach and overcome issues in tackling large and/or dangerous prey. I firmly stand by my opinion that Orcas are clearly the oceans apex predator.
@Rishi
Quote:That'd be great. Please present said evidence (not this thread)... but until then, hold the claims. Ok, you tell me when to post the evidence I have, and I'll do it. @Shadow Quote:As said, you're making controversial claims and trying to make them look like not controversial. In that you aren´t successful. That should be clear now. A lone Great white can easily do the same thing and ambush and kill a lone Orca. (Especially using that devastating breach technique) - Even Rishi agreed with that. Quote:When you claim, that this specific great white shark was juvenile and then you say, that you have seen it in documentary. Put your cards on the table then, in which documentary? I have seen several articles about that case and not a single one said anything about juvenile great white shark. Male sharks are even as adults 3-4 meters long, that´s it. Estimation about 3 meters means, that it could have been a bit more or less. If less, then maybe juvenile, but if at least 3 meters or more, it is the size of an adult male. I will find those reports where it stated that the shark was a juvenile. In some reports, it even states the shark was only 9 ft. When I find them, I'll definitely post it. Just wait. Quote:What comes to tigers and bears, I am not interested, I´m 100% sure, that I have seen all what you are referring in your claims. And @Rishi already said about that. But what comes to these animals (orca and great white shark), when you make a claim, that some specific animal was juvenile, then prove it. If you are only upset, because it wasn´t a big female shark, that is another thing. If you can´t prove it, then at least dig up that marine biologist, who thinks, that it was juvenile. How are you "100% sure" you've seen all my tiger killing bear data?? Now thats a big claim. You don't know me, and you don't know the research I've done on that topic, so how do you know then? Like I said before, its a FACT that tigers do hunt and kill larger Brown bears, their known for this. I have the accounts. I will certainly post it soon. And please, stop saying its just my "claims"...I'm not claiming anything about tigers vs bears. Everything I said is an established fact, period. I can easily prove it, and will. Quote:You even have contradiction in your own claims. First orcas hunt only in pods, then when one orca kills a shark alone, you try to undermine it by saying, that it was ambush attack :) Do you notice now? So we have to count out all evidence about orcas hunting alone, because those cases are unfair in some way? Again you totally missed my point. The account you posted of the adult Orca killing that small shark, was not a predation. The Orca attacked that shark out of PROTECTION for its baby. A predation is a totally different scenario. I never once claimed that a lone Orca would never attack a Great white in order to protect its young. When did I ever say that or even imply that?... My point from the very beginning was that a lone Orca would never go out of its way to actually predate an adult Great white for FOOD consumption. Like how tigers will deliberately hunt, kill and eat adult Brown bears. There's a difference. Again, that was not a predation, but an attack to protect her young from the shark. So I never contradicted myself. You just misunderstood what I said. @chaos Quote:The pictures you posted are a bit misleading. Orcas are much larger, hence if they were scaled to accurate proportions, the bite radius would appear much more even No, an Orca cannot gape its jaws as much as a Great whites, fact. A Great whites jaws literally jumps out of its mouth, allowing it to take much bigger bites. When it comes to teeth, there's absolutely NO COMPARISON whatsoever. The white shark has the most fearsome and deadliest teeth than any other animal on this planet. You simply can never compare a Cetacean's teeth to a predatory shark. The Orca is completely outclassed by the shark in this regard. Quote:They have learned how to approach and overcome issues in tackling large and/or dangerous prey. Yeah, they have learned to overcome issues in tackling large, dangerous prey using the strength in numbers! - Huge difference. A white shark single-handedly hunts and kills gigantic Bull elephant seals, (2 - 3 tonnes) small whales, Dolphins, Porpoises etc....and have even been documented to hunt and kill giant Squid at around 4,000 ft depth. Now please tell me, how on earth does a lone Orca even compare to the predatory prowess of the white shark?? Whats the largest prey a lone Orca takes on? - And then compare it to the Great whites killing prowess, and you'll truly see who's way more impressive. - The Orca is completely outclassed by the shark in this regard too. Quote:I firmly stand by my opinion that Orcas are clearly the oceans apex predator. I never have and never will deny the fact that the Orca is the oceans apex predator. My argument is to why they are, and how they dominate, and thats because they travel and hunt in pods. This is a massive advantage for them. Even marine biologists have stated this. Can you imagine if Great white sharks also hunted in packs? That would be insane.
This video show some sharks killed by orcas in South Africa. Quite big sharks.
A great white shark being removed from a beach in South Africa. (Marine Dynamics)  *This image is copyright of its original author The examination of one of the great whites begins. The incision under the pectoral fin was made by the orca. Photograph: Dyer Island Conservation Trust, Michelle Wcisel  *This image is copyright of its original author
(08-16-2019, 11:49 PM)Megalodon Wrote: @Rishi Ideally before you make any claim... ever. Quote:@Shadow Did I? In the previous post I asked for evidence & examples to back up several of your "FACT"s... You haven't yet. Publishing of this post will be withheld until then. (08-17-2019, 05:50 AM)Rishi Wrote:(08-16-2019, 11:49 PM)Megalodon Wrote: @Rishi Quote: I never claimed this as a "FACT" thats my opinion and I firmly believe it, as size is not everything in nature, there's many, many examples of predators overcoming a huge size disadvantage. You know this too. Quote: This fact has been stated numerous times by marine biologists - including Dr Ingrid Visser - who's the worlds leading Orca expert. I seriously suggest you start watching some documentaries on marine animals/or Orca's and sharks. Another example is the lack of any accounts of a lone Orca tackling a large, formidable prey item, single-handedly. Clear observations have confirmed that this is exclusively done cooperatively. As far as a single large white shark being more than a match for a single Orca, thats my opinion. Logic tells me that a Great white physically is better built for a head-on battle. Not a large cetacean with extremely sensitive, soft skin with much inferior jaws and teeth. Quote: Yeah, because a white shark will NEVER catch a lone Orca alone, period. Orca's always travel in pods or pairs, now thats a 100% undisputable fact. Quote: Again, I never claimed this as a fact, and I already gave my examples by explaining the anatomy of both animals and explaining how it can help them in a head-on battle. And yes, common sense and observations by experts clearly proves that they dominate because they run in packs. Why?...because again, I've never seen or heard of a lone Orca ever predating a huge, powerful animal - single-handedly, thats why. Now, if Orca's were solitary predators, you actually think they would go around predating on full-grown adult white sharks?.. Orcas are called the "Wolves of the Sea" for a very good reason. They use the luxury of size combined with the strength in numbers to dominate the ocean. Quote:Goes without saying, given their more tender skin. Exactly, and just one single bite from a white shark and that Orca is gonna be in a world of trouble! My other "claims" were about tigers vs Brown bears, now I'm not exactly gonna start posting those accounts on this thread, am I??...Thats completely irrelevant. @Shadow I claimed that the shark killed by a single adult Orca in the Farallons was a juvenile. Well, here...I found an article stating it was a juvenile white shark: "Ok, so the battle wasn't all it was billed to be. It was as one-sided as most heavyweight fights these days. But keep in mind that the killer whale was a full-grown adult, and the white shark was a juvenile that probably hadn't developed its taste for blood yet." “White sharks get to be about 18-20 feet long and in theory, a great white shark, until it’s about 12-14 feet long, is effectively still a juvenile,” Brown said. “A 10-footer is probably still feeding on fishes. It’s when they reach about 12 feet that they start preying on large mammals, such as seals and sea lions. And that’s when they develop that incredible girth.” “I’ve often had people ask me during lectures that, if I had to put money on it, who would I choose in a fight between an orca and a great white shark. I said I’d choose the orca, hands down, because orca's are team players and they’re so much more intelligent.” https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1997-oct-10-sp-41347-story.html You see shadow, a 9 - 10ft white shark is clearly a juvenile, and thats when their still feeding on fishes, not on large marine mammals. Brown also favours the orca over the white shark, not just because of the intelligence, but the first factor he mentioned is that Orca's are TEAM-PLAYERS - again, which is a huge advantage. @Rishi can you publish my previous post now in response to shadow and chaos, please? (08-17-2019, 06:44 PM)Megalodon Wrote:(08-17-2019, 05:50 AM)Rishi Wrote:(08-16-2019, 11:49 PM)Megalodon Wrote: @Rishi That 10 feet shark could have been 9 or maybe 11, I don´t know if it was measured. So was it a juvenile or adult remains maybe always mystery. Anyway there are measured great white sharks too and biggest, which I remember was 4,9 meters. So smaller or bigger they are targeted. But you have now repeated your claims many times and as you can see, your claim, that orcas would be only successful because team players is only your opinion, not proven fact, like you want to say. You want to convince people, that great white shark would be 1-1 too much for orca. I disagree and so do many others. And while great white sharks flee from orcas, I think that you will have very hard time to convince anyone. Orca obviously, alone or in group won´t flee great white shark. At this point your opinion is clear. And also it, that it is your opinion, nothing more or less. No point to repeat that time after time anymore, everyone interested have seen how you think now. And your quote could be highlighted also like this: "because orca's are team players and they’re so much more intelligent.” |
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