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ON THE EDGE OF EXTINCTION - A - THE TIGER (Panthera tigris)
ON THE EDGE OF EXTINCTION - A - THE TIGER (Panthera tigris)
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ON THE EDGE OF EXTINCTION - A - THE TIGER (Panthera tigris)
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 (10-31-2014, 03:46 AM)'tigerluver' Wrote: Objective statistics approach to the elephant in the room.Your effort is great, thank you for provide this comparison, but this time, I am not entirely agree. The samples of "modern" tigers are to small (in comparison with the old ones) and Chitwan and Nagarahole specimens, in the image, are not adjusted for stomach content, which inflate the results. On the "old" tigers side, I most remember to all what I have wrote before, there is a great possibility that young tigers were included, together with other emaciated and wounded specimens. Although I can't denied the fact that most of the male tigers in modern parks are huge, we most remember that those large specimens are just the top of the tiger society, while there are many other young or old specimens that are ignored in modern records for obvious reasons, but that formed part in the old ones. I still think that Bengal tigers have not presented a dramatic variation on its size, only slightly in the body mass with advantage to the modern specimens, caused by factors that Peter have already explained. Similar case most be presented for the Amur tiger, although in this case, the difference in weight is dramatic, but not in body size. A comparison between the few reliable measurements of old records with the modern ones, show that they were about the same size, with the difference mostly in chest girth and weight, which in this case, favored the old Amur tigers. I still think that the average weight for male Bengal tigers should be between 210 -220 kg, adjusted for stomach content, with the advantage on the modern side. 
I was going over the 5 cubs that were released under the watchful eyes of Vladimir Putin and found some of the weight, first is a 19 month old male cub weighing 330lbs or 149.6kg.
Rare Siberian tiger 'flees' from Russia to China Roaming big cat swims river between the two countries, prompting jokes about Vladimir Putin visit  *This image is copyright of its original author An endangered Siberian tiger released into the wild by Vladimir Putin has "defected" to China. The male tiger, named Kuzya, swam across the Amur river, which is Russia's border with China in the Far East region. Mr Putin set free Kuzya, and two more of the rare tigers named Borya and Ilona, in a filmed ceremony in May. The Russian president is well-known for his love of nature and animal stunts, having flown with cranes in a motorised hang-glider, fired a tranquiliser dart into a grey whale with a crossbow, and measured a slumbering polar bear. On Wednesday, he revealed that "everything still hurts" after he spent his 62nd birthday on October 7 trekking through mountains for five miles. His spokesman had said earlier the president would pass the day in the Siberian taiga, up to 250 miles from the nearest settlement. Kuzya's "escape" caused mirth in the Russian Twittersphere. "The tiger is the first guy Putin has set free since Khodorkovsky," said one joker, referring to the jailed oil tycoon who was released from prison last year, and who now lives in Switzerland. "1. A tiger that once met Putin swiftly runs out of the taiga and off to China," wrote another. "2. Putin heads off to spend his birthday in the taiga. 3. Question: Who tipped off the tiger?" The World Wildlife Fund believes there are no more than 450 Siberian or Amur tigers left in the wild. They mostly live in the Sikhote-Alin mountain range in the Primorsky and Khabarovsky provinces of the Russian Far East, although there are small pockets in the border areas of China and possibly North Korea. The tigers, which have shaggy coats in order to survive Russia's snowy winters, are threatened by illegal logging and poachers, especially in China where their body parts are used in medicine. Earlier this week, Russia's veterinary watchdog warned that Siberian tigers could be affected by an epidemic of gypsy moths in Primorsky, which destroy fruit trees on which some prey of the big cats feed. The tigers released by Mr Putin in the Zhelundinsky nature reserve in the spring were wearing satellite-tracked collars. All three were among five tiger cubs that were rescued by Russian zoologists after being found exhausted and abandoned by their mother and taken to a rehabilitation centre a year and a half ago. Borya and Ilona stayed in Russia after they were let go but Kuzya swam the river to China at the beginning of October. Vitaly Timchenko, the head of Tiger, a state-controlled body that helps protect the animals from poachers, told Russian media he hoped that Chinese colleagues would continue monitoring Kuzya. Valery Pagasienko, head of the region's hunting control directorate, said he doubted suggestions the 330lb[b] tiger had gone to China in search of food. "We were tracking them and they were feeding well," he said. "Ilona began hunting first and then Kuzya killed a wild boar." The tiger had moved abroad because of its natural "roaming character", he added. Later on Wednesday, Chinese specialists said Kuzya had been spotted in the Taipinggou nature reserve in northeastern Heilongjiang province, after a tip-off from the Russian experts. Chen Zhigang, the director of the reserve, told the official Xinhua news agency there should be plenty for the wild cat to eat but officials could "release cattle" into the area to feed it if necessary Russia and China have been strengthening ties since the EU and United States introduced sanctions against Moscow over the Ukraine crisis earlier this year. However the two countries, which fought an armed conflict over an island in the Amur in 1969, remain wary of each other. Please keep in mind that this cub was of 19 months age in [b]May/2014 when Prime Minister of Russia, Vladimir Putin first tagged him. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnew...China.html China and Russian Wildlife conservationists are working together to keep a track of this young male. Here's another young male cub weighing 140kg and the female 105kg (both roughly about 19 months the time of their weighing) http://programmes.putin.kremlin.ru/en/tiger/news/24831 On 4 June, two Amur tigers left for the wilderness of the Jewish Autonomous Region after completing a rehabilitation programme in the Primorye Territory. On 5 June, when the country celebrates Ecologist’s Day, the tigers will be released at the Zhuravliny (Crane) game reserve. This will be a gift for all nature conservation experts and volunteers, as well as for the tigers themselves. Today was a hard day at the Centre for the Rehabilitation and Reintroduction of Tigers and Other Rare Animals in the village of Alexeyevka. Experts had to catch the tigers inside their enclosures, measure and weigh them and load them inside transport cages for subsequent delivery. It was possible to immobilise the male tiger named Ustin by 10 am, but the rather cautious female tiger, Svetlaya (Bright), hid successfully until noon. Both tigers are healthy, with the male and female weighing 140 kg and 105 kg,respectively. They are ready to be released into the wild. Once little tigers doomed to die, they have received a new lease of life, and they will be able to roam free and unhindered in their new home. The Centre for the Rehabilitation and Reintroduction of Tigers and Other Rare Animals has already prepared several tigers for subsequent release. In May 2013, a tigress named Zolushka (Cinderella) was successfully released at the Bastak reserve in the Jewish Autonomous Region. That same year, the largest number of Amur tigers was released into the wild. This was made possible by a programme to research the Amur tiger in Russia's Far East, an independent project of the permanent expedition of the Russian Academy of Sciences aiming to study endangered animals listed in the Russian Red Data Book. That expedition was established in 2008 at the Severtsov Institute of Ecology and Evolution of the Russian Academy of Sciences. The releases were also made possible by the consolidated efforts of the Tiger special inspection, the Phoenix Foundation, the International Fund for Animal Welfare (IFAW) and the Wildlife Conservation Fund (WCS). Please note that, 3 males and 2 females were released and their names are (M, Kuzya- 149.6kg) brother of Borya (M, Ustin - 140kg) (F, Svetlaya - 105kg) (M, Borya - weight unknown, brother of Kuzya (F, IIona - weight known 
I tried to add some notes to my last post but I keep getting 404 trying so. So here are a couple notes for that image:
1. "*" indicates scale was bottomed out. 2. No food adjustments as it's impossible to fairly adjust across the board. You already know my view on food adjustments based on the digestion process of a cat anyhow. Nagarhole figures are raw weights for this reason, also considering the photos don't show gorged specimens. Guate, in terms of food adjustment, not touching either side is fair as even the old specimens would have food in them. Adjusting one side would create imbalance. On old specimens being taken young, I agree. Tigers seem to grow for a quite a while, and easily put on weight until 7 or 8 I've noticed. Plus, the rate at which tigers were being killed doesn't bold well for a tiger getting to it's physical peak, and this probably skewed the results downward. I haven't been able to find any hunters distinguishing unfortunately, having that would create a better comparison. At the same time, I believe 3-4 year old specimens are scientifically considered fully grown, but in reality, this isn't the case. So this point may still be even in the end as well. Like I said before, the P-value is fragile. Maybe if we start adding tigers from Central India and such we'll have a P-value of >0.05, thus not rejecting our null hypothesis. (10-31-2014, 09:56 PM)'tigerluver' Wrote: I tried to add some notes to my last post but I keep getting 404 trying so. So here are a couple notes for that image:Like I said, I appreciate very much your eforts. You are right in the point that if we adjust one group, then we should adjust the other group and we can't do it correctly as different populations of tigers have different food intakes. For example, Nepalese tigers eat between 14-19 kg in a single night (Sunquist, 1981), while those of Kanha were recorded to eat 18-27 kg in the same time (Schaller, 1967); no other reliable measurements are available in literature, just estimation of up to 40 kg for Amur tigers (Baikov, 1926), but like much of his data, this figures is unreliable. Dr Schaller (1967) estimated that the maximum food intake for a tiger, in 24 hours, is about 1/5 of they weight, which for a large male would be about 45 kg, however, in the reality, the largest food intake ever recorded was for a large male that gorge itself with 35 kg in a single night (McDougal, 1979). I am still reading the book of Dr McDougal, so I have not found which male was the one that eat that figure. [img]images/smilies/huh.gif[/img]
On the point of Roflcopters and his report on the young Amur tigers, I want to thanks him for the effort. In fact, I want to add this report:
Amur tiger Kuzya released into wild 16 September 2014 In May 2014, an Amur tiger named Kuzya was released into the wild together with other tigers as part of efforts under the presidential programme for the conservation of rare animals. The tiger is leaving the Amur River territory and heading south, to the area where the Jewish Autonomous Region borders the Khabarovsk Territory, a press statement from the regional department for wildlife conservation has reported. The two other tigers, Ilona and Boris, are inhabiting the territory where they were released, namely at the Zheludinsky and Andreyevsky wildlife preserves, only seldom leaving the protected areas. The striped wild cats are monitored by Primorye specialists of the Tiger Special Inspectorate and game management specialists of the wildlife preserves. They say the animals got used to the new environment very fast and hunt small game, wild boars and roe deer. In September, Boris killed a bear. Specialists monitor the 1.5-year-old tigers by obtaining data from special satellite collars attached to them. The devices are programmed in a way that allows the wild cats get rid of them in one year and live independently. Source: http://programmes.putin.kremlin.ru/en/tiger/news/24889 Incredible, don't you think? [img]images/smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]
I haven't read the book itself, but I've read the male at 35 kg over a period of 24 hrs from secondary sources, so I guess it's not really too exceptional considering he had plenty of time to make more room. Maybe you could confirm that 35 kg in 24 hours figure.
The self-fall off satellite collar in ingenious, respect for the animal and helps science at the same time, well done. 
1 - THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN GORGED AND EMPTY MALE TIGERS IN COOCH BEHAR, THE DUARS AND ASSAM
This is a table I made in 2012 for AVA. At first sight, two conclusions can be made: a - I distinguished between male Cooch Behar tigers of 440 lbs. and male tigers of less than 440 lbs. The conclusion is 440 lbs. and over tigers were 9,72 cm. (almost 4 inches) longer in total length and 5,22 cm. (just over 2 inches) in head and body. This difference resulted in a difference in weight of 80.4 lbs. (36,47 kg.). b - Gorged (baited) tigers, averaged 512,56 lbs. (232,50 kg.). The others averaged 452,61 lbs. (204,85 kg.). The difference between both, therefore, was 60 lbs. (27,22 kg.). Gorged tigers were a bit (less than 1 inch) longer than the others in total length, but there was no difference in head and body length. An average male gorged tiger in north-east India, therefore, is about 60 lbs. heavier than an empty male tiger of similar size (all other factors equal): 2 - COOCH BEHAR MALE TIGERS COMPARED TO DECCAN AND NORTH-WEST INDIA MALE TIGERS  *This image is copyright of its original author a - The conclusion regarding heavy male tigers and others in Cooch Behar is confirmed in both the Deccan and north-west India: heavy tigers (those of 420 or 440 lbs.) were longer than those below 420 or 440 lbs. (total length). They were 9,72 cm. longer in Cooch Behar, but in the Deccan the difference was 12,7 cm. (about 5 inches) and in north-west India it was 13,96 cm. b - At about similar size (total length about 297 cm. in the Deccan and in Cooch Behar and 299 cm. in north-west India), large male tigers (those over 420 lbs. in the Deccan and over 440 lbs. in the other regions) are a bit (12 lbs.) heavier in north-west Indian than in Cooch Behar and Assam and much heavier (almost 62 lbs.) than those in the Deccan. c - In Indian male tigers, there seems a strong correlation between total length and weight: the longer the tiger, the heavier. Could be a result of age. If we assume Nepal tigers are similar to those in India, the conclusion is they probably are heavier. The reason is they are significantly longer (total length 'over curves'). d - The difference between Cooch Behar tigers and north-west India tigers probably is well over 12 lbs. The reason is the sample from Cooch Behar was a bit inflated (38 shortish tigers were not weighed), whereas the north-west India sample had a few young adults. Furthermore, 12 'heavy' or 'very heavy' tigers were not weighed. e - All in all, we have 402 lbs, for the Deccan, 419 lbs. for central India, 435 lbs. for north-west India and 460 lbs. for north-east India. This was about 100-150 years ago. As stated before, I think the Deccan average was a bit higher, whereas the average for Cooch Behar would be a bit lower. My guesstimate of 435-450 as a general average for India could have been close. Nepal tigers probably were heavier. Today, the average could be 5-10% higher (between 455-495 lbs. roughly). However. We have to remember a population is more than a few large apex males. There are young adults, transients, small males, large males and old tigers. Prime males could be well over 500 lbs., but they are at the top. Most males would be smaller. My average for now would be 460-470 lbs. for all, meaby a bit less. But I could be wrong.  (11-01-2014, 09:21 AM)'GuateGojira' Wrote:(10-31-2014, 09:56 PM)'tigerluver' Wrote: I tried to add some notes to my last post but I keep getting 404 trying so. So here are a couple notes for that image:Like I said, I appreciate very much your eforts. You are right in the point that if we adjust one group, then we should adjust the other group and we can't do it correctly as different populations of tigers have different food intakes. For example, Nepalese tigers eat between 14-19 kg in a single night (Sunquist, 1981), while those of Kanha were recorded to eat 18-27 kg in the same time (Schaller, 1967); no other reliable measurements are available in literature, just estimation of up to 40 kg for Amur tigers (Baikov, 1926), but like much of his data, this figures is unreliable. Dr Schaller (1967) estimated that the maximum food intake for a tiger, in 24 hours, is about 1/5 of they weight, which for a large male would be about 45 kg, however, in the reality, the largest food intake ever recorded was for a large male that gorge itself with 35 kg in a single night (McDougal, 1979). I don't think food intake has anything to do with location, I think it has to do with size of the tiger. Corbetts book that I am reading, the chapter about the Bachelor, he is reported to have the largest pug marks that any of these poachers and indian guides had ever seen, he was measured three times by corbett with a length of 10'7'' and he was reported to be able to devour most of a domestic buffalo in one sitting. I wonder if its possible to determine food intake by body weight %? (11-01-2014, 06:54 PM)'peter' Wrote: 1 - THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN GORGED AND EMPTY MALE TIGERS IN COOCH BEHAR, THE DUARS AND ASSAM Tigerluver and I have both seen this for some time, body length is the best correalation for Tiger size. The longer the tiger, usually means the larger the tiger and older. Nice info Peter. The # of tigers weighed is just so few, and the locations are so small that its impossible to know for sure what or where the largest tigers live.
FORD BARCLAY - 'THE MANCHURIAN TIGER' (London, 1915)
In February of this year, I was contacted by a South-Korean Wildlife Conservationist (not a biologist, but a lawyer). He wanted to join AVA, but it was impossible because AVA had been hacked. We lost contact after February. A pity, because I would have invited him to join our forum. He sent me a number of articles. This is also from him. Ford Barclay's article ('The Manchurian Tiger') was published in 1915 (London). It's short, but interesting. This also is the article that fooled many biologists some decades ago. I'm referring to the alleged frozen Amur tiger with a head and body length of 10.5 (...) that found it's way in a number of books (like V. Mazak's 'Der Tiger' and Heptner and Sludskij's 'Mammals of the Sovjet-Union'). Those fooled, of course, had to pay later. Anyhow. Barclay's article was, so it seems, first published in a magazin ('The gun at home & abroad'). I never read it before and that probably is true for most of us. I tried to post it some months ago, but failed as a result of the quality of the scans. I hope the result is a bit better this time:  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author Below is the story on the giant Amur tiger that fooled many:  *This image is copyright of its original author Here's some information on tigers in Korea. In the first decades of the 20th century, they allegedly were more numerous in the northern part of the country. In spite of that, it was easier to contact them in the southern part of the country. It wasn't quite the contact tigers would have preferred. Near mining concessions, they were killed by dynamite hidden in baits (...). This continued until it was forbidden by the Japanese. Poison also was much used and later forbidden by the Japanese. Most tigers, however, died in drop traps:  *This image is copyright of its original author Tigers not only reached the coast in south-west Korea (near the port of Mokpo), but they also swam to islands. The island of Chindo, about the size of Wight, apparently was known for tigers. They crossed the 2-3 miles wide channel to the mainland, but apparently it wasn't without danger: in 1914, a tiger washed up on the west coast of Japan (near Matsue):  *This image is copyright of its original author Barclay thought tigers were a bit larger in the north of Korea. He never saw exceptional skins in Korea. On the other hand, he shot one of 9.7 'between sticks' (292,10 cm.) in the extreme south of Korea in 1903. That tiger, according to experienced locals, was no less than 3 feet shorter than a tiger shot in 1893 (...). I can't make head or tails of it, but a 9.7 tiger is a large animal anywhere. Also read the part on a tiger passing close (within a few yards) to Barclay, without him hearing or seeing anything on page 231:  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author This is a tiger shot by Barclay near Mokpo (a port in south-west Korea):  *This image is copyright of its original author This tiger was shot near Shin-do:  *This image is copyright of its original author
DALE MIQUELLE INTERVIEWED BY thinkRUSSIA (July 29, 2013):
A reminder of how the WCS Siberian Tiger Project was conceived and a summary of the aims, the methods used and, of course, the results. The second page has info on the new research centre (intended to attract and train young specialists) and the future of the Amur tiger:  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author
CAPTIVE MALE AMUR TIGER DVUR KRALOVY
This photograph has been posted before. Although it belongs in the board on captive big cats, I posted it here as well. The reason is a number of measurements were known. Same for the weight: 203,00 cm. - Head and body length 084,00 cm. - Head circumference 190,00 kg. - Weight Conclusion. This is about as average as it gets. Impressive at any rate:  *This image is copyright of its original author
ZOOLOGISCHER GARTEN BERLIN - OCTOBER 2014
This photograph is a new one. It belongs in the captive big cats board, but I posted it here as well. This is an adult female of Panthera tigris corbetti in the Zoologischer Garten of Berlin. I never saw corbetti before, because they are rare in European zoos. But the Zoologischer Garten is a special zoo:  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author
(11-01-2014, 11:29 PM)'Pckts' Wrote:I just put the only available data, I am not saying that in fact, food intake has to be with location.(11-01-2014, 09:21 AM)'GuateGojira' Wrote: Like I said, I appreciate very much your efforts. You are right in the point that if we adjust one group, then we should adjust the other group and we can't do it correctly as different populations of tigers have different food intakes. For example, Nepalese tigers eat between 14-19 kg in a single night (Sunquist, 1981), while those of Kanha were recorded to eat 18-27 kg in the same time (Schaller, 1967); no other reliable measurements are available in literature, just estimation of up to 40 kg for Amur tigers (Baikov, 1926), but like much of his data, this figures is unreliable. Dr Schaller (1967) estimated that the maximum food intake for a tiger, in 24 hours, is about 1/5 of they weight, which for a large male would be about 45 kg, however, in the reality, the largest food intake ever recorded was for a large male that gorge itself with 35 kg in a single night (McDougal, 1979). What interesting is the fact that although Kanha tigers are, on average, lighter than Chitwan tigers (203 kg against 221 kg, respectively), they have a higher food intake. I think that it is more related with food availability than with size itself. For example, Nagarahole tigers are lighter than those of Nepal, but still, they were adjusted by 30 kg when captured (although Tigerluver said that they don't look gorged to him). Other thing, in the time of Schaller's study, Kanha was in a process of recovering, and its prey density was growing, but compared with Chitwan, it had a lower prey density (in that time, in latter studies Kanha was much diferent (Panwar, 1987)). I guess that Chitwan tigers eat "less" because they had a higher prey density and needed to kill less often than, for example, Kanha tigers. Schaller recorded many instances of empty belly tigers after several nights of unsuccessful hunts, probably this provoque them to eat more than for example, those of Chitwan. Prey items are similar (Kanha had gaur in higher density, by the way), but still, the figures show different results. I guess than the Bachelor, by virtue of its size, probably was able to eat 50 kg in one night, I don't remember if the domestic buffalo was an adult one or a calf. In the last case, those specimens (c.90 kg) had just about 50 - 60 kg of edible parts, excluding guts, bones, skin and stomach content.
On the food intake part:
1. One possibility of the differing food intake is how long the tiger's been able to feed. Specimens of equal size would have the same amount in stomach, but if one had some more time to eat it would make it look like the belly content is more. Thus, like I said before, food removed from carcass doesn't often equal food in belly. 2. Size theoretically should have a direct correlation with food intake due to the basal metabolic rate. But at the same time, genetic background also has a strong effect on BMI. I work hands on with avians, so I'll use my observations there to explain this last point. I've had parrots half the size of others eat literally twice as much, if not more. Of course, birds digest and pass by the hour, but the point is the same. Some guys are small but just eaters, some are quite large but natural dieters. The best explanation, genetics. In my opinion, parks throughout India seem to have genetically unique tigers from place to place based on the general physical appearance. A tiger from Ranthambore is clearly different from a tiger from Kanha. The genetic difference from park to park likely has enough influence to make BMI to size ratios different across the groups of modern Bengal tigers. |
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