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ON THE EDGE OF EXTINCTION - A - THE TIGER (Panthera tigris)

Canada GrizzlyClaws Offline
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I don't think the hybrid tigers are a big deal, since the modern tiger subspecies are just the combo of the different prehistoric tiger subspecies.

The prehistoric tiger subspecies often doing the genetic exchange with the neighbor subspecies from the geographical proximity; the Sumatran tiger is a great example as the hybrid descendant of the Mainland tiger and Island tiger.
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Netherlands peter Offline
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( This post was last modified: 09-20-2017, 08:46 AM by peter )

(09-19-2017, 04:29 AM)Wolverine Wrote:
(08-27-2017, 07:50 PM)peter Wrote: I'll write a full report for the client soon.

Peter, did you get feedback from your client concerning tiger-boar case? Any news?

My client is the reader. Same for you. We were able to solve both mysteries because we cooperated. Excellent work, I think.

I printed everything I have and will use it to write a paper. I'll use it for the book, but could sell it to a newspaper as well. At least one is interested. Here's how I got there.

I like sports and a few other things. For this reason, I'm a member of a number of clubs. After play, people talk. Good stories are appreciated, but they need to be real. Thanks to you, I had two good stories. I didn't tell them everything, but part of it. I then asked them to find the answer to the question. 'To keep it short: they didn't succeed. When I told them, they refused to believe me. I had to convince them with everything I had. The reporter was so impressed by what he read, that he informed his boss. Russian tigers featuring in a Dutch newspaper? Could be.

Many people like good stories. As they can't find them in real life, they go for the usual suspects: movies, books and things like that. The point is that most of these stories are about people. Not a few of them are, ehhh, difficult to digest. 

Why not have look at reality or the natural world? Not seldom, it has more suspense than the best book. The incidents discussed in this thread were confirmed by people in the know. Many people would like to read more. 

As I found out more and more about the two male Amur tigers found dead in Wild Russia, my interest changed into amazement. These male tigers clearly were thinking animals very well adapted to the circumstances. It's also clear they developed over time. This is apart from the stamina and power demonstrated by the tiger eaten alive by a terrible disease. Hours before his death, he decided for one more boar. Not just a boar, but a big male. 

When I meet people with a similar interest, we talk. Not for hours, but days. Not seldom, I even travel to other countries to do just that. Are we outsiders with an interest in something many consider as strange? No doubt we are to some, but the question is who is an outsider. Humans talk human affairs all the time everywhere. What I hear is not much different from what I read in books written two thousands years ago, as humans are driven by the same instincts and goals. Not saying I can see it coming in most conversations, but I have to admit it often is quite close. Many talk about themselves and then they don't, as I seldom see anything close to originality. Strange, as all of us are individuals. But are we? Today, at least in the western hemisphere, many often look, act and talk alike. Same for many systems used in these societies. Things are getting standardized and humans are quick to follow, so it seems. If we add social media and all the rest of it, the picture is quite gloomy. No wonder so many fear they will be replaced by computers in the near future.

Some time before I got started in society, I decided for a somewhat different course. If you do, you have to find your way. The advantage is your decisions will be based on personal experience. As you develop, you'll meet people who decided for a similar course. Most of them, like wild animals, are survivors. They also are individuals with original opinions. What they say and think, is theirs. Not a few of them are interested in things often ignored by others. The natural world often features. I also noticed they often have an eye for humans able to communicate in a way many now consider as weird. But it isn't. Over time, humans lost the ability to communicate to, for example, wild animals. Humans can do a lot more, but that should be discussed in another section.

Anyhow. Those interested in the natural world know that those who make their home over there are far from inferior. They also know that wild animals in general and big predators in particular are thinking creatures developing all the time. Every time we have the opportunity to get to the details of a true story, it should be discussed. The reason is it has value.

There's no question that you contributed in that department. Many thanks again and be sure I'll be waiting for the next one.
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Netherlands peter Offline
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( This post was last modified: 09-20-2017, 07:32 AM by peter )

(09-20-2017, 06:05 AM)Greatearth Wrote: That article posted by Peter. I think It's a good paper. However, I can't accept and absolutely disagree with that CAT SPECIALIST GROUP paper.
https://repository.si.edu/bitstream/hand...sAllowed=y


There is still debating on how to distiniguish species and subspecies. So it may have been true about tiger subspecies are 2. However, it shoudln't be allowed to crossbreed the tiger subspecies that is further from habitat. They need to crossbreed with geologically closer subspecies.

For example, 
The Siberian tiger should crossbreed with the South China tiger or Caspian tiger (Caspian are extinct anyway).
The South China tiger should crossbreed with the Siberian tiger or Indochinese tiger.
The Indochinese tiger should crossbreed with the Bengal tiger and Malayan tiger
The Malayan tiger should crossbreed with the Indochinese tiger and maybe Sumatran tiger (I don't know how much crossbreed between those 2 subspecies)
The Bengal tiger should crossbreed the Indochinese tiger.
The Sumatran tiger should crossbreed with the Javan tiger and maybe Malayan tiger
If extinct Javan tiger and Bali tiger were still alive. Then Bali tiger should crossbreed with the Javan tiger only. The Javan tiger could crossbreed with


Beside all of those people members were from Western Europe (looks like mostly UK) , USA, Japan, and other country who used to colonized and murdered tons of animals and humans in past. These people were responsible for corrupting governments in many other continents and making many animals to extinct in first place. Now, they are always blaming people in Asia and Africa for not saving animals in media. I seen it so much they're writing racist things to Asian and African whenever it is about conservation issue. Now, these people are going to mess up the nature order by making hybrid animal in different continents just like they used to extinguish many animals 100 years ago? This shouldn't be allowed. How about they should worry about animals in their place first if they are going to obsessed and keep messing up with animals in another continent/country . I hope Asian governments doesn't allow introducing worthless hybrid tigers to their nature and making more difficult for letting those people to study tigers in their country..

I am worry that those people are going to sending the Bengal tigers in India/Nepal to Malaysia and northeastern China. Then making bunch of worthless hybrid tigers and destroying natural order. Not just the tiger, all of Feline and animals!! It should be only crossbreed with geologically closer animal. I also noticed zoo is ignorant and making bunch of hybrid animal subspecies before: I saw one zookeeper was mixing Sri lankan elephant with elephant from Thailand. Entire nature is becoming insane since 19th century.
Look what happened to Guam island, New Zealand, Florida, Hawaii, Galapagos, and many other places. Many of endemic animals in these places were destroyed by human by introducing alien animals or invasive species.

GREATEARTH

I posted the link to the article in order to inform those interested. We need to know about the latest developments. Doesn't mean all researchers agree on two tiger subspecies and doesn't mean I agree.

I propose to use the article to start a discussion. In order to do so, we need to remove anything that could block a free exchange of ideas. Strong opinions definitely do not qualify, as they often are related to some kind of fundamentalism. 

As to the remark on bias raised in your post. I'm not saying that inequality isn't an issue in the western hemisphere (it is), but it shouldn't be discussed in this thread. Anything not related to tigers doesn't belong here. The aim is to focus on the tiger, not something else.  

As to the new proposal on tiger subspecies. The authors clearly stated that opinions differ in this respect. If you want to debate subspecies, use arguments. The reason is arguments can be discussed, accepted or rejected. Opinions can not.  

Please edit your last post and concentrate on arguments.
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United States tigerluver Offline
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( This post was last modified: 09-20-2017, 09:55 AM by tigerluver )

In a time where other species are being pushed for further division (i.e. giraffes and African lions), I find proposal to simplify classification of the tiger to be bold and unique. The underlying point behind the notion is that management of ~8 subspecies is too difficult and then they are able to find definitions of subspeciation that allow the subspeciation to be simplified. On one hand, the approach is pragmatic. Southeast Asia will probably lose its native tigers in the next century for a plethora of reasons that transcend poaching and habitat loss. The only subspecies that have an okay future as of now are the Amur, Bengal, and maybe Sumatran forms. By simplifying subspeciation, one day the gap in southeast Asia could be refilled without needing the discussion of the wrong genetics being reintroduced. On the other hand, the current premise of subspecies simplification is that there is too much overlap in DNA sequences. The authors in Wiltig et al. (2015) make a good point that clouded leopard subspecies lack these overlaps. However, the issue stands that authors diversifying subspecies today usually do not seem to call to attention such overlaps in their works. This means there is an underlying different in subspecies definition. As of now, zoology is still a bit spread apart. With upsides and downsides, there is no central body defining these terms across species and thus there is confusion. In my mind, the optimal approach would be to preserve each population nonetheless as it at the worst, cannot hurt. Plus, allopatric (sub)speciation exists and by conventional terms, the distant between Ussuri and India has been a barrier in itself for millenia, with or without a hybridizing region in China. Thus one could argue that the genotypic differences between the Bengal and Amur tigers that were attributed to being man-made by Wiltig et al. (2015) could also be simply attributed the barrier of distance. Nevertheless, the reality of the difficulty of this task is there and perhaps one day such discussion will be obsolete when tigers and humans can no longer coexist and the former disappears moreso than it already has.
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United States tigerluver Offline
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On another note I found this interesting map on India's population, specifically in Uttar Pradesh.

*This image is copyright of its original author


Seeing a nation home so much of humanity while also somehow retaining fauna that to the instinct have no place near human populations (i.e. predators like the tiger) is inspiring. Thus, perhaps rather than focusing on managing tigers by making classification simpler, the nation that has been able to somehow keep multiple populations of one of the largest predators today should be focused on as a model of what to do. In other words, the tiger somehow has been kept off the edge of extinction in a land where statistics would say there should only be humans. It would be a good direction for scientists to understand what factors (that will likely transcend biology) have allowed India to do such a good job relative to the rest of the world. You can have 2 subspecies or 8, but if management gets sloppy you'll have none in the end.
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Netherlands peter Offline
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( This post was last modified: 09-20-2017, 06:08 PM by peter )

FOUR FACTORS AFFECTING CONSERVATION

I agree the new classification could be seen as an attempt to make life a bit easier for those involved in conservation and management, Tigerluver. However. In the end, as you wrote, it is about commitment and management. And not subspecies.

The only countries where tigers seem to stand a chance in the near future, in that order, are Russia, China, India, Nepal and Bhutan. In the first two countries, politics is important. It's well-known that Putin in particular has a keen interest in wildlife. It had a result. A result that could have inspired China. The new giant reserve in the northeastern part of the country is a clear statement regarding conservation. It's likely that the new policy on conservation will produce results in the next decades. In India, Nepal and Bhutan, culture and outlook seem to be major factors.

In spite of the commitment seen in these countries, tigers are still poached. Even in Russia, about 20 tigers are killed by poachers every year. Not so long ago, I posted a Russian newspaper article in which a wealthy man from Vladivostok featured. Although he shot many rare species, they couldn't really get to him. They tried for a number of years, but he got away with a fine. A big one, but a fine. This means that legislation is a major problem in Russia.

Another major problem is protection. Those paid to protect rare wild animals often face well-armed poachers. What I see, is a situation not that different from a guerilla at times.  

Poachers, or those employing them, are in the know as well. When they see a weak spot, they act. Just before the turn of the century, Cambodia had close to a thousand wild tigers. A conservative estimate, many thought. About 15 years later, they were gone. All of them:

http://www.phnompenhpost.com/national/ca...hest-world

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deforestation_in_Cambodia

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/...n-cambodia

All in all, there seem to be four factors that affect conservation: commitment (politics and culture), funding, protection and legislation. The focus seems to be shifting towards protection and legislation.
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