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ON THE EDGE OF EXTINCTION - A - THE TIGER (Panthera tigris)
ON THE EDGE OF EXTINCTION - A - THE TIGER (Panthera tigris)
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ON THE EDGE OF EXTINCTION - A - THE TIGER (Panthera tigris)
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An interesting site ( post #1,094 above ). What I am unable to find, perhaps political reasons, are books translated from Russian to English. If they exist at all, I have not found them.
 (02-02-2017, 04:39 PM)brotherbear Wrote: An interesting site ( post #1,094 above ). What I am unable to find, perhaps political reasons, are books translated from Russian to English. If they exist at all, I have not found them. Shakariconnection: - 'Beyond the Ural mountains' (Aramilev, I.); - 'Tigers, Gold and witch-doctors' (Digby, B.); - 'The Manchurian tiger' (Baikov, N.), and - 'Dersu the trapper' (Arseniev, V.K.) Safari Press: - 'Hunting trips in the land of the szars' (Czech, K.P.). Other sites: - 'Winter ecology of the Amur tiger' (Yudakov, A.G. and Nikolaev, I.G.); - 'The tiger' (Vaillant, J.), and - 'Der letzte Kampf der Tigers' (Egli, W.) - although fiction, the author has knowledge about Amur tigers. Over the years, I found a lot more. If interested in books (translated from Russian), you need to visit the sites mentioned every now and then. There are many more.
Thank you, Peter. I read Dersu the Trapper; very good book and an interesting person.
THE MANCHURIAN CANDIDATE
I forgot to mention 'The tiger's claw', Brotherbear. It wasn't translated from Russian, but written in English by Mary Linley Taylor right from the start. Taylor, from the UK, lived in Korea between 1918-1942. In Seoul, she met a woman who often went to the northern part of the country in summer. She was the one who introduced her to the daughter of George Jankowski. Mary Taylor was invited by the Jankowsky's. The book she wrote is largely based on conversations with George Jankowski, who had moved to Korea in 1923. Jankowski was well-known in his time. Even the Japanese, who had occupied Korea in those days, respected the man who knew more about tigers than any other man. His children called him 'Papa Tiger'. When the Red Army invaded Korea in 1945, the Jankowski's were arrested. Taylor wrote she never heard anything about them after 1945. I don't know what happened to Georg Jankowski and his family, but it's clear they survived. In his book 'Der Tiger' (1983, pp, 185-186 and 189), V. Mazak wrote that he corresponded with W.J. Jankowski, one of the sons of George Jankowski. In his letters, W.J. Jankowski informed Mazak about the Amur tigers he, his brothers and his father had shot. In one of his letters (May 8, 1970), W.J. Jankowski wrote that the largest Amur tiger he had even seen was a male shot in July 1943 in Manchuria, This tiger, significantly bigger than all others, was 11.6 'over curves' in total length and most probably very close to 300 kg. (662 pounds). His father also saw his share of large tigers. Most, if not all, were shot in Manchuria. The book offers a room with a view on a region that has been completely transformed. Manchuria, only a century ago described as a 'sea of forest', still has forests and tigers (in the extreme east), but these are migrants from Russia. The Manchurian gene is gone. Important, as these tigers seemed to be different from tigers in Korea and Russia. All large skulls are from Manchuria, not Korea or Russia. Jankowski also saw a white tiger in Manchuria. Manchurian tigers, regarding humans, had a different attitude in that not a few of them considered humans as fair game. There are many rumours about the size of Amur tigers. Today, adult females of 3 years of age or older average 120-125 kg. (266-277 pounds). A century ago, they averaged 137,5 kg. (304 pounds). Adult males today average 420-430 pounds, but a century ago they averaged about 475 pounds. Although the lower average today no doubt is a result of the decision to consider a 3-year old tiger as an adult, I do not doubt that they are not as large as a century ago. The reasons have been discussed many times. The question is if they were larger than typical Amur tigers. Another question is why, if so, that was. We could discuss Bergmann, but I propose to start with opportunity. That and protection. The region were the biggest Amur tigers have been shot could have been an imperial hunting reserve for a long time. This map is from 'The tiger's claw' (Imperial hunting reserve in green):  *This image is copyright of its original author Seen in that light, one wonders if it really was a coincidence that the 11.6 giant giant shot in July 1943 was killed near the upper part of the Sungari River. Georg Jankowski also shot very large tigers in this region. This is a larger map for orientation. It is about the region in the extreme northeast:  *This image is copyright of its original author Based on what was described in some of the books I read, one could conclude that the region just south of the extreme southeast of Russia could have been ideal for tigers 1-2 centuries ago. We could dismiss all old records out of hand, but it is remarkable that captive Amur tigers not seldom are longer, taller and heavier than their wild relatives. Is the smaller size of wild Amur tigers today a result of tough conditions and a population bottleneck? If so, why is it that captive Amur tigers descending from wild tigers captured in the fifties and sixties in Russia, when the conditions were not as good as today, were not affected? Anyway. To show the difference between tigers in Manchuria and those in northern Korea and southeastern Russia, a few pictures to finish the post. This male, shot in 1911 near the border with Korea (so not a Manchurian), is the largest wild Amur tiger accepted by biologists. Apart from his size, this tiger isn't very different from most wild Amur tigers today. He was long (11.7 'over curves') and heavy (560 pounds), but not very robust:  *This image is copyright of its original author To underline the point made, another picture from Baikov. Same period, same region and same type of tiger (long and athletic):  *This image is copyright of its original author This is a tiger of today. Very similar to the ones above, I think:  *This image is copyright of its original author Now for the Manchurians. This is the 11.6 ('over curves') and 660 pound (estimated) giant shot by the Jankowskiy's in 1943 near the Sungari River:  *This image is copyright of its original author This is the captive giant from the Duisburg Zoo. His father was from the Rotterdam Zoo 'Blijdorp'. I talked to the keeper, who has the skin of his father. He told me the father was a descendant of a male captured in extreme south of Russia just after WWII. Could have been a wanderer from the south (Manchuria):  *This image is copyright of its original author The picture below was posted by Amnon. Amur tigers in some zoos and facilities in the Czech Republic and Slovakia are descendants of tigers captured in Russia just after WWII. In the period directly after the war, those in the know distinguished between typical Amur tigers and those who apparently had different genes. They called them the Manchurians. I saw a few of them. They were very tall and robust. Different league. Not saying they were from Manchuria (they were not), but it is possible that some had a connection with Manchuria. In those days, Manchuria still had a few wild Amur tigers. Maybe some of the captive tigers in the Czech republic and Slovakia kept the Manchurian genes:  *This image is copyright of its original author A century ago, wild boars and bears shot in the region close to the alleged former Imperial hunting reserve also were large. Some individuals still are, but there is a difference between a few individuals and an average. These wild boars were shot by G. Jankowski not long after he had moved to Korea. He didn't select them for size. The average of 21, if I remember correctly, was just over 420 pounds:  *This image is copyright of its original author This is a picture of a very large male Amur tiger in a Korean zoo. He had killed his mate. Different from your typical captive Amur tiger and similar to the giants above:  *This image is copyright of its original author Another one. China, I think:  *This image is copyright of its original author One more:  *This image is copyright of its original author Are these robust Amur tigers all a result of individual variation, or was there a difference between Korea, Russia and Manchuria? If so, is it possible that some captive Amur tigers (as well as a few wild ones) carry that gene? I'm not saying all of this is a result of 'The tiger's claw', Brotherbear, but the book definitely raised a number of questions. My advice is to buy it when you can.  (02-06-2017, 11:22 PM)peter Wrote: TIGER AND OLD HUNTER'S TALE, South Korea (2015) That's a very interesting fiction that consists a 900 pounds Amur tiger with the supernatural strength and has decimated an entire battalion of the Imperial Japanese Army. Glad to see this movie now has the English subtitles. 
I have watched that movie twice, once with English subtitles and once in its original build.
But it is quite fiction-filled as well: 1) A tiger at nearly half a ton can't exist in the wild, its biological limits don't allow him to do so. This rule applies to Siberian Tigers especially. 2) How can a good-sized tiger not be able to successfully predate on a full-grown horse? Maybe it was his first time doing so. But overall, it tells the true story of when Japanese invaders (not only in 1910s but in 1500s) poached tigers while invading Korea.
Peter says: Adult males today average 420-430 pounds, but a century ago they averaged about 475 pounds. Although the lower average today no doubt is a result of the decision to consider a 3-year old tiger as an adult,
This has annoyed me for years now! When biologists of a particular location produces an "average weight" for their grizzlies, sub-adult weights are included. Sexually mature does not mean full-grown bears or tigers. I feel certain than when countries give an average size for their men, eleven-year-old boys are not included in the averages. I nearly forgot to mention; I will seek "The Tiger's Claw." 
They took 5+ year old Grizzly's as 'ADULT'
So there is no confusion over average weight of Grizzly's --193 kg (425 pound) is confirmed.  *This image is copyright of its original author Full study. http://www.bearbiology.com/fileadmin/tpl..._Vol_7.pdf
According to the above chart, the average male grizzly 10+ years old is 225.3 kg ( 496.7 pounds ). We would likely see a similar difference with tigers as well.
I still want to know the timing of weights, as we all know they gain(store fat) twice of their weight during winter .... Who knows the average ADULT MALE (5+ yr old ) GRIZZLY weight may come down to 100 kg if we excluded winter weights!!
(02-07-2017, 04:02 PM)Vinay Wrote: I still want to know the timing of weights, as we all know they gain(store fat) twice of their weight during winter .... Who knows the average ADULT MALE (5+ yr old ) GRIZZLY weight may come down to 100 kg if we excluded winter weights!! 5+ year old grizzly? Why a sub-adult? Did you read my post? Normally, for an accurate weight for bears, a summer weight is given. *Vinay... any response to this post, please take it to the topic "Bear Size." We are straying off topic here.
POSTS 1102-1106 - Bears and tigers in the Russian Far East
a - The relation between age and size There's no doubt whatsoever that there is a clear difference between between young adult tigers (3-5 years of age) and mature animals (6 years and older). Same for young adult male brown bears (4-9 years of age) and mature animals (9 years and older). The difference between young adults and mature animals in both species (about 1-4 years) is a result of genes: brown bears live longer than tigers and need more time to mature. The differences between both age groups are expressed at the level of averages. Let's take the table posted as an example. Young adult male grizzly bears in the USA averaged well below 400 pounds, whereas those of 6 years and over, apart from a few exceptions, averaged well over that mark. Bear biologists consider animals of 9 years and older as mature. Mature male brown bears, as Brotherbear wrote, are quite close to 500 pounds. At the level of individuals, however, things are more complicated. A 4-year old male brown bear can be larger and heavier than a 14-year old. b - Disputes at kill-sites In the Russian far East, bears (Himalayan bears and brown bears of all ages, so it seems) often visit tiger kills. Not seldom, tiger and bear meet near these kill sites. At times, conflicts erupt. Some of these end in a tragic way. Bears can displace tigers (and tigresses in particular, according to Seryodkin), but the opposite also is true. Russian biologists concluded bears initiated more fights, whereas tigers won most. As details about these interactions often are lacking, it's difficult to get to conclusions. However. c - Tigers hunting bears Biologists know a bit more about tigers hunting bears. Most of these specialists were older males. Schleyer, who followed the tracks in the snow, concluded the tigers had a clear advantage in that they had about a hundred pounds on the bears they hunted. This, however, wasn't always the case. The largest bears hunted were adult females ranging between 150-200 kg. (visual estimation). Although all bears hunted were killed, it wasn't always easy. Two large females were killed after a 20-minute fight and in both cases the attacker was injured. All bears were killed with a bite to the base of the neck. Biologists long assumed that bears are too dangerous to attack, but in a recent paper they admitted they could have been wrong. Bears apparently are more often hunted than they thought and not all bears were as small as they assumed. d - The difference between a young male brown bear and a mature male of similar weight Tiger 'Boris', although not yet mature, twice killed a bear. In both cases, the bear, if understood correctly, was killed near the kill site. Although details were lacking, biologists concluded the bears could have ranged between 2-4 years of age. Some bears of that age can be as heavy as an adult male tiger (350-450 pounds), but they lack the experience of the tiger and it would be premature to get to conclusions: a 4-year old male brown bear of, say, 380 pounds is a very different animals than a 10-year old brown bear of that weight. If a 4-year old decent-sized male brown bear would be killed in a fight, it doesn't mean a 10-year old of that size would be killed as well. e - Brawls - classified results and authorities According to some AVA-posters, Russian biologists had a sit-down on bears and tigers somewhere in the sixties or seventies of the last century (before the Americans arrived in 1992, that is). They concluded brown bears would win on points. The reason is size. After they exceed, say, 400-450 pounds, males develop extra layers of muscles in the area targeted by tigers in a fight (shoulders and neck). As a result, tigers would need too much time to score a point. Furthermore, while trying to force a decision, they would become vulnarable themselves. One could say, as Pikunov did, that tigers wear themselves out, but one could also say that mature male brown are too large, too robust and too agile to be killed quickly. Furthermore, Russian 'black grizzly's' are known for their disposition (they have killed much more humans than Amur tigers). They also have much larger teeth than their, larger, Kamsjatka relative. Lastly, one has to consider the occupation of both. A tiger, as a professional hunter, would try to avoid injuries: he can hunt again. Russian brown bears can not. At least, not as good as tigers. This is the reason they are willing to take a risk, one would think. But winning on points is different from killing your opponent. In an all-out anything is possible if both are about similar in weight and age. Furthermore, bears of some size have been killed by tigers. Although all of them were non-hibernating males (Shatuns) or bears just out of hibernation who most probably had lost a lot of weight (brown bears can lose 25-30% of their weight during hibernation), the outcome of a fight to the end is anything but clear. Krechmar, a hunter, biologist and undisputed authority on bears and tigers, said big bears would get it their way. But large animals are few and far between and the differences between most male tigers and bears in the Russian far East are limited. There are no consistent winners, he concluded. Vaillant, who talked to many in the know, also wrote tigers avoid big bears. But they are prepared to confront a bear of similar size and, more often than not, are able to get it their way. f - The difference between brawls and a lifestyle Fights at kill-sites, although not very rare, are different from a lifestyle. It is a fact that Amur tigers hunt bears. Black and brown bears. In some regions and some seasons, bears are as important as wild boars and deer, if not more so. Not all bears hunted, as many seem to think, are immatures. Those who got to that conclusion are not operating in the amateur division, but in the Premier League. They published papers and articles and all of them are based on solid research. That should tell you something. I am definitely interested in sit-downs of specialists who knew more than all of us combined and I also agree with their conclusions, but it is a fact that bears are important to Amur tigers. g - My opinion on bears and tigers in the Russian Far East  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author In short:  *This image is copyright of its original author
Size-Parity using tiger vs grizzly as example. There are four methods ( IMO ).
1 - Weight-Parity...... at weight parity the tiger will have a substantial head and body length advantage and a bipedal height advantage of at least a foot ( 30 cm ). 2 - Height/length-Parity...... at equal bipedal height and equal head and body length, the grizzly will have a substantial weight advantage of at least 100 pounds ( 45 kg ). 3 - Mathematical-Size-Parity....... having a mathematician evaluate the length-height-weight differences down to the micro-millimeters and micro-centimeters so that the two wild animals are perfectly paired at exact size-parity. This would be completely fair but also completely illogical and impractical to attempt. 4 - Common Sense Size-Parity....... if the two look to be similar in size at sight without one overwhelmingly towering over or dwarfing the other in size, then we can call this a size-parity face-off - My choice. *Note: Bottom line: Mother Nature seldom arranges a fair fight. I will edit and add to this that ( IMO ) at size parity a mature male grizzly has a 50% chance of defeating a mature male tiger, and vice versa. 
A man eater tiger from Pilibhit, Uttar Pradesh India has been captured by The forest department on 11-feb-2017. According to sources It had killed Six people and badly mauled one lady.
See the below image  *This image is copyright of its original author Image credit to: Rupak De According to Rupak (Today) The man-eater of Pilibhit captured yesterday was brought to Lucknow Zoo - The zoo i visited few day earlier. It had killed six men and mauled a lady. The above image of the animal being transferred from one cage to another because it managed to break one rod of the green cage. Here is the video from news channel (It is in Hindi language). According to Siddharth Singh, one of my friend on FB and living in same city as me (Lucknow) - This is second tiger from Pilibhit which has been successfully tranquilized and rescued by FD Pilibhit.The moment the mob realised that the tiger was sedated they attacked the tiger with Sugarcanes which can be seen in the video. Fact is Fazlur Rahmanfrom KaterniaghatFoundation Kgf and Dr.Utkarsh Shukla Vet from lucknow zoo with Kamal again from Zoo.Mudit Gupta from WWF Dabeer Hasan from WWF .Prem Chandra Pandey from WTI DR. Aeron Visley from WTI Mr.P.P Singh CF made a human ring around the tiger and were beaten up with sugarcanes by locals as they came in the way but refused to move ..Fazlur was pushd and fell on the tiger and so did Zoo vet and took the beating ...mara hai logo ne aur bachaa ke nikala hai in logo ne..Mr VK Singh CF Bareilly ..FD Dudhwa Sunil Chaudhary ..DD Dudhwa Mahaveer Koujalagi ..Dfo Pilibhit ...Mr. Umendra Sharma PCCF WL .. the entire FD team from Uttar Pradesh was present on the spot surrounded by thousands of villagers who wanted to burn the field along with everyone I think it is great Work done by Forest department in Saving the tiger from Locals, But unfortunately this tiger is going to live in Zoo (Probably in Lucknow zoo) for life time. If I will get a chance, I will definitely visit the zoo to see him |
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