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ON THE EDGE OF EXTINCTION - A - THE TIGER (Panthera tigris)

Finland Shadow Offline
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( This post was last modified: 06-22-2021, 09:36 PM by Shadow )

Since these emails seem to interest people and I found these screenshots from my laptop, here is the reason why I personally don´t believe to those recent newspaper articles what comes to Chlamid, Rachel and Ochkarik. I shared this same information already back in 2019. If someone doesn´t believe to these emails, they are free to choose so, but this is what he told back then, so I don´t think that he has had some time travel after these emails to me. Whatever is behind those articles beats me, but when I see two stories in complete contradiction claimed to be from same person, I choose to believe what he told directly to me.

He is difficult person to get in touch, but I don´t share his contact information, too many animal fanatics read these forums and I won´t help any to be in touch with people like Batalov. 



*This image is copyright of its original author




*This image is copyright of its original author



If someone wants to have debate about this matter, I won´t participate. I just tell, that I don´t believe in claims, that Ochkarik would have killed Chlamid back then because these emails from Batalov makes it impossible for me. Everyone who reads this can for sure think themselves how they feel about this issue.
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Apex Titan Offline
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( This post was last modified: 06-22-2021, 10:13 PM by Apex Titan )

(06-22-2021, 09:33 PM)Shadow Wrote: Since these emails seem to interest people and I found these screenshots from my laptop, here is the reason why I personally don´t believe to those recent newspaper articles what comes to Chlamid, Rachel and Ochkarik. I shared this same information already back in 2019. If someone doesn´t believe to these emails, they are free to choose so, but this is what he told back then, so I don´t think that he has had some time travel after these emails to me. Whatever is behind those articles beats me, but when I see two stories in complete contradiction claimed to be from same person, I choose to believe what he told directly to me.

He is difficult person to get in touch, but I don´t share his contact information, too many animal fanatics read these forums and I won´t help any to be in touch with people like Batalov. 



*This image is copyright of its original author




*This image is copyright of its original author



If someone wants to have debate about this matter, I won´t participate. I just tell, that I don´t believe in claims, that Ochkarik would have killed Chlamid back then because these emails from Batalov makes it impossible for me. Everyone who reads this can for sure think themselves how they feel about this issue.


If you don't wanna give Batalov's contact info, then can you contact him and ask him why 3 different articles reported that Ochkarik killed Chlamid?

https://takiedela.ru/2021/02/zoloto-tigrov/




*This image is copyright of its original author


https://habinfo.ru/aleksandr-batalov/


https://infourok.ru/rasskaz-o-vsemirno-i...29910.html


In this documentary, Batalov mentions that the tiger "Ochkarik" fattened up on a bear he crushed and ate: 


*This image is copyright of its original author








In another report, Batalov mentions that Ochkarik fattened up on a bear he killed and ate:


- What plots he gave me! - shows Batalov the photographs he has taken. - Here he ate the bear, see how fat, the stomach is ripped open?"

https://www.hab.kp.ru/daily/26678/3701152/


Can you contact him and ask him what species of bear did Ochkarik kill, eat and severely fatten up on?

And ask him why he told two different journalists that Ochkarik killed and ate Chlamid?

This will clear things up.
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Finland Shadow Offline
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What comes to Chlamid, Rachelle and Ochkarik, for me it´s already old news. What comes to Ochkarik, Batalov has told in past about it, how Ochkarik has killed (that odd translation "crush" is just expression, when some animals manages to kill other, nothing more) some black bears. It´s no news in that way, that tigers do kill also male black bears. News would be only if one day would be found a reliable case in which a tiger would have been confirmed to kill an adult male brown bear.

But contacting Batalov isn´t that easy at all. We had discussion during 2019, some more emails than those two and after that we haven´t discussed. Back then I had to wait 1-2 weeks before he replied and surprised me.

Now I don´t have time or interest to ask more  about this case because whatever he would say, it wouldn´t make these new cases reliable from my point of view. Same person can´t tell two different stories contradicting each others completely and stay credible. 

This is clear case for me. First there is information available from 2017-2018, then that personal communication. And now some newspaper articles with some stories, which don´t fit to earlier things. I think, that there is more than enough to make conclusions.

And what comes to that "ancient" discussion about bears and tigers and how their conflicts end up, I don´t involve to that discussion until something solid and new comes up, which I haven´t seen in years. So I leave that discussion to people who love to go same circle around time after time recycling old things over and over again.

I end this issue from my part here, I shared emails and that´s it. I don´t waste any more time to this topic.
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Apex Titan Offline
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(06-22-2021, 10:18 PM)Shadow Wrote: What comes to Chlamid, Rachelle and Ochkarik, for me it´s already old news. What comes to Ochkarik, Batalov has told in past about it, how Ochkarik has killed (that odd translation "crush" is just expression, when some animals manages to kill other, nothing more) some black bears. It´s no news in that way, that tigers do kill also male black bears. News would be only if one day would be found a reliable case in which a tiger would have been confirmed to kill an adult male brown bear.

But contacting Batalov isn´t that easy at all. We had discussion during 2019, some more emails than those two and after that we haven´t discussed. Back then I had to wait 1-2 weeks before he replied and surprised me.

Now I don´t have time or interest to ask more  about this case because whatever he would say, it wouldn´t make these new cases reliable from my point of view. Same person can´t tell two different stories contradicting each others completely and stay credible. 

This is clear case for me. First there is information available from 2017-2018, then that personal communication. And now some newspaper articles with some stories, which don´t fit to earlier things. I think, that there is more than enough to make conclusions.

And what comes to that "ancient" discussion about bears and tigers and how their conflicts end up, I don´t involve to that discussion until something solid and new comes up, which I haven´t seen in years. So I leave that discussion to people who love to go same circle around time after time recycling old things over and over again.

I end this issue from my part here, I shared emails and that´s it. I don´t waste any more time to this topic.

If you don't want to continue the discussion then thats fine. But its a fact that Batalov personally told two different journalists that Ochkarik killed and ate Chlamid, and there's a reason for this. If only you would contact him again, send him those reports and ask him why he said that. It would clear things up and we can get to a conclusion.

Personally, I believe the tiger killed the huge male bear, why? because Chlamid completely vanished never to be seen again, around the same time Ochkarik appeared in the area to meet the tigress. Even Batalov reported in 2017, that Chlamid stopped pursuing the tigress because of the male tiger 'Ochkarik.'

Just think about it, and see if you would consider contacting Batalov again. This is a interesting case.
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Finland Shadow Offline
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( This post was last modified: 06-23-2021, 04:29 PM by Shadow )

(06-22-2021, 10:35 PM)Apex Titan Wrote:
(06-22-2021, 10:18 PM)Shadow Wrote: What comes to Chlamid, Rachelle and Ochkarik, for me it´s already old news. What comes to Ochkarik, Batalov has told in past about it, how Ochkarik has killed (that odd translation "crush" is just expression, when some animals manages to kill other, nothing more) some black bears. It´s no news in that way, that tigers do kill also male black bears. News would be only if one day would be found a reliable case in which a tiger would have been confirmed to kill an adult male brown bear.

But contacting Batalov isn´t that easy at all. We had discussion during 2019, some more emails than those two and after that we haven´t discussed. Back then I had to wait 1-2 weeks before he replied and surprised me.

Now I don´t have time or interest to ask more  about this case because whatever he would say, it wouldn´t make these new cases reliable from my point of view. Same person can´t tell two different stories contradicting each others completely and stay credible. 

This is clear case for me. First there is information available from 2017-2018, then that personal communication. And now some newspaper articles with some stories, which don´t fit to earlier things. I think, that there is more than enough to make conclusions.

And what comes to that "ancient" discussion about bears and tigers and how their conflicts end up, I don´t involve to that discussion until something solid and new comes up, which I haven´t seen in years. So I leave that discussion to people who love to go same circle around time after time recycling old things over and over again.

I end this issue from my part here, I shared emails and that´s it. I don´t waste any more time to this topic.

If you don't want to continue the discussion then thats fine. But its a fact that Batalov personally told two different journalists that Ochkarik killed and ate Chlamid, and there's a reason for this. If only you would contact him again, send him those reports and ask him why he said that. It would clear things up and we can get to a conclusion.

Personally, I believe the tiger killed the huge male bear, why? because Chlamid completely vanished never to be seen again, around the same time Ochkarik appeared in the area to meet the tigress. Even Batalov reported in 2017, that Chlamid stopped pursuing the tigress because of the male tiger 'Ochkarik.'

Just think about it, and see if you would consider contacting Batalov again. This is a interesting case.
You can believe it of course, I'm not convinced. And why  Chlamid wasn't seen in that area anymore can be explained In many ways. That kind of speculation is endless swamp. 

Poachers, maybe he moved a few hundred km to mate and found a better place what comes to food. If there is bad year with berries for instance, bears start to search food sources and big dominant bear can take over some new area as his domain. Or he can be still there in the same area, just not seen by Batalov or someone else. Unless using carcasses to lure bears to certain places they usually avoid people. Many possibilities. Many people who spend time in the woods where bears live don´t see one during whole lifetime.

In Alaska for instance salmon rivers keep certain bears in same places year after year, but it's not quite the same with inland brown bears. 

One thing, people like Batalov don't report to journalists, they give interviews. Newspaper articles aren't reports. I've seen for instance several articles in which zoo director was asked about a brown bear In the zoo. And in several articles he was told to weight 1000 kg. When I asked directly from the zoo, they told that it was 590 kg in heaviest condition. Quite a different and that's why I don't take some newspaper articles alone as they would be always accurate. This is just the same, I have had direct contact to compare with some random articles. 

I hope that now it's clear how I see this and why. Now I really focus to other things.
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Apex Titan Offline
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( This post was last modified: 06-23-2021, 07:41 PM by Apex Titan )

(06-23-2021, 12:33 AM)Shadow Wrote:
(06-22-2021, 10:35 PM)Apex Titan Wrote:
(06-22-2021, 10:18 PM)Shadow Wrote: What comes to Chlamid, Rachelle and Ochkarik, for me it´s already old news. What comes to Ochkarik, Batalov has told in past about it, how Ochkarik has killed (that odd translation "crush" is just expression, when some animals manages to kill other, nothing more) some black bears. It´s no news in that way, that tigers do kill also male black bears. News would be only if one day would be found a reliable case in which a tiger would have been confirmed to kill an adult male brown bear.

But contacting Batalov isn´t that easy at all. We had discussion during 2019, some more emails than those two and after that we haven´t discussed. Back then I had to wait 1-2 weeks before he replied and surprised me.

Now I don´t have time or interest to ask more  about this case because whatever he would say, it wouldn´t make these new cases reliable from my point of view. Same person can´t tell two different stories contradicting each others completely and stay credible. 

This is clear case for me. First there is information available from 2017-2018, then that personal communication. And now some newspaper articles with some stories, which don´t fit to earlier things. I think, that there is more than enough to make conclusions.

And what comes to that "ancient" discussion about bears and tigers and how their conflicts end up, I don´t involve to that discussion until something solid and new comes up, which I haven´t seen in years. So I leave that discussion to people who love to go same circle around time after time recycling old things over and over again.

I end this issue from my part here, I shared emails and that´s it. I don´t waste any more time to this topic.

If you don't want to continue the discussion then thats fine. But its a fact that Batalov personally told two different journalists that Ochkarik killed and ate Chlamid, and there's a reason for this. If only you would contact him again, send him those reports and ask him why he said that. It would clear things up and we can get to a conclusion.

Personally, I believe the tiger killed the huge male bear, why? because Chlamid completely vanished never to be seen again, around the same time Ochkarik appeared in the area to meet the tigress. Even Batalov reported in 2017, that Chlamid stopped pursuing the tigress because of the male tiger 'Ochkarik.'

Just think about it, and see if you would consider contacting Batalov again. This is a interesting case.
You can believe it of course, I'm not convinced. And why  Chlamid wasn't seen in that area anymore can be explained In many ways. That kind of speculation is endless swamp. 

Poachers, maybe he moved a few hundred km to mate and found a better place what comes to food. If there is bad year with berries for instance, bears start to search food sources and big dominant bear can take over some new area as his domain. Or he can be still there in the same area, just not seen by Batalov or someone else. Unless using carcasses to lure bears to certain places they usually avoid people. Many possibilities. Many people who spend time in the woods where bears live don´t see one during whole lifetime.

In Alaska for instance salmon rivers keep certain bears in same places year after year, but it's not quite the same with inland brown bears. 

One thing, people like Batalov don't report to journalists, they give interviews. Newspaper articles aren't reports. I've seen for instance several articles in which zoo director was asked about a brown bear In the zoo. And in several articles he was told to weight 1000 kg. When I asked directly from the zoo, they told that it was 590 kg in heaviest condition. Quite a different and that's why I don't take some newspaper articles alone as they would be always accurate. This is just the same, I have had direct contact to compare with some random articles. 

I hope that now it's clear how I see this and why. Now I really focus to other things.


Why are you so hesitant and unwilling to contact Batalov again? I don't understand. You don't wanna give his contact info, and yet you also won't contact him, why?

Batalov, even in the documentary, specifically mentioned that Ochkarik crushed and devoured a bear, to the point where he fattened up a lot. In several articles, it mentions that Ochkarik fattened up to the point that it shocked Batalov. Sounds like a large bear was killed and eaten by Ochkarik. I wanna know which species of bear this was?

Those were not "newspaper" articles, those were just articles published by Russian journalists who interviewed and received all their info from Batalov himself, personally. So its a fact that Batalov told them that Ochkarik killed Chlamid, confirmed by two different journalists. There's also a 3rd article reporting this case. How comes?

You had direct contact via email, NOT face-to-face, whereas two different journalists had face-to-face contact with Batalov and received their information from him, first-hand. Big difference.

Quote:Poachers, maybe he moved a few hundred km to mate and found a better place what comes to food. If there is bad year with berries for instance, bears start to search food sources and big dominant bear can take over some new area as his domain. Or he can be still there in the same area, just not seen by Batalov or someone else. Unless using carcasses to lure bears to certain places they usually avoid people. Many possibilities. Many people who spend time in the woods where bears live don´t see one during whole lifetime.

In Alaska for instance salmon rivers keep certain bears in same places year after year, but it's not quite the same with inland brown bears. 


This is pure speculation and guesswork. According to the actual report, Batalov and the hunting experts believe that the huge brown bear fled because of the tiger 'Ochkarik'.


"Hunting experts believe that a tigress with many children complained about the bear to the father of her children."

- Some time ago, she roared in a special way in the taiga, as far as we understand, she complained about the bear to the bespectacled tiger that walks nearby. He is the father of Rachelle's children, we have recorded several times that they meet regularly. And at the moment, the bear (we gave him the nickname Chlamyda, because he is incredibly huge) has moved away from her and is not pursuing her, ” Alexander Batalov, director of the Durminskoye forestry and hunting farm, told the Khabarovsk Krai Today news agency

https://www.todaykhv.ru/news/incident/9372/



Note, Batalov clearly stated "At that moment", which means that at that moment and time, when the tigress contacted the tiger 'Ochkarik', the big bear 'Chlamid' immediately stopped pursuing her and left the area. Do you see any obvious link between the two?

This makes sense too, because based off decades of scientific research and evidence, it shows that even very large male brown bears avoid adult male tigers, they only ( occasionally ) target tigresses. And Ochkarik is a very dominant male tiger that specializes in hunting and killing bears.


Based on the actual report, testimony from Batalov and tell-tale signs, it clearly indicates that Chlamid fled the area because of the tiger 'Ochkarik'. The tiger could have later hunted Chlamid down, killed and ate him.
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Finland Shadow Offline
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( This post was last modified: 06-24-2021, 06:14 AM by Shadow )

I put some extra info. I checked and I had shared one email from Batalov in moderator discussions in July 2019, but at that time there were some other things going on and it wasn´t discussed more at the time. It also explains why you @peter couldn´t know all what I got to know during discussions with him, sorry for that.


So why I´m not convinced of these couple of relatively new articles comes from that time.

One thing is, that when I asked about bear-tiger confrontations, I specifically asked from him if he knows any case in which a tiger would have killed an adult male brown bear. He didn´t give even one such case. 

Again, I asked specifically about Chlamid and what happend and does he know how he is? And Batalov had no idea. And this is one thing to take into account since our discussion happened in July 2019, over 1,5 years after those articles about Chlamid and Rachel. If Ochkarik would have made a move as "revenge", which I personally don´t see as realistic option in any way, it would have happened already in late 2017 or early 2018 and Batalov would have known about it. But he didn´t.

And if I now would be again lucky and get in contact with him, he can´t change it. If he would say, that ”yeah, Ochkarik killed Chlamid” he would contarict with himself completely and lose all credibility what comes to that case.

If he would say, what seems to be obvious, that inaccurate articles, or that he just gave a good story even though not exactly what happened, it would just confirm what he told already earlier. But both possibilities just keep situation as it is, there are no reliable and confirmed cases of tigers killing adult male brown bears in RFE. That´s why I don´t see it relevant or important to even to try ask from him now anything.

I have read from somewhere, that he is a man with many stories and in such way, that journalist wasn´t 100% convinced, that all what Batalov tells is 100% true. Even though he is one great conservationist and undeniably knows tigers and bears. But it can be, that he has something similar as Corbett for instance, great legacy as naturalist and conservationist, but also telling some stories for entertainment partially, to give people some myths even though not necassarily true... I can´t blame him if so, his great work for tigers will be his legacy and he is worth of tremendous respect. But he has also that ecosafari business, good stories can lure some people, paying customers.

Good to remember, that a made up story (if so) for a tiger killing a bear even when not happened, isn´t a big deal in any way. It´s a big deal only for a very small number of people. So I can´t blame Batalov if he has done so.


What comes to good stories. When thinking what happened 2017. A big male bear followed tigress usurping her kills for some period of time. Then tigress was told to ”scream” in odd way causing bear to move away. Nice story and when first reading about it, big temptation to believe it. But at this age I can´t anymore take good stories as they would be actually what happened always.

When thinking situation, a big male brown bear following a tigress maybe 1/3 of his own size or even less, it for sure can´t roar or ”scream” in any way causing the bear to do more than snort nonchalantly while continuing following. Only if that sound was so odd, that bear would have confused it to possible people near, it might have caused it to move away. Bears avoid people, not an animal which it is used to ”rob” time after time.

What comes to it, that Batalov has used expression ”at that moment bear stopped following her”, he can´t know it. He has seen Chlamid in photos from camera trap, not being right after him, when ”scream” of Rachel was heard in the forest, assuming that it was really tigress making that sound and not some other animal. Metaphors are used often in text, but sometimes it´s good to use some time to think about real situations and what is possible to know for anyone and what are guesses and assumptions.

And from here we get to another part of that story. Batalov told in one article, that they sent hunters to track Chlamid and kill it, because they were worried about cubs of Rachel and how they survive if Chlamid continues to harass her and taking all her kills. It was told, that they had still permit to shoot one bear in that hunting season. And when using common sense, this is the reason why Chlamid moved away and disappeared. When a bear is hunted by people, it does all it can to escape from that situation. Without dogs it´s hard work to find a bear in the forest. So I´m not surprised when I saw Batalov telling, that they didn´t manage to find and shoot Chlamid.

And here again one contradiction and odd thing. If alleged tiger scream was seen to make a bear to go away, how come hunters were needed to send to hunt the bear to protect cubs as was told?? There was no danger anymore if bear went away after all. So I have to assume, that bear didn´t care about that sound and hunters were sent to kill it. Leading to it, that bear noticed people before they noticed him and went away.


And because all what I´ve seen lately about Chlamid and Ochkarik has been speculation, I will put here some more. While one possibility is, that Chlamid managed to avoid hunters and find a place to hibernate, there is another possibility too. Some hunters might have found it and poached it at the time. Or came back later, with knowledge where they can find him and then later poached it. That big bear is very tempting to any poacher.

Many possibilities what happened back then.


Then these new articles. Three articles and when I briefly looked those, three different stories.

In one a bear vanished and some remains found from tiger excrement.

In another story bear vanished and only heels found.... well, if only heels found, it would be a very old ”carcass” and eaten by all possible scavengers and not anymore too much possibilites to figure out what happened to it.

Then in third story already cubs of Rachel had died to starvation because of following bear. But in 2019 Batalov mentioned that cubs of Rachel were already two years old and starting to hunt separately, I have heard about many things, but not about dead cubs hunting.

So when I read three different articles with quite different stories, I start to wonder is the problem reporters or the changing story. Usually when people tell from their fresh memory, they tell same story to different people, because they don´t need to try to focus to remember what they told last time. But when story comes from imagination it tends to variate even in short time, because there is no real memory to use.


I respect Batalov a lot and I hope that these new stories suddenly out of nowhere are sloppy journalism, because other option is that Batalov lose some credibility. Too big contradiction.

All in all, personally I still wait if some day a solid case is found in which adult male brown bear would have been killed by a tiger. Then again I wonder sometimes, why I wait it? What if one day it happens? Does it change something in big picture?

Nope. If one credible case can be found once or twice in a century or two, it´s practically nothing. It´s one reason why I have lost a lot of interest to this topic. Quite obvious thing is, that male brown bears do need to worry about people, not about tigers. And pretty much vice versa, male brown bears don´t disturb male tigers too often.

This is how I see things, some others see in some other way. But it´s always so, when there is no solid proof to one way or another. I consider only one thing proven, what comes to Chlamid, Rachel and Ochkarik. I believe, that Chlamid followed Rachel at least some time because those camera trap photos seem to be ok. And of course it, that Chlamid was and can still be quite  big boy, no matter in what way I have looked those photos, his shoulder height is very impressive.
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Netherlands peter Offline
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( This post was last modified: 06-25-2021, 06:11 AM by peter )

SHADOW

The story on tigress 'Rachelle', tiger 'Ochkarik' and brown bear 'Chlamyda' is of interest to those who want to know a bit more about interactions between Amur tigers and Ussuri brown bears in the Russian Far East. The aim of the debate initiated by 'Apex Titan' is to get to answers to a number of questions. In your last post, which was both lengthy and interesting, you made it clear you're not interested in participating. This decision will be respected, meaning we will continue without you. 

As to your last post. The issues raised are of interest to those who read the story. For this reason, it doesn't seem superfluous to respond to some of them. 

Communication between wild tigers

Tigers are solitary animals. This, however, doesn't mean they never interact with other tigers. Male tigers have large territories. Although other adult males are not tolerated, females are. Research has shown that males often visit females with cubs. What is known, suggests male tigers are very aware of the cubs they fathered. When a tigress with cubs is killed, male tigers not seldom take care of the cubs. 

All of this suggests tigers are able to communicate with each other over distance. One of the means used is sound. Those who know (referring to Forest Officers and hunters in what used to be British India) agreed tigers use different sounds to interact. I'm not saying tigress 'Rachelle' was able to give a detailed description of the bear stalking and robbing her, but it is a fact the father of the cubs, tiger 'Ochkarik', quickly responded to her call.  

A video of their meeting was posted in this thread. I'm quite sure 'Ochkarik' was trying to reassure tigress 'Rachelle'. My guess is the big brown bear wasn't far away when 'Rachelle' called. He most probably also knew about the visit of 'Ochkarik'. Was this the reason he decided the time had arrived to leave? We'll never know. What we do know (referring to the interviews), is he left directly after tiger 'Ochkarik' visited tigress 'Rachelle'.

Wild tigers, as you most probably know, are known to lure some of the animals they hunt. Again, they use sound. Tigers, therefore, are able to mimic the sound of animals they hunt. This was observed in just about every region.  

The conclusion is wild tigers use sound to communicate with other tigers and to lure animals they hunt. This means they're quite able in this department. So much so, one has to take the words of Batalov serious. 

Anything to add? Yes. 

A number of years ago, I often visited a facility that had big cats. One day, the director called to tell me 7 captive Amur tigers had just arrived. He invited me to measure and weigh them. A few days later, I was there. The backside of the cages of the Amur tigers were largely blocked by wooden shelves. In spite of that, they were standing on their hind legs intently staring at something they couldn't see. That 'something' was a big male brown bear living in a cage about 50 meters away. The bear couldn't see the tigers. I positioned myself between both cages and felt something difficult to describe. A kind of vibration caused by a low frequency sound, I would say. I walked to the cage of the bear and saw he was terrified. A few weeks later, he was moved to another facility.  

Batalov

You showed us part of a conversation with Batalov. In July 2019, he said he had no idea about the whereabouts of 'Chlamyda'. He only knew he had left and hadn't been seen again. Credible? I think so. About a year later, in two different articles published in Russian magazins, Batalov said he was sure the big bear had been killed and eaten by 'Ochkarik'. A very different conclusion. Also credible? I think there's no reason to doubt his words. 

I recently talked to a few people about Batalov's opinion in 2019 and his opinion in 2021. They know nothing about tigers and bears, but they do know a few things about research and conclusions. They told me both answers do not have to be contradictory. Meaby Batalov really had no idea in 2019 and meaby he discovered something that took away all doubt not much later. It could be he discovered something he considered as compelling evidence.   

Tigers and bears in the Russian Far East

Over a century ago, Baikov wrote Amur tigers hunt bears almost up to their own size. Is there recent evidence of Amur tigers hunting largish bears? Evidence collected by biologists? Yes. More than once, they found the remains of adult female Ussuri brown bears killed by male Amur tigers. Most of the females killed were smaller, but at least two were about as heavy (150-200 kg). Are adult male brown bears included? Although there is some evidence male bears have been killed by male tigers in the period 1943-1960, most researchers think adult male brown bears are immune from predation.  

In the last decade in particular, however, opinions seem to have changed somewhat. Miquelle, who initially thought bears were 'too risky' to hunt, admitted he could have been wrong. Biologists found the remains of an immature, but quite large, male. They also concluded tigresses were more often involved in bears than they thought. A few years ago, it was discovered that some of the collared youngsters 'educated' in a rehabilitation center had learned to kill bears as well. One of them is 'Borya' (Boris), also known as 'Putin's tiger'. At a young age, this male killed at least 2 (youngish) bears and he wasn't the only one.  

Collared tigers offer biologists insight in the actual behaviour of tigers. A few years ago, those monitoring tiger 'Borya' discovered that he and a tigress he had met had hunted together. One of the animals they killed was an adult bear. I knew about tigers hunting together in India, but never read anything about a male and a female hunting bears together in the Russian Far East.

Questions 

Those interested in tigers and bears in the Russian Far East often debate about male tigers and male brown bears. Is an average male brown bear really out of the predatory reach of an average male Amur tiger if we add an adult tigress was able to kill a heavier brown bear (referring to the incident near the Tatibe River described by Bromlej)? Why is it tigers hunt brown bears in summer and fall in particular, when bears are close to their peak weight? Why is it some reports about 'large' bears killed by male tigers are dismissed, whereas reports about tigers killed by large bears, also lacking crucial information, are not? And what about the make-up of both species? Is an aggressive interaction between adult males limited to one fysical fight, or is there more to it? What's really going on between tigers and brown bears and why is it opinions and conclusions of biologists often are contradictory?  

What I'm saying, to conclude the post, is a debate would be of interest. We could continue swimming in circles (referring to opinions, heated discussions and all the rest of it), but I would prefer to talk to a man who really knows about both species. In order to prevent chaos, my proposal is to ask only one of us to contact him. 

In my opinion, 'Nyers' is the best possible candidate. He recently succeeded in contacting Batalov and offered to translate questions of members into Russian. A great opportunity to talk to a man who really knows about tigers and bears in the Russian Far East, I think.

If you change your opinion on participating, just say so.
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Finland Shadow Offline
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( This post was last modified: 06-24-2021, 08:52 PM by Shadow )

@peter  Yes, I won´t participate in debate for the reasons I mentioned. At this point, as I said, in my point of view Batalov can basically only confirm what he told earlier or contradict with himself and neither option brings nothing new to big picture. Also if he would suddenly change his story and then if trying to find out what is really true, it would demand kind of "interrogation" meaning several messages going back and forth. I don´t think that he would like it and I for sure hate to do such thing to a person who I respect a lot. As I mentioned, I see Batalov as a great conservationist and his work for tigers has been and is so important, that this kind of minor issue, when thinking about it really, isn´t worth to cause inconvenience for a man, whose real work is so important.

I don´t think how many people think about things in this way too, when eagerly wanting to know things. Because this issue, even though some interest towards it, is after all minor and insignificant matter in comparison to other points of views, I have chosen not to have such discussion with him. Naturally I will read too if he tells to Nyers something to see, if he really contradicts with himself or not. 

It can be, that I have some discussion with him too about other things, but with him it´s pretty much about it, if he has time and/or interest to change some thoughts. I have some personal matters of interests making me often to contact to different biologists, or at least trying to contact them. With some it´s easier and with some it´s no so easy.

But to keep this short, that might open up a little more why I don´t try to start to grill Batalov for Chlamid anymore. 

What comes to it, how I see adult male brown bears and adult male tiger interactions and possible conflicts in RFE, I consider as reliable those which are mentioned in scientific studies as confirmed. I haven´t found any adult male brown bears in that list. Then again do I think, that it would be impossible, that there would be some adult male bears killed by male tigers, no. I don´t think, that it would be impossible as I have never done, I see it just as pretty rare thing to happen. Already it, that from a time period of approximately two centuries there are 3-4 cases in which it might have happened but never proven points out strongly to that direction, that very rare. If one day one could be found and proven as a really solid case it would naturally confirm, what I (and I think, that you too) have guessed all the time. I of course believe myself, that there are some adult male tigers too, which have tried their luck one step too far with a male brown bear. Reason is, that in confirmed cases there are some subadult/young adult male tigers killed by male brown bears and in some more vague situations it´s mentioned that male bears have bullied also male tigers in rare occasions.

I think, that this matter is to all, who are interested a mix based on solid and confirmed cases and then unconfirmed older stories. And all approach this matter from own perspectives. So while in some issues there can be agreement, in some others there isn´t and I don´t think that never will when there is any room for speculation. That´s why I don´t start to debate, because in this matter it leads to dead end. When I write, I tell how I see certain things. As always some others see in other way and so on. 

I always read with certain interest what kind of things are found out and how credible they look like. But I won´t go to endless yes/no debate, when I see, that too much speculation is possible in different ways. I see it way more convenient to open up how I see certain things and then every reader can decide themselves if they see there some good points or not.
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Apex Titan Offline
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@Shadow 

I've noticed that 99% of your posts are based on speculation and guesswork, on top of that, your ignoring my questions. Again, for some reason, your very hesitant and unwilling to contact Batalov, why? Is it because you know that he'll tell you that Ochkarik killed Chlamid?

Its a fact that Ochkarik killed and ate a bear, which he severely fattened up on, now which bear was this? Sounds like a large bear. This could have been Chlamid.

Then you accuse a highly respected authority like Batalov of making up stories for entertainment, which is a BIG claim that you need solid evidence to support, but you can't. Where's your proof? You then compare Batalov to Jim Corbett, but here's the big difference you need to realize, Corbett was a British hunter, tracker and author of popular literature books, whereas Batalov is a renowned scientific expert, biologist and conservationist who has published over 40 scientific studies on tiger behaviour and sustainable forestry. He's also one of Russia's top leading bear specialists and the director of the Durminskoye Forest Reserve. Now where's the comparison?

You can't compare Corbett to Batalov, period. Its a terrible comparison.

You also claimed that male brown bears don't have to worry about tigers, based on what evidence? Lev Kaplanov, ( Considered by many as the greatest Amur tiger biologist ) observed a very large male brown bear showing blatant fear of tigers and retreating from a male tigers tracks:




*This image is copyright of its original author



https://aboutzoos.info/images/stories/fi...e_Alin.pdf


Now, why did a very large male brown bear retreat from a male tigers tracks and flee from a tiger family?  And why did John Vaillant ( who interviewed many experts ) state that even a 1000 lb brown bear has been known to flee at the sight of a tiger?

There is no clear evidence that proves that male brown bears have "nothing to worry" about from tigers. The account from Kaplanov shows that at least some individual ( Even huge males ) male brown bears do fear tigers. The very large male brown bear in the Kaplanov account clearly behaved in a way which showed that the bear sensed its predator.

In his publication on the summer life of Amur tigers, Batalov reported that tigers regularly prey on bears in the summer, and some individual male tigers will attack almost any bear:


"In the summer, the tigers' food intake increases: except ungulates, badgers, raccoon dogs and bears are increasingly appearing in the diet. At the same time, the pressure of predation on ungulates decreases. This is explained by with the appearance of broods, adult females of deer and wild boars become secretive and live in a limited area. Badgers and bears, on the other hand, lead an active lifestyle, especially at twilight and at night. Moving noisily in the forest in search of food or mates, they become easy prey for tigers. Adult male tigers, depending on states of hunger and self-confidence can attack almost any animal."


You stated that Ochkarik taking revenge is "not a realistic option", again based on what evidence though?  Its a well known fact, reported by numerous experts, that tigers are very vindictive and vengeful animals that have been documented doing premeditated revenge killings. Batalov also stated this, that tigers are clever with a capacity for premeditated revenge. So its very likely that Ochkarik took revenge on the huge bear and killed him.

Based on observations made by biologists and hunters, tigers will even kill bears solely on principle:




*This image is copyright of its original author



The problem here is, that your ignoring evidence and observations made by actual experts, and basing your opinion off of pure speculation and your own made-up theories. We need facts and evidence, not opinions and speculations.

Again, there is a confirmed account proving that even some very large male brown bears show fear of tigers, so its more than likely that Chlamid got scared and avoided Ochkarik. After all, even Batalov and the hunting experts thought that this was the case. Batalov never once stated that he thinks the bear fled because of the hunters, he specifically reported that it was because of the tiger Ochkarik.

You complain about speculations, but thats what you do most of the time. All you have to do is contact Batalov again and ask him, so we can clear this up, but your refusing too.

You can make all the claims you want about tigers and bears in the RFE, but at least post the evidence and accounts to back up your claims. Otherwise your claims are meaningless.

We need to post evidence to avoid a fruitless discussion, agree?

And in those articles, it wasn't "different stories" told, it was just different DETAILS mentioned by the journalists, nothing contradictory though. Remember, those articles were about Batalov's life, work and experiences, not about the Ochkarik and Chlamid incident. That case was mentioned briefly, so whats the big deal? The journalists don't have to go into full details about that case.
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Apex Titan Offline
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@peter 

Quote:Collared tigers offer biologists insight in the actual behaviour of tigers. A few years ago, those monitoring tiger 'Borya' discovered that he and a tigress he had met had hunted together. One of the animals they killed was an adult bear. I knew about tigers hunting together in India, but never read anything about a male and a female hunting bears together in the Russian Far East.


I don't think that the tiger 'Borya' and tigress were literally hunting adult bears together, I think that was just the wording of the report, thats confusing. According to first-hand info from Russian specialists, the juvenile tiger 'Borya' aka Boris, single-handedly hunted and killed an adult brown bear.


In the meantime, the authorities of the Oktyabrsky and Zavitinsky districts, knowing about Boris's movements, advise local residents not to take dogs with them into the forest, so as not to provoke the tiger. People are also forbidden to approach the remains of animals, as they can be Boris's prey. It is known for certain that he had a successful hunt for an adult brown bear. 

https://vladnews.ru/ev/vl/3749/104508/tigry_leopardy


Here's the first-hand report:

Tiger Boris remained on the territory of the Amur Region. He repeatedly made forays into the Jewish Autonomous Region, but regularly returned to the place of release. Hoofed prey was not a problem for him. Once a case of hunting an adult brown bear was recorded.

http://tiger.sevin-expedition.ru/news/news_144.html
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( This post was last modified: 06-24-2021, 11:14 PM by Apex Titan )

@Shadow 

I just wanna add one more thing. Like I said before, its not clear that adult male brown bears are always "avoided" and have "nothing to worry" about from tigers, as the accounts I posted in my previous posts suggests otherwise and the following accounts.

Vaillant, who interviewed many experts ( biologists, zoologists, locals ) stated that: "There is no creature in the taiga that is off limits to the tiger."  Amur tigers are known to kill and eat everything from salmon, ducks to adult brown bears:




*This image is copyright of its original author



https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=WGvV...rs&f=false



There's also this confirmed account of a tiger that hunted and killed a male brown bear:  ( Its possible that this male bear was an adult bear )


"In the winter of 1982, the main forester of the reserve Kirst and A.D Saiko observed the pursuit by a tiger of a male brown bear for more than 500 meters. Attacking a bear running away along the valley of the key from the terrace of the narrow end of the water business, and without killing him, the tiger slipped to intercept the bear hundreds of meters from where it made a new attack from an ambush, trying to cling to his neck, the tiger managed to get a male bear as a result." 




*This image is copyright of its original author


*This image is copyright of its original author




https://www.researchgate.net/publication...is_altaica



There's also this account of a tiger that hunted down, attacked and mauled a huge brown bear: ( Most definitely a very large male brown bear )




*This image is copyright of its original author




"At one point he turned aside and describing a semicircle obviously headed to intercept the bear. Tigers always do that."...





*This image is copyright of its original author





"There was blood on the snow, and tufts of the bear's coat all over the place."...





*This image is copyright of its original author




There's also this account of a tiger hunting down a large brown bear, possibly a big male bear:


"We sped along, and as a result almost missed a tiger spoor - yet another one, and in this case along the path. It was following the fresh bear track!..."




*This image is copyright of its original author




*This image is copyright of its original author


*This image is copyright of its original author


*This image is copyright of its original author


https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=SoAM...h.&f=false

This account specifically mentions that the tiger was "steadfastly" following after the large brown bear. i.e. Hunting in an unwavering and determined manner.

Based off evidence and some reliable accounts, it indicates that some individual experienced male tigers will attempt to hunt and kill an adult male brown bear. I don't think a large male brown bear is "immune" to predation from an experienced adult male tiger.
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Finland Shadow Offline
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( This post was last modified: 06-24-2021, 11:18 PM by Shadow )

@Apex Titan

I´m not interested about old things recycled over and over again. So you can save your time with me when you do so. What I´m interested is, when something new comes up. So you don´t need to tag me to postings with old material.

And if you missed my earlier postings, I have already contacted Batalov in 2019 and I asked what happened to Chlamid and he didn´t know. So when speculating with it, what happened to Chlamid, it can´t be even known if he is dead or alive today. You can speculate in one way and many others speculate in another way. I hope, that this clears up now situation. I already shared screenshot of email from Batalov, it´s in this thread, when you roll this thread backwards a bit. I suggest that you read it.
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( This post was last modified: 06-24-2021, 11:21 PM by Apex Titan )

(06-24-2021, 11:13 PM)Shadow Wrote: @Apex Titan

I´m not interested about old things recycled over and over again. So you can save your time with me when you do so. What I´m interested is, when something new comes up. So you don´t need to tag me to postings with old material.

Some of these accounts I posted are not "old" and "recycled", I found some of these accounts in recent years that were never posted on the old AVA forums or tiger vs bear debates. And you know it.

Quote:And if you missed my earlier postings, I have already contacted Batalov in 2019 and I asked what happened to Chlamid and he didn´t know. So when speculating with it, what happened to Chlamid, it can´t be even known if he is dead or alive today. You can speculate in one way and many others speculate in another way. I hope, that this clears up now situation. I already shared screenshot of email from Batalov, it´s in this thread, when you roll this thread backwards a bit. I suggest that you read it.

And yet you refuse to contact Batalov again.  The rest of your statement has been already addressed and explained to you by me and Peter.
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Finland Shadow Offline
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( This post was last modified: 06-24-2021, 11:40 PM by Shadow )

I just got private message from @Nyers.

"Hi
I still have no access to topic
Can u wrute that Batalov never and nowhere stated that the killed brown bear and the bear nicknamed Chlamyda are the same bear

And the video to which he refers was filmed at the end of 2016 - at the beginning of 2017 - before the events with the bear Chlamyda and the tigress Raschel"

"He" in second sentence means @Apex Titan
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