Notch Coalition Male Lineage

[Pckts]

(04-23-2015, 11:52 PM)'Amnon242' Wrote:

(04-22-2015, 10:39 PM)'sanjay' Wrote: Well, I got some information from the facebook page Notch the Lion-King of the Mara and His Five Sons .
I asked for some weight and body dimension measurement and I got the following figures for the notches

Quote:They are quite large males ,you are looking at around 230kg - 255kg when they have eaten.
Around 9ft long and 4.5 tall.
230 kg without a meal.
Around 240 in migration period due to lots of food, then 260 after eating
 

I have also asked for the source of this information and waiting for the answer. The page owner of the Notch the Lion-King of the Mara and His Five Sons, Is very mature and seems to be very knowledgeable person.


 

Sanjay, 4,5 height is certainly very exaggerated and it undermines the credibility of the source (btw "230kg - 255kg when they have eaten" vs "230 kg without a meal").

Ok... 230 kg empty? Hm, extremely heavy lions. Average serengetti males are around 180 kg (I dont know if empty - other posters could clarifiy that). I dont know how what is the weight of these lions and I dont want to estimate them via photos or videos, but what I know is that 200 kg empty lion is a very huge beast (for lion fans I have to add that the same goes for 230 kg empty tiger).

Another point is alleged growth of new lion generations...what is the explanation? Why should they be bigger? More food? Probably no, because more food = more lions.  

 

Thats why I never ask photographers or fan page admins about weight, I like to strictly compare their eye witness observations. Most people, even naturalists and sactuary attendents are not as knowledgable about big cat wieghts and sizes as we are. They can certainly give us great eye witness accounts, unknown behaviors and predations but most of the time, the only people who truly know the size of these animals are verified biologists and forest dep't and we all know how extremely hard it is to get these weights from them after they have taken it.

Almost frustrating at times, imagine how many cats in Ranth have been weighed and measured yet we can't even get a single one.


  Reply

[Amnon242]

(04-24-2015, 12:17 AM)'Pckts' Wrote:  Almost frustrating at times, imagine how many cats in Ranth have been weighed and measured yet we can't even get a single one.

 

These information are important...but there are other important things in life...for instance health, family and so on... dont be frustrated, be happy :)

  Reply

[sanjay]

I agree on shoulder height. But for the other values, I am not sure. I am still waiting for the response of the Notches page admin.
For now I will go with previous records as you guys suggested because it has certain degree of credibility.
If the admin of Notches page able to provide solid source for his data, I will definitely consider them. For me Notches are little different than others lions, They (specially Ceaser ) are considered a quite big specimen among wildlife photographers and people who have seen them live in recent years.
Just like some particular tigers can weigh more than 250KG (while others 200-220KG from same area), I think these notches boys would surprise us with their weight measurements.
Note that, I am not discussing about an area (serengetti, etc) but of some particular lions. Reply

[Pckts]

(04-24-2015, 12:22 AM)'sanjay' Wrote: I agree on shoulder height. But for the other values, I am not sure. I am still waiting for the response of the Notches page admin.
For now I will go with previous records as you guys suggested because it has certain degree of credibility.
If the admin of Notches page able to provide solid source for his data, I will definitely consider them. For me Notches are little different than others lions, They (specially Ceaser ) are considered a quite big specimen among wildlife photographers and people who have seen them live in recent years.
Just like some particular tigers can weigh more than 250KG (while others 200-220KG from same area), I think these notches boys would surprise us with their weight measurements.
Note that, I am not discussing about an area (serengetti, etc) but of some particular lions.

 

The notch boys are infamous though, they are probably the most popular and viewed lions today but like Anjan said, Lions in africa are all the same size to him.
That includes what many of us consider to be the largest, Ngorongo Crater lions.
Take individual estimates for what they are worth, out of all the lions measured throughout time, these includes lions from all over Africa. You have one or two specimens reaching the 250+kg plus mark, verified. But you have literally 100s that are between the 180kg-220kg mark. If going off of odds, I would venture to guess that of the number of Lions weighed and verified, lions weighing over 225kg would be in the 2-4% mark. I would be curious to see how close that estimate is to fact, but I would guarantee its extremely rare. There are large lions all over, I highly doubt these Notch boys are any bigger than Kruger lions, Crater Lions, Tsavo lions, etc. Maybe one individual is larger or smaller but average out, I would guess them to be in the averages of most african lions. I don't see any reason why they wouldn't be, it just doesn't make sense to me.
  Reply

[sanjay]

Mr. Pckts, You seems to be again in debate with me. At one time you are quoting Anjan and on other hand you said we should not believe on naturalists.
I already said I am talking about particular Lions not whole lions. If I think these lions may be of weight range 220KG+, then what wrong in it ?
I said Its my estimate only. May be I am wrong but there is no weight measurement available form any reliable source, So I am going with my guess, even the page admin of Notches is very mature man. I am following him since last year, And if you are normal human being you can easily conclude about anyone.
So, I request you either not comment here or go and talk about these Notches and put your thought with their conclusion.
Don't try to contradict others thought always without any solid reason. Reply

[GuateGojira]

(04-24-2015, 12:06 AM)'Amnon242' Wrote:

(04-23-2015, 09:25 AM)'GuateGojira' Wrote: A shoulder height of 4.5 ft (137 cm)????????

Jajajajaja, not even the giant Panthera atrox or the Ngandong tiger were so tall at the shoulders!!! [img]http://www.hdwallpapersos.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/maned-wolf-1920x1080-wallpaper-2220683.jpg" class="lozad max-img-size" alt="" title="">

*This image is copyright of its original author

Cats have proportions, even the cheetah had it, although somewhat more elongated. The guy that stated those figures have no idea about cat proportions. [img]images/smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]
  Reply

[Pckts]

(04-24-2015, 10:28 AM)'sanjay' Wrote: Mr. Pckts, You seems to be again in debate with me. At one time you are quoting Anjan and on other hand you said we should not believe on naturalists.
I already said I am talking about particular Lions not whole lions. If I think these lions may be of weight range 220KG+, then what wrong in it ?
I said Its my estimate only. May be I am wrong but there is no weight measurement available form any reliable source, So I am going with my guess, even the page admin of Notches is very mature man. I am following him since last year, And if you are normal human being you can easily conclude about anyone.
So, I request you either not comment here or go and talk about these Notches and put your thought with their conclusion.
Don't try to contradict others thought always without any solid reason.

 

Gaute and Amnon both offer their disbelief in the measurements given, same as me.
I "tried to contradict" no one, simply stated that the alleged measurements given are probably estimated and I did give reasoning behind it.
 I quoted Anjan for Eye witness accounts, not for weight. Which is what I said to begin with and thats what I was saying when the Admin quoted #'s not eye witness accounts,if you have a photographer who says, "I have seen lions from here and here and those are larger than these", that would be evidence of specific lions being larger than others. That's all I was saying, compared to an admin giving actual numbers that are most likely estimates while not knowing if said Admin is even a naturalist or biologist.
I hope you see my reasoning here... Reply

[sanjay]

@Pckts You win and Now please don't hijack this thread. Reply

[sanjay]

Lion king Ceaser with Notch 2 (sitting aside) from Masai Mara

*This image is copyright of its original author

  Reply

[Pantherinae]

Notch boys are in another league compared to other males I saw in Masai Mara. And they where smaller and skinnier than now. I would not be surprised at all if they where 230-250 kg's especially Caesar, he is probably in the top 10 of most muscular lions I have seen, I'm very impressed by him. that picture of that etosha lion of 240 kg (adjusted) and that lion from timbawati which weighed 250 kg (I know you don't think that it was weighed pckts, but I choose to believe the vet) does not not look like larger specimen than the notch boys to me, but discussing the weights of not weighed animals are just a waste of time... Reply

[Pantherinae]

*This image is copyright of its original author

from the left: Notch 2, Ron, Caesar and Grimace.

*This image is copyright of its original author

from a younger age here: Caesar, Ron, Notch 2 and Grimace

*This image is copyright of its original author

the mighty Ron
  Reply

[Pckts]

(04-30-2015, 04:11 AM)'Pantherinae' Wrote: Notch boys are in another league compared to other males I saw in Masai Mara. And they where smaller and skinnier than now. I would not be surprised at all if they where 230-250 kg's especially Caesar, he is probably in the top 10 of most muscular lions I have seen, I'm very impressed by him. that picture of that etosha lion of 240 kg (adjusted) and that lion from timbawati which weighed 250 kg (I know you don't think that it was weighed pckts, but I choose to believe the vet) does not not look like larger specimen than the notch boys to me, but discussing the weights of not weighed animals are just a waste of time...

 

Wasn't it you who alleged that Notch and crew weren't that large compared to Kruger Lions?
You wrote
"I have actually never been so interested in The notch coallition, it's a fantastic history and and amazing group of males, but I like The more southern males like Xakanaxa and Lions in The duba and okavango! I thought that Ron and Notch 2 where The same lion! But from what I remember when I saw them it was Notch 2 who looked The biggest! Not Ron when i see them on these pictures i recall them. But not sure notch 2 seems to have a larger and thicker mane, and who know's who's The biggest! They are all quite big and close in size! There are much bigger Lions than these i can tell you! But they are by far bigger than 2 other male Lions in the Masai Mara i saw! "

I wrote this
"I remember you saying that you thought the Kruger lion was the largest you ever saw, correct?"

Your Response
"yeah that's right! I'm not thinking that he was The biggest. I know he was The biggest. I agree with beeing careful with estimates, but that was such a massive lion way bigger than everything looking like a lion I have ever seen. :-) "

If 230kg-250kg is your estimate than that would mean they are the extreme size of Lions from any location.
But most lions can have a large fellow from any location so it wouldn't surprise me if one of them was in the upper size category.
  Reply

[Pantherinae]

Yeah, but they where young and quite skinny even Caesar which is very bulky normally and he has always been, they where clearly smaller than one Krüger lion, which must have been a real upper limit sized lion. but they where around the normal Krüger lions. Notch himself at that time was the biggest of them, but the way Caesar out grown his father is what really makes you thinking. and I disagree with what the Facebook fan page says about Caesar being lower and shorter than Notch 2 and Grimace, he is bigger in any perspective: longer, taller and bulkier. It probably because he is so bulky the others seems taller and longer, makes sense since it's like with lions and tigers lions seems clearly taller and sometimes longer, because they are less bulky, but they actually aren't, that's the same with Caesar and the other lions as well.

I started reading up on the Notch boys again a while ago, and I got incredibly interested in them, I like the looks of East African lions. And Caesar is my personal favorite just fell in love with that awesome looking lion! And I saw many pictures from present till now and Caesar really looked big, another thing which can have played a factor when I saw them was that I was very focused on taking pictures and did not pay much attention to the size difference between the individuals, but I'm going down in September to see them again! :-)

*This image is copyright of its original author

Here you can see him with Ron he is quite close in size with Notch 2 and Grimace, and he looks small compared to Caesar. Not all photographers etc, looks so closely and pays so much attention when it comes to size as we here on this forum I think. So when people pays very good attention to stuff like this they can see big differences that others don' see. Reply

[Pckts]

(01-16-2015, 11:25 AM)'sanjay' Wrote: I got some chat with the fb account of notch lions, and guess what ? I get some precious knowledge about these magnificent coalition.

Ceaser - Is biggest of them, He is wide ,large, largest head and stocky build. But not the longest and tallest.

Bob (Grimace ) and Notch2 are longest from head to toe (Bob is little longer).

Notch2 is tallest at shoulder among all

Guess what is surprising ?

Ron is smallest among them BUT HE IS THE LEADER


From back- Bob ,Ron,Notch2,Notch and Ceaser

*This image is copyright of its original author

All credit to: https://www.facebook.com/NotchTheLionKin...isFiveSons

 

Obviously it's impossible to know weights for sure, but frame height and especially length will go a long way. Either way, they are large, healthy lions, thats for sure.

  Reply

[sanjay]

Oh, I forget to update, The measurement the the fb page gave was an estimate by him and others not any verified source. So I think we should keep them in 200KG league as they are big specimen. Reply