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Nkuhuma Pride
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@Mapokser The oldest male is 3 years old! He’s not 4, and won’t be 4 till May. There are many coalitions who let their sons stay including prime Southern Matimbas who allowed Junior to stay with the pride. Junior used to show dominance behaviors too including trying to mate with other lionesses and yet they tolerated him. Is that a sign of weakness? No, that’s just how different coalitions are. Why would Mohawk try to outset Ridge Nose’s son when he is part of a splinter group living separately from the main pride? It makes no sense whatsoever.
And please don’t link random articles like that. There’s no male in Kruger that leaves the pride at 2 and attempts to take over a territory at 3 lol. The Kambula males are almost five and have never even roared or approached another male lion. Also a lot of your facts are sloppy. Dark mane got a limp when the Talamatis were just cubs so no, there were no big sons to help him defend the pride. You can watch the tribute by Tintswalo and they will tell you it was just him on his own defending his pride on many occasions when nomads came in. 
It's been a concern now. Why only 3 cubs been with their mothers?? Where are the other 3???
As far i remember, one young girl died a few weeks ago. So there should be 6 left. Isn't it.   (02-14-2023, 12:58 AM)SMK350 Wrote: @Mapokser The oldest male is 3 years old! He’s not 4, and won’t be 4 till May. There are many coalitions who let their sons stay including prime Southern Matimbas who allowed Junior to stay with the pride. Junior used to show dominance behaviors too including trying to mate with other lionesses and yet they tolerated him. Is that a sign of weakness? No, that’s just how different coalitions are. Why would Mohawk try to outset Ridge Nose’s son when he is part of a splinter group living separately from the main pride? It makes no sense whatsoever. Yes he will be 4 in may and is already past time he was kicked out under "normal circumstances" as most males don't get the privilege of staying with the pride until they turn 4, an age they will leave by themselves ( see Talamati boys ). Assuming he was living under a strong and stable coalition, without threats nearby, the males would have kicked him out already. Are there exceptions? Sure, exceptions exist for everything, I don't doubt there are super tolerant males that despite their strength will wait a little more before starting pushing their sons out, but it's usually not the case and in this particualr scenario, Mohawk's position is too weak for him to be worried about something as "trivial" as kicking out his son when his own position is very delicate. This is Junior Nkuhuma in March 2015:  *This image is copyright of its original author A few months after this the Bboys ousted the Matimbas, I'm not sure if Bboys were pressuring already, but I'd hardly use this as an example of a very tolerant strong coalition allowing an old son to be around, Jr hardly had any mane despite Matimbas having good genetics for mane, not really a surprise he was still living with the pride. Mohawk, if fully territorial and in a powerful position, would naturally oust his son because that's what lions do, they kick their sons out of their territory so they can fend for themselves and eventually pass their genes somehwere else, they still recognize them as sons but their instincts will be to chase them away if they see them in the territory. But since Mohawk is in a weak position, not able to defend the territory from outsiders, he won't bother in trying to kick out his son, he has other priorities. Lions won't try to take over territory as 3yo, obviously, but they will be kicked out at this age and then fend for themselves until they are strong enough to take over, which depending on the individual and numbers it's usually at 4-4.5 years, at 5 they're entering their prime and in perfect condition to challenge rivals. Kambulas aren't even 4 and a half I think, maybe the ones from Kruger are but they are only 2 strong and not particularly impressive individuals. DM was only able to hold his pride from the Imbali male ( which was what I was referring to ) because he had a big pride with two 4ish years old sons that helped him injure the rival once. Even with the pride DM's instinct once seeing Imbali was to abandon his kill and run, never mind if he didn't had a strong pride to help him in some situations.
@Mapokser
Junior was already the same age as Ridge Nose’s son and bigger. Junior is exactly the type of young male that should have gotten ousted from the pride because he tried to mate with females (in front of his fathers) but the Matimbas tolerated him. On the other hand Mohawk discipled his subadults when the new cubs were born which is why they became a splinter group in the first place: https://www.instagram.com/p/CRZMgpYqZ1A/?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y= That’s why I said you don’t know the Nkuhuma pride. You didn’t realize that they are already split up and the subadults have already been pushed to independence although not fully since they were still young at that time. I’m not sure what this dark mane comparison is tbh. Dark Mane’s sons fought S8 in 2022, but all of 2021 it was Dark Mane defending a territory and no, neither his sons or females stood up to S8 back then. I usually don’t jump into these kind of negative conversations but I was absolutely blow away by how off base your comments were. Do you realize the S8’s son (same age as the Nkuhumas) was eaten alive last year because he had no protection from a father? Those subadults are running around for close to two years now and the remaining boys have split up because of that. I’m sure Ridge Nose’s son is grateful everyday that he can reach 4 years of age in his natal territory and continue living with his brothers, which is his only hope for a future. Lions don’t need people throwing insults at them because your article says X should happen, but “oh no, Mohawk’s being nice to his grown son! What a weakling!” That’s not how this works. If he followed your advice, his sons would be split up and probably dead right now, so thanks for the advice, but the lions will continue doing what’s right for them. 
I swear the whole 'DM and sons vs S8' was only ever speculated, never confirmed. A guide said S8 was badly injured and looked like he was going to die, so people started speculating that it was DM and the Talamati boys. But then S8 turned up basically fine, so I took that as it never happened.
I'm pretty sure sub males, who are not dominant or territorial males, would absolutely avoid getting in a tussle with fully matured males looking to take over a pride. They look at the pride male as a protector, not a coalition partner, so if the Nkuhuma subs saw the Black Dam males, pretty sure they and Mohawk would run. And with good reason. 
The rangers exaggerated but there was indeed a little fight encounter between Talamatis, DM and S8 where S8 ended up limping and bleeding. S8 was even running away from them a few days before that fight. Videos were shown.
@SMK350 even if Jr was indeed as old as you claim ( I'm waiting for evidence of him being 2-3 months shy of 4 like Nkuhuma male is now ) and he wasn't kicked out before Bboys started pressuring ( which would put the Matimbas in a very weak position, again, I'll be waiting for proof that Bboys weren't pressuring at the time ). This would be a single example of more tolerant males.
I'm the one who is blown away, you're reaching some absurd conclusions based on things I've never stated. Why are you still saying how bad is that males have been pushed away and had no protection from their fathers? Why are you implying that I'm saying that it is a good thing that males are kicked out at a young age? When have I even implied that this is a good thing for them or something that I like to see? I merely stated the facts, the truth that most males are not privileged enough to remain in their natal territory until they are 4 and at an age they'll leave at their own choice. Now: A) I've never said oldest NK male isn't grateful to still be allowed in the territory, how can you miss every time I said this is a privilege? Males that are allowed to remain for so long are privileged, it's a good thing for them; B) I've never insulted Mohawk or any other lion. I've never called Mohawk a weakling, my goodness, why are you twisting my words to such a degree? I've said his position is weak, which is an obvious and truthful statement, because he's alone against 2 rivals, doesn't matter how strong a lion is, he will always be in a weak position when dealing with 2 enemies. How you managed to twist this to claim I'm calling Mohawk a weakling is honestly beyond me; C) The oldest male wasn't pushed out completely which was what I was referring to, being a breakaway pride is irrelevant, Mohawk is literally hanging out with them and doesn't chase him away from his territory which under normal condition would be what most dominant males would do to sons 2-3 months away from turning 4. Is it good for the young males to remain as much as possible with their pride and in their territory? Yes. It increases their chances? Yes. Did I ever said otherwise? No. Did I said the truth that this isn't often what happens? Yes, usually males kick their sons out of the territory before they are so close to 4, sometimes before they even turn 3. Idk why males kick their sons out relatively soon in most of the cases, maybe because if they are 4 and depending on the numbers, they will try to overthrown their fathers ( see Black Dam Male and his 2 sons ) so maybe they have to kick them out at an age they won't be a threat anytime soon and can move to a distant place and when actually reach an age to challenge for a territory, they'll be far from their fathers' territory. Not sure if this is the reason but the fact is that most males don't allow 4yo sons to be around, period. (02-15-2023, 12:25 AM)NLAL11 Wrote: I swear the whole 'DM and sons vs S8' was only ever speculated, never confirmed. A guide said S8 was badly injured and looked like he was going to die, so people started speculating that it was DM and the Talamati boys. But then S8 turned up basically fine, so I took that as it never happened. The incident with the Talamatis was verified with eye witness accounts and the aftermath was recorded. The same Talamati males a month later fought the two plains camp males to defend dark mane at a carcass - a sighting that was confirmed by three different rangers, with photos of the aftermath. Yeah, the Nkuhuma males will definitely flee the black dam males. And the Talamati males will too under normal circumstances. But in these incidents they were with a father that they had an unusually close bond with so they stepped up to help him. It’s unusual but it happened TWICE. Quote:But in these incidents they were with a father that they had an unusually close bond with so they stepped up to help him. It’s unusual but it happened TWICE. @SMK350 in my humble opinion, what you said above is unusual because normally dominant males oust the subadults. However, it is very likely that if subadults are not ousted, these bonds between father-sons could probably happen more often. 
Unconfirmed yet, but it would seem the separated boy has found Chela , the Subs and his siblings.
Yesterday Tendai shared a different sighting of the Three mothers w the other three cubs. (02-15-2023, 08:31 AM)afortich Wrote:Quote:But in these incidents they were with a father that they had an unusually close bond with so they stepped up to help him. It’s unusual but it happened TWICE. In Kruger it’s a lot more common to see young males stick around. Someone did a post on the Southern Avoca’s son and he’s still with the pride at 3.5, almost 4. This is just my opinion, but I found dark mane to be highly unusual lion in his level of affection and tolerance towards his cubs/subadults. I really don’t know if most males would have bonded with their sons in the same way. I guess anything is possible, but if I ever see Mohawk grooming his sons I might fall out of my chair in shock lol. (02-15-2023, 09:39 AM)SMK350 Wrote:(02-15-2023, 08:31 AM)afortich Wrote:Quote:But in these incidents they were with a father that they had an unusually close bond with so they stepped up to help him. It’s unusual but it happened TWICE. lol  . Yep, DM Avoca showed a lot of affections to his subadults.
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