There is a world somewhere between reality and fiction. Although ignored by many, it is very real and so are those living in it. This forum is about the natural world. Here, wild animals will be heard and respected. The forum offers a glimpse into an unknown world as well as a room with a view on the present and the future. Anyone able to speak on behalf of those living in the emerald forest and the deep blue sea is invited to join.
(09-02-2024, 06:09 PM)KM600 Wrote: Adding onto this, it’s been a while since the PCMs were even seen mating with the Nkuhumas. Three Nkuhuma lionesses seem to have accepted them completely but the rest don’t seem to be sure, their age doesn’t help either. I actually look at none of the lionesses seemingly pregnant, yet, as a good thing. The PCMs don’t have a stronghold on the North to protect even more of their own cubs.
Ideally, Kambulas take whole NKs and manage to keep PCMs west, this outcome would be best for all parties, including PCMs western prides Mhangenis and Ximhungwes.
Question is are Kambulas interested and capable of doing that.
I understand when you say Kambulas taking over the whole nkuhuma pride would be the ideal situation
However I´ve been wanting to discuss something here in wildfact for a while but never seen a way to get it started
Genetics- So we all know theres alot of inbreeding around the whole Kruger and what those cases could do to lion population
We are in a phase that it seems that we should prioritize lion numbers over their genetic health
Perhaps we are already seeing some cases of inbreeding complications on lions around the reserve for example: some infertile females, wide set eyes ( like we see in captivity felines victims or exessive inbreding), obviously inbreeding makes recessive genes show up more ( like the white lions in Timbavati), behavior changes ( Im not an expert on that but maybe) and so on, not to talk about health risks and common health deficiences
Sabi sands , Maniyeleti and Timbavati arent the worst zones of Kruger where that is happening, if we look north of Klaserie things seem to be even worse, most prides there are descendants of Birmingham and Ross prides and they´ve been mating with eachoter for quite some time, because only occasionally a lion or two from Timbavati/Thornybush goes up there etc...
If we look into the south of Kruger the family tree there looks like a basket ball, he have the same names everywhere etc...
Im sorry for only now talking about the Kambulas and Nkuhumas
So as we know Kambulas and Nkuhumas share the same blood from the Birminghams, would it be ideal to them taking over the Nkuhuma pride or perhas a coaliton like 2 Mantimahale males be better to refresh the genetic pool or even some males comming from Kruger like what happend with he Ndhzengas or Gijimas
Where would the Kambulas go? well you have prides like Imbali and Mbiris that still being related to them arent as close ( the Nharus are a big no no in terms of genetics for them), if we look south everything the sun touches in sabi sands seems to have been touched by their fathers or grandpas
Obviously we cant control where they decide to go, and shouldn´t
Nkuhumas in genetic terms seem to have bads options all around:
PCM- they already have what 4 prides? in the future half the reserve would be their descendant even worse with their half brothers the Nkhulus south reproducing aswell
Mantimhale males- same problem, if the PCM descendants reach adulthood they would be cousins to any Nkuhuma descendants who also reach adulthood
Khanya and Nkuhuma- I MEAN
Kambulas- have some sisters and nieces in the pride
Ndzhengas- seem to be the better option, but they already have two big prides an enormous territory and being only two males now, cant really have everything from on end of MalaMala to djuma
But how would Kruger national park resolve this inbreeding problem and if you guys think its really a problem to be resolved at all
Relocating lions seems a bad ideia, imagine if we relocate a coaliton of 4 to a place where theres only a lone pride male, quite unfair to him
expanding the borders could help prides being more dispersed and not controled by the same males but its very difficult to get it done
Now a theory of mine- could artificial insemination help with the genetics? Like we inseminate a pride with a pride male/coalition with sperm from other lions from other reserves, zoos or even sanctuaries ?
the problem is how would we know if the cubs are from the resident dominant male or the artificial insemination? I dont know
and would the male accept the cubs? I dont know too
anyway what are you guys opinions on that
I dont know if I should post this here or at all and even if it makes sense with my broken english
09-02-2024, 07:57 PM( This post was last modified: 09-02-2024, 08:39 PM by KM600 )
(09-02-2024, 07:38 PM)Rui Ferreira Wrote:
(09-02-2024, 06:31 PM)Tr1x24 Wrote:
(09-02-2024, 06:09 PM)KM600 Wrote: Adding onto this, it’s been a while since the PCMs were even seen mating with the Nkuhumas. Three Nkuhuma lionesses seem to have accepted them completely but the rest don’t seem to be sure, their age doesn’t help either. I actually look at none of the lionesses seemingly pregnant, yet, as a good thing. The PCMs don’t have a stronghold on the North to protect even more of their own cubs.
Ideally, Kambulas take whole NKs and manage to keep PCMs west, this outcome would be best for all parties, including PCMs western prides Mhangenis and Ximhungwes.
Question is are Kambulas interested and capable of doing that.
I understand when you say Kambulas taking over the whole nkuhuma pride would be the ideal situation
However I´ve been wanting to discuss something here in wildfact for a while but never seen a way to get it started
Genetics- So we all know theres alot of inbreeding around the whole Kruger and what those cases could do to lion population
We are in a phase that it seems that we should prioritize lion numbers over their genetic health
Perhaps we are already seeing some cases of inbreeding complications on lions around the reserve for example: some infertile females, wide set eyes ( like we see in captivity felines victims or exessive inbreding), obviously inbreeding makes recessive genes show up more ( like the white lions in Timbavati), behavior changes ( Im not an expert on that but maybe) and so on, not to talk about health risks and common health deficiences
Sabi sands , Maniyeleti and Timbavati arent the worst zones of Kruger where that is happening, if we look north of Klaserie things seem to be even worse, most prides there are descendants of Birmingham and Ross prides and they´ve been mating with eachoter for quite some time, because only occasionally a lion or two from Timbavati/Thornybush goes up there etc...
If we look into the south of Kruger the family tree there looks like a basket ball, he have the same names everywhere etc...
Im sorry for only now talking about the Kambulas and Nkuhumas
So as we know Kambulas and Nkuhumas share the same blood from the Birminghams, would it be ideal to them taking over the Nkuhuma pride or perhas a coaliton like 2 Mantimahale males be better to refresh the genetic pool or even some males comming from Kruger like what happend with he Ndhzengas or Gijimas
Where would the Kambulas go? well you have prides like Imbali and Mbiris that still being related to them arent as close ( the Nharus are a big no no in terms of genetics for them), if we look south everything the sun touches in sabi sands seems to have been touched by their fathers or grandpas
Obviously we cant control where they decide to go, and shouldn´t
Nkuhumas in genetic terms seem to have bads options all around:
PCM- they already have what 4 prides? in the future half the reserve would be their descendant even worse with their half brothers the Nkhulus south reproducing aswell
Mantimhale males- same problem, if the PCM descendants reach adulthood they would be cousins to any Nkuhuma descendants who also reach adulthood
Khanya and Nkuhuma- I MEAN
Kambulas- have some sisters and nieces in the pride
Ndzhengas- seem to be the better option, but they already have two big prides an enormous territory and being only two males now, cant really have everything from on end of MalaMala to djuma
But how would Kruger national park resolve this inbreeding problem and if you guys think its really a problem to be resolved at all
Relocating lions seems a bad ideia, imagine if we relocate a coaliton of 4 to a place where theres only a lone pride male, quite unfair to him
expanding the borders could help prides being more dispersed and not controled by the same males but its very difficult to get it done
Now a theory of mine- could artificial insemination help with the genetics? Like we inseminate a pride with a pride male/coalition with sperm from other lions from other reserves, zoos or even sanctuaries ?
the problem is how would we know if the cubs are from the resident dominant male or the artificial insemination? I dont know
and would the male accept the cubs? I dont know too
anyway what are you guys opinions on that
I dont know if I should post this here or at all and even if it makes sense with my broken english
That was pretty perfect English to be honest, I can guarantee u every member understood all that. I look at it like this, majority of these lions are somewhat related, but not enough for it to trouble us, more so related many generations ahead. Theres not enough cases like Tintswalos with Mbiris for reserves to think about relocating males or whole prides.
Speaking about this actually, the famous lion Tembe was relocated to better the genetics of the area he was moved into and well his son was also relocated recently too for obvious reasons. His son, only 3 years 10 months old and he already killed the dominant male of the new reserve he was moved into so even if they wanted to move all these males, it definitely wouldn’t be easy to do and wouldn’t exactly be fair for the resident males like u already pointed out.
(09-02-2024, 06:09 PM)KM600 Wrote: Adding onto this, it’s been a while since the PCMs were even seen mating with the Nkuhumas. Three Nkuhuma lionesses seem to have accepted them completely but the rest don’t seem to be sure, their age doesn’t help either. I actually look at none of the lionesses seemingly pregnant, yet, as a good thing. The PCMs don’t have a stronghold on the North to protect even more of their own cubs.
Ideally, Kambulas take whole NKs and manage to keep PCMs west, this outcome would be best for all parties, including PCMs western prides Mhangenis and Ximhungwes.
Question is are Kambulas interested and capable of doing that.
I understand when you say Kambulas taking over the whole nkuhuma pride would be the ideal situation
However I´ve been wanting to discuss something here in wildfact for a while but never seen a way to get it started
Genetics- So we all know theres alot of inbreeding around the whole Kruger and what those cases could do to lion population
We are in a phase that it seems that we should prioritize lion numbers over their genetic health
Perhaps we are already seeing some cases of inbreeding complications on lions around the reserve for example: some infertile females, wide set eyes ( like we see in captivity felines victims or exessive inbreding), obviously inbreeding makes recessive genes show up more ( like the white lions in Timbavati), behavior changes ( Im not an expert on that but maybe) and so on, not to talk about health risks and common health deficiences
Sabi sands , Maniyeleti and Timbavati arent the worst zones of Kruger where that is happening, if we look north of Klaserie things seem to be even worse, most prides there are descendants of Birmingham and Ross prides and they´ve been mating with eachoter for quite some time, because only occasionally a lion or two from Timbavati/Thornybush goes up there etc...
If we look into the south of Kruger the family tree there looks like a basket ball, he have the same names everywhere etc...
Im sorry for only now talking about the Kambulas and Nkuhumas
So as we know Kambulas and Nkuhumas share the same blood from the Birminghams, would it be ideal to them taking over the Nkuhuma pride or perhas a coaliton like 2 Mantimahale males be better to refresh the genetic pool or even some males comming from Kruger like what happend with he Ndhzengas or Gijimas
Where would the Kambulas go? well you have prides like Imbali and Mbiris that still being related to them arent as close ( the Nharus are a big no no in terms of genetics for them), if we look south everything the sun touches in sabi sands seems to have been touched by their fathers or grandpas
Obviously we cant control where they decide to go, and shouldn´t
Nkuhumas in genetic terms seem to have bads options all around:
PCM- they already have what 4 prides? in the future half the reserve would be their descendant even worse with their half brothers the Nkhulus south reproducing aswell
Mantimhale males- same problem, if the PCM descendants reach adulthood they would be cousins to any Nkuhuma descendants who also reach adulthood
Khanya and Nkuhuma- I MEAN
Kambulas- have some sisters and nieces in the pride
Ndzhengas- seem to be the better option, but they already have two big prides an enormous territory and being only two males now, cant really have everything from on end of MalaMala to djuma
But how would Kruger national park resolve this inbreeding problem and if you guys think its really a problem to be resolved at all
Relocating lions seems a bad ideia, imagine if we relocate a coaliton of 4 to a place where theres only a lone pride male, quite unfair to him
expanding the borders could help prides being more dispersed and not controled by the same males but its very difficult to get it done
Now a theory of mine- could artificial insemination help with the genetics? Like we inseminate a pride with a pride male/coalition with sperm from other lions from other reserves, zoos or even sanctuaries ?
the problem is how would we know if the cubs are from the resident dominant male or the artificial insemination? I dont know
and would the male accept the cubs? I dont know too
anyway what are you guys opinions on that
I dont know if I should post this here or at all and even if it makes sense with my broken english
That was pretty perfect English to be honest, I can guarantee u every member understood all that. I look at it like this, majority of these lions are somewhat related, but not enough for it to trouble us, more so related many generations ahead. Theres not enough cases like Tintswalos with Mbiris for reserves to think about relocating males or whole prides.
Speaking about this actually, the famous lion Tembe was relocated to better the genetics of the area he was moved into and well his son was also relocated recently too for obvious reasons. His son, only 3.5 years old already killed the dominant male of the new reserve he was moved into so even if they wanted to move all these males, it definitely wouldn’t be easy to do and wouldn’t exactly be fair for the resident males like u already pointed out.
First of all thank you, I was worried I couldnt express myself in the correct way lol
Yeah I agree with you on that, you might have a case similar to Tinswalos with the Nkuhumas if Khanya and Nkuhuma decide to claim that pride for themselfs but also with the Kambulas theres like 2 females from the Birminghams there and I dont know if any of the avoca daughters are from there them
But so far thats only specific cases and let nature take its course
What worries me quite a bit and thats only speculation by this point is the fact that all sabi sands right now is surrounded by Mantimhales, PCM and Nkhulus who are all brothers, I think last time we had a case where that many closely related coalitions in sabi sands were with WSM descendants? Might be wrong, and that sorted by itself so we´ll see how it turns out
About the case you mentioned, were they moved to a close gated small reserve like Amakale and Madikwe or inside Kruger
In my perspective inside a small closed reserved ( small when compared to Kruger) relocating adult or sub adult male lions into the reserve isnt a great option
At that point you might aswell say you want them to finish off the resident males so they can breed with the lionesses
In that case you either swap the pride males from one reserve to the other like they did a couple weeks ago
Or artificially inseminate the lionesses with sperm from other lions to refresh the genetic pool
(09-02-2024, 06:09 PM)KM600 Wrote: Adding onto this, it’s been a while since the PCMs were even seen mating with the Nkuhumas. Three Nkuhuma lionesses seem to have accepted them completely but the rest don’t seem to be sure, their age doesn’t help either. I actually look at none of the lionesses seemingly pregnant, yet, as a good thing. The PCMs don’t have a stronghold on the North to protect even more of their own cubs.
Ideally, Kambulas take whole NKs and manage to keep PCMs west, this outcome would be best for all parties, including PCMs western prides Mhangenis and Ximhungwes.
Question is are Kambulas interested and capable of doing that.
I understand when you say Kambulas taking over the whole nkuhuma pride would be the ideal situation
However I´ve been wanting to discuss something here in wildfact for a while but never seen a way to get it started
Genetics- So we all know theres alot of inbreeding around the whole Kruger and what those cases could do to lion population
We are in a phase that it seems that we should prioritize lion numbers over their genetic health
Perhaps we are already seeing some cases of inbreeding complications on lions around the reserve for example: some infertile females, wide set eyes ( like we see in captivity felines victims or exessive inbreding), obviously inbreeding makes recessive genes show up more ( like the white lions in Timbavati), behavior changes ( Im not an expert on that but maybe) and so on, not to talk about health risks and common health deficiences
Sabi sands , Maniyeleti and Timbavati arent the worst zones of Kruger where that is happening, if we look north of Klaserie things seem to be even worse, most prides there are descendants of Birmingham and Ross prides and they´ve been mating with eachoter for quite some time, because only occasionally a lion or two from Timbavati/Thornybush goes up there etc...
If we look into the south of Kruger the family tree there looks like a basket ball, he have the same names everywhere etc...
Im sorry for only now talking about the Kambulas and Nkuhumas
So as we know Kambulas and Nkuhumas share the same blood from the Birminghams, would it be ideal to them taking over the Nkuhuma pride or perhas a coaliton like 2 Mantimahale males be better to refresh the genetic pool or even some males comming from Kruger like what happend with he Ndhzengas or Gijimas
Where would the Kambulas go? well you have prides like Imbali and Mbiris that still being related to them arent as close ( the Nharus are a big no no in terms of genetics for them), if we look south everything the sun touches in sabi sands seems to have been touched by their fathers or grandpas
Obviously we cant control where they decide to go, and shouldn´t
Nkuhumas in genetic terms seem to have bads options all around:
PCM- they already have what 4 prides? in the future half the reserve would be their descendant even worse with their half brothers the Nkhulus south reproducing aswell
Mantimhale males- same problem, if the PCM descendants reach adulthood they would be cousins to any Nkuhuma descendants who also reach adulthood
Khanya and Nkuhuma- I MEAN
Kambulas- have some sisters and nieces in the pride
Ndzhengas- seem to be the better option, but they already have two big prides an enormous territory and being only two males now, cant really have everything from on end of MalaMala to djuma
But how would Kruger national park resolve this inbreeding problem and if you guys think its really a problem to be resolved at all
Relocating lions seems a bad ideia, imagine if we relocate a coaliton of 4 to a place where theres only a lone pride male, quite unfair to him
expanding the borders could help prides being more dispersed and not controled by the same males but its very difficult to get it done
Now a theory of mine- could artificial insemination help with the genetics? Like we inseminate a pride with a pride male/coalition with sperm from other lions from other reserves, zoos or even sanctuaries ?
the problem is how would we know if the cubs are from the resident dominant male or the artificial insemination? I dont know
and would the male accept the cubs? I dont know too
anyway what are you guys opinions on that
I dont know if I should post this here or at all and even if it makes sense with my broken english
That was pretty perfect English to be honest, I can guarantee u every member understood all that. I look at it like this, majority of these lions are somewhat related, but not enough for it to trouble us, more so related many generations ahead. Theres not enough cases like Tintswalos with Mbiris for reserves to think about relocating males or whole prides.
Speaking about this actually, the famous lion Tembe was relocated to better the genetics of the area he was moved into and well his son was also relocated recently too for obvious reasons. His son, only 3.5 years old already killed the dominant male of the new reserve he was moved into so even if they wanted to move all these males, it definitely wouldn’t be easy to do and wouldn’t exactly be fair for the resident males like u already pointed out.
First of all thank you, I was worried I couldnt express myself in the correct way lol
Yeah I agree with you on that, you might have a case similar to Tinswalos with the Nkuhumas if Khanya and Nkuhuma decide to claim that pride for themselfs but also with the Kambulas theres like 2 females from the Birminghams there and I dont know if any of the avoca daughters are from there them
But so far thats only specific cases and let nature take its course
What worries me quite a bit and thats only speculation by this point is the fact that all sabi sands right now is surrounded by Mantimhales, PCM and Nkhulus who are all brothers, I think last time we had a case where that many closely related coalitions in sabi sands were with WSM descendants? Might be wrong, and that sorted by itself so we´ll see how it turns out
About the case you mentioned, were they moved to a close gated small reserve like Amakale and Madikwe or inside Kruger
In my perspective inside a small closed reserved ( small when compared to Kruger) relocating adult or sub adult male lions into the reserve isnt a great option
At that point you might aswell say you want them to finish off the resident males so they can breed with the lionesses
In that case you either swap the pride males from one reserve to the other like they did a couple weeks ago
Or artificially inseminate the lionesses with sperm from other lions to refresh the genetic pool
I think with the Mantimahle bloodline it’s easy to look at it now and think how this isn’t ideal for Sabi Sands, but we need to take into account that not all offspring deriving from PCMs, Mantimahle and Nkhulus will survive, and even fewer will settle down in Sabi Sands. Maybe a problem for the future but not right now.
The young male was moved into Dinokeng which I’m guessing is a small reserve, both as I’ve never heard of it and it’s usually the smaller reserves that new males are relocated into. I remember watching a video from Shamwari Game Reserve and they spoke about how common it is for reserves to be in contact with each other about essentially switching male lions to better their own genetics.
In their case, it didn’t exactly work as the introduction of ‘Jack the handsome nomad’ put pressure on one of the dominant males at the time, who then responded by allowing his son to join the coalition. Ironically them trying to reduce the amount of inbreeding only helped increase the chance of it happening.
(09-02-2024, 06:09 PM)KM600 Wrote: Adding onto this, it’s been a while since the PCMs were even seen mating with the Nkuhumas. Three Nkuhuma lionesses seem to have accepted them completely but the rest don’t seem to be sure, their age doesn’t help either. I actually look at none of the lionesses seemingly pregnant, yet, as a good thing. The PCMs don’t have a stronghold on the North to protect even more of their own cubs.
Ideally, Kambulas take whole NKs and manage to keep PCMs west, this outcome would be best for all parties, including PCMs western prides Mhangenis and Ximhungwes.
Question is are Kambulas interested and capable of doing that.
I understand when you say Kambulas taking over the whole nkuhuma pride would be the ideal situation
However I´ve been wanting to discuss something here in wildfact for a while but never seen a way to get it started
Genetics- So we all know theres alot of inbreeding around the whole Kruger and what those cases could do to lion population
We are in a phase that it seems that we should prioritize lion numbers over their genetic health
Perhaps we are already seeing some cases of inbreeding complications on lions around the reserve for example: some infertile females, wide set eyes ( like we see in captivity felines victims or exessive inbreding), obviously inbreeding makes recessive genes show up more ( like the white lions in Timbavati), behavior changes ( Im not an expert on that but maybe) and so on, not to talk about health risks and common health deficiences
Sabi sands , Maniyeleti and Timbavati arent the worst zones of Kruger where that is happening, if we look north of Klaserie things seem to be even worse, most prides there are descendants of Birmingham and Ross prides and they´ve been mating with eachoter for quite some time, because only occasionally a lion or two from Timbavati/Thornybush goes up there etc...
If we look into the south of Kruger the family tree there looks like a basket ball, he have the same names everywhere etc...
Im sorry for only now talking about the Kambulas and Nkuhumas
So as we know Kambulas and Nkuhumas share the same blood from the Birminghams, would it be ideal to them taking over the Nkuhuma pride or perhas a coaliton like 2 Mantimahale males be better to refresh the genetic pool or even some males comming from Kruger like what happend with he Ndhzengas or Gijimas
Where would the Kambulas go? well you have prides like Imbali and Mbiris that still being related to them arent as close ( the Nharus are a big no no in terms of genetics for them), if we look south everything the sun touches in sabi sands seems to have been touched by their fathers or grandpas
Obviously we cant control where they decide to go, and shouldn´t
Nkuhumas in genetic terms seem to have bads options all around:
PCM- they already have what 4 prides? in the future half the reserve would be their descendant even worse with their half brothers the Nkhulus south reproducing aswell
Mantimhale males- same problem, if the PCM descendants reach adulthood they would be cousins to any Nkuhuma descendants who also reach adulthood
Khanya and Nkuhuma- I MEAN
Kambulas- have some sisters and nieces in the pride
Ndzhengas- seem to be the better option, but they already have two big prides an enormous territory and being only two males now, cant really have everything from on end of MalaMala to djuma
But how would Kruger national park resolve this inbreeding problem and if you guys think its really a problem to be resolved at all
Relocating lions seems a bad ideia, imagine if we relocate a coaliton of 4 to a place where theres only a lone pride male, quite unfair to him
expanding the borders could help prides being more dispersed and not controled by the same males but its very difficult to get it done
Now a theory of mine- could artificial insemination help with the genetics? Like we inseminate a pride with a pride male/coalition with sperm from other lions from other reserves, zoos or even sanctuaries ?
the problem is how would we know if the cubs are from the resident dominant male or the artificial insemination? I dont know
and would the male accept the cubs? I dont know too
anyway what are you guys opinions on that
I dont know if I should post this here or at all and even if it makes sense with my broken english
That was pretty perfect English to be honest, I can guarantee u every member understood all that. I look at it like this, majority of these lions are somewhat related, but not enough for it to trouble us, more so related many generations ahead. Theres not enough cases like Tintswalos with Mbiris for reserves to think about relocating males or whole prides.
Speaking about this actually, the famous lion Tembe was relocated to better the genetics of the area he was moved into and well his son was also relocated recently too for obvious reasons. His son, only 3.5 years old already killed the dominant male of the new reserve he was moved into so even if they wanted to move all these males, it definitely wouldn’t be easy to do and wouldn’t exactly be fair for the resident males like u already pointed out.
First of all thank you, I was worried I couldnt express myself in the correct way lol
Yeah I agree with you on that, you might have a case similar to Tinswalos with the Nkuhumas if Khanya and Nkuhuma decide to claim that pride for themselfs but also with the Kambulas theres like 2 females from the Birminghams there and I dont know if any of the avoca daughters are from there them
But so far thats only specific cases and let nature take its course
What worries me quite a bit and thats only speculation by this point is the fact that all sabi sands right now is surrounded by Mantimhales, PCM and Nkhulus who are all brothers, I think last time we had a case where that many closely related coalitions in sabi sands were with WSM descendants? Might be wrong, and that sorted by itself so we´ll see how it turns out
About the case you mentioned, were they moved to a close gated small reserve like Amakale and Madikwe or inside Kruger
In my perspective inside a small closed reserved ( small when compared to Kruger) relocating adult or sub adult male lions into the reserve isnt a great option
At that point you might aswell say you want them to finish off the resident males so they can breed with the lionesses
In that case you either swap the pride males from one reserve to the other like they did a couple weeks ago
Or artificially inseminate the lionesses with sperm from other lions to refresh the genetic pool
I think with the Mantimahle bloodline it’s easy to look at it now and think how this isn’t ideal for Sabi Sands, but we need to take into account that not all offspring deriving from PCMs, Mantimahle and Nkhulus will survive, and even fewer will settle down in Sabi Sands. Maybe a problem for the future but not right now.
The young male was moved into Dinokeng which I’m guessing is a small reserve, both as I’ve never heard of it and it’s usually the smaller reserves that new males are relocated into. I remember watching a video from Shamwari Game Reserve and they spoke about how common it is for reserves to be in contact with each other about essentially switching male lions to better their own genetics.
In their case, it didn’t exactly work as the introduction of ‘Jack the handsome nomad’ put pressure on one of the dominant males at the time, who then responded by allowing his son to join the coalition. Ironically them trying to reduce the amount of inbreeding only helped increase the chance of it happening.
Wow but thats the thing, what do they expect the resident males to do, just leave the pride because theres a new male or die? They could´ve just moved the resident male to allow a new comer to take the pride, I know its not that simple but doesnt seem that difficult either oh well ironic to say the least
(09-02-2024, 06:09 PM)KM600 Wrote: Adding onto this, it’s been a while since the PCMs were even seen mating with the Nkuhumas. Three Nkuhuma lionesses seem to have accepted them completely but the rest don’t seem to be sure, their age doesn’t help either. I actually look at none of the lionesses seemingly pregnant, yet, as a good thing. The PCMs don’t have a stronghold on the North to protect even more of their own cubs.
Ideally, Kambulas take whole NKs and manage to keep PCMs west, this outcome would be best for all parties, including PCMs western prides Mhangenis and Ximhungwes.
Question is are Kambulas interested and capable of doing that.
I understand when you say Kambulas taking over the whole nkuhuma pride would be the ideal situation
However I´ve been wanting to discuss something here in wildfact for a while but never seen a way to get it started
Genetics- So we all know theres alot of inbreeding around the whole Kruger and what those cases could do to lion population
We are in a phase that it seems that we should prioritize lion numbers over their genetic health
Perhaps we are already seeing some cases of inbreeding complications on lions around the reserve for example: some infertile females, wide set eyes ( like we see in captivity felines victims or exessive inbreding), obviously inbreeding makes recessive genes show up more ( like the white lions in Timbavati), behavior changes ( Im not an expert on that but maybe) and so on, not to talk about health risks and common health deficiences
Sabi sands , Maniyeleti and Timbavati arent the worst zones of Kruger where that is happening, if we look north of Klaserie things seem to be even worse, most prides there are descendants of Birmingham and Ross prides and they´ve been mating with eachoter for quite some time, because only occasionally a lion or two from Timbavati/Thornybush goes up there etc...
If we look into the south of Kruger the family tree there looks like a basket ball, he have the same names everywhere etc...
Im sorry for only now talking about the Kambulas and Nkuhumas
So as we know Kambulas and Nkuhumas share the same blood from the Birminghams, would it be ideal to them taking over the Nkuhuma pride or perhas a coaliton like 2 Mantimahale males be better to refresh the genetic pool or even some males comming from Kruger like what happend with he Ndhzengas or Gijimas
Where would the Kambulas go? well you have prides like Imbali and Mbiris that still being related to them arent as close ( the Nharus are a big no no in terms of genetics for them), if we look south everything the sun touches in sabi sands seems to have been touched by their fathers or grandpas
Obviously we cant control where they decide to go, and shouldn´t
Nkuhumas in genetic terms seem to have bads options all around:
PCM- they already have what 4 prides? in the future half the reserve would be their descendant even worse with their half brothers the Nkhulus south reproducing aswell
Mantimhale males- same problem, if the PCM descendants reach adulthood they would be cousins to any Nkuhuma descendants who also reach adulthood
Khanya and Nkuhuma- I MEAN
Kambulas- have some sisters and nieces in the pride
Ndzhengas- seem to be the better option, but they already have two big prides an enormous territory and being only two males now, cant really have everything from on end of MalaMala to djuma
But how would Kruger national park resolve this inbreeding problem and if you guys think its really a problem to be resolved at all
Relocating lions seems a bad ideia, imagine if we relocate a coaliton of 4 to a place where theres only a lone pride male, quite unfair to him
expanding the borders could help prides being more dispersed and not controled by the same males but its very difficult to get it done
Now a theory of mine- could artificial insemination help with the genetics? Like we inseminate a pride with a pride male/coalition with sperm from other lions from other reserves, zoos or even sanctuaries ?
the problem is how would we know if the cubs are from the resident dominant male or the artificial insemination? I dont know
and would the male accept the cubs? I dont know too
anyway what are you guys opinions on that
I dont know if I should post this here or at all and even if it makes sense with my broken english
That was pretty perfect English to be honest, I can guarantee u every member understood all that. I look at it like this, majority of these lions are somewhat related, but not enough for it to trouble us, more so related many generations ahead. Theres not enough cases like Tintswalos with Mbiris for reserves to think about relocating males or whole prides.
Speaking about this actually, the famous lion Tembe was relocated to better the genetics of the area he was moved into and well his son was also relocated recently too for obvious reasons. His son, only 3.5 years old already killed the dominant male of the new reserve he was moved into so even if they wanted to move all these males, it definitely wouldn’t be easy to do and wouldn’t exactly be fair for the resident males like u already pointed out.
First of all thank you, I was worried I couldnt express myself in the correct way lol
Yeah I agree with you on that, you might have a case similar to Tinswalos with the Nkuhumas if Khanya and Nkuhuma decide to claim that pride for themselfs but also with the Kambulas theres like 2 females from the Birminghams there and I dont know if any of the avoca daughters are from there them
But so far thats only specific cases and let nature take its course
What worries me quite a bit and thats only speculation by this point is the fact that all sabi sands right now is surrounded by Mantimhales, PCM and Nkhulus who are all brothers, I think last time we had a case where that many closely related coalitions in sabi sands were with WSM descendants? Might be wrong, and that sorted by itself so we´ll see how it turns out
About the case you mentioned, were they moved to a close gated small reserve like Amakale and Madikwe or inside Kruger
In my perspective inside a small closed reserved ( small when compared to Kruger) relocating adult or sub adult male lions into the reserve isnt a great option
At that point you might aswell say you want them to finish off the resident males so they can breed with the lionesses
In that case you either swap the pride males from one reserve to the other like they did a couple weeks ago
Or artificially inseminate the lionesses with sperm from other lions to refresh the genetic pool
I think with the Mantimahle bloodline it’s easy to look at it now and think how this isn’t ideal for Sabi Sands, but we need to take into account that not all offspring deriving from PCMs, Mantimahle and Nkhulus will survive, and even fewer will settle down in Sabi Sands. Maybe a problem for the future but not right now.
The young male was moved into Dinokeng which I’m guessing is a small reserve, both as I’ve never heard of it and it’s usually the smaller reserves that new males are relocated into. I remember watching a video from Shamwari Game Reserve and they spoke about how common it is for reserves to be in contact with each other about essentially switching male lions to better their own genetics.
In their case, it didn’t exactly work as the introduction of ‘Jack the handsome nomad’ put pressure on one of the dominant males at the time, who then responded by allowing his son to join the coalition. Ironically them trying to reduce the amount of inbreeding only helped increase the chance of it happening.
Wow but thats the thing, what do they expect the resident males to do, just leave the pride because theres a new male or die? They could´ve just moved the resident male to allow a new comer to take the pride, I know its not that simple but doesnt seem that difficult either oh well ironic to say the least
While I, personally, disagree with the method that has been used in many of these translocations (recent moving of the Mjejane Pride, which I am about to post a possible update on that situation as well), I do understand the need for them, if done correctly. I do not believe there is any way they can be done that does not come with some risks. Even when you have translocated two resident males, from one reserve to the other, essentially swapping these males, there remains risks to the resident pride females, who themselves may be killed in an attempt to fight off the new intruder, or perhaps to protect cubs if there are any, and the likelihood that any/all cubs will be killed as well.
Then the areas to which some of these lions are moved to, namely the choice to move lions to the far northern reaches of Kruger, which as we have seen, there is a reason there are so few lions who exist there, to move them there is almost a death sentence. Not to mention they left the young Mjejane male behind, on a private reserve that is know for the killing of lions, almost assuring him of a terrible fate as well.
So, while there does exist a safer method of doing this, I do not believe there is any way it can be done that insures the lives of all the lions involved. However, at the same time, we must consider that no lion is safe in the wild, either. The only difference is, when a lion is killed in the wild, be it by a hunting accident, or at the paws of other lions, people simply accept that as an example of how risky it is to simply be a lion. But, just as with what happened with the three Addo males, even something as unpredictable as the two brothers killing the third the moment the anesthesia wore off, followed by the brutal death of the second brother by the two resident males, who were already battle tested, older than the Addo boys, and much larger, because humans were involved in translocating those three young males, the uproar was immediate, people immediately blamed the humans involved in the translocation of those males, for their deaths, and I believe some of that may well have been justified.
Can you account for all possible dangers? No, certainly nobody could have predicted that the two brothers would immediately attack the third, the moment they awoke, but surely they could have taken into consideration the likelihood of conflict with the older and larger territorial males.
(09-02-2024, 06:09 PM)KM600 Wrote: Adding onto this, it’s been a while since the PCMs were even seen mating with the Nkuhumas. Three Nkuhuma lionesses seem to have accepted them completely but the rest don’t seem to be sure, their age doesn’t help either. I actually look at none of the lionesses seemingly pregnant, yet, as a good thing. The PCMs don’t have a stronghold on the North to protect even more of their own cubs.
Ideally, Kambulas take whole NKs and manage to keep PCMs west, this outcome would be best for all parties, including PCMs western prides Mhangenis and Ximhungwes.
Question is are Kambulas interested and capable of doing that.
I understand when you say Kambulas taking over the whole nkuhuma pride would be the ideal situation
However I´ve been wanting to discuss something here in wildfact for a while but never seen a way to get it started
Genetics- So we all know theres alot of inbreeding around the whole Kruger and what those cases could do to lion population
We are in a phase that it seems that we should prioritize lion numbers over their genetic health
Perhaps we are already seeing some cases of inbreeding complications on lions around the reserve for example: some infertile females, wide set eyes ( like we see in captivity felines victims or exessive inbreding), obviously inbreeding makes recessive genes show up more ( like the white lions in Timbavati), behavior changes ( Im not an expert on that but maybe) and so on, not to talk about health risks and common health deficiences
Sabi sands , Maniyeleti and Timbavati arent the worst zones of Kruger where that is happening, if we look north of Klaserie things seem to be even worse, most prides there are descendants of Birmingham and Ross prides and they´ve been mating with eachoter for quite some time, because only occasionally a lion or two from Timbavati/Thornybush goes up there etc...
If we look into the south of Kruger the family tree there looks like a basket ball, he have the same names everywhere etc...
Im sorry for only now talking about the Kambulas and Nkuhumas
So as we know Kambulas and Nkuhumas share the same blood from the Birminghams, would it be ideal to them taking over the Nkuhuma pride or perhas a coaliton like 2 Mantimahale males be better to refresh the genetic pool or even some males comming from Kruger like what happend with he Ndhzengas or Gijimas
Where would the Kambulas go? well you have prides like Imbali and Mbiris that still being related to them arent as close ( the Nharus are a big no no in terms of genetics for them), if we look south everything the sun touches in sabi sands seems to have been touched by their fathers or grandpas
Obviously we cant control where they decide to go, and shouldn´t
Nkuhumas in genetic terms seem to have bads options all around:
PCM- they already have what 4 prides? in the future half the reserve would be their descendant even worse with their half brothers the Nkhulus south reproducing aswell
Mantimhale males- same problem, if the PCM descendants reach adulthood they would be cousins to any Nkuhuma descendants who also reach adulthood
Khanya and Nkuhuma- I MEAN
Kambulas- have some sisters and nieces in the pride
Ndzhengas- seem to be the better option, but they already have two big prides an enormous territory and being only two males now, cant really have everything from on end of MalaMala to djuma
But how would Kruger national park resolve this inbreeding problem and if you guys think its really a problem to be resolved at all
Relocating lions seems a bad ideia, imagine if we relocate a coaliton of 4 to a place where theres only a lone pride male, quite unfair to him
expanding the borders could help prides being more dispersed and not controled by the same males but its very difficult to get it done
Now a theory of mine- could artificial insemination help with the genetics? Like we inseminate a pride with a pride male/coalition with sperm from other lions from other reserves, zoos or even sanctuaries ?
the problem is how would we know if the cubs are from the resident dominant male or the artificial insemination? I dont know
and would the male accept the cubs? I dont know too
anyway what are you guys opinions on that
I dont know if I should post this here or at all and even if it makes sense with my broken english
That was pretty perfect English to be honest, I can guarantee u every member understood all that. I look at it like this, majority of these lions are somewhat related, but not enough for it to trouble us, more so related many generations ahead. Theres not enough cases like Tintswalos with Mbiris for reserves to think about relocating males or whole prides.
Speaking about this actually, the famous lion Tembe was relocated to better the genetics of the area he was moved into and well his son was also relocated recently too for obvious reasons. His son, only 3.5 years old already killed the dominant male of the new reserve he was moved into so even if they wanted to move all these males, it definitely wouldn’t be easy to do and wouldn’t exactly be fair for the resident males like u already pointed out.
First of all thank you, I was worried I couldnt express myself in the correct way lol
Yeah I agree with you on that, you might have a case similar to Tinswalos with the Nkuhumas if Khanya and Nkuhuma decide to claim that pride for themselfs but also with the Kambulas theres like 2 females from the Birminghams there and I dont know if any of the avoca daughters are from there them
But so far thats only specific cases and let nature take its course
What worries me quite a bit and thats only speculation by this point is the fact that all sabi sands right now is surrounded by Mantimhales, PCM and Nkhulus who are all brothers, I think last time we had a case where that many closely related coalitions in sabi sands were with WSM descendants? Might be wrong, and that sorted by itself so we´ll see how it turns out
About the case you mentioned, were they moved to a close gated small reserve like Amakale and Madikwe or inside Kruger
In my perspective inside a small closed reserved ( small when compared to Kruger) relocating adult or sub adult male lions into the reserve isnt a great option
At that point you might aswell say you want them to finish off the resident males so they can breed with the lionesses
In that case you either swap the pride males from one reserve to the other like they did a couple weeks ago
Or artificially inseminate the lionesses with sperm from other lions to refresh the genetic pool
I think with the Mantimahle bloodline it’s easy to look at it now and think how this isn’t ideal for Sabi Sands, but we need to take into account that not all offspring deriving from PCMs, Mantimahle and Nkhulus will survive, and even fewer will settle down in Sabi Sands. Maybe a problem for the future but not right now.
The young male was moved into Dinokeng which I’m guessing is a small reserve, both as I’ve never heard of it and it’s usually the smaller reserves that new males are relocated into. I remember watching a video from Shamwari Game Reserve and they spoke about how common it is for reserves to be in contact with each other about essentially switching male lions to better their own genetics.
In their case, it didn’t exactly work as the introduction of ‘Jack the handsome nomad’ put pressure on one of the dominant males at the time, who then responded by allowing his son to join the coalition. Ironically them trying to reduce the amount of inbreeding only helped increase the chance of it happening.
Wow but thats the thing, what do they expect the resident males to do, just leave the pride because theres a new male or die? They could´ve just moved the resident male to allow a new comer to take the pride, I know its not that simple but doesnt seem that difficult either oh well ironic to say the least
While I, personally, disagree with the method that has been used in many of these translocations (recent moving of the Mjejane Pride, which I am about to post a possible update on that situation as well), I do understand the need for them, if done correctly. I do not believe there is any way they can be done that does not come with some risks. Even when you have translocated two resident males, from one reserve to the other, essentially swapping these males, there remains risks to the resident pride females, who themselves may be killed in an attempt to fight off the new intruder, or perhaps to protect cubs if there are any, and the likelihood that any/all cubs will be killed as well.
Then the areas to which some of these lions are moved to, namely the choice to move lions to the far northern reaches of Kruger, which as we have seen, there is a reason there are so few lions who exist there, to move them there is almost a death sentence. Not to mention they left the young Mjejane male behind, on a private reserve that is know for the killing of lions, almost assuring him of a terrible fate as well.
So, while there does exist a safer method of doing this, I do not believe there is any way it can be done that insures the lives of all the lions involved. However, at the same time, we must consider that no lion is safe in the wild, either. The only difference is, when a lion is killed in the wild, be it by a hunting accident, or at the paws of other lions, people simply accept that as an example of how risky it is to simply be a lion. But, just as with what happened with the three Addo males, even something as unpredictable as the two brothers killing the third the moment the anesthesia wore off, followed by the brutal death of the second brother by the two resident males, who were already battle tested, older than the Addo boys, and much larger, because humans were involved in translocating those three young males, the uproar was immediate, people immediately blamed the humans involved in the translocation of those males, for their deaths, and I believe some of that may well have been justified.
Can you account for all possible dangers? No, certainly nobody could have predicted that the two brothers would immediately attack the third, the moment they awoke, but surely they could have taken into consideration the likelihood of conflict with the older and larger territorial males.
Could you explain why northen Kruger has fewer lions? Human hand involved? lack of prey?
I agree with the take " theres a risk in everything" but it should be analyzed and studied every single possible dependent variable ( as far as possible is what Im trying to say)
In kruger thats almost impossible because if we relocate for example a young coalition, theres isnt anything holding them there and they can very much walk to their originally territory of choice
In a small closed reserve however ( with 3, 4 prides max) its much easier to assure the safety of every lion involved when you do a relocation, Im against relocating new males to reserves where theres already resident pride males, becuase thats pretty much asking for the new males killl the resident
However in those small reserves is much easier to ensure a proper introduction of males to a new territory and pride ( always with a % of risk of course)
Its even possible to "artificially" if I can use that term to form coalitions with lone males spread thru the reserve
To sumarize, I agree alot with your premise lmao
(09-02-2024, 06:09 PM)KM600 Wrote: Adding onto this, it’s been a while since the PCMs were even seen mating with the Nkuhumas. Three Nkuhuma lionesses seem to have accepted them completely but the rest don’t seem to be sure, their age doesn’t help either. I actually look at none of the lionesses seemingly pregnant, yet, as a good thing. The PCMs don’t have a stronghold on the North to protect even more of their own cubs.
Ideally, Kambulas take whole NKs and manage to keep PCMs west, this outcome would be best for all parties, including PCMs western prides Mhangenis and Ximhungwes.
Question is are Kambulas interested and capable of doing that.
I understand when you say Kambulas taking over the whole nkuhuma pride would be the ideal situation
However I´ve been wanting to discuss something here in wildfact for a while but never seen a way to get it started
Genetics- So we all know theres alot of inbreeding around the whole Kruger and what those cases could do to lion population
We are in a phase that it seems that we should prioritize lion numbers over their genetic health
Perhaps we are already seeing some cases of inbreeding complications on lions around the reserve for example: some infertile females, wide set eyes ( like we see in captivity felines victims or exessive inbreding), obviously inbreeding makes recessive genes show up more ( like the white lions in Timbavati), behavior changes ( Im not an expert on that but maybe) and so on, not to talk about health risks and common health deficiences
Sabi sands , Maniyeleti and Timbavati arent the worst zones of Kruger where that is happening, if we look north of Klaserie things seem to be even worse, most prides there are descendants of Birmingham and Ross prides and they´ve been mating with eachoter for quite some time, because only occasionally a lion or two from Timbavati/Thornybush goes up there etc...
If we look into the south of Kruger the family tree there looks like a basket ball, he have the same names everywhere etc...
Im sorry for only now talking about the Kambulas and Nkuhumas
So as we know Kambulas and Nkuhumas share the same blood from the Birminghams, would it be ideal to them taking over the Nkuhuma pride or perhas a coaliton like 2 Mantimahale males be better to refresh the genetic pool or even some males comming from Kruger like what happend with he Ndhzengas or Gijimas
Where would the Kambulas go? well you have prides like Imbali and Mbiris that still being related to them arent as close ( the Nharus are a big no no in terms of genetics for them), if we look south everything the sun touches in sabi sands seems to have been touched by their fathers or grandpas
Obviously we cant control where they decide to go, and shouldn´t
Nkuhumas in genetic terms seem to have bads options all around:
PCM- they already have what 4 prides? in the future half the reserve would be their descendant even worse with their half brothers the Nkhulus south reproducing aswell
Mantimhale males- same problem, if the PCM descendants reach adulthood they would be cousins to any Nkuhuma descendants who also reach adulthood
Khanya and Nkuhuma- I MEAN
Kambulas- have some sisters and nieces in the pride
Ndzhengas- seem to be the better option, but they already have two big prides an enormous territory and being only two males now, cant really have everything from on end of MalaMala to djuma
But how would Kruger national park resolve this inbreeding problem and if you guys think its really a problem to be resolved at all
Relocating lions seems a bad ideia, imagine if we relocate a coaliton of 4 to a place where theres only a lone pride male, quite unfair to him
expanding the borders could help prides being more dispersed and not controled by the same males but its very difficult to get it done
Now a theory of mine- could artificial insemination help with the genetics? Like we inseminate a pride with a pride male/coalition with sperm from other lions from other reserves, zoos or even sanctuaries ?
the problem is how would we know if the cubs are from the resident dominant male or the artificial insemination? I dont know
and would the male accept the cubs? I dont know too
anyway what are you guys opinions on that
I dont know if I should post this here or at all and even if it makes sense with my broken english
That was pretty perfect English to be honest, I can guarantee u every member understood all that. I look at it like this, majority of these lions are somewhat related, but not enough for it to trouble us, more so related many generations ahead. Theres not enough cases like Tintswalos with Mbiris for reserves to think about relocating males or whole prides.
Speaking about this actually, the famous lion Tembe was relocated to better the genetics of the area he was moved into and well his son was also relocated recently too for obvious reasons. His son, only 3.5 years old already killed the dominant male of the new reserve he was moved into so even if they wanted to move all these males, it definitely wouldn’t be easy to do and wouldn’t exactly be fair for the resident males like u already pointed out.
First of all thank you, I was worried I couldnt express myself in the correct way lol
Yeah I agree with you on that, you might have a case similar to Tinswalos with the Nkuhumas if Khanya and Nkuhuma decide to claim that pride for themselfs but also with the Kambulas theres like 2 females from the Birminghams there and I dont know if any of the avoca daughters are from there them
But so far thats only specific cases and let nature take its course
What worries me quite a bit and thats only speculation by this point is the fact that all sabi sands right now is surrounded by Mantimhales, PCM and Nkhulus who are all brothers, I think last time we had a case where that many closely related coalitions in sabi sands were with WSM descendants? Might be wrong, and that sorted by itself so we´ll see how it turns out
About the case you mentioned, were they moved to a close gated small reserve like Amakale and Madikwe or inside Kruger
In my perspective inside a small closed reserved ( small when compared to Kruger) relocating adult or sub adult male lions into the reserve isnt a great option
At that point you might aswell say you want them to finish off the resident males so they can breed with the lionesses
In that case you either swap the pride males from one reserve to the other like they did a couple weeks ago
Or artificially inseminate the lionesses with sperm from other lions to refresh the genetic pool
I think with the Mantimahle bloodline it’s easy to look at it now and think how this isn’t ideal for Sabi Sands, but we need to take into account that not all offspring deriving from PCMs, Mantimahle and Nkhulus will survive, and even fewer will settle down in Sabi Sands. Maybe a problem for the future but not right now.
The young male was moved into Dinokeng which I’m guessing is a small reserve, both as I’ve never heard of it and it’s usually the smaller reserves that new males are relocated into. I remember watching a video from Shamwari Game Reserve and they spoke about how common it is for reserves to be in contact with each other about essentially switching male lions to better their own genetics.
In their case, it didn’t exactly work as the introduction of ‘Jack the handsome nomad’ put pressure on one of the dominant males at the time, who then responded by allowing his son to join the coalition. Ironically them trying to reduce the amount of inbreeding only helped increase the chance of it happening.
Wow but thats the thing, what do they expect the resident males to do, just leave the pride because theres a new male or die? They could´ve just moved the resident male to allow a new comer to take the pride, I know its not that simple but doesnt seem that difficult either oh well ironic to say the least
While I, personally, disagree with the method that has been used in many of these translocations (recent moving of the Mjejane Pride, which I am about to post a possible update on that situation as well), I do understand the need for them, if done correctly. I do not believe there is any way they can be done that does not come with some risks. Even when you have translocated two resident males, from one reserve to the other, essentially swapping these males, there remains risks to the resident pride females, who themselves may be killed in an attempt to fight off the new intruder, or perhaps to protect cubs if there are any, and the likelihood that any/all cubs will be killed as well.
Then the areas to which some of these lions are moved to, namely the choice to move lions to the far northern reaches of Kruger, which as we have seen, there is a reason there are so few lions who exist there, to move them there is almost a death sentence. Not to mention they left the young Mjejane male behind, on a private reserve that is know for the killing of lions, almost assuring him of a terrible fate as well.
So, while there does exist a safer method of doing this, I do not believe there is any way it can be done that insures the lives of all the lions involved. However, at the same time, we must consider that no lion is safe in the wild, either. The only difference is, when a lion is killed in the wild, be it by a hunting accident, or at the paws of other lions, people simply accept that as an example of how risky it is to simply be a lion. But, just as with what happened with the three Addo males, even something as unpredictable as the two brothers killing the third the moment the anesthesia wore off, followed by the brutal death of the second brother by the two resident males, who were already battle tested, older than the Addo boys, and much larger, because humans were involved in translocating those three young males, the uproar was immediate, people immediately blamed the humans involved in the translocation of those males, for their deaths, and I believe some of that may well have been justified.
Can you account for all possible dangers? No, certainly nobody could have predicted that the two brothers would immediately attack the third, the moment they awoke, but surely they could have taken into consideration the likelihood of conflict with the older and larger territorial males.
Could you explain why northen Kruger has fewer lions? Human hand involved? lack of prey?
I agree with the take " theres a risk in everything" but it should be analyzed and studied every single possible dependent variable ( as far as possible is what Im trying to say)
In kruger thats almost impossible because if we relocate for example a young coalition, theres isnt anything holding them there and they can very much walk to their originally territory of choice
In a small closed reserve however ( with 3, 4 prides max) its much easier to assure the safety of every lion involved when you do a relocation, Im against relocating new males to reserves where theres already resident pride males, becuase thats pretty much asking for the new males killl the resident
However in those small reserves is much easier to ensure a proper introduction of males to a new territory and pride ( always with a % of risk of course)
Its even possible to "artificially" if I can use that term to form coalitions with lone males spread thru the reserve
To sumarize, I agree alot with your premise lmao
Northern Kruger is a hellscape for wildlife as it's a lawless wasteland full of poachers and almost no protections. Lions sent to Northern Kruger are basically being sent to slaughter.
09-03-2024, 12:49 AM( This post was last modified: 09-03-2024, 12:51 AM by Rabubi )
(09-02-2024, 07:38 PM)Rui Ferreira Wrote:
(09-02-2024, 06:31 PM)Tr1x24 Wrote:
(09-02-2024, 06:09 PM)KM600 Wrote: Adding onto this, it’s been a while since the PCMs were even seen mating with the Nkuhumas. Three Nkuhuma lionesses seem to have accepted them completely but the rest don’t seem to be sure, their age doesn’t help either. I actually look at none of the lionesses seemingly pregnant, yet, as a good thing. The PCMs don’t have a stronghold on the North to protect even more of their own cubs.
Ideally, Kambulas take whole NKs and manage to keep PCMs west, this outcome would be best for all parties, including PCMs western prides Mhangenis and Ximhungwes.
Question is are Kambulas interested and capable of doing that.
I understand when you say Kambulas taking over the whole nkuhuma pride would be the ideal situation
However I´ve been wanting to discuss something here in wildfact for a while but never seen a way to get it started
Genetics- So we all know theres alot of inbreeding around the whole Kruger and what those cases could do to lion population
We are in a phase that it seems that we should prioritize lion numbers over their genetic health
Perhaps we are already seeing some cases of inbreeding complications on lions around the reserve for example: some infertile females, wide set eyes ( like we see in captivity felines victims or exessive inbreding), obviously inbreeding makes recessive genes show up more ( like the white lions in Timbavati), behavior changes ( Im not an expert on that but maybe) and so on, not to talk about health risks and common health deficiences
Sabi sands , Maniyeleti and Timbavati arent the worst zones of Kruger where that is happening, if we look north of Klaserie things seem to be even worse, most prides there are descendants of Birmingham and Ross prides and they´ve been mating with eachoter for quite some time, because only occasionally a lion or two from Timbavati/Thornybush goes up there etc...
If we look into the south of Kruger the family tree there looks like a basket ball, he have the same names everywhere etc...
Im sorry for only now talking about the Kambulas and Nkuhumas
So as we know Kambulas and Nkuhumas share the same blood from the Birminghams, would it be ideal to them taking over the Nkuhuma pride or perhas a coaliton like 2 Mantimahale males be better to refresh the genetic pool or even some males comming from Kruger like what happend with he Ndhzengas or Gijimas
Where would the Kambulas go? well you have prides like Imbali and Mbiris that still being related to them arent as close ( the Nharus are a big no no in terms of genetics for them), if we look south everything the sun touches in sabi sands seems to have been touched by their fathers or grandpas
Obviously we cant control where they decide to go, and shouldn´t
Nkuhumas in genetic terms seem to have bads options all around:
PCM- they already have what 4 prides? in the future half the reserve would be their descendant even worse with their half brothers the Nkhulus south reproducing aswell
Mantimhale males- same problem, if the PCM descendants reach adulthood they would be cousins to any Nkuhuma descendants who also reach adulthood
Khanya and Nkuhuma- I MEAN
Kambulas- have some sisters and nieces in the pride
Ndzhengas- seem to be the better option, but they already have two big prides an enormous territory and being only two males now, cant really have everything from on end of MalaMala to djuma
But how would Kruger national park resolve this inbreeding problem and if you guys think its really a problem to be resolved at all
Relocating lions seems a bad ideia, imagine if we relocate a coaliton of 4 to a place where theres only a lone pride male, quite unfair to him
expanding the borders could help prides being more dispersed and not controled by the same males but its very difficult to get it done
Now a theory of mine- could artificial insemination help with the genetics? Like we inseminate a pride with a pride male/coalition with sperm from other lions from other reserves, zoos or even sanctuaries ?
the problem is how would we know if the cubs are from the resident dominant male or the artificial insemination? I dont know
and would the male accept the cubs? I dont know too
anyway what are you guys opinions on that
I dont know if I should post this here or at all and even if it makes sense with my broken english
As @KM600 mentioned, the lions in the Sabi Sands, Manyeleti and Timbavati/Klaserie regions are somewhat related but still genetically diverse enough to be a healthy population. Besides, the population of those lions in all these private reserves combined is still a fraction of the total population of Kruger lions (and that's not counting lions that come from Mozambique) so the genetic diversity overall is still healthy.
Therefore there is no need to intervene in this case because in time new unrelated males will disperse from other parts of Kruger to these private reserves and take over the resident prides there.
Not too long ago the Sabi Sands lions were of Mapogo, Majingilane, Matimba, Birmingham and Avoca. Now the Ndzenghas, Gijimas and Plains Camp males have added new blood to the SS gene pool without the need for translocations, artificial insemination, etc. It all happened naturally. As long as we can protect, expand and connect wilderness areas and keep the human elements of conservation under control (law enforcement, community engagement and empowerment, infrastructure development, etc.), Mother Nature will balance things out as always.
09-03-2024, 02:04 AM( This post was last modified: 09-03-2024, 02:04 AM by BA0701 )
(09-02-2024, 11:10 PM)Rui Ferreira Wrote:
(09-02-2024, 10:00 PM)BA0701 Wrote:
(09-02-2024, 09:12 PM)Rui Ferreira Wrote:
(09-02-2024, 08:50 PM)KM600 Wrote:
(09-02-2024, 08:29 PM)Rui Ferreira Wrote:
(09-02-2024, 07:57 PM)KM600 Wrote:
(09-02-2024, 07:38 PM)Rui Ferreira Wrote:
(09-02-2024, 06:31 PM)Tr1x24 Wrote:
(09-02-2024, 06:09 PM)KM600 Wrote: Adding onto this, it’s been a while since the PCMs were even seen mating with the Nkuhumas. Three Nkuhuma lionesses seem to have accepted them completely but the rest don’t seem to be sure, their age doesn’t help either. I actually look at none of the lionesses seemingly pregnant, yet, as a good thing. The PCMs don’t have a stronghold on the North to protect even more of their own cubs.
Ideally, Kambulas take whole NKs and manage to keep PCMs west, this outcome would be best for all parties, including PCMs western prides Mhangenis and Ximhungwes.
Question is are Kambulas interested and capable of doing that.
I understand when you say Kambulas taking over the whole nkuhuma pride would be the ideal situation
However I´ve been wanting to discuss something here in wildfact for a while but never seen a way to get it started
Genetics- So we all know theres alot of inbreeding around the whole Kruger and what those cases could do to lion population
We are in a phase that it seems that we should prioritize lion numbers over their genetic health
Perhaps we are already seeing some cases of inbreeding complications on lions around the reserve for example: some infertile females, wide set eyes ( like we see in captivity felines victims or exessive inbreding), obviously inbreeding makes recessive genes show up more ( like the white lions in Timbavati), behavior changes ( Im not an expert on that but maybe) and so on, not to talk about health risks and common health deficiences
Sabi sands , Maniyeleti and Timbavati arent the worst zones of Kruger where that is happening, if we look north of Klaserie things seem to be even worse, most prides there are descendants of Birmingham and Ross prides and they´ve been mating with eachoter for quite some time, because only occasionally a lion or two from Timbavati/Thornybush goes up there etc...
If we look into the south of Kruger the family tree there looks like a basket ball, he have the same names everywhere etc...
Im sorry for only now talking about the Kambulas and Nkuhumas
So as we know Kambulas and Nkuhumas share the same blood from the Birminghams, would it be ideal to them taking over the Nkuhuma pride or perhas a coaliton like 2 Mantimahale males be better to refresh the genetic pool or even some males comming from Kruger like what happend with he Ndhzengas or Gijimas
Where would the Kambulas go? well you have prides like Imbali and Mbiris that still being related to them arent as close ( the Nharus are a big no no in terms of genetics for them), if we look south everything the sun touches in sabi sands seems to have been touched by their fathers or grandpas
Obviously we cant control where they decide to go, and shouldn´t
Nkuhumas in genetic terms seem to have bads options all around:
PCM- they already have what 4 prides? in the future half the reserve would be their descendant even worse with their half brothers the Nkhulus south reproducing aswell
Mantimhale males- same problem, if the PCM descendants reach adulthood they would be cousins to any Nkuhuma descendants who also reach adulthood
Khanya and Nkuhuma- I MEAN
Kambulas- have some sisters and nieces in the pride
Ndzhengas- seem to be the better option, but they already have two big prides an enormous territory and being only two males now, cant really have everything from on end of MalaMala to djuma
But how would Kruger national park resolve this inbreeding problem and if you guys think its really a problem to be resolved at all
Relocating lions seems a bad ideia, imagine if we relocate a coaliton of 4 to a place where theres only a lone pride male, quite unfair to him
expanding the borders could help prides being more dispersed and not controled by the same males but its very difficult to get it done
Now a theory of mine- could artificial insemination help with the genetics? Like we inseminate a pride with a pride male/coalition with sperm from other lions from other reserves, zoos or even sanctuaries ?
the problem is how would we know if the cubs are from the resident dominant male or the artificial insemination? I dont know
and would the male accept the cubs? I dont know too
anyway what are you guys opinions on that
I dont know if I should post this here or at all and even if it makes sense with my broken english
That was pretty perfect English to be honest, I can guarantee u every member understood all that. I look at it like this, majority of these lions are somewhat related, but not enough for it to trouble us, more so related many generations ahead. Theres not enough cases like Tintswalos with Mbiris for reserves to think about relocating males or whole prides.
Speaking about this actually, the famous lion Tembe was relocated to better the genetics of the area he was moved into and well his son was also relocated recently too for obvious reasons. His son, only 3.5 years old already killed the dominant male of the new reserve he was moved into so even if they wanted to move all these males, it definitely wouldn’t be easy to do and wouldn’t exactly be fair for the resident males like u already pointed out.
First of all thank you, I was worried I couldnt express myself in the correct way lol
Yeah I agree with you on that, you might have a case similar to Tinswalos with the Nkuhumas if Khanya and Nkuhuma decide to claim that pride for themselfs but also with the Kambulas theres like 2 females from the Birminghams there and I dont know if any of the avoca daughters are from there them
But so far thats only specific cases and let nature take its course
What worries me quite a bit and thats only speculation by this point is the fact that all sabi sands right now is surrounded by Mantimhales, PCM and Nkhulus who are all brothers, I think last time we had a case where that many closely related coalitions in sabi sands were with WSM descendants? Might be wrong, and that sorted by itself so we´ll see how it turns out
About the case you mentioned, were they moved to a close gated small reserve like Amakale and Madikwe or inside Kruger
In my perspective inside a small closed reserved ( small when compared to Kruger) relocating adult or sub adult male lions into the reserve isnt a great option
At that point you might aswell say you want them to finish off the resident males so they can breed with the lionesses
In that case you either swap the pride males from one reserve to the other like they did a couple weeks ago
Or artificially inseminate the lionesses with sperm from other lions to refresh the genetic pool
I think with the Mantimahle bloodline it’s easy to look at it now and think how this isn’t ideal for Sabi Sands, but we need to take into account that not all offspring deriving from PCMs, Mantimahle and Nkhulus will survive, and even fewer will settle down in Sabi Sands. Maybe a problem for the future but not right now.
The young male was moved into Dinokeng which I’m guessing is a small reserve, both as I’ve never heard of it and it’s usually the smaller reserves that new males are relocated into. I remember watching a video from Shamwari Game Reserve and they spoke about how common it is for reserves to be in contact with each other about essentially switching male lions to better their own genetics.
In their case, it didn’t exactly work as the introduction of ‘Jack the handsome nomad’ put pressure on one of the dominant males at the time, who then responded by allowing his son to join the coalition. Ironically them trying to reduce the amount of inbreeding only helped increase the chance of it happening.
Wow but thats the thing, what do they expect the resident males to do, just leave the pride because theres a new male or die? They could´ve just moved the resident male to allow a new comer to take the pride, I know its not that simple but doesnt seem that difficult either oh well ironic to say the least
While I, personally, disagree with the method that has been used in many of these translocations (recent moving of the Mjejane Pride, which I am about to post a possible update on that situation as well), I do understand the need for them, if done correctly. I do not believe there is any way they can be done that does not come with some risks. Even when you have translocated two resident males, from one reserve to the other, essentially swapping these males, there remains risks to the resident pride females, who themselves may be killed in an attempt to fight off the new intruder, or perhaps to protect cubs if there are any, and the likelihood that any/all cubs will be killed as well.
Then the areas to which some of these lions are moved to, namely the choice to move lions to the far northern reaches of Kruger, which as we have seen, there is a reason there are so few lions who exist there, to move them there is almost a death sentence. Not to mention they left the young Mjejane male behind, on a private reserve that is know for the killing of lions, almost assuring him of a terrible fate as well.
So, while there does exist a safer method of doing this, I do not believe there is any way it can be done that insures the lives of all the lions involved. However, at the same time, we must consider that no lion is safe in the wild, either. The only difference is, when a lion is killed in the wild, be it by a hunting accident, or at the paws of other lions, people simply accept that as an example of how risky it is to simply be a lion. But, just as with what happened with the three Addo males, even something as unpredictable as the two brothers killing the third the moment the anesthesia wore off, followed by the brutal death of the second brother by the two resident males, who were already battle tested, older than the Addo boys, and much larger, because humans were involved in translocating those three young males, the uproar was immediate, people immediately blamed the humans involved in the translocation of those males, for their deaths, and I believe some of that may well have been justified.
Can you account for all possible dangers? No, certainly nobody could have predicted that the two brothers would immediately attack the third, the moment they awoke, but surely they could have taken into consideration the likelihood of conflict with the older and larger territorial males.
Could you explain why northen Kruger has fewer lions? Human hand involved? lack of prey?
I agree with the take " theres a risk in everything" but it should be analyzed and studied every single possible dependent variable ( as far as possible is what Im trying to say)
In kruger thats almost impossible because if we relocate for example a young coalition, theres isnt anything holding them there and they can very much walk to their originally territory of choice
In a small closed reserve however ( with 3, 4 prides max) its much easier to assure the safety of every lion involved when you do a relocation, Im against relocating new males to reserves where theres already resident pride males, becuase thats pretty much asking for the new males killl the resident
However in those small reserves is much easier to ensure a proper introduction of males to a new territory and pride ( always with a % of risk of course)
Its even possible to "artificially" if I can use that term to form coalitions with lone males spread thru the reserve
To sumarize, I agree alot with your premise lmao
It is funny, that you asked about Northern Kruger, as that very situation is mentioned in the article I posted in the South Africa, Zimbabwe, and Namibia thread, as you can see here:
There is a very high risk of poaching, as well as documented poisonings that happen up in that zone regularly, where carcasses are intentionally laced with poison, killing several different species.
As you mentioned, there are a number of factors involved in translocations, and as long as all of those factors are accounted for, and things are done as safely as they can be for the safety of all of the animals involved, then I see such relocations as a positive thing, especially when we're talking about these smaller reserves, that are entirely fenced off. As you mentioned there are ways to slowly introduce males to the existing prides, but is that how such things happen in the wild? Such tactics are used in zoos. Then, in my eyes, the question becomes at what point are humans becoming too involved in things that nature has previously accounted for naturally, when we have begun guiding the outcomes ourselves? Such things are like walking on the edge of a knife, you know going in you are going to get cut. Nature is allowed to take it's course in Kruger and Sabi Sands, for the most part, very little human intervention, and the creatures who call those places home appear to be doing rather well, naturally.
I was a child in the 60s and 70s, in Florida. during a time when it was completely illegal to hunt, or harass in any way, our native alligators, we saw them regularly, but we left them alone, as it was against the law, and those laws were strictly enforced. Now, when you go out into the same places we swam as kids, they are all infested with gators, and I would not permit my kids to swim in those same places. Man was removed from the equation, nature was permitted to progress as she pleased, and the population has increased exponentially. Perhaps that is the answer, perhaps they simply need to enforce the laws that have been on the books for many years, and leave it to nature to repair the damage we have done, I can assure that she will.
(09-02-2024, 06:09 PM)KM600 Wrote: Adding onto this, it’s been a while since the PCMs were even seen mating with the Nkuhumas. Three Nkuhuma lionesses seem to have accepted them completely but the rest don’t seem to be sure, their age doesn’t help either. I actually look at none of the lionesses seemingly pregnant, yet, as a good thing. The PCMs don’t have a stronghold on the North to protect even more of their own cubs.
Ideally, Kambulas take whole NKs and manage to keep PCMs west, this outcome would be best for all parties, including PCMs western prides Mhangenis and Ximhungwes.
Question is are Kambulas interested and capable of doing that.
I understand when you say Kambulas taking over the whole nkuhuma pride would be the ideal situation
However I´ve been wanting to discuss something here in wildfact for a while but never seen a way to get it started
Genetics- So we all know theres alot of inbreeding around the whole Kruger and what those cases could do to lion population
We are in a phase that it seems that we should prioritize lion numbers over their genetic health
Perhaps we are already seeing some cases of inbreeding complications on lions around the reserve for example: some infertile females, wide set eyes ( like we see in captivity felines victims or exessive inbreding), obviously inbreeding makes recessive genes show up more ( like the white lions in Timbavati), behavior changes ( Im not an expert on that but maybe) and so on, not to talk about health risks and common health deficiences
Sabi sands , Maniyeleti and Timbavati arent the worst zones of Kruger where that is happening, if we look north of Klaserie things seem to be even worse, most prides there are descendants of Birmingham and Ross prides and they´ve been mating with eachoter for quite some time, because only occasionally a lion or two from Timbavati/Thornybush goes up there etc...
If we look into the south of Kruger the family tree there looks like a basket ball, he have the same names everywhere etc...
Im sorry for only now talking about the Kambulas and Nkuhumas
So as we know Kambulas and Nkuhumas share the same blood from the Birminghams, would it be ideal to them taking over the Nkuhuma pride or perhas a coaliton like 2 Mantimahale males be better to refresh the genetic pool or even some males comming from Kruger like what happend with he Ndhzengas or Gijimas
Where would the Kambulas go? well you have prides like Imbali and Mbiris that still being related to them arent as close ( the Nharus are a big no no in terms of genetics for them), if we look south everything the sun touches in sabi sands seems to have been touched by their fathers or grandpas
Obviously we cant control where they decide to go, and shouldn´t
Nkuhumas in genetic terms seem to have bads options all around:
PCM- they already have what 4 prides? in the future half the reserve would be their descendant even worse with their half brothers the Nkhulus south reproducing aswell
Mantimhale males- same problem, if the PCM descendants reach adulthood they would be cousins to any Nkuhuma descendants who also reach adulthood
Khanya and Nkuhuma- I MEAN
Kambulas- have some sisters and nieces in the pride
Ndzhengas- seem to be the better option, but they already have two big prides an enormous territory and being only two males now, cant really have everything from on end of MalaMala to djuma
But how would Kruger national park resolve this inbreeding problem and if you guys think its really a problem to be resolved at all
Relocating lions seems a bad ideia, imagine if we relocate a coaliton of 4 to a place where theres only a lone pride male, quite unfair to him
expanding the borders could help prides being more dispersed and not controled by the same males but its very difficult to get it done
Now a theory of mine- could artificial insemination help with the genetics? Like we inseminate a pride with a pride male/coalition with sperm from other lions from other reserves, zoos or even sanctuaries ?
the problem is how would we know if the cubs are from the resident dominant male or the artificial insemination? I dont know
and would the male accept the cubs? I dont know too
anyway what are you guys opinions on that
I dont know if I should post this here or at all and even if it makes sense with my broken english
That was pretty perfect English to be honest, I can guarantee u every member understood all that. I look at it like this, majority of these lions are somewhat related, but not enough for it to trouble us, more so related many generations ahead. Theres not enough cases like Tintswalos with Mbiris for reserves to think about relocating males or whole prides.
Speaking about this actually, the famous lion Tembe was relocated to better the genetics of the area he was moved into and well his son was also relocated recently too for obvious reasons. His son, only 3.5 years old already killed the dominant male of the new reserve he was moved into so even if they wanted to move all these males, it definitely wouldn’t be easy to do and wouldn’t exactly be fair for the resident males like u already pointed out.
First of all thank you, I was worried I couldnt express myself in the correct way lol
Yeah I agree with you on that, you might have a case similar to Tinswalos with the Nkuhumas if Khanya and Nkuhuma decide to claim that pride for themselfs but also with the Kambulas theres like 2 females from the Birminghams there and I dont know if any of the avoca daughters are from there them
But so far thats only specific cases and let nature take its course
What worries me quite a bit and thats only speculation by this point is the fact that all sabi sands right now is surrounded by Mantimhales, PCM and Nkhulus who are all brothers, I think last time we had a case where that many closely related coalitions in sabi sands were with WSM descendants? Might be wrong, and that sorted by itself so we´ll see how it turns out
About the case you mentioned, were they moved to a close gated small reserve like Amakale and Madikwe or inside Kruger
In my perspective inside a small closed reserved ( small when compared to Kruger) relocating adult or sub adult male lions into the reserve isnt a great option
At that point you might aswell say you want them to finish off the resident males so they can breed with the lionesses
In that case you either swap the pride males from one reserve to the other like they did a couple weeks ago
Or artificially inseminate the lionesses with sperm from other lions to refresh the genetic pool
I think with the Mantimahle bloodline it’s easy to look at it now and think how this isn’t ideal for Sabi Sands, but we need to take into account that not all offspring deriving from PCMs, Mantimahle and Nkhulus will survive, and even fewer will settle down in Sabi Sands. Maybe a problem for the future but not right now.
The young male was moved into Dinokeng which I’m guessing is a small reserve, both as I’ve never heard of it and it’s usually the smaller reserves that new males are relocated into. I remember watching a video from Shamwari Game Reserve and they spoke about how common it is for reserves to be in contact with each other about essentially switching male lions to better their own genetics.
In their case, it didn’t exactly work as the introduction of ‘Jack the handsome nomad’ put pressure on one of the dominant males at the time, who then responded by allowing his son to join the coalition. Ironically them trying to reduce the amount of inbreeding only helped increase the chance of it happening.
Wow but thats the thing, what do they expect the resident males to do, just leave the pride because theres a new male or die? They could´ve just moved the resident male to allow a new comer to take the pride, I know its not that simple but doesnt seem that difficult either oh well ironic to say the least
While I, personally, disagree with the method that has been used in many of these translocations (recent moving of the Mjejane Pride, which I am about to post a possible update on that situation as well), I do understand the need for them, if done correctly. I do not believe there is any way they can be done that does not come with some risks. Even when you have translocated two resident males, from one reserve to the other, essentially swapping these males, there remains risks to the resident pride females, who themselves may be killed in an attempt to fight off the new intruder, or perhaps to protect cubs if there are any, and the likelihood that any/all cubs will be killed as well.
Then the areas to which some of these lions are moved to, namely the choice to move lions to the far northern reaches of Kruger, which as we have seen, there is a reason there are so few lions who exist there, to move them there is almost a death sentence. Not to mention they left the young Mjejane male behind, on a private reserve that is know for the killing of lions, almost assuring him of a terrible fate as well.
So, while there does exist a safer method of doing this, I do not believe there is any way it can be done that insures the lives of all the lions involved. However, at the same time, we must consider that no lion is safe in the wild, either. The only difference is, when a lion is killed in the wild, be it by a hunting accident, or at the paws of other lions, people simply accept that as an example of how risky it is to simply be a lion. But, just as with what happened with the three Addo males, even something as unpredictable as the two brothers killing the third the moment the anesthesia wore off, followed by the brutal death of the second brother by the two resident males, who were already battle tested, older than the Addo boys, and much larger, because humans were involved in translocating those three young males, the uproar was immediate, people immediately blamed the humans involved in the translocation of those males, for their deaths, and I believe some of that may well have been justified.
Can you account for all possible dangers? No, certainly nobody could have predicted that the two brothers would immediately attack the third, the moment they awoke, but surely they could have taken into consideration the likelihood of conflict with the older and larger territorial males.
Could you explain why northen Kruger has fewer lions? Human hand involved? lack of prey?
I agree with the take " theres a risk in everything" but it should be analyzed and studied every single possible dependent variable ( as far as possible is what Im trying to say)
In kruger thats almost impossible because if we relocate for example a young coalition, theres isnt anything holding them there and they can very much walk to their originally territory of choice
In a small closed reserve however ( with 3, 4 prides max) its much easier to assure the safety of every lion involved when you do a relocation, Im against relocating new males to reserves where theres already resident pride males, becuase thats pretty much asking for the new males killl the resident
However in those small reserves is much easier to ensure a proper introduction of males to a new territory and pride ( always with a % of risk of course)
Its even possible to "artificially" if I can use that term to form coalitions with lone males spread thru the reserve
To sumarize, I agree alot with your premise lmao
It is funny, that you asked about Northern Kruger, as that very situation is mentioned in the article I posted in the South Africa, Zimbabwe, and Namibia thread, as you can see here:
There is a very high risk of poaching, as well as documented poisonings that happen up in that zone regularly, where carcasses are intentionally laced with poison, killing several different species.
As you mentioned, there are a number of factors involved in translocations, and as long as all of those factors are accounted for, and things are done as safely as they can be for the safety of all of the animals involved, then I see such relocations as a positive thing, especially when we're talking about these smaller reserves, that are entirely fenced off. As you mentioned there are ways to slowly introduce males to the existing prides, but is that how such things happen in the wild? Such tactics are used in zoos. Then, in my eyes, the question becomes at what point are humans becoming too involved in things that nature has previously accounted for naturally, when we have begun guiding the outcomes ourselves? Such things are like walking on the edge of a knife, you know going in you are going to get cut. Nature is allowed to take it's course in Kruger and Sabi Sands, for the most part, very little human intervention, and the creatures who call those places home appear to be doing rather well, naturally.
I was a child in the 60s and 70s, in Florida. during a time when it was completely illegal to hunt, or harass in any way, our native alligators, we saw them regularly, but we left them alone, as it was against the law, and those laws were strictly enforced. Now, when you go out into the same places we swam as kids, they are all infested with gators, and I would not permit my kids to swim in those same places. Man was removed from the equation, nature was permitted to progress as she pleased, and the population has increased exponentially. Perhaps that is the answer, perhaps they simply need to enforce the laws that have been on the books for many years, and leave it to nature to repair the damage we have done, I can assure that she will.
The more I read about the Mjejane pride situation the harder I face palm myself, this is what Im talking about like, could you do more research on the pride to ensure the safety of all members, are they really that lazy
what pisses me off the most is that theres so many biologists/naturalists wildlife vets around the world that would more than happy to do this type of work and ensure that these interventions are done with head and shoulders
anyway if you dont mind me asking ( I know that this is the Nkuhuma tread I dont know if we are getting a bit off topic here Im sorry )
what is different in terms of conservation on northen Kruger compared to oher lodges like those on sabi sands Timbavati and so on, that theres this eruption of human conflict and poaching/hunting/poisoning? like a monetary problem or something like that?
(09-02-2024, 06:31 PM)Tr1x24 Wrote: Ideally, Kambulas take whole NKs and manage to keep PCMs west, this outcome would be best for all parties, including PCMs western prides Mhangenis and Ximhungwes.
Question is are Kambulas interested and capable of doing that.
I understand when you say Kambulas taking over the whole nkuhuma pride would be the ideal situation
However I´ve been wanting to discuss something here in wildfact for a while but never seen a way to get it started
Genetics- So we all know theres alot of inbreeding around the whole Kruger and what those cases could do to lion population
We are in a phase that it seems that we should prioritize lion numbers over their genetic health
Perhaps we are already seeing some cases of inbreeding complications on lions around the reserve for example: some infertile females, wide set eyes ( like we see in captivity felines victims or exessive inbreding), obviously inbreeding makes recessive genes show up more ( like the white lions in Timbavati), behavior changes ( Im not an expert on that but maybe) and so on, not to talk about health risks and common health deficiences
Sabi sands , Maniyeleti and Timbavati arent the worst zones of Kruger where that is happening, if we look north of Klaserie things seem to be even worse, most prides there are descendants of Birmingham and Ross prides and they´ve been mating with eachoter for quite some time, because only occasionally a lion or two from Timbavati/Thornybush goes up there etc...
If we look into the south of Kruger the family tree there looks like a basket ball, he have the same names everywhere etc...
Im sorry for only now talking about the Kambulas and Nkuhumas
So as we know Kambulas and Nkuhumas share the same blood from the Birminghams, would it be ideal to them taking over the Nkuhuma pride or perhas a coaliton like 2 Mantimahale males be better to refresh the genetic pool or even some males comming from Kruger like what happend with he Ndhzengas or Gijimas
Where would the Kambulas go? well you have prides like Imbali and Mbiris that still being related to them arent as close ( the Nharus are a big no no in terms of genetics for them), if we look south everything the sun touches in sabi sands seems to have been touched by their fathers or grandpas
Obviously we cant control where they decide to go, and shouldn´t
Nkuhumas in genetic terms seem to have bads options all around:
PCM- they already have what 4 prides? in the future half the reserve would be their descendant even worse with their half brothers the Nkhulus south reproducing aswell
Mantimhale males- same problem, if the PCM descendants reach adulthood they would be cousins to any Nkuhuma descendants who also reach adulthood
Khanya and Nkuhuma- I MEAN
Kambulas- have some sisters and nieces in the pride
Ndzhengas- seem to be the better option, but they already have two big prides an enormous territory and being only two males now, cant really have everything from on end of MalaMala to djuma
But how would Kruger national park resolve this inbreeding problem and if you guys think its really a problem to be resolved at all
Relocating lions seems a bad ideia, imagine if we relocate a coaliton of 4 to a place where theres only a lone pride male, quite unfair to him
expanding the borders could help prides being more dispersed and not controled by the same males but its very difficult to get it done
Now a theory of mine- could artificial insemination help with the genetics? Like we inseminate a pride with a pride male/coalition with sperm from other lions from other reserves, zoos or even sanctuaries ?
the problem is how would we know if the cubs are from the resident dominant male or the artificial insemination? I dont know
and would the male accept the cubs? I dont know too
anyway what are you guys opinions on that
I dont know if I should post this here or at all and even if it makes sense with my broken english
That was pretty perfect English to be honest, I can guarantee u every member understood all that. I look at it like this, majority of these lions are somewhat related, but not enough for it to trouble us, more so related many generations ahead. Theres not enough cases like Tintswalos with Mbiris for reserves to think about relocating males or whole prides.
Speaking about this actually, the famous lion Tembe was relocated to better the genetics of the area he was moved into and well his son was also relocated recently too for obvious reasons. His son, only 3.5 years old already killed the dominant male of the new reserve he was moved into so even if they wanted to move all these males, it definitely wouldn’t be easy to do and wouldn’t exactly be fair for the resident males like u already pointed out.
First of all thank you, I was worried I couldnt express myself in the correct way lol
Yeah I agree with you on that, you might have a case similar to Tinswalos with the Nkuhumas if Khanya and Nkuhuma decide to claim that pride for themselfs but also with the Kambulas theres like 2 females from the Birminghams there and I dont know if any of the avoca daughters are from there them
But so far thats only specific cases and let nature take its course
What worries me quite a bit and thats only speculation by this point is the fact that all sabi sands right now is surrounded by Mantimhales, PCM and Nkhulus who are all brothers, I think last time we had a case where that many closely related coalitions in sabi sands were with WSM descendants? Might be wrong, and that sorted by itself so we´ll see how it turns out
About the case you mentioned, were they moved to a close gated small reserve like Amakale and Madikwe or inside Kruger
In my perspective inside a small closed reserved ( small when compared to Kruger) relocating adult or sub adult male lions into the reserve isnt a great option
At that point you might aswell say you want them to finish off the resident males so they can breed with the lionesses
In that case you either swap the pride males from one reserve to the other like they did a couple weeks ago
Or artificially inseminate the lionesses with sperm from other lions to refresh the genetic pool
I think with the Mantimahle bloodline it’s easy to look at it now and think how this isn’t ideal for Sabi Sands, but we need to take into account that not all offspring deriving from PCMs, Mantimahle and Nkhulus will survive, and even fewer will settle down in Sabi Sands. Maybe a problem for the future but not right now.
The young male was moved into Dinokeng which I’m guessing is a small reserve, both as I’ve never heard of it and it’s usually the smaller reserves that new males are relocated into. I remember watching a video from Shamwari Game Reserve and they spoke about how common it is for reserves to be in contact with each other about essentially switching male lions to better their own genetics.
In their case, it didn’t exactly work as the introduction of ‘Jack the handsome nomad’ put pressure on one of the dominant males at the time, who then responded by allowing his son to join the coalition. Ironically them trying to reduce the amount of inbreeding only helped increase the chance of it happening.
Wow but thats the thing, what do they expect the resident males to do, just leave the pride because theres a new male or die? They could´ve just moved the resident male to allow a new comer to take the pride, I know its not that simple but doesnt seem that difficult either oh well ironic to say the least
While I, personally, disagree with the method that has been used in many of these translocations (recent moving of the Mjejane Pride, which I am about to post a possible update on that situation as well), I do understand the need for them, if done correctly. I do not believe there is any way they can be done that does not come with some risks. Even when you have translocated two resident males, from one reserve to the other, essentially swapping these males, there remains risks to the resident pride females, who themselves may be killed in an attempt to fight off the new intruder, or perhaps to protect cubs if there are any, and the likelihood that any/all cubs will be killed as well.
Then the areas to which some of these lions are moved to, namely the choice to move lions to the far northern reaches of Kruger, which as we have seen, there is a reason there are so few lions who exist there, to move them there is almost a death sentence. Not to mention they left the young Mjejane male behind, on a private reserve that is know for the killing of lions, almost assuring him of a terrible fate as well.
So, while there does exist a safer method of doing this, I do not believe there is any way it can be done that insures the lives of all the lions involved. However, at the same time, we must consider that no lion is safe in the wild, either. The only difference is, when a lion is killed in the wild, be it by a hunting accident, or at the paws of other lions, people simply accept that as an example of how risky it is to simply be a lion. But, just as with what happened with the three Addo males, even something as unpredictable as the two brothers killing the third the moment the anesthesia wore off, followed by the brutal death of the second brother by the two resident males, who were already battle tested, older than the Addo boys, and much larger, because humans were involved in translocating those three young males, the uproar was immediate, people immediately blamed the humans involved in the translocation of those males, for their deaths, and I believe some of that may well have been justified.
Can you account for all possible dangers? No, certainly nobody could have predicted that the two brothers would immediately attack the third, the moment they awoke, but surely they could have taken into consideration the likelihood of conflict with the older and larger territorial males.
Could you explain why northen Kruger has fewer lions? Human hand involved? lack of prey?
I agree with the take " theres a risk in everything" but it should be analyzed and studied every single possible dependent variable ( as far as possible is what Im trying to say)
In kruger thats almost impossible because if we relocate for example a young coalition, theres isnt anything holding them there and they can very much walk to their originally territory of choice
In a small closed reserve however ( with 3, 4 prides max) its much easier to assure the safety of every lion involved when you do a relocation, Im against relocating new males to reserves where theres already resident pride males, becuase thats pretty much asking for the new males killl the resident
However in those small reserves is much easier to ensure a proper introduction of males to a new territory and pride ( always with a % of risk of course)
Its even possible to "artificially" if I can use that term to form coalitions with lone males spread thru the reserve
To sumarize, I agree alot with your premise lmao
It is funny, that you asked about Northern Kruger, as that very situation is mentioned in the article I posted in the South Africa, Zimbabwe, and Namibia thread, as you can see here:
There is a very high risk of poaching, as well as documented poisonings that happen up in that zone regularly, where carcasses are intentionally laced with poison, killing several different species.
As you mentioned, there are a number of factors involved in translocations, and as long as all of those factors are accounted for, and things are done as safely as they can be for the safety of all of the animals involved, then I see such relocations as a positive thing, especially when we're talking about these smaller reserves, that are entirely fenced off. As you mentioned there are ways to slowly introduce males to the existing prides, but is that how such things happen in the wild? Such tactics are used in zoos. Then, in my eyes, the question becomes at what point are humans becoming too involved in things that nature has previously accounted for naturally, when we have begun guiding the outcomes ourselves? Such things are like walking on the edge of a knife, you know going in you are going to get cut. Nature is allowed to take it's course in Kruger and Sabi Sands, for the most part, very little human intervention, and the creatures who call those places home appear to be doing rather well, naturally.
I was a child in the 60s and 70s, in Florida. during a time when it was completely illegal to hunt, or harass in any way, our native alligators, we saw them regularly, but we left them alone, as it was against the law, and those laws were strictly enforced. Now, when you go out into the same places we swam as kids, they are all infested with gators, and I would not permit my kids to swim in those same places. Man was removed from the equation, nature was permitted to progress as she pleased, and the population has increased exponentially. Perhaps that is the answer, perhaps they simply need to enforce the laws that have been on the books for many years, and leave it to nature to repair the damage we have done, I can assure that she will.
The more I read about the Mjejane pride situation the harder I face palm myself, this is what Im talking about like, could you do more research on the pride to ensure the safety of all members, are they really that lazy
what pisses me off the most is that theres so many biologists/naturalists wildlife vets around the world that would more than happy to do this type of work and ensure that these interventions are done with head and shoulders
anyway if you dont mind me asking ( I know that this is the Nkuhuma tread I dont know if we are getting a bit off topic here Im sorry )
what is different in terms of conservation on northen Kruger compared to oher lodges like those on sabi sands Timbavati and so on, that theres this eruption of human conflict and poaching/hunting/poisoning? like a monetary problem or something like that?
Yes, I believe our little tangent has occupied the thread intended for our wonderful Nkuhumas, long enough, thank you for pointing it out. I got carried away with the topic, myself, and apologize to everyone. I will answer your question in the Kruger thread, since we are discussing Northern Kruger. If the topic of translocation can generate enough interests and comments, we may actually create a thread for it, as I, personally, believe it is a vital topic, and should be discussed, in depth.
4 Nkuhumas (inlcuding the young male) on a mission this morning. 4 lionesses absent. Could be related to the PC males returning to the Elephant Plains area.
