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Modern weights and measurements on wild tigers
Modern weights and measurements on wild tigers
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Modern weights and measurements on wild tigers
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I think the 280kg tiger in bandhavgarh is pannlal,because bandhavgarh national park has only pannlal male who come from other place.
这是来自其他地方的bandhavgarh老虎和bandhavgarh国家公园地图的消息。 
@woshiniya and @gaodongfang, where did you hear about wildfact. is there a local community where you guys discuss about tigers?
 (09-30-2018, 07:34 AM)Rishi Wrote:(06-23-2018, 01:20 PM)Roflcopters Wrote: Was this personal communication? Does anyone have the information where I can find the weight for this 340 kg male?  (10-02-2018, 12:20 PM)Kingtheropod Wrote:(09-30-2018, 07:34 AM)Rishi Wrote:(06-23-2018, 01:20 PM)Roflcopters Wrote: He messaged WII field researcher Wasif Jamshed on FB i think. (10-02-2018, 08:06 AM)woshiniya Wrote: I think the 280kg tiger in bandhavgarh is pannlal,because bandhavgarh national park has only pannlal male who come from other place. That tiger couldn't be Pannalal (aka. T 71 in Bandhavgarh & P213- 21 in Panna). He was never captured. This tiger was caught in 2016, Pannalal reached Bandhavgarh a few months later. 
Guys, that was direct communication with Wasif.
He said he has measured one that was 345kg and 13.3'' in tbl The one in front of the female is actually a larger male, he said he is almost 400kg and the female in front is weighed according to him at 180kg (10-02-2018, 11:27 AM)gaodongfang Wrote:(10-02-2018, 10:54 AM)Roflcopters Wrote: @woshiniya and @gaodongfang, where did you hear about wildfact. is there a local community where you guys discuss about tigers? Thanks for the acknowledgement but i promise you, I’m just your ordinary guy. welcome to the forum. 
I also communicated with Wasif a couple of times and he told me the same. That he weighed the male at 345 kilo and goes up to 360+ kilo (probably referring to his winter weight) and the female is a 160+ kilo female at 6 years of age. Also that the S-Male killed four fully growns rhinos.
Unconfirmed & not very reliable media reportings from Bangladeshi Sundarbans.
10-year-old emanciated male tiger stranded in Satkhira village, 2012. Claimed to be "10-11 feet long". 9-feet-long 85 kg tiger (sex not mentioned) with a bad injury in front left leg entered village; rescued & sent for treatment to Bangabandhu Rescue Center. 9'7" tiger skin nabbed from poachers on 13th Jan 2015. 10'2", 9'9", 9'3" skins recovered on 16th Feb 2011. From West Bengal, India. About 10 feet male broght to Jharkhali Rescue Centre from Deulbari village, Kultali block. June 30,2017. Injured & weakened male of about 8 feet bright to Alipore zoo on July 16, 2016. One sick male brought to Alipore weighed 98kg & recovered more than 10kgs in the following week. This could be him.  (11-08-2018, 11:24 AM)Kingtheropod Wrote: Tiger from Bhutan weighing 170 kg. This male tiger and other two females of 110 kg and 160 kg each (link: https://borneobulletin.com.bn/bhutan-con...esa-tiger/) are the first weights reported from Bhutan. The figures shows animals of normal size, and somehow remind me when the first weights from Amur tigers started to arise. Take in count that the weight of 160 kg includes, apparently, stomach content. Now, while I am going to focus in these three figures in order to get corroboration of them, I have doubts about all the other figures of measurements and weights presented here. In an old post @Dr Panthera said something very important: most of these "modern" weights are not corroborated by scientists in a document, they are only reports in news papers, webpages or even facebook conversations, which decrease its credibility. I don't want to play like a "devil's advocate", but I think that @Dr Panthera has a point here. So, for the moment, I will focus only in the published measurements and weights, and those confirmed to me with emails. I suggest to all posters to try to corroborate the figures from the news trough emails, or at least try to search published documents in other languages (just like I fount the size and weights of modern Indochinese tigers in a document writen in Thai). It is only my suggestion, for the moment I will try to corroborate these 3 weights from Bhutan and also the weights from the adult animals (2 males and 2 females) radiocollared in Kanha, that apparently bottomed the scales of 500 lb used (according with some Facebook communications posted in this topic). Greetings. (11-09-2018, 08:35 AM)GuateGojira Wrote:Can't say with 100% certainty, but the 160 kg female mentioned above, even though had stomach content, still probably weighed 150 kg empty. Assuming she ate the average amount of food intake like shown by Sunquist (14 kg). She probably would have weighed 140-150 kg empty. Now, that all depending on whether or not she digested all that food by the time of the weighing, so cant say for sure. It would be nice if we had a picture of the tiger, to see its stomach condition.(11-08-2018, 11:24 AM)Kingtheropod Wrote: Tiger from Bhutan weighing 170 kg.
GuateGojira regarding food intake. What is your opinion of the Sunquist figures of food intake. The figures showing food consumption of 14-18.6 kg in a 24 hour period does not necessarily mean they consumed all that in one sitting, meaning that cats could have consumed only 7 kg in one feeding session, and consumed another 7 kg later on in the same day after it digested the previous meal. In other words, the 14 kg daily food intake figure could have consisted of several smaller meals meaning the figures for Sunquist being adjusted to 221 kg (minus 14 kg) could be completely void! In addition, what do you think the correct figure for Sunquist study should be, should we use the 221 kg adjusted figure, or the 235 kg?
I got the idea reading from Nat Geo "It may take days for a tiger to finish eating its kill. Tigers have been known to eat up to 60 pounds (27 kilograms) of meat in one night, but more often they consume about 12 pounds (5 kilograms) during a meal. The cat eats until it's full, and then covers the carcass with leaves and dirt. When it's hungry again, the tiger comes back to feed some more, until the meat is gone." https://www.nationalgeographic.com.au/an...facts.aspx The same also applies for the example above.
@GuateGojira
I hope you are doing well my friend, It's been a while since i took any interest in these type of debates. there are a few things that i wanted to address. Quote:This male tiger and other two females of 110 kg and 160 kg each (link: https://borneobulletin.com.bn/bhutan-con...esa-tiger/) are the first weights reported from Bhutan. The figures shows animals of normal size, and somehow remind me when the first weights from Amur tigers started to arise. Take in count that the weight of 160 kg includes, apparently, stomach content. I just wanted to talk about a few things that you consider normal and also the stomach content argument that you always bring up, which i feel for the most part is irrelevant. first, I am going to talk about the male tiger of 6-7 years of age. there's nothing normal about him to begin with, he went on a long term cattle killing spree and he killed 18 cattles to be exact in a one year span. there is a high chance that he was unfit to survive in the wild and was unable to hunt his normal prey item (reasons unknown), perhaps he was pushed out by the more dominant males and was struggling to get by. in India, at least. any male that that has resorted to killing cattle for long term survival was either old, beaten or had a permanent injury of some sort. the 3 year old sub-adult female of 110kg should classify as a normal animal and the 160kg adult female is certainly a big girl. Quote:Now, while I am going to focus in these three figures in order to get corroboration of them, I have doubts about all the other figures of measurements and weights presented here. In an old post @Dr Panthera said something very important: most of these "modern" weights are not corroborated by scientists in a document, they are only reports in news papers, webpages or even facebook conversations, which decrease its credibility. tiger dynamics are very different from every region, for example. India is very involved with tigers in general. there's tons of pages on facebook alone. vast majority of them run by people in the field. for example, Tigers of Kanha, Tigers of Tadoba, Tiger protection society, Tigers of Central India, Claw - Conservation lenses & Wildlife and many others. you can find many park directors, including tiger experts working in the field, chief conservators of the forest among many others. the platform going on is a very idealistic approach where we not only follow tigers on day to day basis but we also learn everything about individual animals. I personally know of more than half a dozen organizations that follow wildfact anonymously. Wildlife Institute of India, WCS India, WCS Russia, WWF, IFAW etc etc. I think it's a very arrogant statement that you made in regards to the credibility of these sources. you don't always need something on a pdf file for you to freely open for it to be true, i think your opinion of credible differs from the rest of us. you can't discredit the hard work of people that go out of their way to reach out to people in the field and provide answers to us. that's not who we are, we're a forum of tiger enthusiasts that are directly involved ourselves. we are the voices of today and will always remain that way but in order for us to survive. we can never discredit our sources. personally I don't think you should be touching the tiger weight charts if you are going to be selective about it, you can't cherry-pick what you see as credible. just my two cents. Ciao
Regarding roflcopters post above. Im am inclined to agree on the credibility of source section above. Reports from field workers via facebook and news reports directly quoting field workers or project managers should be considered valid unless proven otherwise.
However this only applies if they directly quote an 'In the field worker' or 'project supervisor'  (11-09-2018, 10:21 AM)Kingtheropod Wrote: GuateGojira regarding food intake. What is your opinion of the Sunquist figures of food intake. The figures showing food consumption of 14-18.6 kg in a 24 hour period does not necessarily mean they consumed all that in one sitting, meaning that cats could have consumed only 7 kg in one feeding session, and consumed another 7 kg later on in the same day after it digested the previous meal. In other words, the 14 kg daily food intake figure could have consisted of several smaller meals meaning the figures for Sunquist being adjusted to 221 kg (minus 14 kg) could be completely void! In addition, what do you think the correct figure for Sunquist study should be, should we use the 221 kg adjusted figure, or the 235 kg? 1 - POSTERS, STRIFE AND STOMACH CONTENT - TIGERS Not so long ago, debates about the size of wild big cats were based on books written by forest officers and hunters. The info was collected in a period in which wild big cats were severely hunted. Although they were going downhill rapidly, exceptional individuals were not uncommon in those days. During debates, measurements and weights of exceptional individuals were often targeted. My guess is not only posters were involved. Not seldom, I saw 'unreliable', 'baiting', 'selection', 'maharajahs', '11-inch tapes', 'unreliable scales', 'unsound methods', and all the rest of it. I thought I saw a few lion posters every now and then, but I could be wrong. 2 - THE EFFECTS When most posters, tired of the countless attemps to discredit nearly all sources considered as reliable, settled for the averages found by Dunbar Brander and the Maharajah of Cooch Behar a century ago, new information on the size of wild tigers in southwestern and northern India and Nepal became available. As it was collected by researchers, it was reliable. Not a few posters and researchers were flabberghasted at first. After they had recovered, weights were targeted first. Talking stomach content and unreliable scales. The effect was that researchers, regarding the averages of wild adult male tigers, decided to deduct 30 (Nepal) to 60 (Nagarahole) pounds. Or nothing at all (Russia). And exceptional individuals, like the Sauraha tiger, just to make sure, were more or less dismissed. No good cattle addicts, they were. 3 - CONCLUSIONS I followed the proceedings for quite some time. I won't say I only saw crap, but it was quite clear that most of those involved were guided by something very close to outright preference. In the end, they more or less got what they wanted. Today, most posters immediately deduct 30-60 pounds when weights of wild male tigers are published. Posters driven by preference are no longer needed to question records of wild tigers, that is. A pity it had to come to that, but it more or less fits the climate seen all too often today. In the western hemisphere in particular, a new kind of raw capitalism introduced in the eighties of the previous century resulted in severe strife and quite extreme contrasts. More than before, people join social organisations opposing each other in every possible way. The net result, apart from a loss of quality in general, is distrust. Not between nations, but within them. Social tension and a focus on what is known as 'human interest' are very effective means to divert the attention from things that really matter. All this is without the effects of what became known as 'fake news', of course. The thing to remember is divertion. In some departments of society, the lessons learned during yet another terrible war have now been buried and replaced by something else. What I see is not that different from what those in the thirties of the previous century must have seen. Nothing fake about that. Anyhow. 4 - MODERN WEIGHTS AND RECORDS OF WILD TIGERS This thread has recent information about weights and measurements of wild tigers. How deal with the information posted? 4a - Weight fluctuations in individuals Wild big cats are subject to quite violent weight fluctuations over time. Tiger 'Dale', in the Russian Far East, was heavily involved in adult female brown bears when he was first captured. At 202 kg. (446 pounds), he was the heaviest weighed by researchers in that period. Some time later, on a full stomach, he turned the scales at 375 pounds (170 kg.) only. We don't know what happened, but he lost three canines as well (...). When he was captured a third time, he was fine. On one canine only, he almost got to 200 kg. His average (3 attemps) was just over 192 kg. (425 pounds). Dale wasn't the only adult male Amur tiger who faced hard times. In Wild Russia, the going is tough for professional big game hunters, especially in winter. I never saw a picture of a gorged tiger in Russia. In northern India, Nepal and Bhutan, winter, although quite mild compared to the Russian winter, also is a factor to consider. In summer, tigers often are heavier than in winter. The fluctuations are not as outspoken as in Russia, but those who know say seasons have an effect on the health of tigers. This is without the monsoon, seasonal floods, forest fires, crop failures and mass migrations of prey animals. What I'm saying is weight can fluctuate in adult wild tigers. Also remember that male tigers in particular keep on growing for a long time. Although old males can be thin as a rail, they also topped the lists for length and weight in the recent past (50-100 years ago). 4b - Stomach content Not a few tigers shot by hunters a century ago or so were baited. Gorged male tigers shot by the Maharajah and his guests had about 60 pounds on non-gorged male tigers of similar size. Food has an effect. No question. But what about tigers incapacitated as a result of a disease or a fight? And what about young adults? Nearly every sample I saw had young adults. Young adult males are not much shorter than mature males, but in weight the effect of age can be considerable. In the end, when the sample is large enough, it just about evens out. The average of 53 males shot in northeastern India more than a century ago was 461 pounds. Without the gorged males, it was 453. The sample, however, also included young adults and adults well below par. My guess is that 460 would have been quite close to the mark. 4c - Conclusions What I'm saying is it would be best to just record a weight and add a few remarks on the tiger and the local conditions. When the sample is small, details about individuals count. When it's large, the effect of a few gorged or emaciated tigers is limited. In a healthy, large and well-protected region, individual variation in large wild mammals like tigers often is pronounced. Although size could be a result of many unknown factors, most agree that vegetation, climate and the size and availability of prey animals have a significant effect on the size of tigers. Tigers in northern India and Nepal are the largest wild big cats today (averages), but in the Sunderbans, tigers of the same subspecies could be smaller than in Sumatra. In the end, it is about the general picture. Posters can discuss stomach content, baiting and 11-inch tapes. RELIABILITY Guate is right in that records need to be reliable. A record without a source is a no-record. We also need info about the method used to measure or weight a tiger. Same for age and general condition. The more we know, the better. Info can help us understand situations that could seem a bit strange. EXCEPTIONS When we think of a wild adult male tiger, we see a clever warrior with a nice farm and a large family. Not quite true. Most farms are so large, that it takes 1-2 weeks to do a tour. In Russia, it might take a month. This means that transiensts have a decent chance to mate with one of the adult females in the territory of a mature male with a farm. Some transiensts might challenge the owner of the farm, but others will never be able to compete. Not all adults are large and healthy animals. Copters could have a point on the cattle killing male in Bhutan. Maybe he was smaller than others and, therefore, unable to compete. Maybe his size was a result of a crippling disease when he was young, but it could also have been a result of a fight in which he was severely wounded. Maybe he never fully recovered. Incapacitated males, however, can get to adulthood and old age in some conditions. It depends. Some decades ago, a seemingly healthy adult male Amur tiger was killed in fight with another male because he wasn't able to defend himself. When young, he suffered from a disease that had a lasting effect. He managed to get to adulthood, but a farm and a family were out of reach. In spite of that, he did quite well, moving all the time. Until that fateful day. Man-eaters and cattle tigers often have a story. |
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