There is a world somewhere between reality and fiction. Although ignored by many, it is very real and so are those living in it. This forum is about the natural world. Here, wild animals will be heard and respected. The forum offers a glimpse into an unknown world as well as a room with a view on the present and the future. Anyone able to speak on behalf of those living in the emerald forest and the deep blue sea is invited to join.
(01-31-2023, 03:44 AM)Pckts Wrote: Jhala is per comm.
There is no real verified weights or significant sample size. I can present you with a verified data base with a large amount of cats from all over India.
Brander, Cooch Behar, Hewett and any other of theses captures mentioned, you add them to the data base and you're going to have an average of around 200kg.
Once again, we're talking about verified and presented data. Captures, weights, measurements, stomach content, etc. all provided. For someone like Jhala or Khandal that's not the case. On top of that, like I stated, different parks will have larger or smaller specimens. Kanha will have the largest of C. Indian Tigers and Ranth. should be there as well but even so from both parks you have males that were less than 200kg and males that were over 280kg.
no jhala reserach paper mentioning range 200 to 260 is published not personal comment as people can see here https://www.researchgate.net/publication...ing_Tigers , i think brander or cooch beher were not scientist rather hunter , they may had hunted many sub-adults and some males out of prime , they hadnt shortlisted tigers in age group like smuts did , thats why avg is lower , khanadal and jhala are more reliable or knowledgeable than many people i think.
It literally says “unpublished data”
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This is per. Communication only. And like @Jerricson said this is based off a very small sample size.
In regards to reliability and knowledge, no one has more experience with Tigers than the likes of the names I’ve mentioned and no one has presented a more complete and large data base. Age groups and health is generally stated as well and almost all presented are adults. Where as food content is also generally mentioned but not so by Jhala.
Brander was hunter ,he shot tigers not darted them , his expertize over scientists or vets is debatable , his ability to determine age perfectly and health is also debatable . this journal "field guide for aging tigers" is uploaded by jhala and shahu in which he stated range as 200-260 , its not someone quoting him via personal communication . in panna tigers chart many 2.5 to 3.5 yr old sub-adults are 170-185kg which could have grown upto 210-230 kg easily , thats what i am saying , there could something like that in branders data .
Brander was much more than just a “trophy hunter.”
He is probably the foremost expert on Tigers and was responsible for their conservation throughout the majority of his life.
He measured and weighed more individuals in far more locations. Not just ones that were sick or died or translocated. He was hunting the largest and most dominate cats of the areas during his time. There is nothing to debate, in terms of wild interaction his experience is 2nd to none. It’s very easy to discredit someone because they were a Hunter but if you take the time to read their books and experiences you see their knowledge and experience shine through.
I highly suggest you start reading these old hunters books, there’s a reason why every modern big cat expert references these people.
bro i understand and respect your point of view but u dont understand my point of view , look at charger table and various modern data and measurements we have and rethink with open mind what i said , i respect brander but he didn't had a separate table for sub-adults , young adults and full grown adults like we have at panna , or done by smuts . brander didn't mentioned age of tigers he hunted . its not easy to differentiate between a 3.5 yr old male and 5 year old unless you are a scientist or know the profile of tiger from birth .
That table has numerous vague claims and flaws. It's far from valid compared to verified measurements mentioned from the people I named. People like Brander is why I was able to easily identify that Wagdoh was not weighed and have done so with numerous Tigers and Lions. The measurements and corresponding weights paint a much clearer picture.
With regards to age, Brander did mention ages as well as every other one mentioned. Its certainly easy enough to identify young from old to a trained eye, especially when talking about people with real first hand experience. At the end of the day, it's pretty clear, a good sized Male Tiger will be around 200kgs. They can absolutely get larger than than but they can absolutely be smaller than that. You can have bloated cats with stomach content, you can have cattle killers, you can have old or young that all affect that number but when talking about a healthy, fairly empty male Tiger, 200kgs is going to be a good average.
can u post branders detailed data here mentioning age and weight of tigers . i think avg weight of tigers in india is not similar thoughout , some parks have large no of big males like dudhwa ,may be kaziranga , terai west , also kanha in central india and some parks we can have avg as u suggest . yes 200-210kg tiger can be a avg tiger in good health , but also u have to include big males while calculating overrall avg which would add up extra 10-15 kg in overall avg .
"the classification of what is a mature animal has presented some difficulty, and would vary according to the views of the individual. Out of 39 tigress selected as mature, the smallest was 7'10'' and the largest 9'1''. The average is 8'4'' and the average weight was 343lb. The shortest tiger classified as mature was 8'9'', the longest was 10'3''
The average works out at 9'3'',
The weights vary between 353lbs -515lb., averaging 420lb for a gorged tiger. I weighed one other animal over 500lbs.
The largest animal I actually ever saw, however only taped 9'11'' between the uprights. "
pg 52-53
*he estimated this male to be 600lbs and his measurements are presented in this thread*
With regards to Dudhwa or the Terai in general, remember Hewett who has the largest data base of any Tiger hunter was all from the Terai, Corbett also was throughout the Terai arc.
Kaziranga is an unknown but it's where I would certainly wager the largest *heaviest* Tigers live.
I agree that depending on the park you will see some Tiger averages larger than others, also depending on if there is cattle lifting involved. But if the sample size gets to a significant number, no matter the park you'll most likely see that number get fairly close to 200kg give or take.
Brander doesn't but the other two do. Or at least the information was used to create one. Just to give you an idea of Branders experience, he has 80 adult Tigers captured compared to a total of 30 in that list most of which are young or sub adult.
Here is the thread where you can see the tables and information on methods used. https://wildfact.com/forum/topic-brander...nder#pid25
(01-31-2023, 01:17 PM)abhisingh7 Wrote: no jhala reserach paper mentioning range 200 to 260 is published not personal comment as people can see here https://www.researchgate.net/publication...ing_Tigers , i think brander or cooch beher were not scientist rather hunter , they may had hunted many sub-adults and some males out of prime , they hadnt shortlisted tigers in age group like smuts did , thats why avg is lower , khanadal and jhala are more reliable or knowledgeable than many people i think.
It literally says “unpublished data”
*This image is copyright of its original author
This is per. Communication only. And like @Jerricson said this is based off a very small sample size.
In regards to reliability and knowledge, no one has more experience with Tigers than the likes of the names I’ve mentioned and no one has presented a more complete and large data base. Age groups and health is generally stated as well and almost all presented are adults. Where as food content is also generally mentioned but not so by Jhala.
Brander was hunter ,he shot tigers not darted them , his expertize over scientists or vets is debatable , his ability to determine age perfectly and health is also debatable . this journal "field guide for aging tigers" is uploaded by jhala and shahu in which he stated range as 200-260 , its not someone quoting him via personal communication . in panna tigers chart many 2.5 to 3.5 yr old sub-adults are 170-185kg which could have grown upto 210-230 kg easily , thats what i am saying , there could something like that in branders data .
Brander was much more than just a “trophy hunter.”
He is probably the foremost expert on Tigers and was responsible for their conservation throughout the majority of his life.
He measured and weighed more individuals in far more locations. Not just ones that were sick or died or translocated. He was hunting the largest and most dominate cats of the areas during his time. There is nothing to debate, in terms of wild interaction his experience is 2nd to none. It’s very easy to discredit someone because they were a Hunter but if you take the time to read their books and experiences you see their knowledge and experience shine through.
I highly suggest you start reading these old hunters books, there’s a reason why every modern big cat expert references these people.
bro i understand and respect your point of view but u dont understand my point of view , look at charger table and various modern data and measurements we have and rethink with open mind what i said , i respect brander but he didn't had a separate table for sub-adults , young adults and full grown adults like we have at panna , or done by smuts . brander didn't mentioned age of tigers he hunted . its not easy to differentiate between a 3.5 yr old male and 5 year old unless you are a scientist or know the profile of tiger from birth .
That table has numerous vague claims and flaws. It's far from valid compared to verified measurements mentioned from the people I named. People like Brander is why I was able to easily identify that Wagdoh was not weighed and have done so with numerous Tigers and Lions. The measurements and corresponding weights paint a much clearer picture.
With regards to age, Brander did mention ages as well as every other one mentioned. Its certainly easy enough to identify young from old to a trained eye, especially when talking about people with real first hand experience. At the end of the day, it's pretty clear, a good sized Male Tiger will be around 200kgs. They can absolutely get larger than than but they can absolutely be smaller than that. You can have bloated cats with stomach content, you can have cattle killers, you can have old or young that all affect that number but when talking about a healthy, fairly empty male Tiger, 200kgs is going to be a good average.
can u post branders detailed data here mentioning age and weight of tigers . i think avg weight of tigers in india is not similar thoughout , some parks have large no of big males like dudhwa ,may be kaziranga , terai west , also kanha in central india and some parks we can have avg as u suggest . yes 200-210kg tiger can be a avg tiger in good health , but also u have to include big males while calculating overrall avg which would add up extra 10-15 kg in overall avg .
"the classification of what is a mature animal has presented some difficulty, and would vary according to the views of the individual. Out of 39 tigress selected as mature, the smallest was 7'10'' and the largest 9'1''. The average is 8'4'' and the average weight was 343lb. The shortest tiger classified as mature was 8'9'', the longest was 10'3''
The average works out at 9'3'',
The weights vary between 353lbs -515lb., averaging 420lb for a gorged tiger. I weighed one other animal over 500lbs.
The largest animal I actually ever saw, however only taped 9'11'' between the uprights. "
pg 52-53
*he estimated this male to be 600lbs and his measurements are presented in this thread*
With regards to Dudhwa or the Terai in general, remember Hewett who has the largest data base of any Tiger hunter was all from the Terai, Corbett also was throughout the Terai arc.
Kaziranga is an unknown but it's where I would certainly wager the largest *heaviest* Tigers live.
I agree that depending on the park you will see some Tiger averages larger than others, also depending on if there is cattle lifting involved. But if the sample size gets to a significant number, no matter the park you'll most likely see that number get fairly close to 200kg give or take.
Brander doesn't but the other two do. Or at least the information was used to create one. Just to give you an idea of Branders experience, he has 80 adult Tigers captured compared to a total of 30 in that list most of which are young or sub adult.
Here is the thread where you can see the tables and information on methods used. https://wildfact.com/forum/topic-brander...nder#pid25
yes , hewett has one male described as cub as it is still with his sister , so age around 2 , and 2 males are in bad condition , he hasnt described all 17 males are between age 5 to 10, there are still 7 males between 160 to 200kg out of which 2-3 males or even more can be aged around 3-4 who knows, we just dont know exactly , or there could be a big subadult too , nepal collaring data had biggest sub-adult as 216kg . but yes hewett data have slightly clairty but not enough , i hope u understood what i wanted to say .
(02-17-2023, 11:46 PM)Charger01 Wrote: I was able to confirm that Rayakassa weighed in at 240 kg empty in July 2019. He was 15 yrs old at that point. Will share other details soon.
yes rayakassa should be 260 kg about in prime , he is big frame tiger..
02-20-2023, 05:42 PM( This post was last modified: 02-20-2023, 05:43 PM by Jerricson )
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
Managed to get this immobilization record from a vet who's captured several males in Kanha . He told me this might be Bheema as he himself is not sure about the ID/name of this specimen but I highly doubt it considering Bheema was collared in November 2014 , not February 2014. He also managed to disclose that the largest male he's captured is 240 kg and will share its datasheet if he's able to dig it out from his old files. Meanwhile , he also shared me immobilization record of another male , which will be shared here later. Kindly note that measurement protocol is over the curves.
(02-17-2023, 11:46 PM)Charger01 Wrote: I was able to confirm that Rayakassa weighed in at 240 kg empty in July 2019. He was 15 yrs old at that point. Will share other details soon.
I have major doubts about this.
Rayakassa wasn't a big male to begin with *small frame* let alone at that age and empty, although I'm not sure he was 15 in 2019.
Managed to get this immobilization record from a vet who's captured several males in Kanha . He told me this might be Bheema as he himself is not sure about the ID/name of this specimen but I highly doubt it considering Bheema was collared in November 2014 , not February 2014. He also managed to disclose that the largest male he's captured is 240 kg and will share its datasheet if he's able to dig it out from his old files. Meanwhile , he also shared me immobilization record of another male , which will be shared here later. Kindly note that measurement protocol is over the curves.
Full Stomach but did vomit, so a good size male at that age. He also fits nicely with the 201.8 kg male from Cooch Behar.
Good work @Jerricson
This male was from Kanha I'm assuming?
I look forward to the other male and hopefully the 240kg male if possible.
This was the same male tiger who's video went viral about 2 weeks ago, popularly called as the Mohaan maneater.
He was again sighted about a week ago, with 2 much smaller tigers. Since he wasn't aggressive, they're definitely related to him.
At first, people thought that this male was one of the cubs of the Avni maneater tigress captured on 18th January. DNA analysis confirmed that she was involved in 3 human attacks.
Tigress can be seen with her cubs here at 0:13
But looking at the size and build of the male, he definitely wasn't a subadult. The vet said he was about 5 years old, in his prime. Meaning he was MOST LIKELY the mate of the maneater tigress caught a month ago. And since the tigress is missing, he was taking care of the cubs by himself. FD removed him, now lets see how it plays out for the cubs.
This was the same male tiger who's video went viral about 2 weeks ago, popularly called as the Mohaan maneater.
He was again sighted about a week ago, with 2 much smaller tigers. Since he wasn't aggressive, they're definitely related to him.
At first, people thought that this male was one of the cubs of the Avni maneater tigress captured on 18th January. DNA analysis confirmed that she was involved in 3 human attacks.
Tigress can be seen with her cubs here at 0:13
But looking at the size and build of the male, he definitely wasn't a subadult. The vet said he was about 5 years old, in his prime. Meaning he was MOST LIKELY the mate of the maneater tigress caught a month ago. And since the tigress is missing, he was taking care of the cubs by himself. FD removed him, now lets see how it plays out for the cubs.
(02-17-2023, 11:46 PM)Charger01 Wrote: I was able to confirm that Rayakassa weighed in at 240 kg empty in July 2019. He was 15 yrs old at that point. Will share other details soon.
I have major doubts about this.
Rayakassa wasn't a big male to begin with *small frame* let alone at that age and empty, although I'm not sure he was 15 in 2019.
It's coming directly from the vet. There's no reason to have any doubts. Same vet has provided other data before.
This was the same male tiger who's video went viral about 2 weeks ago, popularly called as the Mohaan maneater.
He was again sighted about a week ago, with 2 much smaller tigers. Since he wasn't aggressive, they're definitely related to him.
At first, people thought that this male was one of the cubs of the Avni maneater tigress captured on 18th January. DNA analysis confirmed that she was involved in 3 human attacks.
Tigress can be seen with her cubs here at 0:13
But looking at the size and build of the male, he definitely wasn't a subadult. The vet said he was about 5 years old, in his prime. Meaning he was MOST LIKELY the mate of the maneater tigress caught a month ago. And since the tigress is missing, he was taking care of the cubs by himself. FD removed him, now lets see how it plays out for the cubs.
(02-17-2023, 11:46 PM)Charger01 Wrote: I was able to confirm that Rayakassa weighed in at 240 kg empty in July 2019. He was 15 yrs old at that point. Will share other details soon.
I have major doubts about this.
Rayakassa wasn't a big male to begin with *small frame* let alone at that age and empty, although I'm not sure he was 15 in 2019.
It's coming directly from the vet. There's no reason to have any doubts. Same vet has provided other data before.
And Rayakassa wasn't small in any sense.
From what Vet? And during what capture and for what exactly?
There's always reasons to have doubts when information is withheld just like we've seen with numerous other claims that turned out to not be the case.
Ryakassa was certainly a smaller framed Tiger.
He had good bulk but not the large dimensions.
A little story on his size for you.
From the guides in Pench, Ryakassa was similar size to BMW and Handsome and smaller than Tarzan. We had two groups who saw BMW from a few feet away then saw the Sangam Male in Kanha *male who I saw* two days later and said Sangam completely outsized him. Sangam was probably around 230-250kg in his prime, I'd estimate.
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This was the same male tiger who's video went viral about 2 weeks ago, popularly called as the Mohaan maneater.
He was again sighted about a week ago, with 2 much smaller tigers. Since he wasn't aggressive, they're definitely related to him.
At first, people thought that this male was one of the cubs of the Avni maneater tigress captured on 18th January. DNA analysis confirmed that she was involved in 3 human attacks.
Tigress can be seen with her cubs here at 0:13
But looking at the size and build of the male, he definitely wasn't a subadult. The vet said he was about 5 years old, in his prime. Meaning he was MOST LIKELY the mate of the maneater tigress caught a month ago. And since the tigress is missing, he was taking care of the cubs by himself. FD removed him, now lets see how it plays out for the cubs.
Where is the alleged weight from?
I hate when they're so vague. We've seen this many times where they give one word weight answers with no elaboration that turns out to be estimates. Not saying that is or isn't the case but if you can, I'd try to get more information. Like dimensions, where the weight was taken, body condition, etc. Easier said than done, I understand.
This was the same male tiger who's video went viral about 2 weeks ago, popularly called as the Mohaan maneater.
He was again sighted about a week ago, with 2 much smaller tigers. Since he wasn't aggressive, they're definitely related to him.
At first, people thought that this male was one of the cubs of the Avni maneater tigress captured on 18th January. DNA analysis confirmed that she was involved in 3 human attacks.
Tigress can be seen with her cubs here at 0:13
But looking at the size and build of the male, he definitely wasn't a subadult. The vet said he was about 5 years old, in his prime. Meaning he was MOST LIKELY the mate of the maneater tigress caught a month ago. And since the tigress is missing, he was taking care of the cubs by himself. FD removed him, now lets see how it plays out for the cubs.
Where is the alleged weight from?
bro , rayakassa is very large in frame he must be in category of kingfisher of kanha .long time ago i had asked a photograher who had filmed various tigers . his son lmark is also very large .
Modern weights and measurements on wild tigers
