There is a world somewhere between reality and fiction. Although ignored by many, it is very real and so are those living in it. This forum is about the natural world. Here, wild animals will be heard and respected. The forum offers a glimpse into an unknown world as well as a room with a view on the present and the future. Anyone able to speak on behalf of those living in the emerald forest and the deep blue sea is invited to join.
So after a long research i found the guy who got the information about Dinokeng. The source is this Video.
Quote:Hello, the reserve has done a medical examination for Dinokeng in June 2017, the Data is as follows:
Chest: 142cm；
Length: 221cm；
Weight: 265kg (300+ kg full)；
The data came from the email of the veterinarian in the reserveI have its data test form used French language, because it is a picture, I can't post it here；hope Be Satisfied with my answer，thanks
We have already the pictures posted by woshinya.
As expexted he was weighed when he was examined. Because as i know Welgevonden do not usually weigh their lions (except those treated in a clinic or station).
(12-08-2022, 03:30 AM)ZigZak Wrote: Dinokeng Male Lion
So after a long research i found the guy who got the information about Dinokeng. The source is this Video.
Quote:Hello, the reserve has done a medical examination for Dinokeng in June 2017, the Data is as follows:
Chest: 142cm；
Length: 221cm；
Weight: 265kg (300+ kg full)；
The data came from the email of the veterinarian in the reserveI have its data test form used French language, because it is a picture, I can't post it here；hope Be Satisfied with my answer，thanks
We have already the pictures posted by woshinya.
As expexted he was weighed when he was examined. Because as i know Welgevonden do not usually weigh their lions (except those treated in a clinic or station).
I think that need to evidence to confirm those information. Because the lion fan said that he would post those information in fourm 10 days ago,but he didn't.
(12-08-2022, 03:30 AM)ZigZak Wrote: Dinokeng Male Lion
So after a long research i found the guy who got the information about Dinokeng. The source is this Video.
Quote:Hello, the reserve has done a medical examination for Dinokeng in June 2017, the Data is as follows:
Chest: 142cm；
Length: 221cm；
Weight: 265kg (300+ kg full)；
The data came from the email of the veterinarian in the reserveI have its data test form used French language, because it is a picture, I can't post it here；hope Be Satisfied with my answer，thanks
We have already the pictures posted by woshinya.
As expexted he was weighed when he was examined. Because as i know Welgevonden do not usually weigh their lions (except those treated in a clinic or station).
I think that need to evidence to confirm those information. Because the lion fan said that he would post those information in fourm 10 days ago,but he didn't.
This private letter from another worker from the private reserve. So I think the mysterious lion fan should post the evidence. Otherwise we can't know whether that be a roumor or no.
(12-08-2022, 03:30 AM)ZigZak Wrote: Dinokeng Male Lion
So after a long research i found the guy who got the information about Dinokeng. The source is this Video.
Quote:Hello, the reserve has done a medical examination for Dinokeng in June 2017, the Data is as follows:
Chest: 142cm；
Length: 221cm；
Weight: 265kg (300+ kg full)；
The data came from the email of the veterinarian in the reserveI have its data test form used French language, because it is a picture, I can't post it here；hope Be Satisfied with my answer，thanks
We have already the pictures posted by woshinya.
As expexted he was weighed when he was examined. Because as i know Welgevonden do not usually weigh their lions (except those treated in a clinic or station).
12-08-2022, 10:27 PM( This post was last modified: 12-10-2022, 10:55 PM by Charger01 )
What the YouTube channel owner says is that the weight was 300 kg+ but the vet estimated him 265 kg empty. He must have had a huge meal before being weighed. But I still have my doubts, after discussing with other people.
I got into contact with two officials from Welgevonden.
1. Conservation manager
[Removed]
2. Bio-monitoring manager
[Removed]
I would still like to talk to the actual vet before dismissing anything.
(12-08-2022, 10:27 PM)Charger01 Wrote: What the YouTube channel owner says is that the weight was 300 kg+ but the vet estimated him 265 kg empty. He must have had a huge meal before being weighed. But I still have my doubts, after discussing with other people.
I got into contact with two officials from Welgevonden.
1. Conservation manager
2. Bio-monitoring manager
I would still like to talk to the actual vet before dismissing anything.
These seem pretty clear but regardless this claim should be dismissed simply from what the program is about and how it operates. It's not a free ranging cat and obviously severely over fed.
As indicated they do not weigh their lions in the field.
Gap Africa Projects is usually "responsible" for the animals in the reserve (darting them) who work with vets from local clinics that treat them in the field and in their own clinics from what i have seen. So it is independent -> not the reserve. As implicated it was an examination and around the time when he was translocated, which is a complicated process. Maybe he was weighed in Kololo but that doesnt matter because of the reason i will mention now.
If the lion was not weighed recently/didnt go viral it is almost guarenteed workers are not even aware of that particular examination, let alone weight. As reported reserves are generally not well organized especially when it comes to such information (most have no idea especially when it is years ago) as they work with independent organisations that also usually work with vets from clinics and do not store data like those scientists in National Park with the prime example being Kruger National Park. This was the case with Kololo, Karongwe, Erindi, Madikwe, Entabeni and other Game Reserves. They do not even know the names of people that worked some years before them.
The workers that were contacted also didnt work at that time. So it is better to contact the vet that worked with Gap Africa Projects at that time as it says examination.
----
The Video was the original source (comments) and the guy doesnt seem to be a liar or dangerous guy in any way. He just posts animal videos and also shared the official documents too. He said to me "In total, two measurements were taken (2017 and 2020) .Since you can contact the staff, why don't you ask them to ask the vet who measured Dinokeng at that time?".
(12-08-2022, 10:27 PM)Charger01 Wrote: What the YouTube channel owner says is that the weight was 300 kg+ but the vet estimated him 265 kg empty. He must have had a huge meal before being weighed. But I still have my doubts, after discussing with other people.
I got into contact with two officials from Welgevonden.
1. Conservation manager
2. Bio-monitoring manager
I would still like to talk to the actual vet before dismissing anything.
These seem pretty clear but regardless this claim should be dismissed simply from what the program is about and how it operates. It's not a free ranging cat and obviously severely over fed.
Dinokeng doesnt look in any way fat to me and he is also doing his own thing in his reserve so i cant understand why he is not free-ranging. He just had recently a fight and levt injure. Or i understand something wrong.
(11-29-2022, 05:27 AM)Mapokser Wrote: @Potato the person I'm talking to claimed the Matshipiri were big himself, he said:
"I actually saw these two photographed on ig, I thought the male looked massive and it looks like he lives up to the hype. What a bulky boy!"
About other rangers opinion on Mapogos and Majins, true, but:
1. KNP Males' territory wasn't in Londolozi, they have seen Freddy and Limper in occasion only, same for Mapogos and the southern guide. In comparison Rob spent years with both Mapogos and Majins, plus KY's skull was smaller than the 5th Majingilane, so it's fair to say the opinion that Majins were bigger has much more weight to it, though I don't think they were much bigger.
@Pckts Yes the ranger thought a Mara lion he saw was bigger, so what? Apart from this male he thought it was the Matimbas.
The Charleston male was 3yo and the Sand River was a prime male, we have both these facts confirmed. Sand Rivers fought and took over the Southern Pride in 2012, two years before the fight with the Charleston boy who was born 3 years before. Sand Rivers even mated with the Charleston's aunt that was raising them.
Matimbas comparison with Bboys are important because you're claiming all lions within a region are of similar size.
And size is only one decisive factor when lions chase or fight each other so it'a irrelevant if Mapogos and Majingilanes fought Matimbas, you yourself said the difference between Ron and Caesar was huge, difference of 185 male to a 225kg, still they were ib the same coalition fighting for mating rights and Ron was reported to be the most dominant.
Anyway it's clear you won't change your mind about 225kg being the peak weight of a lion, we should just agree to desagree, it was my mistake getting involved in these discussions, tigers fans like yourself are probably debating such things with lion fans for more than a decade now and if both sides have never reached and agreement surely I'll not be the one to change your mind.
Anyway, have a good day, no bad feelings!
Quote: Yes the ranger thought a Mara lion he saw was bigger, so what? Apart from this male he thought it was the Matimbas.
I've seen E. African Lions and have always maintained they'd be larger than S. African free ranging males depending on the location. That being said, the largest male from E. Africa was a 272kg cattle lifter. Although I have little doubt they can reach higher weights.
Quote:The Charleston male was 3yo and the Sand River was a prime male, we have both these facts confirmed. Sand Rivers fought and took over the Southern Pride in 2012, two years before the fight with the Charleston boy who was born 3 years before. Sand Rivers even mated with the Charleston's aunt that was raising them.
Who has these facts confirme
Neither is full adult by the looks of it, both are most likely still coming into the fully mature stage of their lives and neither are in their prime. The SRM is the son of the Skukuza Male who was still alive in 2020 and this video was from 2014 so generally speaking, Wild Lions live to about 12 if lucky and take 3 years to sexually mature and generally longer than that to have cubs. So rough estimates would put him around 4 during this video but that's purely speculation on my part if all information mentioned is correct. Regardless, the size difference is minimal which was your claim.
Quote:Matimbas comparison with Bboys are important because you're claiming all lions within a region are of similar size.
They are, what is mentioned has little to do with that. Lions within a coalition can be small compared to the larger ones, but generally speaking they'll be in the 185kg-225kg range on empty stomachs. Hence *similar size*
Quote:Anyway it's clear you won't change your mind about 225kg being the peak weight of a lion,
I've never said this, but regardless we can move on from here.
As i know there is even a heavier lion in east africa but i forgot the weight. It was close to 290 kg (with minor fill) if i remember correctly. Also i was told the Mnt Kenya lion was not a cattle killer at the time when he was killed.. according to this video. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x4RDC-AlnUY
No confirmation on the other one and the Mt Kenyan Lion was a cattle killer. Noted on his skull.
"euthanized for stock raiding"
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
The lion i was talking about is this one and came from a FB user Cave Leo (he yet can not share the name because of privacy reasons). It was a lion from southern sergenti.
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
These are 2nd hand unfortunately but with a 146cm Chest girth and an alleged 228cm HBL *most definitely over the curves* I'm sure, his weight should be around 250kg+ so it's possible. But again you'd want the first hand correspondence as we've seen numerous 2nd accounts turn out to be invalid.
(12-08-2022, 10:27 PM)Charger01 Wrote: What the YouTube channel owner says is that the weight was 300 kg+ but the vet estimated him 265 kg empty. He must have had a huge meal before being weighed. But I still have my doubts, after discussing with other people.
I got into contact with two officials from Welgevonden.
1. Conservation manager
2. Bio-monitoring manager
I would still like to talk to the actual vet before dismissing anything.
These seem pretty clear but regardless this claim should be dismissed simply from what the program is about and how it operates. It's not a free ranging cat and obviously severely over fed.
Dinokeng doesnt look in any way fat to me and he is also doing his own thing in his reserve so i cant understand why he is not free-ranging. He just had recently a fight and levt injure. Or i understand something wrong.
He’s not free ranging because he’s from a private reserve that also utilizes a pay to play vet program. We’ve seen this at other private reserves too, these are considered “semi wild” cats. Baiting, capturing, selective breeding, prey restocking, artificial watering holes, etc. These cats don’t suffer from natural challenges, they don’t deal with true competition or prey migration. It’s not what a true wild cat deals with and thus should never be put in the same category.
In regards to his body condition, I can’t help you if you don’t think he’s overweight. I assume that probably has more to do with your personal preference than being practical about it. He is extremely overweight and infact if you look through almost all of GAP’s lion captures, they all look to be overweight which is a tendency for these programs since the cats are unnecessarily captured using baits.
(12-09-2022, 06:15 PM)ZigZak Wrote: As indicated they do not weigh their lions in the field.
Gap Africa Projects is usually "responsible" for the animals in the reserve (darting them) who work with vets from local clinics that treat them in the field and in their own clinics from what i have seen. So it is independent -> not the reserve. As implicated it was an examination and around the time when he was translocated, which is a complicated process. Maybe he was weighed in Kololo but that doesnt matter because of the reason i will mention now.
If the lion was not weighed recently/didnt go viral it is almost guarenteed workers are not even aware of that particular examination, let alone weight. As reported reserves are generally not well organized especially when it comes to such information (most have no idea especially when it is years ago) as they work with independent organisations that also usually work with vets from clinics and do not store data like those scientists in National Park with the prime example being Kruger National Park. This was the case with Kololo, Karongwe, Erindi, Madikwe, Entabeni and other Game Reserves. They do not even know the names of people that worked some years before them.
The workers that were contacted also didnt work at that time. So it is better to contact the vet that worked with Gap Africa Projects at that time as it says examination.
----
The Video was the original source (comments) and the guy doesnt seem to be a liar or dangerous guy in any way. He just posts animal videos and also shared the official documents too. He said to me "In total, two measurements were taken (2017 and 2020) .Since you can contact the staff, why don't you ask them to ask the vet who measured Dinokeng at that time?".
Maybe you didn't read the email, old friend, but I asked both of them for the contacts of the vet. They never replied to that.
Also, Carmen actually works with Gap Africa, while also being the lead of bio-monitoring team.
(12-09-2022, 06:15 PM)ZigZak Wrote: As indicated they do not weigh their lions in the field.
Gap Africa Projects is usually "responsible" for the animals in the reserve (darting them) who work with vets from local clinics that treat them in the field and in their own clinics from what i have seen. So it is independent -> not the reserve. As implicated it was an examination and around the time when he was translocated, which is a complicated process. Maybe he was weighed in Kololo but that doesnt matter because of the reason i will mention now.
If the lion was not weighed recently/didnt go viral it is almost guarenteed workers are not even aware of that particular examination, let alone weight. As reported reserves are generally not well organized especially when it comes to such information (most have no idea especially when it is years ago) as they work with independent organisations that also usually work with vets from clinics and do not store data like those scientists in National Park with the prime example being Kruger National Park. This was the case with Kololo, Karongwe, Erindi, Madikwe, Entabeni and other Game Reserves. They do not even know the names of people that worked some years before them.
The workers that were contacted also didnt work at that time. So it is better to contact the vet that worked with Gap Africa Projects at that time as it says examination.
----
The Video was the original source (comments) and the guy doesnt seem to be a liar or dangerous guy in any way. He just posts animal videos and also shared the official documents too. He said to me "In total, two measurements were taken (2017 and 2020) .Since you can contact the staff, why don't you ask them to ask the vet who measured Dinokeng at that time?".
Maybe you didn't read the email, old friend, but I asked both of them for the contacts of the vet. They never replied to that.
Also, Carmen actually works with Gap Africa, while also being the lead of bio-monitoring team.
GAP doesnt have vets. They call local vets (there arent actual vets working for Welgevonden or Gap) so they cant tell. Also she was barely working in Welgevonden when Dinokeng was examined, so they wont be helpful. I am not concerned in this case, just want to make sure i would like to write with the vet even though the document is there. There is not a good organization, storage in Game Reserves and there are not employees for each field like in national parks, which makes it so hard to get any data from reserves when it took place a long time ago.
(12-09-2022, 06:15 PM)ZigZak Wrote: As indicated they do not weigh their lions in the field.
Gap Africa Projects is usually "responsible" for the animals in the reserve (darting them) who work with vets from local clinics that treat them in the field and in their own clinics from what i have seen. So it is independent -> not the reserve. As implicated it was an examination and around the time when he was translocated, which is a complicated process. Maybe he was weighed in Kololo but that doesnt matter because of the reason i will mention now.
If the lion was not weighed recently/didnt go viral it is almost guarenteed workers are not even aware of that particular examination, let alone weight. As reported reserves are generally not well organized especially when it comes to such information (most have no idea especially when it is years ago) as they work with independent organisations that also usually work with vets from clinics and do not store data like those scientists in National Park with the prime example being Kruger National Park. This was the case with Kololo, Karongwe, Erindi, Madikwe, Entabeni and other Game Reserves. They do not even know the names of people that worked some years before them.
The workers that were contacted also didnt work at that time. So it is better to contact the vet that worked with Gap Africa Projects at that time as it says examination.
----
The Video was the original source (comments) and the guy doesnt seem to be a liar or dangerous guy in any way. He just posts animal videos and also shared the official documents too. He said to me "In total, two measurements were taken (2017 and 2020) .Since you can contact the staff, why don't you ask them to ask the vet who measured Dinokeng at that time?".
Maybe you didn't read the email, old friend, but I asked both of them for the contacts of the vet. They never replied to that.
Also, Carmen actually works with Gap Africa, while also being the lead of bio-monitoring team.
GAP doesnt have vets. They call local vets (there arent actual vets working for Welgevonden or Gap) so they cant tell. Also she was barely working in Welgevonden when Dinokeng was examined, so they wont be helpful. I am not concerned in this case, just want to make sure i would like to write with the vet even though the document is there. There is not a good organization, storage in Game Reserves and there are not employees for each field like in national parks, which makes it so hard to get any data from reserves when it took place a long time ago.
(12-09-2022, 06:15 PM)ZigZak Wrote: As indicated they do not weigh their lions in the field.
Gap Africa Projects is usually "responsible" for the animals in the reserve (darting them) who work with vets from local clinics that treat them in the field and in their own clinics from what i have seen. So it is independent -> not the reserve. As implicated it was an examination and around the time when he was translocated, which is a complicated process. Maybe he was weighed in Kololo but that doesnt matter because of the reason i will mention now.
If the lion was not weighed recently/didnt go viral it is almost guarenteed workers are not even aware of that particular examination, let alone weight. As reported reserves are generally not well organized especially when it comes to such information (most have no idea especially when it is years ago) as they work with independent organisations that also usually work with vets from clinics and do not store data like those scientists in National Park with the prime example being Kruger National Park. This was the case with Kololo, Karongwe, Erindi, Madikwe, Entabeni and other Game Reserves. They do not even know the names of people that worked some years before them.
The workers that were contacted also didnt work at that time. So it is better to contact the vet that worked with Gap Africa Projects at that time as it says examination.
----
The Video was the original source (comments) and the guy doesnt seem to be a liar or dangerous guy in any way. He just posts animal videos and also shared the official documents too. He said to me "In total, two measurements were taken (2017 and 2020) .Since you can contact the staff, why don't you ask them to ask the vet who measured Dinokeng at that time?".
Maybe you didn't read the email, old friend, but I asked both of them for the contacts of the vet. They never replied to that.
Also, Carmen actually works with Gap Africa, while also being the lead of bio-monitoring team.
GAP doesnt have vets. They call local vets (there arent actual vets working for Welgevonden or Gap) so they cant tell. Also she was barely working in Welgevonden when Dinokeng was examined, so they wont be helpful. I am not concerned in this case, just want to make sure i would like to write with the vet even though the document is there. There is not a good organization, storage in Game Reserves and there are not employees for each field like in national parks, which makes it so hard to get any data from reserves when it took place a long time ago.
Modern Weights and Measurements of Wild Lions
