There is a world somewhere between reality and fiction. Although ignored by many, it is very real and so are those living in it. This forum is about the natural world. Here, wild animals will be heard and respected. The forum offers a glimpse into an unknown world as well as a room with a view on the present and the future. Anyone able to speak on behalf of those living in the emerald forest and the deep blue sea is invited to join.
(11-29-2022, 09:38 PM)Mapokser Wrote: @ZigZak wasn't BDM's skull the third largest, not the largest?
As i know BDM Skull must be the largest. Because as i know the biggest lion skull ever had a score of 26.5 inches and that comes from Kirbies Lion. However BDM had a skull score of 28 inches following wards protocol. I honestly think he had a skull length of c.430 mm and a zogomatic width of c.280 mm.
Who is this "Kirbies lion" you talk about? I heard soemone saying BDM's skull is bigger than the skull of the 272kg Kenya lion, is this true? I wouldn't be surprised if BDM was even bigger, I think he's the most impressive cat I've ever seen.
The Kenyan Lions skull only scored 25.7'' and Kirby's largest Lion he estimated to be 500lbs while it was his 2nd largest Lion who's skull was the longest. Skull size isn't a direct correlation to body weight but obviously a large skull generally means a large cat.
The Kenyan Lion was measured by Yamguchi using correct protocol, who know's about the others mentioned.
Skull size has a very strong correlation with body size. Thus it should have also a very strong correlation with body mass if we assume all animals live under same circumstances, which is the reason why it had a good correlation with captive lions.
(11-29-2022, 09:38 PM)Mapokser Wrote: @ZigZak wasn't BDM's skull the third largest, not the largest?
As i know BDM Skull must be the largest. Because as i know the biggest lion skull ever had a score of 26.5 inches and that comes from Kirbies Lion. However BDM had a skull score of 28 inches following wards protocol. I honestly think he had a skull length of c.430 mm and a zogomatic width of c.280 mm.
His skull would rank 17th amongst S.A. Lions *general overexaggerating seen in private reserves* from SCI but again the process is different and even master measurers can do so in different ways.
I saw on Youtube someone say it was 16'' x 12'' which would be very unusual zygomatic width for that length in Lions, your measurements would be more plausible but still need verification.
Those measurements were estimates by lion fans because of the score of 28 inches that was reached by Black Dam.
(11-29-2022, 05:27 AM)Mapokser Wrote: @Potato the person I'm talking to claimed the Matshipiri were big himself, he said:
"I actually saw these two photographed on ig, I thought the male looked massive and it looks like he lives up to the hype. What a bulky boy!"
About other rangers opinion on Mapogos and Majins, true, but:
1. KNP Males' territory wasn't in Londolozi, they have seen Freddy and Limper in occasion only, same for Mapogos and the southern guide. In comparison Rob spent years with both Mapogos and Majins, plus KY's skull was smaller than the 5th Majingilane, so it's fair to say the opinion that Majins were bigger has much more weight to it, though I don't think they were much bigger.
@Pckts Yes the ranger thought a Mara lion he saw was bigger, so what? Apart from this male he thought it was the Matimbas.
The Charleston male was 3yo and the Sand River was a prime male, we have both these facts confirmed. Sand Rivers fought and took over the Southern Pride in 2012, two years before the fight with the Charleston boy who was born 3 years before. Sand Rivers even mated with the Charleston's aunt that was raising them.
Matimbas comparison with Bboys are important because you're claiming all lions within a region are of similar size.
And size is only one decisive factor when lions chase or fight each other so it'a irrelevant if Mapogos and Majingilanes fought Matimbas, you yourself said the difference between Ron and Caesar was huge, difference of 185 male to a 225kg, still they were ib the same coalition fighting for mating rights and Ron was reported to be the most dominant.
Anyway it's clear you won't change your mind about 225kg being the peak weight of a lion, we should just agree to desagree, it was my mistake getting involved in these discussions, tigers fans like yourself are probably debating such things with lion fans for more than a decade now and if both sides have never reached and agreement surely I'll not be the one to change your mind.
Anyway, have a good day, no bad feelings!
Quote: Yes the ranger thought a Mara lion he saw was bigger, so what? Apart from this male he thought it was the Matimbas.
I've seen E. African Lions and have always maintained they'd be larger than S. African free ranging males depending on the location. That being said, the largest male from E. Africa was a 272kg cattle lifter. Although I have little doubt they can reach higher weights.
Quote:The Charleston male was 3yo and the Sand River was a prime male, we have both these facts confirmed. Sand Rivers fought and took over the Southern Pride in 2012, two years before the fight with the Charleston boy who was born 3 years before. Sand Rivers even mated with the Charleston's aunt that was raising them.
Who has these facts confirme
Neither is full adult by the looks of it, both are most likely still coming into the fully mature stage of their lives and neither are in their prime. The SRM is the son of the Skukuza Male who was still alive in 2020 and this video was from 2014 so generally speaking, Wild Lions live to about 12 if lucky and take 3 years to sexually mature and generally longer than that to have cubs. So rough estimates would put him around 4 during this video but that's purely speculation on my part if all information mentioned is correct. Regardless, the size difference is minimal which was your claim.
Quote:Matimbas comparison with Bboys are important because you're claiming all lions within a region are of similar size.
They are, what is mentioned has little to do with that. Lions within a coalition can be small compared to the larger ones, but generally speaking they'll be in the 185kg-225kg range on empty stomachs. Hence *similar size*
Quote:Anyway it's clear you won't change your mind about 225kg being the peak weight of a lion,
I've never said this, but regardless we can move on from here.
As i know there is even a heavier lion in east africa but i forgot the weight. It was close to 290 kg (with minor fill) if i remember correctly. Also i was told the Mnt Kenya lion was not a cattle killer at the time when he was killed.. according to this video. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x4RDC-AlnUY
(11-29-2022, 05:27 AM)Mapokser Wrote: @Potato the person I'm talking to claimed the Matshipiri were big himself, he said:
"I actually saw these two photographed on ig, I thought the male looked massive and it looks like he lives up to the hype. What a bulky boy!"
About other rangers opinion on Mapogos and Majins, true, but:
1. KNP Males' territory wasn't in Londolozi, they have seen Freddy and Limper in occasion only, same for Mapogos and the southern guide. In comparison Rob spent years with both Mapogos and Majins, plus KY's skull was smaller than the 5th Majingilane, so it's fair to say the opinion that Majins were bigger has much more weight to it, though I don't think they were much bigger.
@Pckts Yes the ranger thought a Mara lion he saw was bigger, so what? Apart from this male he thought it was the Matimbas.
The Charleston male was 3yo and the Sand River was a prime male, we have both these facts confirmed. Sand Rivers fought and took over the Southern Pride in 2012, two years before the fight with the Charleston boy who was born 3 years before. Sand Rivers even mated with the Charleston's aunt that was raising them.
Matimbas comparison with Bboys are important because you're claiming all lions within a region are of similar size.
And size is only one decisive factor when lions chase or fight each other so it'a irrelevant if Mapogos and Majingilanes fought Matimbas, you yourself said the difference between Ron and Caesar was huge, difference of 185 male to a 225kg, still they were ib the same coalition fighting for mating rights and Ron was reported to be the most dominant.
Anyway it's clear you won't change your mind about 225kg being the peak weight of a lion, we should just agree to desagree, it was my mistake getting involved in these discussions, tigers fans like yourself are probably debating such things with lion fans for more than a decade now and if both sides have never reached and agreement surely I'll not be the one to change your mind.
Anyway, have a good day, no bad feelings!
Quote: Yes the ranger thought a Mara lion he saw was bigger, so what? Apart from this male he thought it was the Matimbas.
I've seen E. African Lions and have always maintained they'd be larger than S. African free ranging males depending on the location. That being said, the largest male from E. Africa was a 272kg cattle lifter. Although I have little doubt they can reach higher weights.
Quote:The Charleston male was 3yo and the Sand River was a prime male, we have both these facts confirmed. Sand Rivers fought and took over the Southern Pride in 2012, two years before the fight with the Charleston boy who was born 3 years before. Sand Rivers even mated with the Charleston's aunt that was raising them.
Who has these facts confirme
Neither is full adult by the looks of it, both are most likely still coming into the fully mature stage of their lives and neither are in their prime. The SRM is the son of the Skukuza Male who was still alive in 2020 and this video was from 2014 so generally speaking, Wild Lions live to about 12 if lucky and take 3 years to sexually mature and generally longer than that to have cubs. So rough estimates would put him around 4 during this video but that's purely speculation on my part if all information mentioned is correct. Regardless, the size difference is minimal which was your claim.
Quote:Matimbas comparison with Bboys are important because you're claiming all lions within a region are of similar size.
They are, what is mentioned has little to do with that. Lions within a coalition can be small compared to the larger ones, but generally speaking they'll be in the 185kg-225kg range on empty stomachs. Hence *similar size*
Quote:Anyway it's clear you won't change your mind about 225kg being the peak weight of a lion,
I've never said this, but regardless we can move on from here.
As i know there is even a heavier lion in east africa but i forgot the weight. It was close to 290 kg (with minor fill) if i remember correctly. Also i was told the Mnt Kenya lion was not a cattle killer at the time when he was killed.. according to this video. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x4RDC-AlnUY
No confirmation on the other one and the Mt Kenyan Lion was a cattle killer. Noted on his skull.
"euthanized for stock raiding"
(11-29-2022, 09:38 PM)Mapokser Wrote: @ZigZak wasn't BDM's skull the third largest, not the largest?
As i know BDM Skull must be the largest. Because as i know the biggest lion skull ever had a score of 26.5 inches and that comes from Kirbies Lion. However BDM had a skull score of 28 inches following wards protocol. I honestly think he had a skull length of c.430 mm and a zogomatic width of c.280 mm.
Who is this "Kirbies lion" you talk about? I heard soemone saying BDM's skull is bigger than the skull of the 272kg Kenya lion, is this true? I wouldn't be surprised if BDM was even bigger, I think he's the most impressive cat I've ever seen.
The Kenyan Lions skull only scored 25.7'' and Kirby's largest Lion he estimated to be 500lbs while it was his 2nd largest Lion who's skull was the longest. Skull size isn't a direct correlation to body weight but obviously a large skull generally means a large cat.
The Kenyan Lion was measured by Yamguchi using correct protocol, who know's about the others mentioned.
Skull size has a very strong correlation with body size. Thus it should have also a very strong correlation with body mass if we assume all animals live under same circumstances, which is the reason why it had a good correlation with captive lions.
This is subjective. Large Skulls generally equal Large Cats. Is this the case always?
No
Like I've provided, the largest skulls don't always belong to the largest cats. This is the case for any big cat.
Hamilton noted it
*This image is copyright of its original author
The same is shown in Almeida's book with Jaguars, with his 6 heaviest jaguars ranking no better than 10th on his skull scoring list out of 57 males.
It's never cut and dry, each cat may show a different positive correlation to body length, shoulder height, skull size, chest girth etc.
To paint the clearest picture you need as many of the factors mentioned as possible as well as the protocol used to obtain them.
(10-07-2022, 06:42 PM)Jerricson Wrote: @Pckts Will try
What's the story?the lion was Dinokeng. And it said that it was weight 265kg in 3 months this year. And it weight over 300kg by a scale in 2017, a lion fan get that from a lion doctor,I hope someone confirm this.
It's the lion
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
So a few a things about this lion
1st is that absolutely no truly wild lion will ever look like this. This male was from Welgevonden game reserve which is a private reserve and through the Gap Africa Project which is a pay to "play" veterinary program.
2nd with regards to the body length, there's absolutely no way this male was 221cm in HBL, maybe over the curves of this fat male would it be possible I guess but even then I doubt it.
Tbh he just looks full but we have no idea when he was captured. However considering he weighed 265 kg and 300 kg up in 2017 he must be in his prime. Scrolling through some pictures he never seemed to be "fat". This is the time (rough time) when Dinokeng weighed 300 up kg. He was most likely weighed when he was translocated to Welgevonden Game Reserve in 2017. If we guess he was full back then it will result in around 270-280+ kg i guess.
*This image is copyright of its original author
That isn't "full" that's overweight. You will never see a true wild lion that bloated. This is a private reserve and all their Lions captured are overweight, there's a big difference between free ranging wild lions and these small private reserve lions used for pay to play veterinary services.
(10-07-2022, 06:42 PM)Jerricson Wrote: @Pckts Will try
What's the story?the lion was Dinokeng. And it said that it was weight 265kg in 3 months this year. And it weight over 300kg by a scale in 2017, a lion fan get that from a lion doctor,I hope someone confirm this.
It's the lion
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
So a few a things about this lion
1st is that absolutely no truly wild lion will ever look like this. This male was from Welgevonden game reserve which is a private reserve and through the Gap Africa Project which is a pay to "play" veterinary program.
2nd with regards to the body length, there's absolutely no way this male was 221cm in HBL, maybe over the curves of this fat male would it be possible I guess but even then I doubt it.
Tbh he just looks full but we have no idea when he was captured. However considering he weighed 265 kg and 300 kg up in 2017 he must be in his prime. Scrolling through some pictures he never seemed to be "fat". This is the time (rough time) when Dinokeng weighed 300 up kg. He was most likely weighed when he was translocated to Welgevonden Game Reserve in 2017. If we guess he was full back then it will result in around 270-280+ kg i guess.
*This image is copyright of its original author
That isn't "full" that's overweight. You will never see a true wild lion that bloated. This is a private reserve and all their Lions captured are overweight, there's a big difference between free ranging wild lions and these small private reserve lions used for pay to play veterinary services.
Well he seems fairly normal (healthy) to me amd he has a bit of content in the picture i sent. His condition was changing throughout his life and to me he never looked really overweight. There are defintely male lions that seemed to carry more fat on them like th SS male from Kruger, which was said to be a giant by the guides i contacted.
(11-29-2022, 09:38 PM)Mapokser Wrote: @ZigZak wasn't BDM's skull the third largest, not the largest?
As i know BDM Skull must be the largest. Because as i know the biggest lion skull ever had a score of 26.5 inches and that comes from Kirbies Lion. However BDM had a skull score of 28 inches following wards protocol. I honestly think he had a skull length of c.430 mm and a zogomatic width of c.280 mm.
Who is this "Kirbies lion" you talk about? I heard soemone saying BDM's skull is bigger than the skull of the 272kg Kenya lion, is this true? I wouldn't be surprised if BDM was even bigger, I think he's the most impressive cat I've ever seen.
The Kenyan Lions skull only scored 25.7'' and Kirby's largest Lion he estimated to be 500lbs while it was his 2nd largest Lion who's skull was the longest. Skull size isn't a direct correlation to body weight but obviously a large skull generally means a large cat.
The Kenyan Lion was measured by Yamguchi using correct protocol, who know's about the others mentioned.
Skull size has a very strong correlation with body size. Thus it should have also a very strong correlation with body mass if we assume all animals live under same circumstances, which is the reason why it had a good correlation with captive lions.
This is subjective. Large Skulls generally equal Large Cats. Is this the case always?
No
Like I've provided, the largest skulls don't always belong to the largest cats. This is the case for any big cat.
Hamilton noted it
*This image is copyright of its original author
The same is shown in Almeida's book with Jaguars, with his 6 heaviest jaguars ranking no better than 10th on his skull scoring list out of 57 males.
It's never cut and dry, each cat may show a different positive correlation to body length, shoulder height, skull size, chest girth etc.
To paint the clearest picture you need as many of the factors mentioned as possible as well as the protocol used to obtain them.
I never said it is always the case. But the correlation is very strong. Head Length and Width had a very strong correlation with Body Length and also Body Weight.
(11-29-2022, 05:27 AM)Mapokser Wrote: @Potato the person I'm talking to claimed the Matshipiri were big himself, he said:
"I actually saw these two photographed on ig, I thought the male looked massive and it looks like he lives up to the hype. What a bulky boy!"
About other rangers opinion on Mapogos and Majins, true, but:
1. KNP Males' territory wasn't in Londolozi, they have seen Freddy and Limper in occasion only, same for Mapogos and the southern guide. In comparison Rob spent years with both Mapogos and Majins, plus KY's skull was smaller than the 5th Majingilane, so it's fair to say the opinion that Majins were bigger has much more weight to it, though I don't think they were much bigger.
@Pckts Yes the ranger thought a Mara lion he saw was bigger, so what? Apart from this male he thought it was the Matimbas.
The Charleston male was 3yo and the Sand River was a prime male, we have both these facts confirmed. Sand Rivers fought and took over the Southern Pride in 2012, two years before the fight with the Charleston boy who was born 3 years before. Sand Rivers even mated with the Charleston's aunt that was raising them.
Matimbas comparison with Bboys are important because you're claiming all lions within a region are of similar size.
And size is only one decisive factor when lions chase or fight each other so it'a irrelevant if Mapogos and Majingilanes fought Matimbas, you yourself said the difference between Ron and Caesar was huge, difference of 185 male to a 225kg, still they were ib the same coalition fighting for mating rights and Ron was reported to be the most dominant.
Anyway it's clear you won't change your mind about 225kg being the peak weight of a lion, we should just agree to desagree, it was my mistake getting involved in these discussions, tigers fans like yourself are probably debating such things with lion fans for more than a decade now and if both sides have never reached and agreement surely I'll not be the one to change your mind.
Anyway, have a good day, no bad feelings!
Quote: Yes the ranger thought a Mara lion he saw was bigger, so what? Apart from this male he thought it was the Matimbas.
I've seen E. African Lions and have always maintained they'd be larger than S. African free ranging males depending on the location. That being said, the largest male from E. Africa was a 272kg cattle lifter. Although I have little doubt they can reach higher weights.
Quote:The Charleston male was 3yo and the Sand River was a prime male, we have both these facts confirmed. Sand Rivers fought and took over the Southern Pride in 2012, two years before the fight with the Charleston boy who was born 3 years before. Sand Rivers even mated with the Charleston's aunt that was raising them.
Who has these facts confirme
Neither is full adult by the looks of it, both are most likely still coming into the fully mature stage of their lives and neither are in their prime. The SRM is the son of the Skukuza Male who was still alive in 2020 and this video was from 2014 so generally speaking, Wild Lions live to about 12 if lucky and take 3 years to sexually mature and generally longer than that to have cubs. So rough estimates would put him around 4 during this video but that's purely speculation on my part if all information mentioned is correct. Regardless, the size difference is minimal which was your claim.
Quote:Matimbas comparison with Bboys are important because you're claiming all lions within a region are of similar size.
They are, what is mentioned has little to do with that. Lions within a coalition can be small compared to the larger ones, but generally speaking they'll be in the 185kg-225kg range on empty stomachs. Hence *similar size*
Quote:Anyway it's clear you won't change your mind about 225kg being the peak weight of a lion,
I've never said this, but regardless we can move on from here.
As i know there is even a heavier lion in east africa but i forgot the weight. It was close to 290 kg (with minor fill) if i remember correctly. Also i was told the Mnt Kenya lion was not a cattle killer at the time when he was killed.. according to this video. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x4RDC-AlnUY
No confirmation on the other one and the Mt Kenyan Lion was a cattle killer. Noted on his skull.
"euthanized for stock raiding"
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
The lion i was talking about is this one and came from a FB user Cave Leo (he yet can not share the name because of privacy reasons). It was a lion from southern sergenti.
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
The following 1 user Likes ZigZak's post:1 user Likes ZigZak's post • Potato
(11-29-2022, 09:38 PM)Mapokser Wrote: @ZigZak wasn't BDM's skull the third largest, not the largest?
As i know BDM Skull must be the largest. Because as i know the biggest lion skull ever had a score of 26.5 inches and that comes from Kirbies Lion. However BDM had a skull score of 28 inches following wards protocol. I honestly think he had a skull length of c.430 mm and a zogomatic width of c.280 mm.
Who is this "Kirbies lion" you talk about? I heard soemone saying BDM's skull is bigger than the skull of the 272kg Kenya lion, is this true? I wouldn't be surprised if BDM was even bigger, I think he's the most impressive cat I've ever seen.
The Kenyan Lions skull only scored 25.7'' and Kirby's largest Lion he estimated to be 500lbs while it was his 2nd largest Lion who's skull was the longest. Skull size isn't a direct correlation to body weight but obviously a large skull generally means a large cat.
The Kenyan Lion was measured by Yamguchi using correct protocol, who know's about the others mentioned.
Skull size has a very strong correlation with body size. Thus it should have also a very strong correlation with body mass if we assume all animals live under same circumstances, which is the reason why it had a good correlation with captive lions.
This is subjective. Large Skulls generally equal Large Cats. Is this the case always?
No
Like I've provided, the largest skulls don't always belong to the largest cats. This is the case for any big cat.
Hamilton noted it
*This image is copyright of its original author
The same is shown in Almeida's book with Jaguars, with his 6 heaviest jaguars ranking no better than 10th on his skull scoring list out of 57 males.
It's never cut and dry, each cat may show a different positive correlation to body length, shoulder height, skull size, chest girth etc.
To paint the clearest picture you need as many of the factors mentioned as possible as well as the protocol used to obtain them.
I never said it is always the case. But the correlation is very strong. Head Length and Width had a very strong correlation with Body Length and also Body Weight.
You're talking about absolute minimal correlation differences. It'll always come down to a combination of each factor which is why it's necessary to have as much data as necessary before making assumptions.
(11-29-2022, 05:27 AM)Mapokser Wrote: @Potato the person I'm talking to claimed the Matshipiri were big himself, he said:
"I actually saw these two photographed on ig, I thought the male looked massive and it looks like he lives up to the hype. What a bulky boy!"
About other rangers opinion on Mapogos and Majins, true, but:
1. KNP Males' territory wasn't in Londolozi, they have seen Freddy and Limper in occasion only, same for Mapogos and the southern guide. In comparison Rob spent years with both Mapogos and Majins, plus KY's skull was smaller than the 5th Majingilane, so it's fair to say the opinion that Majins were bigger has much more weight to it, though I don't think they were much bigger.
@Pckts Yes the ranger thought a Mara lion he saw was bigger, so what? Apart from this male he thought it was the Matimbas.
The Charleston male was 3yo and the Sand River was a prime male, we have both these facts confirmed. Sand Rivers fought and took over the Southern Pride in 2012, two years before the fight with the Charleston boy who was born 3 years before. Sand Rivers even mated with the Charleston's aunt that was raising them.
Matimbas comparison with Bboys are important because you're claiming all lions within a region are of similar size.
And size is only one decisive factor when lions chase or fight each other so it'a irrelevant if Mapogos and Majingilanes fought Matimbas, you yourself said the difference between Ron and Caesar was huge, difference of 185 male to a 225kg, still they were ib the same coalition fighting for mating rights and Ron was reported to be the most dominant.
Anyway it's clear you won't change your mind about 225kg being the peak weight of a lion, we should just agree to desagree, it was my mistake getting involved in these discussions, tigers fans like yourself are probably debating such things with lion fans for more than a decade now and if both sides have never reached and agreement surely I'll not be the one to change your mind.
Anyway, have a good day, no bad feelings!
Quote: Yes the ranger thought a Mara lion he saw was bigger, so what? Apart from this male he thought it was the Matimbas.
I've seen E. African Lions and have always maintained they'd be larger than S. African free ranging males depending on the location. That being said, the largest male from E. Africa was a 272kg cattle lifter. Although I have little doubt they can reach higher weights.
Quote:The Charleston male was 3yo and the Sand River was a prime male, we have both these facts confirmed. Sand Rivers fought and took over the Southern Pride in 2012, two years before the fight with the Charleston boy who was born 3 years before. Sand Rivers even mated with the Charleston's aunt that was raising them.
Who has these facts confirme
Neither is full adult by the looks of it, both are most likely still coming into the fully mature stage of their lives and neither are in their prime. The SRM is the son of the Skukuza Male who was still alive in 2020 and this video was from 2014 so generally speaking, Wild Lions live to about 12 if lucky and take 3 years to sexually mature and generally longer than that to have cubs. So rough estimates would put him around 4 during this video but that's purely speculation on my part if all information mentioned is correct. Regardless, the size difference is minimal which was your claim.
Quote:Matimbas comparison with Bboys are important because you're claiming all lions within a region are of similar size.
They are, what is mentioned has little to do with that. Lions within a coalition can be small compared to the larger ones, but generally speaking they'll be in the 185kg-225kg range on empty stomachs. Hence *similar size*
Quote:Anyway it's clear you won't change your mind about 225kg being the peak weight of a lion,
I've never said this, but regardless we can move on from here.
As i know there is even a heavier lion in east africa but i forgot the weight. It was close to 290 kg (with minor fill) if i remember correctly. Also i was told the Mnt Kenya lion was not a cattle killer at the time when he was killed.. according to this video. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x4RDC-AlnUY
No confirmation on the other one and the Mt Kenyan Lion was a cattle killer. Noted on his skull.
"euthanized for stock raiding"
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
The lion i was talking about is this one and came from a FB user Cave Leo (he yet can not share the name because of privacy reasons). It was a lion from southern sergenti.
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
These are 2nd hand unfortunately but with a 146cm Chest girth and an alleged 228cm HBL *most definitely over the curves* I'm sure, his weight should be around 250kg+ so it's possible. But again you'd want the first hand correspondence as we've seen numerous 2nd accounts turn out to be invalid.
(10-07-2022, 06:42 PM)Jerricson Wrote: @Pckts Will try
What's the story?the lion was Dinokeng. And it said that it was weight 265kg in 3 months this year. And it weight over 300kg by a scale in 2017, a lion fan get that from a lion doctor,I hope someone confirm this.
It's the lion
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
So a few a things about this lion
1st is that absolutely no truly wild lion will ever look like this. This male was from Welgevonden game reserve which is a private reserve and through the Gap Africa Project which is a pay to "play" veterinary program.
2nd with regards to the body length, there's absolutely no way this male was 221cm in HBL, maybe over the curves of this fat male would it be possible I guess but even then I doubt it.
Tbh he just looks full but we have no idea when he was captured. However considering he weighed 265 kg and 300 kg up in 2017 he must be in his prime. Scrolling through some pictures he never seemed to be "fat". This is the time (rough time) when Dinokeng weighed 300 up kg. He was most likely weighed when he was translocated to Welgevonden Game Reserve in 2017. If we guess he was full back then it will result in around 270-280+ kg i guess.
*This image is copyright of its original author
That isn't "full" that's overweight. You will never see a true wild lion that bloated. This is a private reserve and all their Lions captured are overweight, there's a big difference between free ranging wild lions and these small private reserve lions used for pay to play veterinary services.
Well he seems fairly normal (healthy) to me amd he has a bit of content in the picture i sent. His condition was changing throughout his life and to me he never looked really overweight. There are defintely male lions that seemed to carry more fat on them like th SS male from Kruger, which was said to be a giant by the guides i contacted.
*This image is copyright of its original author
Dinokeng throughout his life.
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
None of those matter, the actual images shown with that Male getting his collar removed show a completely overweight male. At that time in his life I'd wager he was either living in a boma or being translocated. Regardless you can guarantee at that time he was receiving human intervention. Next is the "alleged" measurements, it certainly be of interest to know who took them since that program is a pay to play veterinary student program. They can easily have been taken by a tourist, I'd also be curious as to when/if he was weighed as there looks to be no weighing during his captures. But there could have been other times, regardless more info is actual needed and he shouldn't be held to the same standard as a truly free ranging lion.
(11-29-2022, 09:38 PM)Mapokser Wrote: @ZigZak wasn't BDM's skull the third largest, not the largest?
As i know BDM Skull must be the largest. Because as i know the biggest lion skull ever had a score of 26.5 inches and that comes from Kirbies Lion. However BDM had a skull score of 28 inches following wards protocol. I honestly think he had a skull length of c.430 mm and a zogomatic width of c.280 mm.
Who is this "Kirbies lion" you talk about? I heard soemone saying BDM's skull is bigger than the skull of the 272kg Kenya lion, is this true? I wouldn't be surprised if BDM was even bigger, I think he's the most impressive cat I've ever seen.
The Kenyan Lions skull only scored 25.7'' and Kirby's largest Lion he estimated to be 500lbs while it was his 2nd largest Lion who's skull was the longest. Skull size isn't a direct correlation to body weight but obviously a large skull generally means a large cat.
The Kenyan Lion was measured by Yamguchi using correct protocol, who know's about the others mentioned.
Skull size has a very strong correlation with body size. Thus it should have also a very strong correlation with body mass if we assume all animals live under same circumstances, which is the reason why it had a good correlation with captive lions.
This is subjective. Large Skulls generally equal Large Cats. Is this the case always?
No
Like I've provided, the largest skulls don't always belong to the largest cats. This is the case for any big cat.
Hamilton noted it
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The same is shown in Almeida's book with Jaguars, with his 6 heaviest jaguars ranking no better than 10th on his skull scoring list out of 57 males.
It's never cut and dry, each cat may show a different positive correlation to body length, shoulder height, skull size, chest girth etc.
To paint the clearest picture you need as many of the factors mentioned as possible as well as the protocol used to obtain them.
I never said it is always the case. But the correlation is very strong. Head Length and Width had a very strong correlation with Body Length and also Body Weight.
You're talking about absolute minimal correlation differences. It'll always come down to a combination of each factor which is why it's necessary to have as much data as necessary before making assumptions.
It is more of a chain reaction and thus common sense to me. The correlation between body size and weight is easy to understand (self explanatory). Same goes for Skull and Body size. Correlation with weights are tricky as you know.
(11-29-2022, 05:27 AM)Mapokser Wrote: @Potato the person I'm talking to claimed the Matshipiri were big himself, he said:
"I actually saw these two photographed on ig, I thought the male looked massive and it looks like he lives up to the hype. What a bulky boy!"
About other rangers opinion on Mapogos and Majins, true, but:
1. KNP Males' territory wasn't in Londolozi, they have seen Freddy and Limper in occasion only, same for Mapogos and the southern guide. In comparison Rob spent years with both Mapogos and Majins, plus KY's skull was smaller than the 5th Majingilane, so it's fair to say the opinion that Majins were bigger has much more weight to it, though I don't think they were much bigger.
@Pckts Yes the ranger thought a Mara lion he saw was bigger, so what? Apart from this male he thought it was the Matimbas.
The Charleston male was 3yo and the Sand River was a prime male, we have both these facts confirmed. Sand Rivers fought and took over the Southern Pride in 2012, two years before the fight with the Charleston boy who was born 3 years before. Sand Rivers even mated with the Charleston's aunt that was raising them.
Matimbas comparison with Bboys are important because you're claiming all lions within a region are of similar size.
And size is only one decisive factor when lions chase or fight each other so it'a irrelevant if Mapogos and Majingilanes fought Matimbas, you yourself said the difference between Ron and Caesar was huge, difference of 185 male to a 225kg, still they were ib the same coalition fighting for mating rights and Ron was reported to be the most dominant.
Anyway it's clear you won't change your mind about 225kg being the peak weight of a lion, we should just agree to desagree, it was my mistake getting involved in these discussions, tigers fans like yourself are probably debating such things with lion fans for more than a decade now and if both sides have never reached and agreement surely I'll not be the one to change your mind.
Anyway, have a good day, no bad feelings!
Quote: Yes the ranger thought a Mara lion he saw was bigger, so what? Apart from this male he thought it was the Matimbas.
I've seen E. African Lions and have always maintained they'd be larger than S. African free ranging males depending on the location. That being said, the largest male from E. Africa was a 272kg cattle lifter. Although I have little doubt they can reach higher weights.
Quote:The Charleston male was 3yo and the Sand River was a prime male, we have both these facts confirmed. Sand Rivers fought and took over the Southern Pride in 2012, two years before the fight with the Charleston boy who was born 3 years before. Sand Rivers even mated with the Charleston's aunt that was raising them.
Who has these facts confirme
Neither is full adult by the looks of it, both are most likely still coming into the fully mature stage of their lives and neither are in their prime. The SRM is the son of the Skukuza Male who was still alive in 2020 and this video was from 2014 so generally speaking, Wild Lions live to about 12 if lucky and take 3 years to sexually mature and generally longer than that to have cubs. So rough estimates would put him around 4 during this video but that's purely speculation on my part if all information mentioned is correct. Regardless, the size difference is minimal which was your claim.
Quote:Matimbas comparison with Bboys are important because you're claiming all lions within a region are of similar size.
They are, what is mentioned has little to do with that. Lions within a coalition can be small compared to the larger ones, but generally speaking they'll be in the 185kg-225kg range on empty stomachs. Hence *similar size*
Quote:Anyway it's clear you won't change your mind about 225kg being the peak weight of a lion,
I've never said this, but regardless we can move on from here.
As i know there is even a heavier lion in east africa but i forgot the weight. It was close to 290 kg (with minor fill) if i remember correctly. Also i was told the Mnt Kenya lion was not a cattle killer at the time when he was killed.. according to this video. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x4RDC-AlnUY
No confirmation on the other one and the Mt Kenyan Lion was a cattle killer. Noted on his skull.
"euthanized for stock raiding"
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The lion i was talking about is this one and came from a FB user Cave Leo (he yet can not share the name because of privacy reasons). It was a lion from southern sergenti.
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*This image is copyright of its original author
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*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
These are 2nd hand unfortunately but with a 146cm Chest girth and an alleged 228cm HBL *most definitely over the curves* I'm sure, his weight should be around 250kg+ so it's possible. But again you'd want the first hand correspondence as we've seen numerous 2nd accounts turn out to be invalid.
I think the vet confirmed everything as he also works with the other vet and has the files/documents.
Modern Weights and Measurements of Wild Lions
