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08-26-2022, 09:44 PM( This post was last modified: 08-26-2022, 11:25 PM by AndresVida )
(08-24-2022, 06:45 PM)Pckts Wrote: Rob literally stated he can’t remember what he had for breakfast let alone a lion weighed 25 years ago. And he “thinks” Jon Dixon was there, again doesn’t remember nor do you have any other confirmation on that.
And the other person wasn’t there and states a second hand source. Again, these aren’t first hand sources who participated, these are second hand sources trying to remember from someone who may have been involved.
The person Willie Coetzee is a scientist and professional in his field and is basically using the nature conservation official (scientist) he knows personally as the source. A source from scientists that backed it up each other. Personal communication are common sources in scientific documents.
As the source is from scientists that have communicated each other. So there is no discussion about the source from Willie Coetzee and the Nature Conservation Official.
What basically ends everything is that Rob The Ranger was himself there 25 years ago and remembers that he was weighed, darted on a bait. The person John Dixon also confirmed that he was indeed there. We have the numbers but at least his memories are everything but contradictory to the data given by scientists beside the crucial confirmation of the capture and weighing.
Yes we have some measurements of free-ranging lions suggesting lions are capable of reaching these figures with 272 kg with an empty belly (I estimate to be it like 292-302 kg full) being the prime example.
As forwarded to me the lion was indeed not a cattle killer but was killed for attacking a tourist camp. Dr Richard Kock clearly stated this in the past and also nowadays.
Also I would like to know the reason how actual measurements from scientists and completely independent ranger and guides (they didn't even work there) are "game reserve" claims.
(08-24-2022, 07:15 PM)Pckts Wrote: Just to add to my last comment…
What exactly changed from the time Smutts and Hamilton were capturing their lions to now?
Lions of that huge size are not common. Some weights are obtained by asking countless reserves, people and that with many people. Such weights do not fall from the sky.
There have been quite a few weights from reserves that were proven. But we also obtained large lions from the kruger nationalpark recently with 5 adult males ranging ranging from 230-240 kg (heaviest 240 kg) and not eating since 2 days. Including two males of 225 kg.
There are people who have much more deep knowledge to determine how well a population is doing.
One of the factors why lions from east africa are commonly 150-160 kg or basically in a bad condition is because of the high competition, mortality and prey poor season. But there are countless other factors.
The paper "Age assignment of African lions" from Funston may be a bit helpful to get an idea.
As much as I'm aware tbf , the lion ximpoko from Timbavati is fully confirmed by the scientists working there. If anyone have doubts one may read the pages 1-5 from the thread "largest living lions".
The Mount Kenya lion was killed for an attack on humans and there was no record or information of him killing cattles as stated by Richard Kock. Also I would like to know how a lion in east africa can prey on cattles for months (that's just a thing of impossibility).
*This image is copyright of its original author
Regarding the lion's physical condition it was stated to be in excellent condition without being fat. Kocks recent emails confirmed it again that the lion was everything but fat. Also the BCS score was made visually and has ko reliability but even according to the paper 4-6 is ideal for a lion.
Regarding the claims about reserves it doesn't change anything about the lions. As reserves or some nationalparks are not as large as Kruger or Etosha, natural water resources and good genepool needs to be artificially mimiced. That case with Phinda if it is true is either a result of bad managing or the fact they were not able to sell the lions. No reserves in this world would like to euthanize lions for fun.
In case of Tiger Canyon it is criticised a lot by experts and you can not compare it to game reserves. Game reserves do play an significant role for conservation as seen in various studies.
What @Pantherinae said is true. Wildlife Manager /scientists have confirmed that basically all lions come from Etosha and Kalahari. Kruger is not included because of the TB disease back then.
Reagesing the raw body size I totally agree with you pckts
Quote:Yes I mentioned myself, that he had given him a 6. yet he also described the lion as being nothing like a captive animal, just a very big lion. Wild east African Lions especially just past their prime can have extra fat. I have seen that on several males
Gorged isn't fat, as per your picture. And not being "captive overweight" means little. The cat was obviously overweight as stated by his standard limb size but extreme weight as well as his bad habit of livestock raiding.
Quote:On private reserves: no one said they are pure wild lions, I said the lions there live a natural life, they are not spoon fed, they hunt and kill for themselves, and will fight over territory and compeate with other carnivores. Ofc when humans change and move animals to keep the gene pool clean it’s not "perfect wild Lions" or a natural balance lol no one has said that. but the animals who get’s taken into these "reserves" are wild animals, and they continue to provide for themselves while being at these reserves. So their weights wouldn’t change.
Tiger canyon is not the same, he interracts with his tigers, I have seen a drugged blessbuck charge a tiger, one tiger biting in the throat of an already tiger stiff as a board, so that carcass was likely placed out into another tigers territory for mr Varty to get a cool shot to sell, the animals are hybrid tigers from ZOO’s
What's a "natural life?"
Having humans artificially provide water and bait as well as restocking food and lack of competition or offering "pay to research" programs or trophy hunts is far from "natural."
A natural life means Water holes come and go, prey animals migrate, competition occurs, animals get injured and die and so on. No one ever said they were "spoon fed" but they certainly aren't true free ranging wild lions. On top of everything else, most of these private reserves rely on trophy hunts, providing customers "guaranteed" catches is most important.
In regards to Tiger canyons, they also have naturally hunted Warthog, Blesbock, Wildebeest and Ostrich, does that mean no w all of a sudden it should be considered Wild?
Quote:The person Willie Coetzee is a scientist and professional in his field and is basically using the nature conservation official (scientist) he knows personally as the source. A source from scientists that backed it up each other. Personal communication are common sources in scientific documents. These are not hunting records that being said, which should make a difference ig.
Again, this isn't a first hand account, this is hearsay. "I know someone who was there" means little.
On top of that, again this is a private reserve not the true wild.
They have ulterior motives and offer a very different experience in comparison.
Quote:What basically ends everything is that Rob The Ranger was himself there 25 years ago and remembers that he was weighed, darted on a bait. The person John Dixon also confirmed that he was indeed there. We have the numbers but at least his memories are everything but contradictory to the data given by scientists beside the crucial confirmation of the capture and weighing.
And again, he specifically mentions it being so long ago he doesn't remember much, just that it was close to 300kg but full with 50kg of meat. He also specifically casts doubt on the 309kg claim. So you're grasping at straws when claiming that weight as verified when someone who was actually there specifically mentions his doubts. So you have a baited cat, living in a semi wild private reserve with no one available who actually participated in the capture and alleged weighing.
Quote:Yes we have some measurements of free-ranging lions suggesting lions are capable of reaching these figures with 272 kg with an empty belly (I estimate to be it like 292-302 kg full) being the prime example.
What measurements would those be?
2nd hand sources of extreme weight claims from private reserves aren't measurements of free ranging and the only "free ranging lion" that has a 272kg claim was a notorious livestock killer, overweight and apparently didn't possess large limbs bones.
Quote:Lions of that huge size are not common. Some weights are obtained by asking countless reserves, people and that with many people. Such weights do not fall from the sky.
There have been quite a few weights from reserves that were proven. But we also obtained large lions from the kruger nationalpark recently with 5 adult males ranging ranging from 230-240 kg (heaviest 240 kg) and not eating since 2 days. Including two males of 225 kg.
No reserves possess near the amount of lions that Kruger did or does, it's not close. Smutts and Hamilton had access to lion country in it's prime with the highest prey availability we've seen. Literally there were so many lions that they culled them.
In regards to your recent kruger lion claims, again I'd need to see who's saying it since no name is provided and again it's noted to be over 30 years ago. But a Lion weighing 240kg doesn't mean it's larger than Smutts 225kg largest Lion. Remember, his lion was confirmed empty so that's easily in his range. But again I'd need real details to make any conclusions. Like a real name and capture method, measurements etc. Considering any study quoted for Lion capture within the past 20 years have all credited smutts capture technique, you can be sure baits were also used. And if this person was working in kruger over 30 years ago, almost no doubt they would have been working with Smutts or at worst certainly following his guidelines.
Quote:There are people who have much more deep knowledge to determine how well a population is doing.
One of the factors why lions from east africa are commonly 150-160 kg or basically in a bad condition is because of the high competition, mortality and prey poor season. But there are countless other factors.
There is no one alive today with more Knowledge on the Subject than Smutts or Hamilton with regards to Free Ranging Lions in S. Africa.
East Africa has by far the largest lion population and ungulate population any where on earth. It also has the best protections afforded anywhere in africa. This " because of the high competition, mortality and prey poor season" is called the Wild. That's the major difference between free ranging wild territory and "semi wild" private reserves.
Quote:The paper "Age assignment of African lions" from Funston may be a bit helpful to get an idea.
I've been to the Serengeti, I'm well aware of the dynamic in E. Africa.
Quote:the lion ximpoko from Timbavati is fully confirmed by the scientists working there.
No, he's fully confirmed by Almero who wasn't actually apart of the capture. Again we're talking about private hunting reserve notoriously famous for selectively breeding and selling White Lions. Per @dr panthera "Like in other privately owned reserves the lions of Timbavati can not be considered 100% wild or free-ranging...they can be considered semi-captive in the sense that human intervention is more intense than in a national park setting, the owners will 'select' more impressive specimens and breed them, protect them, medicate them and even feed them. The tourist/hunters/photographers want to see big lions, scientists want to see, study, and protect ALL lions. I was intrigued with the hunting records from Timbavati as the trophies there are significantly larger than the lions of Limpopo-Kruger, but it is easy to explain once you factor human intervention." He was a Lion researcher who studied lion prey preference and used to post here a while back. This was posted in the Timbavati lion thread
Quote:The Mount Kenya lion was killed for an attack on humans and there was no record or information of him killing cattles as stated by Richard Kock. Also I would like to know how a lion in east africa can prey on cattles for months (that's just a thing of impossibility).
Again, this is noted by numerous people and literally written on the actual skull of the Lion itself. Just to help you understand E. Africa a bit. In Tanzania for instance you have 4 main Tribes, the Masai *most famous* that you see walk their Cattle and Goats throughout the Serengeti and Ngorongoro Parks freely. It's their lively hood, this was agreed upon by the E. African Gov't to allow them to keep their land undisturbed. It's the last "natural stronghold* for them and is a trip when you are driving around and see a 5 year old boy walking a giant herd of Goat through the heart of Lion country. Cattle is regularly preyed upon there and if a Lion becomes savy, it will cause immense damage to their livestock.
Quote:Yes I mentioned myself, that he had given him a 6. yet he also described the lion as being nothing like a captive animal, just a very big lion. Wild east African Lions especially just past their prime can have extra fat. I have seen that on several males
Gorged isn't fat, as per your picture. And not being "captive overweight" means little. The cat was obviously overweight as stated by his standard limb size but extreme weight as well as his bad habit of livestock raiding.
Quote:On private reserves: no one said they are pure wild lions, I said the lions there live a natural life, they are not spoon fed, they hunt and kill for themselves, and will fight over territory and compeate with other carnivores. Ofc when humans change and move animals to keep the gene pool clean it’s not "perfect wild Lions" or a natural balance lol no one has said that. but the animals who get’s taken into these "reserves" are wild animals, and they continue to provide for themselves while being at these reserves. So their weights wouldn’t change.
Tiger canyon is not the same, he interracts with his tigers, I have seen a drugged blessbuck charge a tiger, one tiger biting in the throat of an already tiger stiff as a board, so that carcass was likely placed out into another tigers territory for mr Varty to get a cool shot to sell, the animals are hybrid tigers from ZOO’s
What's a "natural life?"
Having humans artificially provide water and bait as well as restocking food and lack of competition or offering "pay to research" programs or trophy hunts is far from "natural."
A natural life means Water holes come and go, prey animals migrate, competition occurs, animals get injured and die and so on. No one ever said they were "spoon fed" but they certainly aren't true free ranging wild lions. On top of everything else, most of these private reserves rely on trophy hunts, providing customers "guaranteed" catches is most important.
In regards to Tiger canyons, they also have naturally hunted Warthog, Blesbock, Wildebeest and Ostrich, does that mean no w all of a sudden it should be considered Wild?
Quote:The person Willie Coetzee is a scientist and professional in his field and is basically using the nature conservation official (scientist) he knows personally as the source. A source from scientists that backed it up each other. Personal communication are common sources in scientific documents. These are not hunting records that being said, which should make a difference ig.
Again, this isn't a first hand account, this is hearsay. "I know someone who was there" means little.
On top of that, again this is a private reserve not the true wild.
They have ulterior motives and offer a very different experience in comparison.
Quote:What basically ends everything is that Rob The Ranger was himself there 25 years ago and remembers that he was weighed, darted on a bait. The person John Dixon also confirmed that he was indeed there. We have the numbers but at least his memories are everything but contradictory to the data given by scientists beside the crucial confirmation of the capture and weighing.
And again, he specifically mentions it being so long ago he doesn't remember much, just that it was close to 300kg but full with 50kg of meat. He also specifically casts doubt on the 309kg claim. So you're grasping at straws when claiming that weight as verified when someone who was actually there specifically mentions his doubts. So you have a baited cat, living in a semi wild private reserve with no one available who actually participated in the capture and alleged weighing.
Quote:Yes we have some measurements of free-ranging lions suggesting lions are capable of reaching these figures with 272 kg with an empty belly (I estimate to be it like 292-302 kg full) being the prime example.
What measurements would those be?
2nd hand sources of extreme weight claims from private reserves aren't measurements of free ranging and the only "free ranging lion" that has a 272kg claim was a notorious livestock killer, overweight and apparently didn't possess large limbs bones.
Quote:Lions of that huge size are not common. Some weights are obtained by asking countless reserves, people and that with many people. Such weights do not fall from the sky.
There have been quite a few weights from reserves that were proven. But we also obtained large lions from the kruger nationalpark recently with 5 adult males ranging ranging from 230-240 kg (heaviest 240 kg) and not eating since 2 days. Including two males of 225 kg.
No reserves possess near the amount of lions that Kruger did or does, it's not close. Smutts and Hamilton had access to lion country in it's prime with the highest prey availability we've seen. Literally there were so many lions that they culled them.
In regards to your recent kruger lion claims, again I'd need to see who's saying it since no name is provided and again it's noted to be over 30 years ago. But a Lion weighing 240kg doesn't mean it's larger than Smutts 225kg largest Lion. Remember, his lion was confirmed empty so that's easily in his range. But again I'd need real details to make any conclusions. Like a real name and capture method, measurements etc. Considering any study quoted for Lion capture within the past 20 years have all credited smutts capture technique, you can be sure baits were also used. And if this person was working in kruger over 30 years ago, almost no doubt they would have been working with Smutts or at worst certainly following his guidelines.
Quote:There are people who have much more deep knowledge to determine how well a population is doing.
One of the factors why lions from east africa are commonly 150-160 kg or basically in a bad condition is because of the high competition, mortality and prey poor season. But there are countless other factors.
There is no one alive today with more Knowledge on the Subject than Smutts or Hamilton with regards to Free Ranging Lions in S. Africa.
East Africa has by far the largest lion population and ungulate population any where on earth. It also has the best protections afforded anywhere in africa. This " because of the high competition, mortality and prey poor season" is called the Wild. That's the major difference between free ranging wild territory and "semi wild" private reserves.
Quote:The paper "Age assignment of African lions" from Funston may be a bit helpful to get an idea.
I've been to the Serengeti, I'm well aware of the dynamic in E. Africa.
Quote:the lion ximpoko from Timbavati is fully confirmed by the scientists working there.
No, he's fully confirmed by Almero who wasn't actually apart of the capture. Again we're talking about private hunting reserve notoriously famous for selectively breeding and selling White Lions. Per @dr panthera "Like in other privately owned reserves the lions of Timbavati can not be considered 100% wild or free-ranging...they can be considered semi-captive in the sense that human intervention is more intense than in a national park setting, the owners will 'select' more impressive specimens and breed them, protect them, medicate them and even feed them. The tourist/hunters/photographers want to see big lions, scientists want to see, study, and protect ALL lions. I was intrigued with the hunting records from Timbavati as the trophies there are significantly larger than the lions of Limpopo-Kruger, but it is easy to explain once you factor human intervention." He was a Lion researcher who studied lion prey preference and used to post here a while back. This was posted in the Timbavati lion thread
Quote:The Mount Kenya lion was killed for an attack on humans and there was no record or information of him killing cattles as stated by Richard Kock. Also I would like to know how a lion in east africa can prey on cattles for months (that's just a thing of impossibility).
Again, this is noted by numerous people and literally written on the actual skull of the Lion itself. Just to help you understand E. Africa a bit. In Tanzania for instance you have 4 main Tribes, the Masai *most famous* that you see walk their Cattle and Goats throughout the Serengeti and Ngorongoro Parks freely. It's their lively hood, this was agreed upon by the E. African Gov't to allow them to keep their land undisturbed. It's the last "natural stronghold* for them and is a trip when you are driving around and see a 5 year old boy walking a giant herd of Goat through the heart of Lion country. Cattle is regularly preyed upon there and if a Lion becomes savy, it will cause immense damage to their livestock.
I’m talking about the fat on that perticular lion. Despite being full its obvious that there was a fat % similar to animals rated as a. So wild animals can be fat too. The hunter who saw this animal alive, said he never forgot this lion and that he was just a very big animal.
Again how many reserves have artificial water holes today? There are fake water holes in Kruger, Kagalagadi, Etosha, Tadoba, Kanha. Almost everywhere. What do you think this research program is? That they just dart animals for fun? That is not the case, although I agree with you that vet programs for wild animals are stupid, but again this is being done in several of the national parks as well.
The reserves mentioned by me has rival prides fighting and these lions are not being baited…as far as I know none of the reserves I mentioned have zero trophy hunting, Timbavati has hunting, but the area you hunt is fenced in, so not the wild animal you would see on a Safari trip, animals that can migrere in and out of Kruger.
Quote:Yes I mentioned myself, that he had given him a 6. yet he also described the lion as being nothing like a captive animal, just a very big lion. Wild east African Lions especially just past their prime can have extra fat. I have seen that on several males
Gorged isn't fat, as per your picture. And not being "captive overweight" means little. The cat was obviously overweight as stated by his standard limb size but extreme weight as well as his bad habit of livestock raiding.
Quote:On private reserves: no one said they are pure wild lions, I said the lions there live a natural life, they are not spoon fed, they hunt and kill for themselves, and will fight over territory and compeate with other carnivores. Ofc when humans change and move animals to keep the gene pool clean it’s not "perfect wild Lions" or a natural balance lol no one has said that. but the animals who get’s taken into these "reserves" are wild animals, and they continue to provide for themselves while being at these reserves. So their weights wouldn’t change.
Tiger canyon is not the same, he interracts with his tigers, I have seen a drugged blessbuck charge a tiger, one tiger biting in the throat of an already tiger stiff as a board, so that carcass was likely placed out into another tigers territory for mr Varty to get a cool shot to sell, the animals are hybrid tigers from ZOO’s
What's a "natural life?"
Having humans artificially provide water and bait as well as restocking food and lack of competition or offering "pay to research" programs or trophy hunts is far from "natural."
A natural life means Water holes come and go, prey animals migrate, competition occurs, animals get injured and die and so on. No one ever said they were "spoon fed" but they certainly aren't true free ranging wild lions. On top of everything else, most of these private reserves rely on trophy hunts, providing customers "guaranteed" catches is most important.
In regards to Tiger canyons, they also have naturally hunted Warthog, Blesbock, Wildebeest and Ostrich, does that mean no w all of a sudden it should be considered Wild?
Quote:The person Willie Coetzee is a scientist and professional in his field and is basically using the nature conservation official (scientist) he knows personally as the source. A source from scientists that backed it up each other. Personal communication are common sources in scientific documents. These are not hunting records that being said, which should make a difference ig.
Again, this isn't a first hand account, this is hearsay. "I know someone who was there" means little.
On top of that, again this is a private reserve not the true wild.
They have ulterior motives and offer a very different experience in comparison.
Quote:What basically ends everything is that Rob The Ranger was himself there 25 years ago and remembers that he was weighed, darted on a bait. The person John Dixon also confirmed that he was indeed there. We have the numbers but at least his memories are everything but contradictory to the data given by scientists beside the crucial confirmation of the capture and weighing.
And again, he specifically mentions it being so long ago he doesn't remember much, just that it was close to 300kg but full with 50kg of meat. He also specifically casts doubt on the 309kg claim. So you're grasping at straws when claiming that weight as verified when someone who was actually there specifically mentions his doubts. So you have a baited cat, living in a semi wild private reserve with no one available who actually participated in the capture and alleged weighing.
Quote:Yes we have some measurements of free-ranging lions suggesting lions are capable of reaching these figures with 272 kg with an empty belly (I estimate to be it like 292-302 kg full) being the prime example.
What measurements would those be?
2nd hand sources of extreme weight claims from private reserves aren't measurements of free ranging and the only "free ranging lion" that has a 272kg claim was a notorious livestock killer, overweight and apparently didn't possess large limbs bones.
Quote:Lions of that huge size are not common. Some weights are obtained by asking countless reserves, people and that with many people. Such weights do not fall from the sky.
There have been quite a few weights from reserves that were proven. But we also obtained large lions from the kruger nationalpark recently with 5 adult males ranging ranging from 230-240 kg (heaviest 240 kg) and not eating since 2 days. Including two males of 225 kg.
No reserves possess near the amount of lions that Kruger did or does, it's not close. Smutts and Hamilton had access to lion country in it's prime with the highest prey availability we've seen. Literally there were so many lions that they culled them.
In regards to your recent kruger lion claims, again I'd need to see who's saying it since no name is provided and again it's noted to be over 30 years ago. But a Lion weighing 240kg doesn't mean it's larger than Smutts 225kg largest Lion. Remember, his lion was confirmed empty so that's easily in his range. But again I'd need real details to make any conclusions. Like a real name and capture method, measurements etc. Considering any study quoted for Lion capture within the past 20 years have all credited smutts capture technique, you can be sure baits were also used. And if this person was working in kruger over 30 years ago, almost no doubt they would have been working with Smutts or at worst certainly following his guidelines.
Quote:There are people who have much more deep knowledge to determine how well a population is doing.
One of the factors why lions from east africa are commonly 150-160 kg or basically in a bad condition is because of the high competition, mortality and prey poor season. But there are countless other factors.
There is no one alive today with more Knowledge on the Subject than Smutts or Hamilton with regards to Free Ranging Lions in S. Africa.
East Africa has by far the largest lion population and ungulate population any where on earth. It also has the best protections afforded anywhere in africa. This " because of the high competition, mortality and prey poor season" is called the Wild. That's the major difference between free ranging wild territory and "semi wild" private reserves.
Quote:The paper "Age assignment of African lions" from Funston may be a bit helpful to get an idea.
I've been to the Serengeti, I'm well aware of the dynamic in E. Africa.
Quote:the lion ximpoko from Timbavati is fully confirmed by the scientists working there.
No, he's fully confirmed by Almero who wasn't actually apart of the capture. Again we're talking about private hunting reserve notoriously famous for selectively breeding and selling White Lions. Per @dr panthera "Like in other privately owned reserves the lions of Timbavati can not be considered 100% wild or free-ranging...they can be considered semi-captive in the sense that human intervention is more intense than in a national park setting, the owners will 'select' more impressive specimens and breed them, protect them, medicate them and even feed them. The tourist/hunters/photographers want to see big lions, scientists want to see, study, and protect ALL lions. I was intrigued with the hunting records from Timbavati as the trophies there are significantly larger than the lions of Limpopo-Kruger, but it is easy to explain once you factor human intervention." He was a Lion researcher who studied lion prey preference and used to post here a while back. This was posted in the Timbavati lion thread
Quote:The Mount Kenya lion was killed for an attack on humans and there was no record or information of him killing cattles as stated by Richard Kock. Also I would like to know how a lion in east africa can prey on cattles for months (that's just a thing of impossibility).
Again, this is noted by numerous people and literally written on the actual skull of the Lion itself. Just to help you understand E. Africa a bit. In Tanzania for instance you have 4 main Tribes, the Masai *most famous* that you see walk their Cattle and Goats throughout the Serengeti and Ngorongoro Parks freely. It's their lively hood, this was agreed upon by the E. African Gov't to allow them to keep their land undisturbed. It's the last "natural stronghold* for them and is a trip when you are driving around and see a 5 year old boy walking a giant herd of Goat through the heart of Lion country. Cattle is regularly preyed upon there and if a Lion becomes savy, it will cause immense damage to their livestock.
I’m talking about the fat on that perticular lion. Despite being full its obvious that there was a fat % similar to animals rated as a. So wild animals can be fat too. The hunter who saw this animal alive, said he never forgot this lion and that he was just a very big animal.
Again how many reserves have artificial water holes today? There are fake water holes in Kruger, Kagalagadi, Etosha, Tadoba, Kanha. Almost everywhere. What do you think this research program is? That they just dart animals for fun? That is not the case, although I agree with you that vet programs for wild animals are stupid, but again this is being done in several of the national parks as well.
The reserves mentioned by me has rival prides fighting and these lions are not being baited…as far as I know none of the reserves I mentioned have zero trophy hunting, Timbavati has hunting, but the area you hunt is fenced in, so not the wild animal you would see on a Safari trip, animals that can migrere in and out of Kruger.
Quote:Again how many reserves have artificial water holes today? There are fake water holes in Kruger, Kagalagadi, Etosha, Tadoba, Kanha. Almost everywhere. What do you think this research program is? That they just dart animals for fun? That is not the case, although I agree with you that vet programs for wild animals are stupid, but again this is being done in several of the national parks as well.
The reserves mentioned by me has rival prides fighting and these lions are not being baited…as far as I know none of the reserves I mentioned have zero trophy hunting, Timbavati has hunting, but the area you hunt is fenced in, so not the wild animal you would see on a Safari trip, animals that can migrere in and out of Kruger.
The artificial pools are far more prevalent in Pench than Kanha for comparison and certainly serve no purpose other than making sightings easier. If they didn't exist the Tigers wouldn't go to Turiya (in pench) and just make there way to another part of a Pench zone. The same for Tadoba which has a massive lake year round. But I don't agree with them either, they serve no purpose outside of making it easier to snap shots. But they to are very different from damning a river to provide year round water inside fenced reserves that wouldn't have it other wise. All animals must congregate there, this too creates a smorgasbord for any predator.
And I'm not sure you know what research programs I'm talking about. They absolutely dart for fun, it's a joke. GVI had a big controversy because one of the Males *Zero* who was captured and monitored by numerous volunteers was then trophy hunted and everyone was pissed about it.
And like Karongwe for instance, Phinda also offers this farce of an "experience." https://www.bateleurclub.com/phinda-volu...X9GaHFedHA
Look under "veterinary work"
"Fast population growth is a result of (1) high recruitment, and (2) artificial changes/influences such as the absence of infanticide, diseases, and intraspecific conflict, all of which contribute to limiting population growth (Packer et al. 1988). In addition, small private reserves reliant on tourism as their primary source of revenue typically have high prey species stocking rates, thus ensuring a constant food source for lions, resulting in no starvation taking place (Vartan 2001)."
Lastly during trophy hunts, captures and photo ops, they absolutely offer baits. On top of prey restocking and population control tactics. And Timbavati offers hunts throughout and although Kruger may not they still have their cats get baited to other reserves where they are hunted. Just like what we saw with Cecil. Kruger may be trying to do it right but none are completely without flaws, especially the 40 or so much smaller ones that are trying any tactic in their arsenal to get tourists dollars.
At the end of the day, S. African Private reserves are not the true Wild, they don't suffer the same natural influxes that contribute to wild animals that you see in free ranging cats. On top of that, almost all of them are trophy hunting centers that need to have the "biggest" and "easiest" Targets to attract hunters. Does that apply for every single one, of course not but lets not make excuses for these smaller private trophy hunting reserves claiming to have record Lions. We both know that's not the case and if they were true free ranging with honest data they'd be the exact same size as the hundreds caught by Smutts and Hamilton. The same goes for any big cat, none get bigger with less land and prey, that's not how the wild works.
I thought according to Guate's chart 250kg empty is indeed the largest wild lion ever recorded, surpassing the Smuts 225kg empty?
Is that 250kg number no longer valid and 225kg is the true number?
Also it's been a while since I've seen Smuts' data on the wild lions, but did he apply a similar method/technique when weighing other predators like hyenas or leopards?
I thought according to Guate's chart 250kg empty is indeed the largest wild lion ever recorded, surpassing the Smuts 225kg empty?
Is that 250kg number no longer valid and 225kg is the true number?
Also it's been a while since I've seen Smuts' data on the wild lions, but did he apply a similar method/technique when weighing other predators like hyenas or leopards?
The largest Free Ranging Lion is the Kenyan Male of 272kg that was a cattle killer. Not sure if he's actually included but is mentioned. The 225kg Empty Lion from Smuts who has the largest S. African Database by far.
Smuts used his techniques for all captures when possible.
I thought according to Guate's chart 250kg empty is indeed the largest wild lion ever recorded, surpassing the Smuts 225kg empty?
Is that 250kg number no longer valid and 225kg is the true number?
Also it's been a while since I've seen Smuts' data on the wild lions, but did he apply a similar method/technique when weighing other predators like hyenas or leopards?
The largest Free Ranging Lion is the Kenyan Male of 272kg that was a cattle killer. Not sure if he's actually included but is mentioned. The 225kg Empty Lion from Smuts who has the largest S. African Database by far.
Smuts used his techniques for all captures when possible.
that claimed 272kg kenyan lion was from mount kenya national park (130-140) km away from masai mara , what this east african breed ?
I thought according to Guate's chart 250kg empty is indeed the largest wild lion ever recorded, surpassing the Smuts 225kg empty?
Is that 250kg number no longer valid and 225kg is the true number?
Also it's been a while since I've seen Smuts' data on the wild lions, but did he apply a similar method/technique when weighing other predators like hyenas or leopards?
The largest Free Ranging Lion is the Kenyan Male of 272kg that was a cattle killer. Not sure if he's actually included but is mentioned. The 225kg Empty Lion from Smuts who has the largest S. African Database by far.
Smuts used his techniques for all captures when possible.
that claimed 272kg kenyan lion was from mount kenya national park (130-140) km away from masai mara , what this east african breed ?
No different than Any other E. African breed. Kenya and Tanzania border one another, the subspecies are the same, while habitat differences can contribute to slight variations.
10-08-2022, 12:34 AM( This post was last modified: 10-08-2022, 12:35 AM by Jerricson )
Some information on lions from Phinda GR , which I managed to get from the vet couple of weeks back.
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
@GuateGojira I think thats a record for the largest female cat captured but I'm not sure what would be the actual weight of that specimen , when accounting for the feed and measurement errors(implants) involved.
Modern Weights and Measurements of Wild Lions
