There is a world somewhere between reality and fiction. Although ignored by many, it is very real and so are those living in it. This forum is about the natural world. Here, wild animals will be heard and respected. The forum offers a glimpse into an unknown world as well as a room with a view on the present and the future. Anyone able to speak on behalf of those living in the emerald forest and the deep blue sea is invited to join.
Male lions share food with no one, in fact they usurp food from the pride without hunting for it at times. Prides don’t eat until a male allows it.
Not to mention the abundance of food available to them. You’re talking about millions of ungulates at their disposal. There is no place on earth that comes close to the prey biomass you see in Africa.
Average digestible energy intakes (DEI) of individual cats are plotted against body mass in Figure 3. A large difference in energy intakes of lions and tigers was evident. For example, the DEI of large male lions was only about half that of the similarly sized male Bengal X Siberian tigers. The natural logarithm (In) of digestible energy intake was plotted against In body mass to examine the scaling of energy intake to body mass (Figure 4). All cats did not appear to follow the same scaling relationship. For example, lions and young clouded leopards appeared to fall on the predicted line that represents extrapolation of the maintenance energy requirements of domestic cats, but cheetahs, Sumatran tigers and Bengal X Siberian tigers had considerably higher energy intakes.
This study is talking about the digestive efficiency of captive cats, rather than the food intake of wild cats:
Quote:Twenty five felids, housed at the National Zoological Park, Washington, DC and at the Conservation and Research Center, National Zoological Park, Front Royal, Virginia were used in the trials. The cats represented five species/subspecies: clouded leopard, Neofelis nebulosa
(n = 9) , cheetah, Acinonyx jubatus n = 6) , Sumatran tiger , Panthera tigris sumatrae (n = 4), lion, Panthera leo (n = 4) and Bengal/Siberian tiger , Panthera tigris tigris/Panthera tigris altaica (n = 2) .
Most cats had access to both indoor and outdoor enclosures during each 4-6 day digestion trial, with the exception of cheetahs. Cheetahs were maintained in outdoor enclosures but had access to heated shelters during inclement weather . Clouded leopards had unrestricted access to indoor and outdoor enclosures. Their building is cool in summer and heated to maintain at least 21 degrees C in the winter. Lions and tigers were maintained in both indoor (heated and cooled) and outdoor enclosures during digestion trials and spent approximately 50% of their days in each area. Ambient daily temperatures were recorded during each of the four digestion trials.
Cats were individually fed raw, horsemeat-based diets that have been shown to maintain body weight. Seven clouded leopards were fed Nebraska Brand Frozen Feline Diet (Animal Spectrum, North Platte, Nebraska, 69103) and two were fed Nebraska Brand Frozen Canine Diet (Animal Spectrum, North Platte Nebraska 69103). All other cats received Canine Diet. Food samples were taken during each trial and frozen for later analysis. Cats were weighed before and after each digestion trial. Chromic oxide was homogeneously mixed into the ration at a rate of 0.5% of dry matter. Fecal samples were collected daily and frozen. Lions, tigers and cheetahs were fed separately but otherwise were housed in pairs or groups. Feces voided by individual lions, tigers and cheetahs were distinguished by the presence of 15-20 grains (cracked corn, safflower, and millet) that had been mixed into the food before feeding. Upon thawing, feces from each cat were pooled for each trial, and grains and contaminating hair were manually removed. Food and feces were oven dried at 55 degrees C and ground in a Wiley mill to pass a 2 mm mesh screen. Subsamples of food and feces were assayed for crude protein by macro-Kjeldahl (TN X 6.25), fat by Soxhlet ether extraction, energy by Adiabatic bomb calorimetry and chromium by atomic absorption spectroscopy after perchloric and nitric acid digestion.
I found this bit interesting though:
Quote:We speculate that different species of cats have developed diverse metabolic strategies, and that these strategies involve considerable differences in maintenance energy requirements (Emmons, 1991). Some, such as clouded leopards and lions, appear to have relatively low energy expenditures that conserve energy by minimizing activity. Others, such as cheetahs and tigers, appear to expend considerably more energy, which is presumably related to foraging style. Although logistically difficult, the measurement of energy expenditures, via doubly labeled water, of various cat species under field conditions might help explain the differences reported here.
02-13-2022, 08:01 PM( This post was last modified: 02-13-2022, 08:07 PM by SpinoRex )
(02-13-2022, 06:09 AM)Pckts Wrote: Male lions share food with no one, in fact they usurp food from the pride without hunting for it at times. Prides don’t eat until a male allows it.
Not to mention the abundance of food available to them. You’re talking about millions of ungulates at their disposal. There is no place on earth that comes close to the prey biomass you see in Africa.
To be honest i will end the discussion here. My point is clear and your above quote shows everything isnt it? Smuts study basically explains it really well. But i wont talk about tigers but just about lions. Beside the explanation there is no doubt a solitary cat will eat significantly more than a pride male when they have a dead carcass. The problem is most solitary lions wont survive in africa.
A pride male first of all has a pride right(With some cubs, subadults and adult females)? So when a carcass is killed he eats first of course, which i never denied in any form. But what after that? Then the pride will eat and therefore there will be less meat available overall for the male lion(s). I think you could guess how much adult females, subadults will eat from the carcass.
But is that the only factor? No not really. Nonterretorial males killed more frequently adult bufallos, which also contributed to the available meat. I dont have to tell you that there is a significant difference when a whole pride have a bufallo and a lone lion or a small coalition have a bufallo. Also when you look at it some solitary lions are really massive(its rare) but those 2-3 lion coalitions are really heavy. At least heavier than most pride males but that isnt a problem.
Prey of Nonterretorial males and Pride Males
*This image is copyright of its original author
Difference in available meat and food intake of nonterretrial males and pride males
*This image is copyright of its original author
Im asking one thing. You believe a (imaginable) solitary lion will not eat more than a lion with a pride? Also it means a solitary lion will not eat more than a pride male when he has a whole carcass for himself right? Note these are nonterretorial males and not solitary lions with a terretory.
Such nonterretorial males as i said wont be sucessfull (with some exceptions). Many scavengers and deadly enemies with the likes of hyenas and of course lion prides. They have not a own place. The reason why most of them dont make it alone (in Madikwe for example)
So you see some nomadic lions like Kalamas, Ximpoko/Mabande, Mabande/Old Birmingham Male. Also i find it hard to believe that its a coincidence that nearly all record sized males were not pride males but nomadic ones (with some having a alliance).
Quote:Rob (ecologist , Predator Management):
In my experience, the amount of food that non-territorials get is subject
to a variety of factors such as territorial pressures and food availability – so yes if a solitary male or female manages to kill a decent size prey item – they will of course have the opportunity to engorge more than a males in a pride of say 10 – on the same carcass.
In fact some Pilannesberg male solitary lions for example last year looked very lean – as a result of food availabilities and territorial pressures. The solitary +_4-5yr old male that killed a ranger last year was thin as were other male lions sent for autopsies.
So I guess it depends on circumstances – nothing remains static in an ever fluctuating environment. I have seen male lions go from looking very light to great condition within a few weeks - depending mainly on food availability and social pressures.
Basically i was disgareeing because it was proven that NT lions ate more meat than T lions on a daily basis when they kill a carcass. They can gorge themselves more often.
02-13-2022, 08:44 PM( This post was last modified: 02-13-2022, 09:03 PM by Pckts )
(02-13-2022, 08:01 PM)SpinoRex Wrote:
(02-13-2022, 06:09 AM)Pckts Wrote: Male lions share food with no one, in fact they usurp food from the pride without hunting for it at times. Prides don’t eat until a male allows it.
Not to mention the abundance of food available to them. You’re talking about millions of ungulates at their disposal. There is no place on earth that comes close to the prey biomass you see in Africa.
To be honest i will end the discussion here. My point is clear and your above quote shows everything isnt it? Smuts study basically explains it really well. But i wont talk about tigers but just about lions. Beside the explanation there is no doubt a solitary cat will eat significantly more than a pride male when they have a dead carcass. The problem is most solitary lions wont survive in africa.
A pride male first of all has a pride right(With some cubs, subadults and adult females)? So when a carcass is killed he eats first of course, which i never denied in any form. But what after that? Then the pride will eat and therefore there will be less meat available overall for the male lion(s). I think you could guess how much adult females, subadults will eat from the carcass.
But is that the only factor? No not really. Nonterretorial males killed more frequently adult bufallos, which also contributed to the available meat. I dont have to tell you that there is a significant difference when a whole pride have a bufallo and a lone lion or a small coalition have a bufallo. Also when you look at it some solitary lions are really massive(its rare) but those 2-3 lion coalitions are really heavy. At least heavier than most pride males but that isnt a problem.
Prey of Nonterretorial males and Pride Males
*This image is copyright of its original author
Difference in available meat and food intake of nonterretrial males and pride males
*This image is copyright of its original author
Im asking one thing. You believe a (imaginable) solitary lion will not eat more than a lion with a pride? Also it means a solitary lion will not eat more than a pride male when he has a whole carcass for himself right? Note these are nonterretorial males and not solitary lions with a terretory.
Such nonterretorial males as i said wont be sucessfull (with some exceptions). Many scavengers and deadly enemies with the likes of hyenas and of course lion prides. They have not a own place. The reason why most of them dont make it alone (in Madikwe for example)
So you see some nomadic lions like Kalamas, Ximpoko/Mabande, Mabande/Old Birmingham Male. Also i find it hard to believe that its a coincidence that nearly all record sized males were not pride males but nomadic ones (with some having a alliance).
Quote:Rob (ecologist , Predator Management):
In my experience, the amount of food that non-territorials get is subject
to a variety of factors such as territorial pressures and food availability – so yes if a solitary male or female manages to kill a decent size prey item – they will of course have the opportunity to engorge more than a males in a pride of say 10 – on the same carcass.
In fact some Pilannesberg male solitary lions for example last year looked very lean – as a result of food availabilities and territorial pressures. The solitary +_4-5yr old male that killed a ranger last year was thin as were other male lions sent for autopsies.
So I guess it depends on circumstances – nothing remains static in an ever fluctuating environment. I have seen male lions go from looking very light to great condition within a few weeks - depending mainly on food availability and social pressures.
Basically i was disgareeing because it was proven that NT lions ate more meat than T lions on a daily basis when they kill a carcass. They can gorge themselves more often.
First off, nothing you posted has anything to do with how much a territorial/nomadic male eats throughout their life.
The idea that a nomadic male might gorge itself more than a pride male would come down to the fact that they have less access to food as well as being more cautious of losing their kill to a pride male so eating fast is their best option. Territory males have all day to eat as well as unlimited access to more whether that’s by hunting themselves or usurping their prides kill.
I’ll respond more thoroughly to the rest when I have more time but for now I’ll make it very simple.
The Notches, Arguably the most successful pride/coalition in recent history also by no surprise has the largest Lions seen in the Mara. Caesar, Earless, etc. This is because of their pride/coalition, nomadic males face far more hardships hence why the quote from Rob which you didn’t highlight for some reason specifically talks about nomadic males in bad shape.
Territory holding males have the most access to food, there is no debate.
Best territories = most prey
Males eat their fill and usurp others kills, they have the highest terrestrial prey accessibility on the planet.
(02-13-2022, 06:09 AM)Pckts Wrote: Male lions share food with no one, in fact they usurp food from the pride without hunting for it at times. Prides don’t eat until a male allows it.
Not to mention the abundance of food available to them. You’re talking about millions of ungulates at their disposal. There is no place on earth that comes close to the prey biomass you see in Africa.
To be honest i will end the discussion here. My point is clear and your above quote shows everything isnt it? Smuts study basically explains it really well. But i wont talk about tigers but just about lions. Beside the explanation there is no doubt a solitary cat will eat significantly more than a pride male when they have a dead carcass. The problem is most solitary lions wont survive in africa.
A pride male first of all has a pride right(With some cubs, subadults and adult females)? So when a carcass is killed he eats first of course, which i never denied in any form. But what after that? Then the pride will eat and therefore there will be less meat available overall for the male lion(s). I think you could guess how much adult females, subadults will eat from the carcass.
But is that the only factor? No not really. Nonterretorial males killed more frequently adult bufallos, which also contributed to the available meat. I dont have to tell you that there is a significant difference when a whole pride have a bufallo and a lone lion or a small coalition have a bufallo. Also when you look at it some solitary lions are really massive(its rare) but those 2-3 lion coalitions are really heavy. At least heavier than most pride males but that isnt a problem.
Prey of Nonterretorial males and Pride Males
*This image is copyright of its original author
Difference in available meat and food intake of nonterretrial males and pride males
*This image is copyright of its original author
Im asking one thing. You believe a (imaginable) solitary lion will not eat more than a lion with a pride? Also it means a solitary lion will not eat more than a pride male when he has a whole carcass for himself right? Note these are nonterretorial males and not solitary lions with a terretory.
Such nonterretorial males as i said wont be sucessfull (with some exceptions). Many scavengers and deadly enemies with the likes of hyenas and of course lion prides. They have not a own place. The reason why most of them dont make it alone (in Madikwe for example)
So you see some nomadic lions like Kalamas, Ximpoko/Mabande, Mabande/Old Birmingham Male. Also i find it hard to believe that its a coincidence that nearly all record sized males were not pride males but nomadic ones (with some having a alliance).
Quote:Rob (ecologist , Predator Management):
In my experience, the amount of food that non-territorials get is subject
to a variety of factors such as territorial pressures and food availability – so yes if a solitary male or female manages to kill a decent size prey item – they will of course have the opportunity to engorge more than a males in a pride of say 10 – on the same carcass.
In fact some Pilannesberg male solitary lions for example last year looked very lean – as a result of food availabilities and territorial pressures. The solitary +_4-5yr old male that killed a ranger last year was thin as were other male lions sent for autopsies.
So I guess it depends on circumstances – nothing remains static in an ever fluctuating environment. I have seen male lions go from looking very light to great condition within a few weeks - depending mainly on food availability and social pressures.
Basically i was disgareeing because it was proven that NT lions ate more meat than T lions on a daily basis when they kill a carcass. They can gorge themselves more often.
First off, nothing you posted has anything to do with how much a territorial/nomadic male eats throughout their life.
The idea that a nomadic male might gorge itself more than a pride male would come down to the fact that they have less access to food as well as being more cautious of losing their kill to a pride male so eating fast is their best option. Territory males have all day to eat as well as unlimited access to more whether that’s by hunting themselves or usurping their prides kill.
I’ll respond more thoroughly to the rest when I have more time but for now I’ll make it very simple.
The Notches, Arguably the most successful pride/coalition in recent history also by no surprise has the largest Lions seen in the Mara. Caesar, Earless, etc. This is because of their pride/coalition, nomadic males face far more hardships hence why the quote from Rob which you didn’t highlight for some reason specifically talks about nomadic males in bad shape.
Territory holding males have the most access to food, there is no debate.
Best territories = most prey
Males eat their fill and usurp others kills, they have the highest terrestrial prey accessibility on the planet.
To be honest im a bit confused that you still didnt get my point.
I clearly said nonterretorial males wont survive in africa or wont do well. What a suprise as they dont have a terretory especially in a place like africa. But i said there is a difference between the food intake of those who are doing it on both sides (solitary and pride life). Also i dont remember saying pride males cant get big and the likes of notch are literally a kingdom and something, which you call exceptional. Also they were large and big.
I hope you get my point now. Thats the reason why i refused the comparison between lion and tigers in general. The one has a pride and the one is a solitary one. In terms of power the lion if serious doesnt even have to move from its place(2-3 lionesses in a serious mode are enough to overwhelm a male lion) while a tiger is solitary and when having a terretory will be most of the time heavier than a pride male lion. Though im interested how tigers are doing it as nonterretorial cats.
A nonterretorial lion has no place to live. It has no chance against prides, difficulties against a hyena clan and so on. Under those conditions you cant expect any lion-sized big cat to survive well in such a place without a terretory.
The ones who are doing it are living in small areas or in areas where not much action is happening.
A NT male lion who lives like a T male will have without any doubt a higher food intake than a T male. The difference was around 45% in food intake.
02-14-2022, 12:15 AM( This post was last modified: 02-14-2022, 12:16 AM by SpinoRex )
I dont want to make a big discussion. I hope there will be valuable data in the future with accurate estimates or weighing the meat. One meal datas are not usefull as Sunquist also said to me they definetely ate more than 19 kg in one day but in a other day lower than 19 kg. Generally i believe the first meal is the meal where they consume more meat compared to the 2nd and 3rd day. IDK but i think it was mentioned in a similar way in Karanths book. In their first meal they can consume 20-35 kg? Something like that (Does someone have the book or paper?)
(02-13-2022, 05:10 AM)SpinoRex Wrote: You are pointing most of the time individual ones. So in terms of a average food intake on a daily basis thats pretty useless. Among all cats there is no consistence in energy intake. These estimates alone were mere estimations by Smuts and later observed, which made the data usable in the first place(not the estimate of the MDR alone). Even if these are estimates i doubt these are significantly different as they are based on observation to check the estimated MDR, which is alone not much of use. (There are countless estimated food intakes for both species)
A male lion as i said before has to share his food with a pride. Thus it has less meat available and therefore cant eat as much as a nonterretorial male when both have a dead carcass. Thats not a misconception but a clear cut fact and the fact that the difference was significant shows it. Alone that should a enlightment because basically its mentioning "pack" male lions and "solitary" lions. Tigers will represent those solitary lions if not even in a more advanced version. Not mentioning there are more annoying scavengers in africa and some animals like Hyenas and maybe Wild dogs are a proper threat to lone lions. Hyenas are able to steal the whole prey and could even kill a male lion. And how i can forget it.... a lion pride arrives... you have no chance. Also as i pointed out nearly every heavy lions were nomadic ones(small coalition) or solitary ones(Mount Kenya Lion). But fact is that most nonterretorial males didnt make it as reported by Rob to me, which is pretty understandable based on the infos he shared with me. (I know boldchamp from the name but i dont know what you discussed with him. I wasnt active in those old forums and i dont have acess to them.)
Also regarding that i found this study as well. Its more or less again confirming it.
Average digestible energy intakes (DEI) of individual cats are plotted against body mass in Figure 3. A large difference in energy intakes of lions and tigers was evident. For example, the DEI of large male lions was only about half that of the similarly sized male Bengal X Siberian tigers. The natural logarithm (In) of digestible energy intake was plotted against In body mass to examine the scaling of energy intake to body mass (Figure 4). All cats did not appear to follow the same scaling relationship. For example, lions and young clouded leopards appeared to fall on the predicted line that represents extrapolation of the maintenance energy requirements of domestic cats, but cheetahs, Sumatran tigers and Bengal X Siberian tigers had considerably higher energy intakes.
The comparison(which is based on a large sample) of solitary lions and pride lions is enough. Even more so when you compare africa and india, which are in terms of "action" pretty different (at least nowadays, idk how it was in the past).
The really good data comes from Sunquist. The female tigers alone consumed around 16 kg per day and the males 19 kg and that in several days and not in one day observation. Compare that to Smuts pride males (not the calculated MDR but the estimated food intake based on the observation) and it becomes clear. Even if there are some explanations here and there a difference of 9.4 kg vs 19 k shows it. A tiger is basically a solitary/nomadic lion with less difficulties.
For me the main study for this was the comparison between nonterretorial lions and terretorial lions. Also again beside thats nonterretorial ones killed larger preys which is beside the "pride factor" also important.
I dont have the time now to answer the other posts. Will do it later.
You are not getting to point or you are ignoring the information?
The estimations are not from Smuts but from the source of your table. Even then, the values of 6 - 7 kg per day, which is the same as tigers, are just that, estimations of a plausible daily food intake, but as you should know big cats do not eat daily, they eat when they can and may pass one week without eating. That is why they have the strategy to eat as much as they can when they have the availability and lions eat the most because they have the highes prey bases of all the big cats, followed by leopards.
Your point that lone lions eat more than pride lions do not make sense at all. A pride lion eat what he want when he want, and like @Pckts says, they do not share they food (maybe only to its cubs and only when there is plenty of food). Even tigers share more food with others than the male lion. This is the fact, and if the prey hunted in finished in that same day, they just hunt the next day, lions had an easy life (relative speaking) than other great cats. Leopards suffer losses to other big predators, tigers live in low density prey areas and jaguar had only small preys. Lions, on the other hand, had high prey densities in most of the places where they trive, like in Kenya-Tanzania-Etosha-South Africa-Namibia.
In this case, scavengers may affect a pride significanlty only when there are low seasons of prey, otherwise, they only need to kill other prey and that solve the problem.
Under the study of the food intake, you are using CAPTIVE animals to make a claim over WILD animals, that simple do not make sense.
In the case of the tigers, Sunquist do not say that a female eat 16 kg and a male 19 kg especifically, he did not make such distintion and the table is clear, the range is between 14 to 19 kg in both sexes in a 24 hours period. Check also what Schaller said, there are several records of tigresses eating as low as 10 kg, and that was recorded in Nepal too, thanks to Dr Tamang (1982). You are ignoring ALL the information that proves that lions gorge themselves with over 33 kg and you are using only that table that is not even from Smuts directly. All cats try to eat as much as they can, an intake of 9 kg for a male lion will not be enogh to sustain its large size.
So, real intake in lions and tigers can be between 10 - 35 kg based in real observations, ESTIMATED daily food intake is between 6 - 7 kg for male and females of both species. That is the real information based in real events. Lions and tigers had the same food intake, and lions hunt more often thanks to its prey density which contrarrest the share of the kills. Tigers kill one prey every 7-8 days (Sunquist, 1981).
(02-14-2022, 12:15 AM)SpinoRex Wrote: I dont want to make a big discussion. I hope there will be valuable data in the future with accurate estimates or weighing the meat. One meal datas are not usefull as Sunquist also said to me they definetely ate more than 19 kg in one day but in a other day lower than 19 kg. Generally i believe the first meal is the meal where they consume more meat compared to the 2nd and 3rd day. IDK but i think it was mentioned in a similar way in Karanths book. In their first meal they can consume 20-35 kg? Something like that (Does someone have the book or paper?)
Is correct, lions and tigers eat more in the first day, but those values (14-19 kg) for tigers are the average, not the extrems. In extream figures check with Tamand (1982) says:
*This image is copyright of its original author
So this means that while tigers may eat as much as 34 kg and as low as 11 kg, the average is between 14 - 19 kg, depending of external factors.
And please, remember Schaller too which recorded several instance of tigers eating between 10 to 27 kg (that last one is from the only male that he recorded).
And finally, remember that when the large male from Panna M-91 was darted, it was estimated to have 30 kg in its belly, but when he vomit after the capture, Dr Chundawat weighed the amount of food and was 19 kg, which was more or less what ate in a night. So, a big tiger do not automatically means a huge amount of food.
(02-13-2022, 08:44 PM)Pckts Wrote: The Notches, Arguably the most successful pride/coalition in recent history also by no surprise has the largest Lions seen in the Mara. Caesar, Earless, etc. This is because of their pride/coalition, nomadic males face far more hardships hence why the quote from Rob which you didn’t highlight for some reason specifically talks about nomadic males in bad shape.
Territory holding males have the most access to food, there is no debate.
Best territories = most prey
Males eat their fill and usurp others kills, they have the highest terrestrial prey accessibility on the planet.
Quote:Beside the explanation there is no doubt a solitary cat will eat significantly more than a pride male when they have a dead carcass. The problem is most solitary lions wont survive in africa.
This is incorrect, a Pride male will eats his fill just like a solitary cat. On top of that, they have far more access to food that they don't have to hunt themselves.
Generally a kill that isn't tree stashed is going to be scavenged as soon as the big cat leaves.
Quote:But what after that? Then the pride will eat and therefore there will be less meat available overall for the male lion(s). I think you could guess how much adult females, subadults will eat from the carcass.
If it's a large enough to where the cat can come back to feed on it for multiple days then that is an advantage for the solitary cat but it's only good for a couple of days and the solitary cat once gorged is generally uninterested after that. Not to mention, like solitary cats, Coalition males will also guard large kills and keep others away if they desire.
Quote:Nonterretorial males killed more frequently adult bufallos, which also contributed to the available meat. I dont have to tell you that there is a significant difference when a whole pride have a bufallo and a lone lion or a small coalition have a bufallo. Also when you look at it some solitary lions are really massive(its rare) but those 2-3 lion coalitions are really heavy. At least heavier than most pride males but that isnt a problem.
Probably because they're forced to prey on them since pride males territory encompasses a wider variety of animals which is why they chose the territory to defend in the first place. Not to mention they have the help of the entire pride which will also contribute to a wider variety of prey items. And since the table posted by you doesn't mention how this data was obtained, I'm guessing scat with occasional carcass viewing which wouldn't have anything to do with what the Pride males were actually hunting as opposed to what they are eating. Since it's already been discussed how they usurp pride kills, this makes total sense for them to have a larger variety.
And no, non territorial males aren't heavier than pride males. If you have to mention it being "rare" that means you already know that isn't the case outside of an occasional outlier which would have more to do with it being a large, young male who's size will only increase once he takes over a pride. It's pretty simple, pride holding males do better than nomadic ones.
Quote:You believe a (imaginable) solitary lion will not eat more than a lion with a pride? Also it means a solitary lion will not eat more than a pride male when he has a whole carcass for himself right? Note these are nonterretorial males and not solitary lions with a terretory. Such nonterretorial males as i said wont be sucessfull (with some exceptions). Many scavengers and deadly enemies with the likes of hyenas and of course lion prides. They have not a own place. The reason why most of them dont make it alone (in Madikwe for example)
I believe a solitary Lion will not eat more than a pride Lion throughout it's life. It's not really debatable since it's already specified how they lose body condition. And Hyenas aren't "deadly enemies," they are little threat to a pride and no threat to a coalition. Yes they can usurp from a small number of females but this is rare. Other Lions on the other hand are definitely a threat which is why having a back up is so important. Something non territorial males don't have unless they form coalition and if that becomes the case they don't stay non territorial for long, they generally overtake a pride once capable.
Quote:So you see some nomadic lions like Kalamas, Ximpoko/Mabande, Mabande/Old Birmingham Male. Also i find it hard to believe that its a coincidence that nearly all record sized males were not pride males but nomadic ones (with some having a alliance).
Exactly which "record" sized males are you talking about?
The problem is that these recent claims from private reserves aren't reliable and of course have led to quite a bit of misinformation. The real data we have certainly don't back that claim, comparing Timbavati Lion weight claims to Smuts actual Kruger weights for instance is a huge stretch. You must take into account the validity of the source as well as the details presented.
And even the males you mentioned still had coalition partners and prides. You seem to think that these males are permanent fixtures in prides but that's not how it works. In fact a lot of them may even have multiple prides. Pride males come and go as they please with the pride, they still patrol, they generally aren't going to be with the pride unless mating or scavenging their kill.
It comes down to survival of the fittest.
Males #1 concern is breeding, it's their primal drive and they can only do that with females. Females live in prides and thus the males must rule them, the strongest males rule these prides until stronger males come in and take over. These prides live in territories that produce the most prey which is why they chose to raise cubs there.
Quote:In terms of power the lion if serious doesnt even have to move from its place(2-3 lionesses in a serious mode are enough to overwhelm a male lion)
2/3 Lioness will not displace a pride male, in fact I've seen single pride males run off 10-12 Lioness from kills. There is no question, the male decides when he's done and if others can feed.
Quote:while a tiger is solitary and when having a terretory will be most of the time heavier than a pride male lion. Though im interested how tigers are doing it as nonterretorial cats.
Like any non territorial cat, they'll not do as well since the territories that possess the most prey and females are ruled by larger males. They'll need to live on the outskirts and buffer areas to put on mass and gain skill then possibly they'll come back to challenge but most of the time they are never seen again.
Quote:A NT male lion who lives like a T male will have without any doubt a higher food intake than a T male. The difference was around 45% in food intake.
A NT can't like like a T male, this is the whole point. And it's why their whole drive is to rule a pride of their own.
Ruling a pride doesn't mean living with them 24/7 it just means the breeding rights and territory is theirs.
02-15-2022, 12:40 AM( This post was last modified: 02-15-2022, 12:47 AM by SpinoRex )
(02-14-2022, 08:28 PM)GuateGojira Wrote:
(02-13-2022, 05:10 AM)SpinoRex Wrote: You are pointing most of the time individual ones. So in terms of a average food intake on a daily basis thats pretty useless. Among all cats there is no consistence in energy intake. These estimates alone were mere estimations by Smuts and later observed, which made the data usable in the first place(not the estimate of the MDR alone). Even if these are estimates i doubt these are significantly different as they are based on observation to check the estimated MDR, which is alone not much of use. (There are countless estimated food intakes for both species)
A male lion as i said before has to share his food with a pride. Thus it has less meat available and therefore cant eat as much as a nonterretorial male when both have a dead carcass. Thats not a misconception but a clear cut fact and the fact that the difference was significant shows it. Alone that should a enlightment because basically its mentioning "pack" male lions and "solitary" lions. Tigers will represent those solitary lions if not even in a more advanced version. Not mentioning there are more annoying scavengers in africa and some animals like Hyenas and maybe Wild dogs are a proper threat to lone lions. Hyenas are able to steal the whole prey and could even kill a male lion. And how i can forget it.... a lion pride arrives... you have no chance. Also as i pointed out nearly every heavy lions were nomadic ones(small coalition) or solitary ones(Mount Kenya Lion). But fact is that most nonterretorial males didnt make it as reported by Rob to me, which is pretty understandable based on the infos he shared with me. (I know boldchamp from the name but i dont know what you discussed with him. I wasnt active in those old forums and i dont have acess to them.)
Also regarding that i found this study as well. Its more or less again confirming it.
Average digestible energy intakes (DEI) of individual cats are plotted against body mass in Figure 3. A large difference in energy intakes of lions and tigers was evident. For example, the DEI of large male lions was only about half that of the similarly sized male Bengal X Siberian tigers. The natural logarithm (In) of digestible energy intake was plotted against In body mass to examine the scaling of energy intake to body mass (Figure 4). All cats did not appear to follow the same scaling relationship. For example, lions and young clouded leopards appeared to fall on the predicted line that represents extrapolation of the maintenance energy requirements of domestic cats, but cheetahs, Sumatran tigers and Bengal X Siberian tigers had considerably higher energy intakes.
The comparison(which is based on a large sample) of solitary lions and pride lions is enough. Even more so when you compare africa and india, which are in terms of "action" pretty different (at least nowadays, idk how it was in the past).
The really good data comes from Sunquist. The female tigers alone consumed around 16 kg per day and the males 19 kg and that in several days and not in one day observation. Compare that to Smuts pride males (not the calculated MDR but the estimated food intake based on the observation) and it becomes clear. Even if there are some explanations here and there a difference of 9.4 kg vs 19 k shows it. A tiger is basically a solitary/nomadic lion with less difficulties.
For me the main study for this was the comparison between nonterretorial lions and terretorial lions. Also again beside thats nonterretorial ones killed larger preys which is beside the "pride factor" also important.
I dont have the time now to answer the other posts. Will do it later.
You are not getting to point or you are ignoring the information?
The estimations are not from Smuts but from the source of your table. Even then, the values of 6 - 7 kg per day, which is the same as tigers, are just that, estimations of a plausible daily food intake, but as you should know big cats do not eat daily, they eat when they can and may pass one week without eating. That is why they have the strategy to eat as much as they can when they have the availability and lions eat the most because they have the highes prey bases of all the big cats, followed by leopards.
Your point that lone lions eat more than pride lions do not make sense at all. A pride lion eat what he want when he want, and like @Pckts says, they do not share they food (maybe only to its cubs and only when there is plenty of food). Even tigers share more food with others than the male lion. This is the fact, and if the prey hunted in finished in that same day, they just hunt the next day, lions had an easy life (relative speaking) than other great cats. Leopards suffer losses to other big predators, tigers live in low density prey areas and jaguar had only small preys. Lions, on the other hand, had high prey densities in most of the places where they trive, like in Kenya-Tanzania-Etosha-South Africa-Namibia.
In this case, scavengers may affect a pride significanlty only when there are low seasons of prey, otherwise, they only need to kill other prey and that solve the problem.
Under the study of the food intake, you are using CAPTIVE animals to make a claim over WILD animals, that simple do not make sense.
In the case of the tigers, Sunquist do not say that a female eat 16 kg and a male 19 kg especifically, he did not make such distintion and the table is clear, the range is between 14 to 19 kg in both sexes in a 24 hours period. Check also what Schaller said, there are several records of tigresses eating as low as 10 kg, and that was recorded in Nepal too, thanks to Dr Tamang (1982). You are ignoring ALL the information that proves that lions gorge themselves with over 33 kg and you are using only that table that is not even from Smuts directly. All cats try to eat as much as they can, an intake of 9 kg for a male lion will not be enogh to sustain its large size.
So, real intake in lions and tigers can be between 10 - 35 kg based in real observations, ESTIMATED daily food intake is between 6 - 7 kg for male and females of both species. That is the real information based in real events. Lions and tigers had the same food intake, and lions hunt more often thanks to its prey density which contrarrest the share of the kills. Tigers kill one prey every 7-8 days (Sunquist, 1981).
I said before the calculated estimates alone such as MDR are useless. But why? Smuts is assuming that the Kruger lions are larger than the Kenya males, which i doubt in terms of skeleton size(at least not that much). But generally a minimum daily food intake should be in that range but cant give you any idea of the true food intake of a specific lion population.
The numbers labeled as MDR are estimates based on estimates and talking about the minimum(useless to determine the food intake accurately for collared lions as its giving the c. minimum food intake). I was talking about the real food intake of those lions and the clear cut statement from the study(T males did not consume more or less than the estimated MDR, but NT males did) when it comes to prey killed and food intake. One thing that should be noted is that Terretorial males also obtained significantly more meat from the carcass they killed themselves, showing similaritties to nonterretorial males when behaving like them.
But NT males wont be heavier overall with some exceptions or small alliances (which arent fully solitary but still its more or less close to it as killling preys is much easier)
The numbers from the nepal study ate between 14-19 kg on average but calculating the average its c.16 kg for females and c.19 kg for males.
Quote:Beside the explanation there is no doubt a solitary cat will eat significantly more than a pride male when they have a dead carcass. The problem is most solitary lions wont survive in africa.
This is incorrect, a Pride male will eats his fill just like a solitary cat. On top of that, they have far more access to food that they don't have to hunt themselves.
Generally a kill that isn't tree stashed is going to be scavenged as soon as the big cat leaves.
Quote:But what after that? Then the pride will eat and therefore there will be less meat available overall for the male lion(s). I think you could guess how much adult females, subadults will eat from the carcass.
If it's a large enough to where the cat can come back to feed on it for multiple days then that is an advantage for the solitary cat but it's only good for a couple of days and the solitary cat once gorged is generally uninterested after that. Not to mention, like solitary cats, Coalition males will also guard large kills and keep others away if they desire.
Quote:Nonterretorial males killed more frequently adult bufallos, which also contributed to the available meat. I dont have to tell you that there is a significant difference when a whole pride have a bufallo and a lone lion or a small coalition have a bufallo. Also when you look at it some solitary lions are really massive(its rare) but those 2-3 lion coalitions are really heavy. At least heavier than most pride males but that isnt a problem.
Probably because they're forced to prey on them since pride males territory encompasses a wider variety of animals which is why they chose the territory to defend in the first place. Not to mention they have the help of the entire pride which will also contribute to a wider variety of prey items. And since the table posted by you doesn't mention how this data was obtained, I'm guessing scat with occasional carcass viewing which wouldn't have anything to do with what the Pride males were actually hunting as opposed to what they are eating. Since it's already been discussed how they usurp pride kills, this makes total sense for them to have a larger variety.
And no, non territorial males aren't heavier than pride males. If you have to mention it being "rare" that means you already know that isn't the case outside of an occasional outlier which would have more to do with it being a large, young male who's size will only increase once he takes over a pride. It's pretty simple, pride holding males do better than nomadic ones.
Quote:You believe a (imaginable) solitary lion will not eat more than a lion with a pride? Also it means a solitary lion will not eat more than a pride male when he has a whole carcass for himself right? Note these are nonterretorial males and not solitary lions with a terretory. Such nonterretorial males as i said wont be sucessfull (with some exceptions). Many scavengers and deadly enemies with the likes of hyenas and of course lion prides. They have not a own place. The reason why most of them dont make it alone (in Madikwe for example)
I believe a solitary Lion will not eat more than a pride Lion throughout it's life. It's not really debatable since it's already specified how they lose body condition. And Hyenas aren't "deadly enemies," they are little threat to a pride and no threat to a coalition. Yes they can usurp from a small number of females but this is rare. Other Lions on the other hand are definitely a threat which is why having a back up is so important. Something non territorial males don't have unless they form coalition and if that becomes the case they don't stay non territorial for long, they generally overtake a pride once capable.
Quote:So you see some nomadic lions like Kalamas, Ximpoko/Mabande, Mabande/Old Birmingham Male. Also i find it hard to believe that its a coincidence that nearly all record sized males were not pride males but nomadic ones (with some having a alliance).
Exactly which "record" sized males are you talking about?
The problem is that these recent claims from private reserves aren't reliable and of course have led to quite a bit of misinformation. The real data we have certainly don't back that claim, comparing Timbavati Lion weight claims to Smuts actual Kruger weights for instance is a huge stretch. You must take into account the validity of the source as well as the details presented.
And even the males you mentioned still had coalition partners and prides. You seem to think that these males are permanent fixtures in prides but that's not how it works. In fact a lot of them may even have multiple prides. Pride males come and go as they please with the pride, they still patrol, they generally aren't going to be with the pride unless mating or scavenging their kill.
It comes down to survival of the fittest.
Males #1 concern is breeding, it's their primal drive and they can only do that with females. Females live in prides and thus the males must rule them, the strongest males rule these prides until stronger males come in and take over. These prides live in territories that produce the most prey which is why they chose to raise cubs there.
Quote:In terms of power the lion if serious doesnt even have to move from its place(2-3 lionesses in a serious mode are enough to overwhelm a male lion)
2/3 Lioness will not displace a pride male, in fact I've seen single pride males run off 10-12 Lioness from kills. There is no question, the male decides when he's done and if others can feed.
Quote:while a tiger is solitary and when having a terretory will be most of the time heavier than a pride male lion. Though im interested how tigers are doing it as nonterretorial cats.
Like any non territorial cat, they'll not do as well since the territories that possess the most prey and females are ruled by larger males. They'll need to live on the outskirts and buffer areas to put on mass and gain skill then possibly they'll come back to challenge but most of the time they are never seen again.
Quote:A NT male lion who lives like a T male will have without any doubt a higher food intake than a T male. The difference was around 45% in food intake.
A NT can't like like a T male, this is the whole point. And it's why their whole drive is to rule a pride of their own.
Ruling a pride doesn't mean living with them 24/7 it just means the breeding rights and territory is theirs.
I dont have the time really to discuss unnecessary things as well im pretty concerned about your behavior in denying datas. I got the infos/sources regarding the weights of those heavy lions now. The study includes all types of preys (the one they killed themselves and pride kills) and its so detailed with large samples that i do not have to add anything to it. And the fact we are talking about solitary cats with no terretory should ring a alarm basically.
As i said using the datas and a bit of logical understanding should clear it. What you are mentioning is that what i mentioned (on average) having a safe live with a pride with not having much more meat than the MDR but not more less. So a bit more consistent.
*Now regarding the weights*
The males Ximpoko and Mabande (both nomads) were collared and weighed by the Leopard research Project and Ximpoko later confirmed by the reserve headquarter and ecologist(scientist) who was the supervisor including the vets. Im especially more concerned when you are saying that its stretched. Because lions of 260 kg (5.5 years old, normal length) where weighed out of a sample of 15 and even one of 272 kg withoutbeing gorged as i know.
About the males from Madikwe. Well the job was done at the end by contacting the reserve management/HQ , which revealed that Kwande was estimated and actually the batia males was the heaviest lion weighed there. (Still waiting for robs email)
So according to you as the heaviest lion for kenyan lions was 204 kg from Smuts data the 237 kg one and 272 kg (both scientific) are also not reliable. You can have doubts, which i can clearly understand for any weight of that class (no matter scientific...) but claiming them as not reliabile isnt based on anything.
(02-15-2022, 12:40 AM)SpinoRex Wrote: I said before the calculated estimates alone such as MDR are useless. But why? Smuts is assuming that the Kruger lions are larger than the Kenya males, which i doubt in terms of skeleton size(at least not that much). But generally a minimum daily food intake should be in that range but cant give you any idea of the true food intake of a specific lion population.
The numbers labeled as MDR are estimates based on estimates and talking about the minimum(useless to determine the food intake accurately for collared lions as its giving the c. minimum food intake). I was talking about the real food intake of those lions and the clear cut statement from the study(T males did not consume more or less than the estimated MDR, but NT males did) when it comes to prey killed and food intake. One thing that should be noted is that Terretorial males also obtained significantly more meat from the carcass they killed themselves, showing similaritties to nonterretorial males when behaving like them.
But NT males wont be heavier overall with some exceptions or small alliances (which arent fully solitary but still its more or less close to it as killling preys is much easier)
The numbers from the nepal study ate between 14-19 kg on average but calculating the average its c.16 kg for females and c.19 kg for males.
Can you show the specific part in the study of Smuts where he says that? As far I know, Smuts did not calculated any food intake. I want to see the study please.
I am with Pckt on this, it do not make sense that a territorial dominant male, that can or not hunt when he wants, that can go and take any prey from the pride that he wants and that had a much regular prey base, is going to weight less than a male that need to hunt for himself, that do not have a regular prey base and that will have a successfull hunting rate lower than the one of the pride.
Again, in the Nepal study, no one says that females is 16 kg and males is 19 kg, that is not stated in ANY part of the study of Sunquist. In fact, Sunquist himself told be to use 14 kg for both sexes, with no discrimination. I personally estimated that 14 kg will be "ok" for females and 17 kg will be "ok" for males, for stomach content corrections, taking in cound that M-91 (the biggest male from Panna), one of the biggest males captured in India, did had only 19 kg in a full night of feedings, so regular males probably ate less.
(02-15-2022, 01:08 AM)SpinoRex Wrote: So according to you as the heaviest lion for kenyan lions was 204 kg from Smuts data the 237 kg one and 272 kg (both scientific) are also not reliable.
Can you show me the lion of 237 kg, please? What is the source and the location?
Quote:Beside the explanation there is no doubt a solitary cat will eat significantly more than a pride male when they have a dead carcass. The problem is most solitary lions wont survive in africa.
This is incorrect, a Pride male will eats his fill just like a solitary cat. On top of that, they have far more access to food that they don't have to hunt themselves.
Generally a kill that isn't tree stashed is going to be scavenged as soon as the big cat leaves.
Quote:But what after that? Then the pride will eat and therefore there will be less meat available overall for the male lion(s). I think you could guess how much adult females, subadults will eat from the carcass.
If it's a large enough to where the cat can come back to feed on it for multiple days then that is an advantage for the solitary cat but it's only good for a couple of days and the solitary cat once gorged is generally uninterested after that. Not to mention, like solitary cats, Coalition males will also guard large kills and keep others away if they desire.
Quote:Nonterretorial males killed more frequently adult bufallos, which also contributed to the available meat. I dont have to tell you that there is a significant difference when a whole pride have a bufallo and a lone lion or a small coalition have a bufallo. Also when you look at it some solitary lions are really massive(its rare) but those 2-3 lion coalitions are really heavy. At least heavier than most pride males but that isnt a problem.
Probably because they're forced to prey on them since pride males territory encompasses a wider variety of animals which is why they chose the territory to defend in the first place. Not to mention they have the help of the entire pride which will also contribute to a wider variety of prey items. And since the table posted by you doesn't mention how this data was obtained, I'm guessing scat with occasional carcass viewing which wouldn't have anything to do with what the Pride males were actually hunting as opposed to what they are eating. Since it's already been discussed how they usurp pride kills, this makes total sense for them to have a larger variety.
And no, non territorial males aren't heavier than pride males. If you have to mention it being "rare" that means you already know that isn't the case outside of an occasional outlier which would have more to do with it being a large, young male who's size will only increase once he takes over a pride. It's pretty simple, pride holding males do better than nomadic ones.
Quote:You believe a (imaginable) solitary lion will not eat more than a lion with a pride? Also it means a solitary lion will not eat more than a pride male when he has a whole carcass for himself right? Note these are nonterretorial males and not solitary lions with a terretory. Such nonterretorial males as i said wont be sucessfull (with some exceptions). Many scavengers and deadly enemies with the likes of hyenas and of course lion prides. They have not a own place. The reason why most of them dont make it alone (in Madikwe for example)
I believe a solitary Lion will not eat more than a pride Lion throughout it's life. It's not really debatable since it's already specified how they lose body condition. And Hyenas aren't "deadly enemies," they are little threat to a pride and no threat to a coalition. Yes they can usurp from a small number of females but this is rare. Other Lions on the other hand are definitely a threat which is why having a back up is so important. Something non territorial males don't have unless they form coalition and if that becomes the case they don't stay non territorial for long, they generally overtake a pride once capable.
Quote:So you see some nomadic lions like Kalamas, Ximpoko/Mabande, Mabande/Old Birmingham Male. Also i find it hard to believe that its a coincidence that nearly all record sized males were not pride males but nomadic ones (with some having a alliance).
Exactly which "record" sized males are you talking about?
The problem is that these recent claims from private reserves aren't reliable and of course have led to quite a bit of misinformation. The real data we have certainly don't back that claim, comparing Timbavati Lion weight claims to Smuts actual Kruger weights for instance is a huge stretch. You must take into account the validity of the source as well as the details presented.
And even the males you mentioned still had coalition partners and prides. You seem to think that these males are permanent fixtures in prides but that's not how it works. In fact a lot of them may even have multiple prides. Pride males come and go as they please with the pride, they still patrol, they generally aren't going to be with the pride unless mating or scavenging their kill.
It comes down to survival of the fittest.
Males #1 concern is breeding, it's their primal drive and they can only do that with females. Females live in prides and thus the males must rule them, the strongest males rule these prides until stronger males come in and take over. These prides live in territories that produce the most prey which is why they chose to raise cubs there.
Quote:In terms of power the lion if serious doesnt even have to move from its place(2-3 lionesses in a serious mode are enough to overwhelm a male lion)
2/3 Lioness will not displace a pride male, in fact I've seen single pride males run off 10-12 Lioness from kills. There is no question, the male decides when he's done and if others can feed.
Quote:while a tiger is solitary and when having a terretory will be most of the time heavier than a pride male lion. Though im interested how tigers are doing it as nonterretorial cats.
Like any non territorial cat, they'll not do as well since the territories that possess the most prey and females are ruled by larger males. They'll need to live on the outskirts and buffer areas to put on mass and gain skill then possibly they'll come back to challenge but most of the time they are never seen again.
Quote:A NT male lion who lives like a T male will have without any doubt a higher food intake than a T male. The difference was around 45% in food intake.
A NT can't like like a T male, this is the whole point. And it's why their whole drive is to rule a pride of their own.
Ruling a pride doesn't mean living with them 24/7 it just means the breeding rights and territory is theirs.
I dont have the time really to discuss unnecessary things as well im pretty concerned about your behavior in denying datas. I got the infos/sources regarding the weights of those heavy lions now. The study includes all types of preys (the one they killed themselves and pride kills) and its so detailed with large samples that i do not have to add anything to it. And the fact we are talking about solitary cats with no terretory should ring a alarm basically.
As i said using the datas and a bit of logical understanding should clear it. What you are mentioning is that what i mentioned (on average) having a safe live with a pride with not having much more meat than the MDR but not more less. So a bit more consistent.
*Now regarding the weights*
The males Ximpoko and Mabande (both nomads) were collared and weighed by the Leopard research Project and Ximpoko later confirmed by the reserve headquarter and ecologist(scientist) who was the supervisor including the vets. Im especially more concerned when you are saying that its stretched. Because lions of 260 kg (5.5 years old, normal length) where weighed out of a sample of 15 and even one of 272 kg withoutbeing gorged as i know.
About the males from Madikwe. Well the job was done at the end by contacting the reserve management/HQ , which revealed that Kwande was estimated and actually the batia males was the heaviest lion weighed there. (Still waiting for robs email)
So according to you as the heaviest lion for kenyan lions was 204 kg from Smuts data the 237 kg one and 272 kg (both scientific) are also not reliable. You can have doubts, which i can clearly understand for any weight of that class (no matter scientific...) but claiming them as not reliabile isnt based on anything.
Ximpoko was part of a coalition and after he was poached, his partner, Mabande joined another Birmingham male and took over the Trilogy males pride and had cubs with the Ross pride. So again, I’m not sure where you’re getting the idea that these males didn’t have prides.
Also, don’t put words in my mouth. When I quote smuts it’s because he has the largest data set available with far more reliable information. I don’t blindly accept claims on record lions from private reserves that came from 2nd hand sources. Which generally serves me well or else we’d just add Caesar, Keandwe, Leingmara or the zimbabwe males.
Modern Weights and Measurements of Wild Lions
