Modern Weights and Measurements of Leopards

[Balam]

(02-11-2021, 08:30 PM)LoveAnimals Wrote: Normal in which way? As much as I heard males from Namibia average something like 70.3 kgs as liupaard said and there was another post of the weights of several males that averages around 72 kgs somewhere. I would give this leopard a weight of around 86 kgs on empty stomach. Still a large animal.

The average given in post #169 doesn't give us a range or a sample size to deduct its accuracy, also that average was given in a social media comment, and as I remember correctly the same people using that as an average for a leopard population are the same ones trying to delegitimize weights provided by biologists and scientific organizations for other felids through social media means when it suits them.

The average of 72 kg for KwaZulu-Natal leopards only represents leopards of one specific age class and it's not an accurate average for the population as a whole. Population averages involve individuals from all age ranges, from young adults to really old individuals. Exclusively pointing out leopards who are in their prime and singling them out from the rest to reach a higher average is sample bias. If we were to do the same with other species the averages for every single one of those species would be higher as well.

One more thing, Vin Diesel the leopard was never confirmed by any scientific source to have weighed 97 kg. That claim is derived from a Facebook post unrelated to any reputable organization. If we were to take the 97 kg weight claim as face value, then claims of jaguars such as Ruxu weighing 158 kg, or tigers weighing 300+ kg shared on social media would have to be seen as reliable as well. The point being, none of them are. Reply

[AndresVida]

(02-11-2021, 09:21 PM)Balam Wrote:

(02-11-2021, 08:30 PM)LoveAnimals Wrote: Normal in which way? As much as I heard males from Namibia average something like 70.3 kgs as liupaard said and there was another post of the weights of several males that averages around 72 kgs somewhere. I would give this leopard a weight of around 86 kgs on empty stomach. Still a large animal.

The average given in post #169 doesn't give us a range or a sample size to deduct its accuracy, also that average was given in a social media comment, and as I remember correctly the same people using that as an average for a leopard population are the same ones trying to delegitimize weights provided by biologists and scientific organizations for other felids through social media means when it suits them.

The average of 72 kg for KwaZulu-Natal leopards only represents leopards of one specific age class and it's not an accurate average for the population as a whole. Population averages involve individuals from all age ranges, from young adults to really old individuals. Exclusively pointing out leopards who are in their prime and singling them out from the rest to reach a higher average is sample bias. If we were to do the same with other species the averages for every single one of those species would be higher as well.

One more thing, Vin Diesel the leopard was never confirmed by any scientific source to have weighed 97 kg. That claim is derived from a Facebook post unrelated to any reputable organization. If we were to take the 97 kg weight claim as face value, then claims of jaguars such as Ruxu weighing 158 kg, or tigers weighing 300+ kg shared on social media would have to be seen as reliable as well. The point being, none of them are.

I guess that most of those weighs are reliable, but the only thing that plays a huge determining factor in these huge weights is simply stomach content. 

Probably most of the animals that weigh this much are simply gorged. Wasn't Adriano the name of the 158 kg male jaguar? He was with full stomach and it's weight was confirmed even though with stomach content. 
I never heard the name Ruxu. Fact is, in my opinion most maximum sized predators are gorged ones, with few exceptions. 

With the many alleged and unverified claims of 97, 103, 108 and 113 kg leopards at maximum size, the confirmed one is 96 kg from Namibia. 

I guess it's this one below 

*This image is copyright of its original author

Sorry for the disturbing images I hate poachers too

Following the 95 kg persian male that was weighed 115 kg but later it changed. 

Do you think that the 1002 kg polar bear was gorged too? I guess it was more like fat accumulation to survive the harsh temperatures of the arctic. Reply

[Balam]

@"LoveAnimals" Adriano and Ruxu are the same, he never weighed 158 kg, his correct weight when he was captured by Panthera was 130 kg which is included in one paper. The 158 kg claim was likely the result of misinformation that was quickly spread through social media.

Different scientific sources quote the maximum size for jaguars at 158 kg, but that is based on one specimen hunted by Sasha Siemel named "Asesino" who he alleged at that weight, after him there is another jaguar from the Llanos hunted with a weight of 159 kg that has also been included in scientific work. Most of us here go by recent captures that can be more easily corroborated and for jaguars that would include Lopez who weighed 148 kg empty.

Back to leopards, the alleged weights you just listed all come from dubious social media sources. Many of us here take social media comments or post seriously only when they come from an official account from a reputable entity. Since we don't know if those weights mentioned include a defective scale (such as the case for the 113 kg leopard, who also happened to be severely gorged), or were estimates/exaggerations (especially by hunters), we cannot rely on them as solid evidence to substantiate that a specific species grows to those alleged sizes.

About the polar bear question, try asking that in the "Bear Size ~" thread and post the original link so we can discuss it better and others can chime in and well. Reply

[AndresVida]

(02-11-2021, 09:55 PM)Balam Wrote: @"LoveAnimals" Adriano and Ruxu are the same, he never weighed 158 kg, his correct weight when he was captured by Panthera was 130 kg which is included in one paper. The 158 kg claim was likely the result of misinformation that was quickly spread through social media.

Different scientific sources quote the maximum size for jaguars at 158 kg, but that is based on one specimen hunted by Sasha Siemel named "Asesino" who he alleged at that weight, after him there is another jaguar from the Llanos hunted with a weight of 159 kg that has also been included in scientific work. Most of us here go by recent captures that can be more easily corroborated and for jaguars that would include Lopez who weighed 148 kg empty.

Back to leopards, the alleged weights you just listed all come from dubious social media sources. Many of us here take social media comments or post seriously only when they come from an official account from a reputable entity. Since we don't know if those weights mentioned include a defective scale (such as the case for the 113 kg leopard, who also happened to be severely gorged), or were estimates/exaggerations (especially by hunters), we cannot rely on them as solid evidence to substantiate that a specific species grows to those alleged sizes.

About the polar bear question, try asking that in the "Bear Size ~" thread and post the original link so we can discuss it better and others can chime in and well.

Yea those giant leopards aren't verified, the largest confirmed remains the 96 kg one. In my opinion leopards can reach maximum weighs of 100+kgs but that would be extremely rare since most of males arenin the 67-96 kg range (note : I found out that both the 103 kg and the 108 kg leopards were baited, same for the 113 kg one. Could that possibly be the reason why? Possibly.)

Does the Bear Size Thread already exist or should I create a new one? I am making by myself size comparison charts of most animals so as the next one I can do the Polar bear vs Kodiak bear size comparison don't you think? Reply

[Luipaard]

(02-11-2021, 09:21 PM)Balam Wrote: The average given in post #169 doesn't give us a range or a sample size to deduct its accuracy, also that average was given in a social media comment, and as I remember correctly the same people using that as an average for a leopard population are the same ones trying to delegitimize weights provided by biologists and scientific organizations for other felids through social media means when it suits them.

 His comment was in response to someone else and does not originate from social media but from the offical Northern Tuli Predator Project website.

*This image is copyright of its original author

Quote:Many of us here take social media comments or post seriously only when they come from an official account from a reputable entity.

You realise that Andrei Snyman is a researcher and collared the leopards himself right? How is he not 'a reputable entity'? Just because we lack the sample size doesn't mean the data is unreliable. Reply

[Pckts]

(02-11-2021, 09:09 PM)LoveAnimals Wrote:

(02-11-2021, 08:58 PM)Pckts Wrote:

(02-11-2021, 08:30 PM)LoveAnimals Wrote: Normal in which way? As much as I heard males from Namibia average something like 70.3 kgs as liupaard said and there was another post of the weights of several males that averages around 72 kgs somewhere. I would give this leopard a weight of around 86 kgs on empty stomach. Still a large animal.

Normal in regards to its body length and although the skull is a bit behind the man it doesn’t seem to be anything excessive.
He also said that he has no idea about its skull score.

In regards to Namibian Leopard size

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

A 290 cm long leopard???? Man I'm so impressed I mean male lions are generally around 280-310 cms long from head to tail and I thought the longest leopard ever measured was about 275 cm long shot in Algeria (yes, barbary leopard). 

That's the max length measurement I used in my size comparisons (can you please see them? It's always on wild fact but the thread is "size comparisons" and the page is the last, number 76)

You can easily recognize them I used a tesla-like font for the title, the background is grey with a black figure for a man and animals side by side. If i remember correctly the comparisons were leopard vs grey wolf, leopard vs canada cougar, bengal tiger vs sout african lion and african leopard vs Pantanal jaguar.

Figure the gentleman is 6' or 182cm

The head of the gentleman is still above the Leopard and the leopards tail base reaches his shin but notice his legs are bent. 
So let's say when he straightens out the Leopards head and straightens out his legs, the Leopard HBL will be around 4.5-5 and the Tail length generally is 3'

So 137cm- 152cm body length and an estimated TBL of 228cm-243cm

Also you need to be careful when comparing HBL of other specimens. First you must find out the protocol used (Between the pegs or over the curves)
Between the pegs will be more accurate as over the curves leaves more room for error and produces a larger number.
Also in regards to shoulder height, you must find out if they are measuring to the bottom of the foot while it's extended down or if they are measuring the beginning of the heel pad. The bottom of the foot will increase the height as well. Reply

[Balam]

(02-11-2021, 10:40 PM)Luipaard Wrote:

(02-11-2021, 09:21 PM)Balam Wrote: The average given in post #169 doesn't give us a range or a sample size to deduct its accuracy, also that average was given in a social media comment, and as I remember correctly the same people using that as an average for a leopard population are the same ones trying to delegitimize weights provided by biologists and scientific organizations for other felids through social media means when it suits them.

 His comment was in response to someone else and does not originate from social media but from the offical Northern Tuli Predator Project website.

*This image is copyright of its original author

Quote:Many of us here take social media comments or post seriously only when they come from an official account from a reputable entity.

You realise that Andrei Snyman is a researcher and collared the leopards himself right? How is he not 'a reputable entity'? Just because we lack the sample size doesn't mean the data is unreliable.

Reading comprehension is essential, he posted on a public platform where others have the option to engage with each other (i.e. a social media). I know exactly who he is and thus my point stands, after all, it was you and your crew who tried their hardest to undermine the opinions of different biologists and experts who tracked and weighed jaguars when it was posted on social media because you can't seem to let go of the idea that jaguars are bigger than what you wish them to be, so you have two options:

1. Either accept all the claims made by social media by reputable entities or,
2. Dismiss his claims altogether since it doesn't come from any publicized paper and it too was shared of a public forum.

Furthermore, since there is no sample size we cannot deduct that the average is accurate for that leopard population because small sample sizes can yield high averages when only heavy specimens are included, such as the case for cougars in Torres del Paine who averaged 76 kg with a sample size of 4 animals, but I'm sure you won't dispute that would you? Reply

[Luipaard]

(02-11-2021, 10:51 PM)Balam Wrote:

(02-11-2021, 10:40 PM)Luipaard Wrote:

(02-11-2021, 09:21 PM)Balam Wrote: The average given in post #169 doesn't give us a range or a sample size to deduct its accuracy, also that average was given in a social media comment, and as I remember correctly the same people using that as an average for a leopard population are the same ones trying to delegitimize weights provided by biologists and scientific organizations for other felids through social media means when it suits them.

 His comment was in response to someone else and does not originate from social media but from the offical Northern Tuli Predator Project website.

*This image is copyright of its original author

Quote:Many of us here take social media comments or post seriously only when they come from an official account from a reputable entity.

You realise that Andrei Snyman is a researcher and collared the leopards himself right? How is he not 'a reputable entity'? Just because we lack the sample size doesn't mean the data is unreliable.

Reading comprehension is essential, he posted on a public platform where others have the option to engage with each other (i.e. a social media). I know exactly who he is and thus my point stands, after all, it was you and your crew who tried their hardest to undermine the opinions of different biologists and experts who tracked and weighed jaguars when it was posted on social media because you can't seem to let go of the idea that jaguars are bigger than what you wish them to be, so you have two options:

1. Either accept all the claims made by social media by reputable entities or,
2. Dismiss his claims altogether since it doesn't come from any publicized paper and it too was shared of a public forum.

Furthermore, since there is no sample size we cannot deduct that the average is accurate for that leopard population because small sample sizes can yield high averages when only heavy specimens are included, such as the case for cougars in Torres del Paine who averaged 76 kg with a sample size of 4 animals, but I'm sure you won't dispute that would you?

There's no such thing as a crew so you can leave that behind. I rechecked Snyman's original post and I found the sample size (n=3) so there's that:

*This image is copyright of its original author

Reply

[Balam]

(02-11-2021, 11:20 PM)Luipaard Wrote:

(02-11-2021, 10:51 PM)Balam Wrote:

(02-11-2021, 10:40 PM)Luipaard Wrote:

(02-11-2021, 09:21 PM)Balam Wrote: The average given in post #169 doesn't give us a range or a sample size to deduct its accuracy, also that average was given in a social media comment, and as I remember correctly the same people using that as an average for a leopard population are the same ones trying to delegitimize weights provided by biologists and scientific organizations for other felids through social media means when it suits them.

 His comment was in response to someone else and does not originate from social media but from the offical Northern Tuli Predator Project website.

*This image is copyright of its original author

Quote:Many of us here take social media comments or post seriously only when they come from an official account from a reputable entity.

You realise that Andrei Snyman is a researcher and collared the leopards himself right? How is he not 'a reputable entity'? Just because we lack the sample size doesn't mean the data is unreliable.

Reading comprehension is essential, he posted on a public platform where others have the option to engage with each other (i.e. a social media). I know exactly who he is and thus my point stands, after all, it was you and your crew who tried their hardest to undermine the opinions of different biologists and experts who tracked and weighed jaguars when it was posted on social media because you can't seem to let go of the idea that jaguars are bigger than what you wish them to be, so you have two options:

1. Either accept all the claims made by social media by reputable entities or,
2. Dismiss his claims altogether since it doesn't come from any publicized paper and it too was shared of a public forum.

Furthermore, since there is no sample size we cannot deduct that the average is accurate for that leopard population because small sample sizes can yield high averages when only heavy specimens are included, such as the case for cougars in Torres del Paine who averaged 76 kg with a sample size of 4 animals, but I'm sure you won't dispute that would you?

There's no such thing as a crew so you can leave that behind. I rechecked Snyman's original post and I found the sample size (n=3) so there's that:

*This image is copyright of its original author

So as expected it's a small sample size similar to that of the cougars from Torres del Paine, nonetheless, the weights are not mentioned in that excerpt but I have no problem believing them since I know how to differentiate between social media comments being made by authorities in the subject and random commentators, standard which is applied for jaguar biologists as well. Reply

[AndresVida]

Yea I'm perfectly aware of how to measure the shoulder height but please can you tell me what the abbreviation HBL means? English is not my mother language so I don't understand it's meaning ?
Thanks for the length estimation, can you also estimate the shoulder heigh of the 103 kg leopard? I think up to 80+ cm
By the way, as sources for shoulder heights in my comparisons below

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

I used for leopard’s max height (86 cm) a post in this exact thread, you know this site better than me. Bottom of the second page (note how my battery is dying xd)

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

But that's the maximum height recorded, the average is from 66 to 80 cm
And for jaguars’ max height 90 cm I used what Wikipedia claims

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

But as I say in the comparison, jaguars normally range 55–81 cm for females and males.
Do you think I should post a size comparison of Polar bear vs Kodiak bear in Bear Size ~ thread? I want to share my “works”. Reply

[Pckts]

(02-11-2021, 11:29 PM)LoveAnimals Wrote: Yea I'm perfectly aware of how to measure the shoulder height but please can you tell me what the abbreviation HBL means? English is not my mother language so I don't understand it's meaning ?
Thanks for the length estimation, can you also estimate the shoulder heigh of the 103 kg leopard? I think up to 80+ cm
By the way, as sources for shoulder heights in my comparisons below

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

I used for leopard’s max height (86 cm) a post in this exact thread, you know this site better than me. Bottom of the second page (note how my battery is dying xd)

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

But that's the maximum height recorded, the average is from 66 to 80 cm
And for jaguars’ max height 90 cm I used what Wikipedia claims

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

But as I say in the comparison, jaguars normally range 55–81 cm for females and males.
Do you think I should post a size comparison of Polar bear vs Kodiak bear in Bear Size ~ thread? I want to share my “works”.

HBL= Head, Body length.
TBL = Total Body length *tail included*

I’ll take a look next week and get back to you when I have more time.

There is also a Bear size thread if you search it, it should pop up.
Anything Bear related would fit best there. Reply

[AndresVida]

Thanks! I will post there. Reply

[AndresVida]

Idk how long this image was taken to be honest but here we are

Sorry again for the disturbing images, I hope this barbarian act called trophy hunting will end soon

89 kg (196 lb) beast, don't know the location 

*This image is copyright of its original author

Reply

[AndresVida]

A question, most images and weighs here talk about big males ranging from 76-87 kgs with records of 92+ and 100+ kg male leopards but seems like females are forgotten.
Wasn't the max weight for females around 60 kgs? Why can't I find  any records of female leopards being above 46 kgs actually? Is everyone interested just in weighing big males? Reply

[Luipaard]

(02-13-2021, 05:52 AM)LoveAnimals Wrote: A question, most images and weighs here talk about big males ranging from 76-87 kgs with records of 92+ and 100+ kg male leopards but seems like females are forgotten.
Wasn't the max weight for females around 60 kgs? Why can't I find  any records of female leopards being above 46 kgs actually? Is everyone interested just in weighing big males?

Male leopards vary more in weight than females because of sexual dimorphism. Adult females weigh 25kg-60kg no matter the subspecies but this is not the case for males. An example are leopards in Kenya; males from Tsavo National Park weighing 70kg were considered big whereas in the Kenyan highlands they would be mediocre-sized:

*This image is copyright of its original author

Here's a chart of Persian leopard body weights including 6 adult females. There are at least 2 females weighing 60kg or more.

*This image is copyright of its original author

Reply