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Lions of Manyeleti
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 (02-05-2023, 11:52 PM)Mdz123 Wrote: So this means that although the 2 oldest had taken over the Avoca pride, they recognized their brothers and accepted them into the coalition? This would be a rare case where family had something to play in lion society. Circumstances how this happened are not exactly clear. It might be that 2 older males where not territorial for long time alone before their younger brothers joined, so they still had bond/connections with their younger brothers to accept them. 
@criollo2mil We have to remember that the Birmingham pride at this time lacked a dominant male and the females were seen with many different coalitions including Rockfig and his young partner, Northern Matimbas, giraffe males, and even the last Old Birmingham who was still seen with the pride. That person did a fantastic job finding Scorro with the cubs, but it would be difficult to prove Scorro was the only male with those females.
Even Tintswalo says Red Road could be a Matimba offspring, and of course I don’t put much weight on what Tintswalo thinks because they’re just speculating, but it shows how the Birmingham pride were seen with many coalitions at that time. (02-05-2023, 11:53 PM)criollo2mil Wrote: Since this debate has been going on, and since I never have seen a more compelling argument than the following, let me provide the evidence I go with that convinces me that Skorro sired the Red Road Male. This evidence is from research put together by Facebook user: Ruiting Zhong. He not only provides photographic evidence, he provides links to the original photos which confirm the dates and if you know the historical circumstances, it would provide a much much compelling argument that Skorros sired him and not the Avoca/Girrafe. If there is compelling evidence ‘other than passed down hearsay’ that it was otherwise the Avoca/Girrafe, please please share, and I’m absolutely open to studying it. There is no doubt that Skorro males hang with RRM and his mothers/siblings at that time, photos confirm this. Problem is there is no exact evidence that they actually did sire them, as young males, they might just hang with them without harming the cubs, or females might mate with both them and Avoca/Giraffes, even with Northern Matimbas. It makes sense that Avoca/Giraffes didn't sire them, as shortly after these sightings, 2 females with remaining offspring (1 sub male and 2 sub females) run towards Manyeleti and become nomadic Red Road Pride. So it looks like they run away from Avoca/Giraffes who took over Ngala, if those cubs where theirs, it doesn't make sense for 2 females to run away from Ngala and Avoca/Giraffes. But as i said, we cant prove it. (02-06-2023, 12:16 AM)SMK350 Wrote: @criollo2mil We have to remember that the Birmingham pride at this time lacked a dominant male and the females were seen with many different coalitions including Rockfig and his young partner, Northern Matimbas, giraffe males, and even the last Old Birmingham who was still seen with the pride. That person did a fantastic job finding Scorro with the cubs, but it would be difficult to prove Scorro was the only male with those females. Yea thats my point, we will prob never know who exactly sired RRM, as many coalitions/males hang around Ngala at that time, females might mated with multiple males, just look at Ximhungwe/Gingerella now, they where/are mating with 3 different males coalitions. Unless we get some more info what was happening at Ngala and Birmingham pride in 2013/14.  (02-05-2023, 11:53 PM)criollo2mil Wrote:(02-05-2023, 07:38 PM)Mdz123 Wrote: Red Road male was fathered by the 7 old Avoca/Giraffe males. He is dominating alone since there is no large coalition close to him. His neighbors are all lone males apart from Tintswalos. So, as recent as 8 years ago, the Birmingham Pride was just two lionesses and 6 cubs, some of which were obviously male? My how that pride grew in such a short period.  (02-06-2023, 12:42 AM)BA0701 Wrote:(02-05-2023, 11:53 PM)criollo2mil Wrote:(02-05-2023, 07:38 PM)Mdz123 Wrote: Red Road male was fathered by the 7 old Avoca/Giraffe males. He is dominating alone since there is no large coalition close to him. His neighbors are all lone males apart from Tintswalos. There were at least 3 lionesses in 2014, this sighting just happened to have two of them. I have some other pics of the Birminghams in 2014, I will post them in that thread (02-06-2023, 12:42 AM)BA0701 Wrote: So, as recent as 8 years ago, the Birmingham Pride was just two lionesses and 6 cubs, some of which were obviously male? My how that pride grew in such a short period. No, pride was spliting at that time, not all females from Birmingham pride left Ngala, those who stayed become today's Birmingham breakaway pride, lead by famous Stompie female. As we said, times in between 2013-2016 are quite unclear what was going on in Ngala and Birmingham pride. (02-06-2023, 12:23 AM)Tr1x24 Wrote:(02-06-2023, 12:16 AM)SMK350 Wrote: @criollo2mil We have to remember that the Birmingham pride at this time lacked a dominant male and the females were seen with many different coalitions including Rockfig and his young partner, Northern Matimbas, giraffe males, and even the last Old Birmingham who was still seen with the pride. That person did a fantastic job finding Scorro with the cubs, but it would be difficult to prove Scorro was the only male with those females. Yes, that is always going to bring some doubt. The whole ‘without dna’ thing of course. But as I stated, this is compelling to me. NO photographic evidence exists placing the Avoca/Girrafe w the pride in the time period that makes them plausible fathers….it’s only hearsay. And like you said earlier, why did the females then leave fleeing those very same males to protect their offspring? Run away from their fathers? Doesn’t make sense. (02-06-2023, 12:16 AM)SMK350 Wrote: @criollo2mil We have to remember that the Birmingham pride at this time lacked a dominant male and the females were seen with many different coalitions including Rockfig and his young partner, Northern Matimbas, giraffe males, and even the last Old Birmingham who was still seen with the pride. That person did a fantastic job finding Scorro with the cubs, but it would be difficult to prove Scorro was the only male with those females. He’s the only male we have ‘DEFINITIVE’ evidence they felt comfortable enough to have him with their cubs. That ISNT the case WRT anY Other males. They actually FLED from the Avoca/Girrafe. That’s how the Red Road pride was formed. Again, I’ve only stated what has been to me, the MOST compelling argument….it’s up to those that feel differently to present their proof/beliefs. (02-06-2023, 12:47 AM)criollo2mil Wrote:(02-06-2023, 12:42 AM)BA0701 Wrote:(02-05-2023, 11:53 PM)criollo2mil Wrote:(02-05-2023, 07:38 PM)Mdz123 Wrote: Red Road male was fathered by the 7 old Avoca/Giraffe males. He is dominating alone since there is no large coalition close to him. His neighbors are all lone males apart from Tintswalos. Ah, ok, thank you for that. I'll look forward to seeing them.
@criollo2mil yea but even if we rule out Avoca/Giraffes, how we know that those cubs are not N.Matimbas?
Matimbas where dominant force in most of Ngala since 2013 to 2016, they had interactions with Birmingham pride (their natal pride) and apperantly even ousted young Bboys and their Nharu sisters, although based of reports, they never fully control Birmingham pride, that doesnt mean they didnt mate with some females. As I said, too little info from Ngala in that period. (02-06-2023, 12:51 AM)Tr1x24 Wrote:(02-06-2023, 12:42 AM)BA0701 Wrote: So, as recent as 8 years ago, the Birmingham Pride was just two lionesses and 6 cubs, some of which were obviously male? My how that pride grew in such a short period. Ok, that makes sense, the lions who remained in their original territory became the breakaway pride we know of today.
I want to point out females will flee from even the fathers of their cubs if they had no interactions with those fathers in over a year. Similar the how the Styx pride flees from the Ndzengas. Every male I listed was seen with the Birminghams and that’s why I mentioned them. I’ll go crazy if I try to dig up those obscure sighting but I have definitely seen all those males with the Birminghams. That’s why I didn’t include random coalitions like the young Skybeds because they too were in Ngala but not with the Birmingham pride.
But yeah all we can do is speculate. (02-06-2023, 01:10 AM)Tr1x24 Wrote: @criollo2mil yea but even if we rule out Avoca/Giraffes, how we know that those cubs are not N.Matimbas? Nothing can be ruled out of course. It’s why I always say it’s ‘compelling evidence’ and it’s been enough for me to say Skorro versus any others. I mean, theses pages are littered with ‘guesses’ about who fathered this and that, and that’s always just that…..guesses right? Other than single males that mate and it’s definitive that the lionesses didn’t mate with any other lion is going to always be estimated guesses. But it’s strange that all the people who this otherwise, don’t ever really provide any evidence to support otherwise. This isn’t directed at anyone…..I actually welcome and would love to see more research. I would love to learn more. (02-06-2023, 02:05 AM)SMK350 Wrote: I want to point out females will flee from even the fathers of their cubs if they had no interactions with those fathers in over a year. Similar the how the Styx pride flees from the Ndzengas. Every male I listed was seen with the Birminghams and that’s why I mentioned them. I’ll go crazy if I try to dig up those obscure sighting but I have definitely seen all those males with the Birminghams. That’s why I didn’t include random coalitions like the young Skybeds because they too were in Ngala but not with the Birmingham pride. No, I understand it’s not practical to find all the eaches and dig up that stuff. I myself have a very very poor cataloguing protocol and while I’ve seen and have kept a lot of events and photos, I probably would struggle mightily to find anything on demand. Lol. |
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