There is a world somewhere between reality and fiction. Although ignored by many, it is very real and so are those living in it. This forum is about the natural world. Here, wild animals will be heard and respected. The forum offers a glimpse into an unknown world as well as a room with a view on the present and the future. Anyone able to speak on behalf of those living in the emerald forest and the deep blue sea is invited to join.
(10-17-2021, 11:14 PM)Duco Ndona Wrote: Lions have a good memory regarding this sort of stuff. They are not going to mistake identities like that. Especially not from such a close distance.
If RRM come to them full roaring and scent marking, their reaction would be different, but he is visiable scared/weak, and females sense that..
This is similar situation to Scar Tumbela and Othawa pride.
So as i said, RRM needs to prove to Nharus that he is still dominant force in their area, he needs to roar, scent mark, and dominate those females, otherwise he will become nomad.
Lions have extremly well sense/feel for power/strenght, you might not be the biggest male around, but if you have confidence/power
Exactly! I viewed some of DM's recent videos right after the recent RRM video...and DM's baseline limp on any given day can be bad as RRM's current disability is. Its not necessarily about the injury, its how you feel you can control and dominate an area. If RRM lacks self-confidence - that well may be the reason for the reaction by the Nharu's. I hope he can survive without the Nharu's for a little while if he has to, and come back stronger. He deserves to be around his cubs.
First of all, Welcome to the forum @silly girl. Hope you enjoy of WildFact much as we do. If you ever has a question, Feel free to message to myself or to the Wildfact team
The right leg of the Red road male looks atrophied in my personal opinion. It's quite concerning, since it could be permanent limp (I hope all the otherwise and it is just a slight limp which long a couple of weeks/months) I hope he recover the mass in his leg soon. Lions are resilient animals. So, the RRM could survived pretty well without the Nharu pride. As long as his back leg don't affect him. A lot of lions survived despite being nomad. For example, Jesse from Maasai Mara. He's quite famous for being a nomad male despite being a big and healthy male. I'm sure he'll thrive. A big and healthy male overall, very wise as well
(10-14-2021, 06:21 PM)lionuk Wrote: Latest update from Tintswalo Safari Lodge:
A word from Alistair...
So please understand that we do care about Red Road. Please be patient with us as we collect more video footage for you and we will definitely keep you updated as soon as we have any more information for you. The only time we would ever intervene with an injured animal is if this injury was caused as a result of any human interaction. We cannot interfere with what nature has written for the animals of our incredible reserve. This is up to her and not us.
I remember Tristan had to make a similar statement when Maribye's had his puff adder bite.
I completely understand their position in not "interfering" with nature, but I also understand and see where the social media concerns arise from. These lodges/enterprises no doubt profit heavily from RRM and all their lions, they goto the effort to name them (which like it or not, does engender more sentimental bonding from the general public), highlight them in videos by name, and they know people come to their lodge to see those "XYZ" lions, so some people logically expect in return for "interfering" with their lives by tracking, viewing, and videotaping them as well as making profit off them, some medical or other care can be done for these animals when when they are injured, lost etc.
There is also the dichotomy which many know about in regards to "conservation": for example the very same week the Vet Joel had removed the snare from RRM because it was "man-made", he had been videotaped injecting (darting) several Manyeleti lionesses with birth control. So to many, although the actions done for conservation, limiting lion populations because of limited resources, its a "human interference" - if you can inject some lionesses with birth control why not give RRM a shot of antibiotic for the abscess or painkiller to improve his quality of life?
And then there is the comparison with the Massai Mara, also making money off of their iconic lions, who go through great efforts to interfere. How many dozens of surgeries did Scarface go through on his eye over the years? And they recently surgically saved one of the males in the Black Rock Male coalition there, who had a serious femoral injury from a territorial fight with another male almost identical to what the Styx male just died from (presumed by the Mhangeni's). If they do it they do it in Kenya, why not S. Africa?
I'm not one to be harassing the rangers or guides, I enjoy their videos as much as anyone. I just wanted to help explain why there are sometimes are these comments, concerns, or "expectations to help" when a "star" (named) animal is injured.
Anyway, I'm very glad to see RRM is doing so much better than we all predicted given the prior statements made without any interference!
I understand you, And I also appreciate the all the information provided in this post. So, It's a good point
In my personal opinion, I agree with don't interfere in the Wildlife, If you help a lion, you're prejudicing to a other lion. For example, mostly of the Maasai Mara prides have a same dominant male or coalition for years and years, even a decades. So, Some of the Maasai mara prides, if not the majority of them, have inbreeding. A ,,poor" gene pool. And not good for the reserve by the same way. For example, the Tintswalo males are mating with their mothers/aunties and even sisters. The Mbiri pride will be a pride who will carry inbreeding in a future if the Tintswalo males they don't move and took-over another pride as the Nharu pride, for example.
(10-18-2021, 05:37 AM)1999gc8 Wrote: Wasn't there a post that mentioned that the RRM was seen with the pride eating a kill not long after incident with the Tintswalo boys? I'm not sure what is accurate or not now with the recent video indicating RRM has been rejected from the pride.
As far I'm aware. I haven't heard about it. In fact, I shared this update by first hand on 26th September 2021:
15 members of the Nharu pride were seen feeding of a baby elephant. No sings of the RRM yet
Two of the Tintswalo males ,,Ncila and Lambile" called close to Koppies area far from RRM area and where we found Mande
(10-18-2021, 05:07 AM)silly girl Wrote: remember Tristan had to make a similar statement when Maribye's had his puff adder bite.
I completely understand their position in not "interfering" with nature, but I also understand and see where the social media concerns arise from. These lodges/enterprises no doubt profit heavily from RRM and all their lions, they goto the effort to name them (which like it or not, does engender more sentimental bonding from the general public), highlight them in videos by name, and they know people come to their lodge to see those "XYZ" lions, so some people logically expect in return for "interfering" with their lives by tracking, viewing, and videotaping them as well as making profit off them, some medical or other care can be done for these animals when when they are injured, lost etc.
There is also the dichotomy which many know about in regards to "conservation": for example the very same week the Vet Joel had removed the snare from RRM because it was "man-made", he had been videotaped injecting (darting) several Manyeleti lionesses with birth control. So to many, although the actions done for conservation, limiting lion populations because of limited resources, its a "human interference" - if you can inject some lionesses with birth control why not give RRM a shot of antibiotic for the abscess or painkiller to improve his quality of life?
And then there is the comparison with the Massai Mara, also making money off of their iconic lions, who go through great efforts to interfere. How many dozens of surgeries did Scarface go through on his eye over the years? And they recently surgically saved one of the males in the Black Rock Male coalition there, who had a serious femoral injury from a territorial fight with another male almost identical to what the Styx male just died from (presumed by the Mhangeni's). If they do it they do it in Kenya, why not S. Africa?
I'm not one to be harassing the rangers or guides, I enjoy their videos as much as anyone. I just wanted to help explain why there are sometimes are these comments, concerns, or "expectations to help" when a "star" (named) animal is injured.
Anyway, I'm very glad to see RRM is doing so much better than we all predicted given the prior statements made without any interference!
*This image is copyright of its original author
"Mike Maika...
Black Rock male lion was badly injured by Jessy a few days ago and the wound above the eye is not healing anytime soon, #@ Mobile vet unit, kindly visit him."
I have to agree against intervention policies unless the entire population is at threat or suffering as a result of human activities.
Lions in Sabi Sands typically are neither.
Infact their numbers in the reserve are of such health that birth control is issued to tamper their growth. (As the borders at the reserve prevent the natural dispersal of lions. Not doing so would result in a man made overpopulation).
When you help one animal. This always is at the cost of another. Afteral, that animal has to eat and take up a territory to prosper.
Especially in the case of male lions which are pretty expendable. They pretty much live in a perpetual state of hunger games its not fair to save their lives. As the natural decline of one male gives another one the chance to take over and father their cubs which naturally prevents inbreeding.
An abundance of male lions also would put far more stress on the prides and increase predation on Cheetahs, leopards and other animals.
If they keep nursing them back to health after each mishap that they naturally shouldn't survive. At one point, the culling of excess lions will be necessary to restore balance to the reserve.
There is also the question of public pressure. The reserves receive quite a degree of harassment from social media to intervene to save their favorite lions. But naturally this decision should not be based on that.
Plenty of animals don't have the popularity lions have. It cant be the case that who lives and who dies is determined by which animal got exposure in a positive light by Disney or crappy documentaries.
Ultimately, its also a waste of time. The money is far better spend in buying land to increase the size of the reserves or anti poaching measures etc. Which all animals benefit from instead of just a few.
10-18-2021, 07:41 PM( This post was last modified: 10-18-2021, 07:41 PM by BA0701 )
(10-18-2021, 01:56 PM)Duco Ndona Wrote: I have to agree against intervention policies unless the entire population is at threat or suffering as a result of human activities.
Lions in Sabi Sands typically are neither.
Infact their numbers in the reserve are of such health that birth control is issued to tamper their growth. (As the borders at the reserve prevent the natural dispersal of lions. Not doing so would result in a man made overpopulation).
When you help one animal. This always is at the cost of another. Afteral, that animal has to eat and take up a territory to prosper.
Especially in the case of male lions which are pretty expendable. They pretty much live in a perpetual state of hunger games its not fair to save their lives. As the natural decline of one male gives another one the chance to take over and father their cubs which naturally prevents inbreeding.
An abundance of male lions also would put far more stress on the prides and increase predation on Cheetahs, leopards and other animals.
If they keep nursing them back to health after each mishap that they naturally shouldn't survive. At one point, the culling of excess lions will be necessary to restore balance to the reserve.
There is also the question of public pressure. The reserves receive quite a degree of harassment from social media to intervene to save their favorite lions. But naturally this decision should not be based on that.
Plenty of animals don't have the popularity lions have. It cant be the case that who lives and who dies is determined by which animal got exposure in a positive light by Disney or crappy documentaries.
Ultimately, its also a waste of time. The money is far better spend in buying land to increase the size of the reserves or anti poaching measures etc. Which all animals benefit from instead of just a few.
Anyway. That was my little rant on the issue.
While I have, for unknown reasons, become a bleeding heart on the issue, and personally agree with intervention, I entirely get your points, which are entirely valid.
I don't know what the right choice is, I just know how I feel. I would never judge or attempt to disparage someone for believing as you do, because, quite frankly, of their validity, and it very well might be the correct choice, when considering the species above the individual. The only point I would argue is that the Mara lion populations appear to be fairing very well, and they infact practice veterinary intervention.
10-18-2021, 10:13 PM( This post was last modified: 10-18-2021, 10:19 PM by RookiePundit )
(10-18-2021, 05:07 AM)silly girl Wrote:
(10-14-2021, 06:21 PM)lionuk Wrote: Latest update from Tintswalo Safari Lodge:
A word from Alistair...
So please understand that we do care about Red Road. Please be patient with us as we collect more video footage for you and we will definitely keep you updated as soon as we have any more information for you. The only time we would ever intervene with an injured animal is if this injury was caused as a result of any human interaction. We cannot interfere with what nature has written for the animals of our incredible reserve. This is up to her and not us.
I remember Tristan had to make a similar statement when Maribye's had his puff adder bite.
I completely understand their position in not "interfering" with nature, but I also understand and see where the social media concerns arise from. These lodges/enterprises no doubt profit heavily from RRM and all their lions, they goto the effort to name them (which like it or not, does engender more sentimental bonding from the general public), highlight them in videos by name, and they know people come to their lodge to see those "XYZ" lions, so some people logically expect in return for "interfering" with their lives by tracking, viewing, and videotaping them as well as making profit off them, some medical or other care can be done for these animals when when they are injured, lost etc.
There is also the dichotomy which many know about in regards to "conservation": for example the very same week the Vet Joel had removed the snare from RRM because it was "man-made", he had been videotaped injecting (darting) several Manyeleti lionesses with birth control. So to many, although the actions done for conservation, limiting lion populations because of limited resources, its a "human interference" - if you can inject some lionesses with birth control why not give RRM a shot of antibiotic for the abscess or painkiller to improve his quality of life?
And then there is the comparison with the Massai Mara, also making money off of their iconic lions, who go through great efforts to interfere. How many dozens of surgeries did Scarface go through on his eye over the years? And they recently surgically saved one of the males in the Black Rock Male coalition there, who had a serious femoral injury from a territorial fight with another male almost identical to what the Styx male just died from (presumed by the Mhangeni's). If they do it they do it in Kenya, why not S. Africa?
I'm not one to be harassing the rangers or guides, I enjoy their videos as much as anyone. I just wanted to help explain why there are sometimes are these comments, concerns, or "expectations to help" when a "star" (named) animal is injured.
Anyway, I'm very glad to see RRM is doing so much better than we all predicted given the prior statements made without any interference!
Contraception as birth control (while I don't see the reason why they did it in Manyeleti, other than perhaps concerns for inbred genetic pool, I don't recall the details) is bit different animal than artificially prologing a particular animal's longevity and competitiveness. Masai Mara does it wrong, they treat particular males to make them more epic and marketable and unique while putting new generation(s) of nomadic males in disadvantages. For profit. They alos have widespread problem with too many cars flocking too a big 5 sightings to the extent of altering animal behaviour (afaik).
Any individual animal can infuence intraspecific dynamics, but also interspecific. If we were to interfere and treat injured or weak antelope species we are influencing abundance of prey. Even dying carnivore is its body worth of nutrient important for the ecosystem. If there is no need to interference due to ivory, horns etc, carcass is a carcass and preferably should not be interefer with.
There is a practical point as well - if tranquilize animals for treatment quite regularly, they won't be that habituated and start to avoid rangers' cars damaging the safari industry in the process. Man cause issues and potential disease outbreaks are a different thing, but putting individual animals out of their misery while toughr to witness is not a sound approach becasue you blur lines. We can argue that man affaceting the compositon of the landscape, like dam and waterholes influences the environment making it more suitable for some species and less for others (competition) or artificially changing density of particular species as a side effect, that is ofc true, but as for Sabi Sands etc. landscape was already altered as former farmland so there is no clear right way anyway. And then they are justifiable cases of critically endangered or otherwise (locally) specific species where every individual/group is important and espacially in case of naturally solitary species with already low density, the impact on others is minimal, intraspecific for sure and interspecific void from a missing predator would be filled by another, perhasp more abundant species over time anyway.
Give me South African approach any time.
Edit: I wanted to say contraception is, besides inbreeding, a population number management not an intervention for the sake of an individual animals, unlike others mentioned above.
(10-18-2021, 01:56 PM)Duco Ndona Wrote: I have to agree against intervention policies unless the entire population is at threat or suffering as a result of human activities.
Lions in Sabi Sands typically are neither.
Infact their numbers in the reserve are of such health that birth control is issued to tamper their growth. (As the borders at the reserve prevent the natural dispersal of lions. Not doing so would result in a man made overpopulation).
When you help one animal. This always is at the cost of another. Afteral, that animal has to eat and take up a territory to prosper.
Especially in the case of male lions which are pretty expendable. They pretty much live in a perpetual state of hunger games its not fair to save their lives. As the natural decline of one male gives another one the chance to take over and father their cubs which naturally prevents inbreeding.
An abundance of male lions also would put far more stress on the prides and increase predation on Cheetahs, leopards and other animals.
If they keep nursing them back to health after each mishap that they naturally shouldn't survive. At one point, the culling of excess lions will be necessary to restore balance to the reserve.
There is also the question of public pressure. The reserves receive quite a degree of harassment from social media to intervene to save their favorite lions. But naturally this decision should not be based on that.
Plenty of animals don't have the popularity lions have. It cant be the case that who lives and who dies is determined by which animal got exposure in a positive light by Disney or crappy documentaries.
Ultimately, its also a waste of time. The money is far better spend in buying land to increase the size of the reserves or anti poaching measures etc. Which all animals benefit from instead of just a few.
Anyway. That was my little rant on the issue.
While I have, for unknown reasons, become a bleeding heart on the issue, and personally agree with intervention, I entirely get your points, which are entirely valid.
I don't know what the right choice is, I just know how I feel. I would never judge or attempt to disparage someone for believing as you do, because, quite frankly, of their validity, and it very well might be the correct choice, when considering the species above the individual. The only point I would argue is that the Mara lion populations appear to be fairing very well, and they infact practice veterinary intervention.
It is very nice that they practice veterinary intervention. In my personal point of view with very limited knowledge, I agree that before, during and after territorial battles should not be any human intervention due to changes in lions history.
However, in any other cases where there is a good probability of survival, maybe it is ok to give them a little help here and there but without changing their history. I might be wrong anyways. Greetings!
10-21-2021, 04:32 AM( This post was last modified: 10-21-2021, 04:09 PM by T I N O )
(10-21-2021, 02:02 AM)Timbavati Wrote: A Manyeleti UPDATE!
A sighting from yesterday of the Imbali male and the Talamati pride together in Manyeleti
Photo credits: Marion Büchler
