Lion and Tiger Fight Interaction in Zoo, Circus or Any Other Captive Places

[Spalea]

(10-09-2019, 07:20 PM)Pckts Wrote:

(10-09-2019, 07:13 PM)Spalea Wrote: @Pckts :

About #104:

The lion "Cheongi" was 5 years old and weighed 110 kilos.
The tigress "Hobi" was 6 years old and weighed 90 kilos.

Perhaps being captive they were still subadult, but I don't think so and  in wild they would be in their best period of vigour, power. So yes, I repeat they might be underfed, both could easily weigh 40 kilos more (without being 220 kilos monsters as you told).

You cannot compare captive to wild, Wild cats have the best genetics possible and are forced to grow fast or die while captive cats have no need to live by the law of survival of the fittest. Even in the wild you have adult lions and Tigers who have been under 90kg and under 160kg respectively and they were prime aged.
Also, they're both still around 2 years away from their primes in the wild.

OK, I don't want to be disagree with you... Even if it doesn't seem like many as being captive lion's ant tigress's weight.

I remind having watched and drawn a young male lion already weighing 200 kilos (according to the keepers) when he was 5 years old at a zoo from Paris. OK Paris is under temperate climate and the meals (horse flesh) rich in protein... Perhaps you would have qualified this lion as a monster, . He was very unruly, turbulent. Reply

[Pckts]

(10-09-2019, 07:42 PM)Spalea Wrote:

(10-09-2019, 07:20 PM)Pckts Wrote:

(10-09-2019, 07:13 PM)Spalea Wrote: @Pckts :

About #104:

The lion "Cheongi" was 5 years old and weighed 110 kilos.
The tigress "Hobi" was 6 years old and weighed 90 kilos.

Perhaps being captive they were still subadult, but I don't think so and  in wild they would be in their best period of vigour, power. So yes, I repeat they might be underfed, both could easily weigh 40 kilos more (without being 220 kilos monsters as you told).

You cannot compare captive to wild, Wild cats have the best genetics possible and are forced to grow fast or die while captive cats have no need to live by the law of survival of the fittest. Even in the wild you have adult lions and Tigers who have been under 90kg and under 160kg respectively and they were prime aged.
Also, they're both still around 2 years away from their primes in the wild.

OK, I don't want to be disagree with you... Even if it doesn't seem like many as being captive lion's ant tigress's weight.

I remind having watched and drawn a young male lion already weighing 200 kilos (according to the keepers) when he was 5 years old at a zoo from Paris. OK Paris is under temperate climate and the meals (horse flesh) rich in protein... Perhaps you would have qualified this lion as a monster, . He was very unruly, turbulent.

Humans males can be 5'3" 100lbs all the way to 7'6" 500lbs, like us animals can run a wide range.
In the wild, the biggest, strongest cats usually pass their Genes on, in captivity that isn't the case.

It could also be that those weights are simply an estimate as well, we've seen numerous misquoted weights from zoo employees in the past. Reply

[Shadow]

(10-09-2019, 06:32 PM)Spalea Wrote: @Pckts @Spotted

Perhaps more precision on this link:

https://bigcatrescue.org/lion-kills-tiger-in-zoo/

" By Kim Rahn
Staff Reporter
If a lion and a tiger fight, which will win?
At a zoo in Jeonju, North Jeolla Province, a lion did.
A male lion killed a female tiger by biting her in the neck at Jeonju Zoo around 3:40 p.m. Wednesday.
The incident occurred when the five-year-old lion, named “Cheongi,” fell into a trench five meters below his yard, which segregates the pen from zoo visitors, while attempting to catch a chicken that a zookeeper had thrown to him.
Right after the lion’s falling, the tiger, six-year-old “Hobi,” who was in her pen next to Cheongi’s, jumped into the trench. “Hobi, excited while watching it, jumped down to the trench. She made a poor landing, then Cheongi attacked her, bit a fatal spot, and killed her,” the zookeeper said.
The lion and the tiger were similar in length, but the former was heavier by about 20 kilograms, weighing 110 kilograms. Hobi, a Siberian tiger, was moved to the zoo in 2006.
“It is rare that a tiger and a lion fight. The lion seems to have thought the tiger invaded his territory and attacked her,” the zookeeper said. He said that the outcome of fight between a lion and a tiger depends on which gets a head start and which is more aggressive, adding that neither animal is always superior to the other.
The zoo plans to donate the body of the tiger to Chonbuk National University. "

But 110 kilos for a male lion and 90 kilos for a tigress... Were these felids underfed ? I would believe it with ease.

That can be also error in translation. I doubt, that those weights are real. 90 kg would be very small tigress, but 110 kg for adult male lion is already more or less ridiculous. Reply

[Spotted]

This is another link telling about the same incident I initially posted. I do not know Korean but it seems that they say that the lion was not fully grown and the tiger was a male. They also say that the tiger died due to a paw strike by the lion in the neck area of the tiger: no blood or injuries in the tiger's throat, unlike in the case referred to by Pckts:

Reply

[GreenGrolar]

(10-09-2019, 08:07 PM)Pckts Wrote:

(10-09-2019, 07:42 PM)Spalea Wrote:

(10-09-2019, 07:20 PM)Pckts Wrote:

(10-09-2019, 07:13 PM)Spalea Wrote: @Pckts :

About #104:

The lion "Cheongi" was 5 years old and weighed 110 kilos.
The tigress "Hobi" was 6 years old and weighed 90 kilos.

Perhaps being captive they were still subadult, but I don't think so and  in wild they would be in their best period of vigour, power. So yes, I repeat they might be underfed, both could easily weigh 40 kilos more (without being 220 kilos monsters as you told).

You cannot compare captive to wild, Wild cats have the best genetics possible and are forced to grow fast or die while captive cats have no need to live by the law of survival of the fittest. Even in the wild you have adult lions and Tigers who have been under 90kg and under 160kg respectively and they were prime aged.
Also, they're both still around 2 years away from their primes in the wild.

OK, I don't want to be disagree with you... Even if it doesn't seem like many as being captive lion's ant tigress's weight.

I remind having watched and drawn a young male lion already weighing 200 kilos (according to the keepers) when he was 5 years old at a zoo from Paris. OK Paris is under temperate climate and the meals (horse flesh) rich in protein... Perhaps you would have qualified this lion as a monster, . He was very unruly, turbulent.

Humans males can be 5'3" 100lbs all the way to 7'6" 500lbs, like us animals can run a wide range.
In the wild, the biggest, strongest cats usually pass their Genes on, in captivity that isn't the case.

It could also be that those weights are simply an estimate as well, we've seen numerous misquoted weights from zoo employees in the past.

Personally, just as mankind have giants and dwafts among them, I believe that there are giants and dwafts among tigers and lions and other animals for the matter of fact. Reply

[Shadow]

If postings can´t be written civilized, then no point to post. @RakeshMondal it´s one thing to point out an error, another to start name calling. Not going to happen here. Reply

[sanjay]

One more interaction of famous Lion and Tiger.

Lion is protecting his girl Reply

[Apollo]

Male tiger and a lioness attacked a horse in a circus at China.

Reply

[Apollo]

Tiger and lion fight in a Russian circus

A tiger named Dieter attacked a lion named David at a Russian circus lead by animal trainer Edgard Zapashny. He stated that the tiger would have likely have killed the lion if they did not interfere. The tiger attacks the lion from the left, bringing him down to the ground. The trainers began throwing chairs at the tiger which aloud the lion to escape from his grip. The lion counter attacks but gets downed again by the tiger at which point the trainer fires a blank gun shot at the animals which causes them to separate.

Reply

[Spalea]

@Apollo :

At the page 6 of this topic this fight is widely and abundantly commented and discussed by @peter , @Shadow and so on... And your apparent conclusions aren't good. Reply

[Apollo]

(11-19-2019, 11:43 AM)Spalea Wrote: @Apollo :

At the page 6 of this topic this fight is widely and abundantly commented and discussed by @peter , @Shadow and so on... And your apparent conclusions aren't good.

Its not my conclusion.

42-year-old Edgard Zapashny, animal trainer and head of the circus with the big cats, said in a statement later on that the incident between the two animals was nothing to worry about and was like a fight between two men.

Dieter the tiger is reportedly known to frequently start fights and he had apprently decided that during the performance was the best time to show David who was the boss.
Edgard Zapashny said, "If he had got a serious grip on the lion's neck, then most likely he would have strangled him had we not got involved. The spectators were reportedly safe as they were protected from the ring with a special net that is capable of holding the weight of an adult big cat."



https://meaww.com/white-tiger-attacks-lion-zapashny-brothers-circus

https://pulptastic.com/tiger-vs-baby-lion/

https://www.tert.am/en/news/2018/07/27/tiger-attack/2752751

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5994863/Tiger-attacks-lion-performance-Russian-circus.html Reply

[Shadow]

(11-19-2019, 03:36 PM)Apollo Wrote:

(11-19-2019, 11:43 AM)Spalea Wrote: @Apollo :

At the page 6 of this topic this fight is widely and abundantly commented and discussed by @peter , @Shadow and so on... And your apparent conclusions aren't good.

Its not my conclusion.

42-year-old Edgard Zapashny, animal trainer and head of the circus with the big cats, said in a statement later on that the incident between the two animals was nothing to worry about and was like a fight between two men.

Dieter the tiger is reportedly known to frequently start fights and he had apprently decided that during the performance was the best time to show David who was the boss.
Edgard Zapashny said, "If he had got a serious grip on the lion's neck, then most likely he would have strangled him had we not got involved. The spectators were reportedly safe as they were protected from the ring with a special net that is capable of holding the weight of an adult big cat."



https://meaww.com/white-tiger-attacks-lion-zapashny-brothers-circus

https://pulptastic.com/tiger-vs-baby-lion/

https://www.tert.am/en/news/2018/07/27/tiger-attack/2752751

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5994863/Tiger-attacks-lion-performance-Russian-circus.html

This just show it clearly, what I said earlier. If we take 10 different persons, we get 10 different conclusions and "guesstimations" how that fight would have ended :) One can say, that "tiger failed in ambush attack on lion and was lucky because fight was stopped by trainers", another says "lion was lucky" etc. etc. In the end what happened was failed ambush attack by the tiger and it was all open when trainers finally were able to shoot with gun causing lion and tiger to lose focus from fight. Tiger was in better position, but it looked like lion would have just swiped it if trainer not shooting same time, so they might have been both up in a split second if not interfering. This is speculation of course as much as anything else what comes to possible outcome of this fight, which remains mystery, no matter how much different people speculate.

This might be good time to remind, what Zapashny brothers themselves wrote:

"My brother and I are constantly asked: how often do predators attack you?
Predators are much more likely to sort things out with each other than with us!
Today, Dieter (an adult and a dangerous tiger) decided to show the place to a still very young lion David and attacked him! This was David’s first fight in his life and he wasn’t ready, but after we managed to break them for the first time, David decided to punish the offender and went to the frontal!
For the first time in many years, my brother had to shoot with a BLANK shot at a performance and that only stopped the fight !!! "



Then what comes to that article, it´s good to remember that in articles it matters what reporter asks (and not asking) and what he then chooses to write. Also when looking at what is written, it can be seen in different ways.

42-year-old Edgard Zapashny, animal trainer and head of the circus with the big cats, said in a statement later on that the incident between the two animals was nothing to worry about and was like a fight between two men.

This is kind of funny: "nothing to worry about". So that can be seen, that no danger for either animals if wanted to see like that. Trainer is calm and confident, right... Same time on the video it can be seen, that trainer is at one point so nervous, that dropping gun and he needs to pick it up from ground before shooting... nothing to worry about? I think, that they were very nervous at that point because they might soon have had a dead lion or dead tiger or at least badly injured animal(s) if not able to separate them soon.

Dieter the tiger is reportedly known to frequently start fights and he had apprently decided that during the performance was the best time to show David who was the boss.

This is no-brainer, Obviously Dieter was the one making sneak attack.

Edgard Zapashny said, "If he had got a serious grip on the lion's neck, then most likely he would have strangled him had we not got involved. The spectators were reportedly safe as they were protected from the ring with a special net that is capable of holding the weight of an adult big cat."

This then again... if. If is a good word, if tiger gets a serious grip on lions neck, then most likely it strangles lion. And if lion gets serious grip on tigers neck, then most likely it strangles tiger. 
Since either cat didn´t get serious grip from each others before trainers were able to confuse them by shooting, we will never know.

I have learned long time ago, that newspaper articles have to be read remembering, that reporter has influence to the outcome of the article. What is asked and what not, does reporter have own issues concerning it, what is the topic.

When I look at it, what Zapashny brothers published themselves and that video, I don´t see justification for conclusion, that lion broke free from the grip of the tiger with some help. When they separated first time, it was after "wrestling" and lion simply was able to break free and push tiger away because tiger failed in that sneak attack and didn´t get good enough bite/hold. I don´t think, that they even noticed that thrown chair when they were on the ground. In second "wrestle" it was all open again when gun was shot. Very quick chain of actions and reactions.

In their own message concerning this matter Zapashny brothers say, that only shooting blank stopped the fight. No speculation there, like there is then a bit in later articles.

When commenting this incident it´s good for all to remember, that there can be many opinions and interpretations. For me this fight was unsolved and I have no idea which one might have defeated the other one if not separated. Lion was of course young and attack was surprising, but it seemed to understand immediately, that time to fight.

One more thing, in many articles there is said, that lion run away and tiger followed... Only problem is, that I don´t see lion trying to run away at any point on the video. I did see tiger running away a bit and lion following before second wrestle. I wonder what video those reporters were watching, obviously not the same ones I have seen concerning Dieter and David. Reporters are time to time really something. Reply

[Apollo]

Tiger vs Lion

Reply

[Spalea]

@Apollo :


About #118: The author of the video you showed is dishonest. This tiger and this lion have been living together for long time. With a small dog, see the video below.
Of course if we look at the paws, the tiger is very very probably stronger. But these felids are living together, they are captive animals, we don't know anything about their past. And the title of the video you posted is a fake. It isn't a fight, even not a skirmish of a fight. It doesn't prove anything.

Reply

[Shadow]

(12-17-2019, 07:33 PM)Spalea Wrote: @Apollo :


About #118: The author of the video you showed is dishonest. This tiger and this lion have been living together for long time. With a small dog, see the video below.
Of course if we look at the paws, the tiger is very very probably stronger. But these felids are living together, they are captive animals, we don't know anything about their past. And the title of the video you posted is a fake. It isn't a fight, even not a skirmish of a fight. It doesn't prove anything.

That is just a typical fanboy headline for a video showing some playing around. Many lion fanboys make similar kind of videos. Nice to see tiger and lion playing with no aggression though. Pity that this lion seems to have something wrong with hind legs, it moves in odd way. Maybe it has been rescued from bad conditions(?). Reply