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Lion and Tiger Fight Interaction in Zoo, Circus or Any Other Captive Places

Switzerland Spalea Online
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#76

Because of a monkey, big cats take command of the boat... Film comedy with captive tigers, and lions... and a small domestic cat:




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Poland nobody Offline
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This is not a guy from this forum?



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India Sanju Offline
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#78




When Need turns to Greed, our Extinction happens.
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Switzerland Spalea Online
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#79

A new one, showing an epic fight between a lion and a tiger (I'm joking...):




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United States Pckts Offline
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( This post was last modified: 05-18-2019, 05:10 AM by Rishi )


Young Lion and Tiger playing.


Tigress teasing a Lion
"Imagination was given to man to compensate him for what he is not, and a sense of humor was provided to console him for what he is."
-Oscar Wilde
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United States RakeshMondal Offline
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#81
( This post was last modified: 08-08-2019, 02:51 PM by Rishi )

(01-26-2019, 01:33 PM)Jimmy Wrote: There will obviously be biased video in this matter, I think that Chinese guy uploading the video above by Sanjay is slightly tiger biased, but seems pretty fair and then there is clearly a Lion fanatic Englishman, who puts very stupid boastful titles for lion while bashing tigers, also he likes any comment that thrashes tiger, having bias is one thing, dowright degrading another animal is ugly, i vowed to never watch his misleading video but those videos precisely popped up in wildfact in trainer's thread,  regarding Kathlee's post and experience with big cats, i did not made any comment on that cuz i know what and how he posts his vids, here is one of his more 'civilized' video but Iam done with this man i don't want to see his video posts no more.




Looks like you have not been up to date on this channel at all.

Adding the person recording in most of these videos are in china, a lion fan, and is literally abusing the tiger throwing things at it and scaring them just to make fun of them. Weird yet, nobody talks about the reason problems here, not young small tigers being curious and cautious of a lion.









How about lets delete this thread and pretend it never existed? I thought no lion vs tiger?
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Finland Shadow Offline
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( This post was last modified: 08-08-2019, 11:12 AM by Shadow )

(08-08-2019, 09:04 AM)RakeshMondal Wrote:
(01-26-2019, 01:33 PM)Jimmy Wrote: There will obviously be biased video in this matter, I think that Chinese guy uploading the video above by Sanjay is slightly tiger biased, but seems pretty fair and then there is clearly a Lion fanatic Englishman, who puts very stupid boastful titles for lion while bashing tigers, also he likes any comment that thrashes tiger, having bias is one thing, dowright degrading another animal is ugly, i vowed to never watch his misleading video but those videos precisely popped up in wildfact in trainer's thread,  regarding Kathlee's post and experience with big cats, i did not made any comment on that cuz i know what and how he posts his vids, here is one of his more 'civilized' video but Iam done with this man i don't want to see his video posts no more.




Looks like you have not been up to date on this channel at all.


This is why lion fans hate wildfact so much. Because here we actually care about these animals and their conservation, respect these animals, and discuss like civilized minded, rational human beings. We don't call fellow magnificent animals fat, coward, pig, loser, and chicken for absolutely no reason. And there should be zero reason either.

Adding the person recording in most of these videos are in china, a lion fan, and is literally abusing the tiger throwing things at it and scaring them just to make fun of them. Weird yet, nobody talks about the reason problems here, not young small tigers being curious and cautious of a lion.









How about lets delete this thread and pretend it never existed? I thought no lion vs tiger?

Everyone here know worst lion and tiger fanboys and aren´t caring much what they write, because it´s impossible to take seriously those people. It´s also well known thing how those guys edit video clips to show only parts of some interactions. Also ridiculous headlines of videos uploaded by fanboys are well known.

This thread hasn´t been a problem, but it is and will be monitored and if discussion starts to change to bad direction (childish lion-tiger "war"), moderation will happen. These interactions between tigers and lions do happen though, for various reasons. Many times sadly because wrong people happen to have these animals in captivity. Still these videos have been ok as long as no-one tries to bring in that "lion-tiger fanboy war" in some thread here. 

If some people want to think, that lion is invincible, it´s their right. Same thing if some people want to think, that tiger invincible. We can´t force them to think otherwise. But we can keep discussions here civilized.
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India Rishi Online
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( This post was last modified: 08-08-2019, 02:52 PM by Rishi )

(01-26-2019, 01:33 PM)Jimmy Wrote: There will obviously be biased video in this matter, I think that Chinese guy uploading the video above by Sanjay is slightly tiger biased, but seems pretty fair and then there is clearly a Lion fanatic Englishman, who puts very stupid boastful titles for lion while bashing tigers, also he likes any comment that thrashes tiger, having bias is one thing, dowright degrading another animal is ugly, i vowed to never watch his misleading video but those videos precisely popped up in wildfact in trainer's thread,  regarding Kathlee's post and experience with big cats, i did not made any comment on that cuz i know what and how he posts his vids, here is one of his more 'civilized' video but Iam done with this man i don't want to see his video posts no more.
(08-08-2019, 09:04 AM)RakeshMondal Wrote: Looks like you have not been up to date on this channel at all.


This is why lion fans hate wildfact so much. Because here we actually care about these animals and their conservation, respect these animals, and discuss like civilized minded, rational human beings. We don't call fellow magnificent animals fat, coward, pig, loser, and chicken for absolutely no reason. And there should be zero reason either.

Adding the person recording in most of these videos are in china, a lion fan, and is literally abusing the tiger throwing things at it and scaring them just to make fun of them. Weird yet, nobody talks about the reason problems here, not young small tigers being curious and cautious of a lion.









How about lets delete this thread and pretend it never existed? I thought no lion vs tiger?
(08-08-2019, 11:02 AM)Shadow Wrote: Everyone here know worst lion and tiger fanboys and aren´t caring much what they write, because it´s impossible to take seriously those people. It´s also well known thing how those guys edit video clips to show only parts of some interactions. Also ridiculous headlines of videos uploaded by fanboys are well known.

This thread hasn´t been a problem, but it is and will be monitored and if discussion starts to change to bad direction (childish lion-tiger "war"), moderation will happen. These interactions between tigers and lions do happen though, for various reasons. Many times sadly because wrong people happen to have these animals in captivity. Still these videos have been ok as long as no-one tries to bring in that "lion-tiger fanboy war" in some thread here. 

If some people want to think, that lion is invincible, it´s their right. Same thing if some people want to think, that tiger invincible. We can´t force them to think otherwise. But we can keep discussions here civilized.

I noticed that in the recent months waaaaaaay too much importance is being given on opinions of problem elements who aren't even members of this forum.
Other people's biases are not within the scope of the forum, so stop bringing it up over & over again, outside private messages.

Members are being requested to not to post (& delete any such previously posted) ones that clearly distorts facts so that the quality of threads don't fall.
"Everything not saved will be lost."

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United States RakeshMondal Offline
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#84
( This post was last modified: 08-08-2019, 02:56 PM by Rishi )

(08-08-2019, 11:02 AM)Shadow Wrote: Everyone here know worst lion and tiger fanboys and aren´t caring much what they write, because it´s impossible to take seriously those people. It´s also well known thing how those guys edit video clips to show only parts of some interactions. Also ridiculous headlines of videos uploaded by fanboys are well known.

This thread hasn´t been a problem, but it is and will be monitored and if discussion starts to change to bad direction (childish lion-tiger "war"), moderation will happen. These interactions between tigers and lions do happen though, for various reasons. Many times sadly because wrong people happen to have these animals in captivity. Still these videos have been ok as long as no-one tries to bring in that "lion-tiger fanboy war" in some thread here. 

If some people want to think, that lion is invincible, it´s their right. Same thing if some people want to think, that tiger invincible. We can´t force them to think otherwise. But we can keep discussions here civilized.


Haha, I actually kinda like you now. 
Now related to this thread, Peter's post dug up from the depths of Wildfact. Direct yet indirect comparison of lions and tigers and also talks about the topic at hand.


HUNTERS AND MINIMALISM

Hunting is much underestimated. Professional hunters like cats all walk the edge all the time everywhere. They're true specialists that adapted over time. The result of this never ending process is an animal that, apart from specific equipment, combines strength, speed and agility. They don't come more athletic, I mean.

Most cats hunt small to medium-sized animals, but some target large herbivores. Although big game hunters are a bit different, skeletons and skulls of cats are very similar. In many ways, they're minimalists. Their bones, although dense, are just large enough for the job. They got what is needed and not an ounce more. Weight is important for a solitary hunter. Hunting is about balance and agility. 

LIONS STAND OUT

Compared to other cats, lions stand out in a number of ways. One is that they live and hunt in groups. Two is that their skulls are more stretched. To such a degree, that they seem 'overskulled' at times. Three is that their bodies are different from other cats: more robust in head and body, but, relatively, less muscular in the limbs.

When you try to find answers to questions, you need to connect lifestyle, hunting technique and results (adaptations). Social predators need to hunt large animals. Hunting large animals on your own is difficult. For this reason, tigers had to adapt. Big game specialists like adult male tigers nearly always are large and muscular animals. Size pays. Lions are social animals. They cooperate when they bring down a large animals. Size doesn't really pay. Cooperation does. 

How cooperate when hunting a large herbivore? The answer is planning an attack and use your combined weight to bring the victim down. Killing as quickly as possible has no priority. It is about bringing the victim down. If it's down it is harmless, meaning you can start eating right away.  

THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN SOLITARY AND SOCIAL BIG GAME HUNTERS

Hunting a large animal on your own is different from hunting a large animal in a group. A solitary hunter needs to adapt, whereas social cats do not. For a solitary hunters, specialisation pays.  

So what are the results of hunting on your own and hunting in a group? 

Groups first. When contact has been established, you use your canines to stay in touch and your body to restrict the victim and tire it. This means that lions need a body and a skull able to deal with severe stress for a considerable amount of time. As you can't lock on to a mountain of meat (referring to large herbivores) with a short snout (no penetration), you need a long one. You also need canines similar to icepicks; sharp-pointed, bended and not too long. You need strong limbs, but it is mostly about using your weight in an effective way. A bit like a bear (overwhelming the victim) would. Or a wolf (hanging on and pulling).

The result is a robust body with an elongated skull. In lionesses, the skulls, although elongated, is similar to the skull of other cats: smooth and functional. Male lions, however, need reinforced skulls in order to be able to deal with violence in the pride violence during exchanges with other coalitions. All in all, a male lion needs to be strong and fit. Apart from robustness, no significant adaptations are needed.  

A solitary big cat hunting large animals can't rely on others. He first has to get close, than time his move to perfection. It is about targeting the best spot right away. A slight miscalculation can result in an injury or, worse, a loss of energy. As he is dealing with a heavier animal, he needs to know a few things about using the energy and mass of his opponent. Talking judo here. This is needed to topple him over. Could result in a broken neck, but you need to have a lot of experience to do it just right. Most tigers, for that reason, won't succeed in breaking necks. This means they need to wrestle their victim into a position that will result in a decisive advantage and a quick kill. When the opponent is a large herbivore, 'quick' is a few minutes at best.

The best option is the vertebrae of the neck, but when the opponent is big, the vertebrae-option is out. Strangulation is second best, but it's the only real chance when the animal they targeted is large. This takes a lot of strength, especially in the jaw muscles, the neck, the shoulder and the upper- and fore-arms. In order to get there as soon as possible, you don't need an elongated snout, but a rounded and powerful skull and long and strong canines to hold on and create a bit of collateral damage. Could be a major artery or a crushed windpipe. Holding on is important, but it is about penetration in the end.

All in all, a male tiger needs experience and a lot of power to succeed. The result is a vaulted, dense skull with big guns and wide arches. But not too large. Another result is a muscular body, especially up front. Large muscles are ok, but it shouldn't result in losing agility. When fighting an animal of similar size with more bulk, agility is of utmost importance. The reason is it will allow the tiger to get to an advantage first. For this reason, 450 pounds empty is quite a weight for a solitary hunter. 

One would think that a male lion would be able to accomodate more weight, but it is the other way round. At least, if we include regions populated by large tigers. The reason is that hunting large animals on your own will result in a surplus of energy in the long run. As more protein will result in more size, this will allow him to target large animals all the time. Specialisation. It will also allow him to invest more energy in breeding and keeping the territory he conquered safe. Long enough to succeed. In the end, all conditions equal, a healthy ecosystem will result in more large animals. Upgrading is typical for healthy tiger societies. 

In tigers, size pays. In lions, it doesn't. A coalition of two 475-pound males, all conditions equal, won't beat a coalition of three 400-pound males. It is about combined weight and teamwork. A clever 475-pound lion can, of course, create a situation favouring the larger animal, but it apaprently doesn't happen often.   

MALE LIONS AND TIGERS IN NATURAL CONDITIONS

When a wild male lion meets a wild male tiger of equal size and age, conflict is likely. If both are capable, chances are the confrontation will develop into a situation often seen in India. Male tigers, like male lions, are very territorial animals. They will never accept a stand-off if they can help it. In India and the Russian Far East, male tigers use psychological warfare to create frequent exchanges. Tigers know about intimidation and stress.  

When a serious fight erupts, I slightly favour the tiger. There are a number of reasons. At more or less equal size, tigers seem more balanced on their hind legs, a bit faster and more agile. This will result in more initiative. A wild adult male tiger also is a more experienced hunter who knows how to quickly get a decisive advantage in a struggle. More important is their make-up. Wild tigers are tenacious and very territorial animals often engaged in what seems to be psychological warfare. If male lions are experienced warriors, male tigers are experienced warmongers and hitmen, always planning their next move and always looking for a weak spot. When they engage, they seem to explode. Their energy is very different from the energy of other big cats. Lion posters often point to the apparently limited amount of energy of tigers, but culture is very different from content. Male tigers quite often engage in conflicts that can last for many hours. Not seldom, there seems to be no apparent reason. Based on what I saw, I'd say that wild tigers are a bit more aggressive than all other big cats.

In spite of that, the margins are small. A male lion also is very capable and he can take quite a bit of damage. With animals of this size, any mistake can have fatal consequences.              

MALE LIONS AND TIGERS IN CAPTIVITY

In captivity, tigers, in constrast to lions, often quickly lose their 'tigerishness'. If a male tiger shares an enclosure with a male lion of similar size and age, chances are the lion, used to dealing with competition every day all day long, will try to boss the tiger around. Tigers are solitary cats not used to daily exchanges about food and all the rest of it. They're not going to invest their energy in managing their daily affairs, I mean. A male lion will, no matter what. Relentless pressure could be the best option for the lion to keep on top, but if he pushes his luck a serious fight can follow.

Although anything can happen, chances are that it's not going to develop into an all-out. Not when there's just the two of them. Conflict in captivity usually is about dominance, not the essentials. When one of the two has made his point, the fire is usually quickly extinguished. If the fight isn't about dominance but a result of a deep-rooted grudge, it can have fatal consequences. This type of conflict, however, is more often seen between members of the same species. Tigers and bears are the exception, so it seems.

Although they may seem eternal enemies, tigers and lions don't seem to do that bad when they share a large enclosure. If the numbers are equal, serious fights seldom erupt. According to the poster who saw the Everland videos (see below), only alpha males engage in fights about dominance. The outcome of these fights is accepted by most other animals. When the lion prevails, stability is the usual outcome. If the tiger wins, turbulance can be the result.

Many do not seem to know that tigers also know how to cooperate. Not in a circus, but in a large enclosure. They don't quite compare to lions for teamwork, but the Korean poster said it's good enough to keep a kind of balance.

Large enclosures inhabited by both lions and tigers could be the future for zoos and other facilities. In order to prevent problems often seen in captive big cats, they are now encouraged to 'work' for their food. It has an effect. The next step is a daily training to keep (mentally) fit. In the end, however, animals want to interact. With other animals, if possible. I would advice against mixing tigers with bears or donkeys, but Everland says lions and tigers could, perhaps, co-exist. To a degree, of course. They would need a supervisor driving around all day every day in order to prevent problems. Warmongers need to be removed. Same for extra-large individuals out for blood.                

DEBATES ABOUT FIGHTS AT WILDFACT

We could talk a very long time about the most likely outcome of a fight between a male tiger and a male lion, but chances are it won't produce a satisfying result. Based on what I saw, read and heard, I got to a conclusion, but it only is an opinion and I'm sure it will be contested by many. As all debates about lions and tigers I saw produced a bad climate at best, we decided against it. Anyone ignoring this decision will be banned.

We could do a comparison, but you will never get the real deal. Not happening.

ADVICE

I had one good debate about lions and tigers some years ago. One good debate in a period of about 10 years (...). The poster involved, apart from producing good arguments and sound reasoning, was the only one able to exchange ideas about a hot topic in a respectful way. My advice is to contact Lion Claws at Carnivora. Give him my regards.

I can also recommend reading the lion-tiger thread at that forum. Do it from start to finish. There's one post from a poster able in Korean. He had seen a lot of Everland videos. His post is long, but interesting.                   

Most forums need versus-debates, but they come at a cost. Carnivora is one of the few that survived. If you really like a versus-debate, visit that forum. When you're done debating, you could contribute to the comparison thread.

One more thing. Although it may seem different, I do not distinguish between both species. To see a wild tiger in a forest, is quite something. To see a wild male lion in the high grasses, is as great. Both cats are the splendid result of a long evolution. The thing is that I was born with a tiger on my bed. For this reason, I'm very interested in tigers. There is a connection, but I also know about teamwork. Humans and lions are very similar in many respects. They could tell us quite a bit about things we do not seem to understand.
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United States Pckts Offline
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( This post was last modified: 08-13-2019, 03:18 AM by Pckts )




Lion and Tiger play fighting.
"Imagination was given to man to compensate him for what he is not, and a sense of humor was provided to console him for what he is."
-Oscar Wilde
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Finland Shadow Offline
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( This post was last modified: 08-13-2019, 05:34 AM by Rishi )

This is one serious fight between tiger-lion and unedited, unlike most videos on youtube. 

This is for me a good example about it, that how useless it is to create fancy theories how fights go, like it would be some video game. Both animals are very capable to fight in different positions. This time luckily trainer was able to shoot that gun and confuse/scare animals to stop fighting. If not able to separate, impossible to say which one would have been lifeless in the end. Of course some people without any doubt are able to tell how it would have ended Wink 

This has happened some time in February 2018 in Russia. I haven´t shared it before, but since there is so much edited crap in youtube, maybe it is good to see one real incident, where it all can be seen from start to finish.

Seems to be so, that these trainers maybe shouldn´t have these animals.




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Finland Shadow Offline
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( This post was last modified: 08-13-2019, 03:55 AM by Shadow )

Same incident and better quality video and from different directions.

First translation from description:


During the performance in the Moscow Circus on Vernadsky Prospekt, an emergency occurred that will make even the most sophisticated audience shudder for a long time.

In the arena between two dangerous predators, a fight broke out. Trying to prove his leadership, the tiger attacked the lion. He, in turn, gave him a rebuff.

At first, the Zapashny brothers - Edgard and Askold - tried to calm the predators by throwing circus curbstones at them. But this did not affect them.



Then Askold decided to resort to extreme measures - he shot into the air. This cooled the bestial fervor of predators.

Spectators watched in horror at the arena, one of which photographed what had happened on video. Later, the video was published in his "Instagram" by Askold himself.

"For the first time I shot from a light/noise weapon
, and, thank God, I managed to stop Philip's lion, who wanted to join the" battle, "said the trainer.




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United States Roflcopters Offline
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I can’t believe people actually pay money to see this garbage, all those poor animals.
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Netherlands peter Offline
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( This post was last modified: 08-13-2019, 11:29 AM by peter )

(08-13-2019, 03:19 AM)Shadow Wrote: Same incident and better quality video and from different directions.

First translation from description:


During the performance in the Moscow Circus on Vernadsky Prospekt, an emergency occurred that will make even the most sophisticated audience shudder for a long time.

In the arena between two dangerous predators, a fight broke out. Trying to prove his leadership, the tiger attacked the lion. He, in turn, gave him a rebuff.

At first, the Zapashny brothers - Edgard and Askold - tried to calm the predators by throwing circus curbstones at them. But this did not affect them.



Then Askold decided to resort to extreme measures - he shot into the air. This cooled the bestial fervor of predators.

Spectators watched in horror at the arena, one of which photographed what had happened on video. Later, the video was published in his "Instagram" by Askold himself.

"For the first time I shot from a light/noise weapon
, and, thank God, I managed to stop Philip's lion, who wanted to join the" battle, "said the trainer.





ANALYSIS

a - The fight

01 - The Zapashny Brothers walk the male lion to the side of the cage.

02 - The moment the second Zapashny turns his back, the tiger attacks.

03 - During the first attack, the second male lion prepares to join the fight. Discouraged by one of the trainers, he turns round.

04 - Just before the tiger made contact, the lion turns his head and rolled over.

05 - By rolling over, the lion was able to absorb the weight of the attack. 

06 - On his back, the lion was able to use the tiger's momentum and turn the tables. 

07 - On equal terms, the lion pushed the tiger to his front, in this way creating momentum.

08 - As the lion is behind him and coming forward, the tiger is forced to move out of harm's way. 

09 - During his retreat, the tiger was able to turn round and face the lion head on.

10 - When they meet again, this time on equal terms, the tiger uses his forepaws to get a grip on the lion's mane.

11 - The lion again goes down with the tiger on top of him. This time, he isn't able to get out of the hold immediately. 

12 - After the shot is fired, the tiger jumps away.

13 - Close to the cage, after the fight, the lion moved towards the tiger. The tiger turned to meet him and the lion moved away.  

b - Contenders

01 - Although they were close in size, the lion seemed a bit bigger. 

02 - According to the description (see the translation), the tiger attacked to prove his superiority. However. The trainers I interviewed told me male lions fight each other to move up (not personal), whereas male tigers fight to get rid of tension or to get access to a tigress (personal). When they fight each other, they, apart from exceptions (fueds), usually quickly settle their affairs. When they fight animals they dislike, however, fights can develop into a dangerous all-out. 

c - Trainers

When the fight erupted, the Zapashny's responded in an adequate way. One of them immediately discouraged the second male lion when the fight started, in this way avoiding a new problem. They then tried to break up the fight. The assistents also responded in an adequate way, as they stepped in very quicky and did what they had to do. When the brawlers were not to be discouraged, one of the Zapashy's made sure the fight was stopped. All in all, it took less than 30 seconds. Well done.

My score - Zapashny Bros: 9 out of 10. Beatty: 1 out of 10.

Why not 10 out of 10?

Mixed acts are potentially dangerous, especially when tigers, lions and bears are forced to cooperate. All trainers know there's no love lost between these species, meaning you got to take precautions. Lions often talk about their intentions, but so do tigers and bears. Not as openly as lions, but they're not as secretive as many think. Those who watch them closely often, to a degree, are able to predict their actions. My guess is the tiger involved in the brawl told the trainers about his intentions before he attacked. They apparently missed it (1 point deducted). 

I'm not sure about the history of the act, but the animals seemed a bit tense. Could have been a result of a lack of pedestals. For circus cats, pedestals are always safe. The video suggests only a few pedestals were used. The new concept seems to work, but the lack of a clearly defined individual space could have disadvantages (another point gone).  

I only saw 2 male lions in the video. As male lions, in contrast to tigers, fight together, it meant a tiger involved in a brawl would not face more than 2 male lions. This decision offers the Zapashny's more time and room to break up a brawl. Damage control and good thinking (1 extra point).

d - Style of fighting

01 - Lions.

Captive male lions, and those in their prime in particular, tend to be quite sure of themselves. Surprise attacks and adequate responses are not in the book. A tiger, therefore, can get to an early advantage. When disadvantaged, male lions, like tigers, often roll over quickly to be able to absorb the initial blow. After turning round, they're able to use the momentum of their opponent to their advantage. Male lions often use the freight train strategy, meaning they go forward in order to pin their opponent with everything they have. Although their stocky build enables infighting, they're not very agile. In a brawl with an athletic opponent, they, as a result, often lose initiative. The mane can absorb blows to a degree, but it also offers the opponent an opportunity to get a hold. This hold can enable him to move the lion in a position it wants to avoid at all costs. Without a mane, that would be much more difficult. 

02 - Tigers

Male tigers often are more wary and more cautious than male lions. When confronted, they, more often than not, tend to give way. When determined, however, tigers often are prepared to go all the way. They're different from lions in that they're more manoeuvrable. When they fight another tiger, they tend to lock on. In a fight with a bear or a lion, however, they seem to avoid just that. When they fight a bear, they try to get to his back. Lions have a mane, enabling a tiger to hook on.             

e - Big predators compared

Based on what I saw and what trainers told me, my guess is there's, strengthwise, little to choose between male lions, tigers and bears of similar age and size (difference in weight limited to 100 pounds). The trainer interviewed by Big Bonns (AVA) said bears easily outwrestle a big cat, but added an attack from behind, in his opinion, would result in a dead bear. Pikunov agreed in the department of strength, but thought the bear would outendure a tiger. Krechmar, however, said there are no consistent winners. Tony Hughes, regarding captive big cats and bears, roughly agreed. 

What I heard and saw suggests a tiger would get more opportunities as a result of more speed and agility, but it would be a close call between animals of similar size no matter what. One mistake could be curtains. This regarding animals born and bred in captivity. 

In wild tigers and lions, things could be a bit different. The reason is adult tigers, as Vaillant said, are true survivors. Only the most able and clever get to adulthood. Male lions also have to avoid bad decisions, but their way of life (referring to coalitions) enables both the able and the clever to get to adulthood. In male tigers, fysical ability always is important. Limited ability can result in starvation. This is not always true for all male lions, at least not to the same degree. But I never heard of a male lion starving to death in his prime.

f - Docu on the Zapashny Brothers

I found the documentary below today. It's in Russian.

Wolverine, able in Russian, is out at the moment. Perhaps another poster is able to tell us a bit more about the documentary:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2P6qyEGAtms
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( This post was last modified: 08-13-2019, 02:19 PM by Shadow )

(08-13-2019, 10:34 AM)peter Wrote:
(08-13-2019, 03:19 AM)Shadow Wrote: Same incident and better quality video and from different directions.

First translation from description:


During the performance in the Moscow Circus on Vernadsky Prospekt, an emergency occurred that will make even the most sophisticated audience shudder for a long time.

In the arena between two dangerous predators, a fight broke out. Trying to prove his leadership, the tiger attacked the lion. He, in turn, gave him a rebuff.

At first, the Zapashny brothers - Edgard and Askold - tried to calm the predators by throwing circus curbstones at them. But this did not affect them.



Then Askold decided to resort to extreme measures - he shot into the air. This cooled the bestial fervor of predators.

Spectators watched in horror at the arena, one of which photographed what had happened on video. Later, the video was published in his "Instagram" by Askold himself.

"For the first time I shot from a light/noise weapon
, and, thank God, I managed to stop Philip's lion, who wanted to join the" battle, "said the trainer.





ANALYSIS

a - The fight

01 - The Zapashny Brothers walk the male lion to his pedestal.

02 - The moment they turn their back on the lion, the tiger attacks.

03 - During the first attack, the second male lion prepares to join the fight. Discouraged by one of the trainers, he turns round.

04 - Just before the tiger made contact, the lion turns his head and rolled over.

05 - By rolling over, the lion is able to absorb the weight of the attack and to minimize the damage. 

06 - On his back, the lion is able to use the tiger's momentum to turn the tables. 

07 - After getting to equal terms, the lion rises and pushes the tiger to his front, in this way creating momentum.

08 - As the lion is behind him and coming forward, the tiger is forced to move out of harm's way. 

09 - During his retreat, the tiger is able to turn round and face the lion head on.

10 - When they meet again, this time on equal terms, the tiger rises to his hindlegs and uses his forepaws to get a grip on the lion's mane.

11 - The lion again goes down with the tiger on top of him. This time, he isn't able to get out of the hold immediately. 

12 - After the shot is fired, the tiger jumps away.

13 - Close to the cage, after the fight, the lion moves towards the tiger. The tiger turns to meet him and the lion moves away.  

b - Contenders

01 - Although they were close in size, the lion seemed to be a bit bigger. 

02 - According to the description (see the translation), the tiger attacked to prove his superiority. The trainers I interviewed told me male lions fight each other to move up, whereas male tigers fight to get rid of tension or to get access to a tigress. When they fight each other, they, apart from exceptions (fueds), usually quickly settle their affairs. When they fight animals they dislike, however, fights can develop into a dangerous all-out. 

c - Trainers

When the fight erupted, the Zapashny's responded in an adequate way. One of them immediately discouraged the second male lion when the fight started, in this way avoiding a potentially big problem. The other tried to break up the fight. The assistents also responded in an adequate way, as they stepped in very quicky and did what they had to do. When the brawlers were not to be discouraged, one of the Zapashy's made sure the fight was stopped. All in all, it took less than 30 seconds. Well done.

My score - Zapashny Bros: 9 out of 10. Beatty: 1 out of 10.

Why not 10 out of 10?

Mixed acts are potentially dangerous, especially when tigers, lions and bears are forced to cooperate. All trainers know there's no love lost between these species, meaning you got to take precautions. Lions often talk about their intentions, but so do tigers and bears. Not as openly as lions, but they're not as secretive as many think. Those who watch them closely often, although to a degree, are able to predict their actions. My guess is the tiger involved in the brawl told the trainers about his intentions before he attacked. They apparently missed it (1 point deducted). 

I'm not sure about the history of the act, but the animals seemed a bit tense. Could have been a result of a lack of pedestals and could have been a result of a recent change. For circus cats, pedestals are always safe, no matter what. The video suggests only a few pedestals were used (another point gone). 

Although they knew what to do, the cats seemed to be unsure about each other. I could be wrong, but my guess is the lions were recent arrivals. If so, the mixed act was a risk (third point gone). 

I only saw 2 male lions in the video. As male lions, in contrast to tigers, fight together, it meant a tiger involved in a brawl would not face more than 2 male lions. This decision resulted in damage control. Furthermore, it offers trainers more room to break up a brawl quickly. Good thinking (2 extra points).

d - Style of fighting

01 - Lions.

Captive male lions, and those in their prime in particular, tend to be quite sure of themselves. This means they are not prepared for a surprise attack. A tiger of similar size, therefore, can get to an early advantage. When disadvantaged, male lions, like tigers, often roll over quickly to be able to absorb the initial blow. In this way, they are able to use the momentum of their opponent to their advantage and get their footing to get to equal terms quickly. Head on, they often use the freight train strategy, meaning they go forward in order to pin their opponent. Although their stocky build enables infighting, they're not agile. In a brawl with a more athletic opponent of similar weight, they, therefore, often lose initiative. The mane can absorb blows to a degree, but it also offers the opponent an opportunity to get a hold. This hold can enable him to move the lion in a position it wants to avoid at all costs. Without a mane, that would be much more difficult. 

02 - Tigers

Male tigers often are more wary and more cautious than male lions. When confronted, they, more often than not, tend to give way. When determined, however, tigers often are prepared to go head to head. They're different from lions in that they are more agile. When they fight another tiger, they tend to lock on. In a fight with a bear or a lion, however, they seem to avoid just that. When the opponent is a bear, they try to get to his back. One trainer who saw a fight told me the tiger jumped the bear to get to a good position. Lions are different from bears in that they have a mane, enabling a tiger to hook on and position the lion.             

03 - Big predators compared

Based on what I saw and what trainers told me, my guess is there's, strengthwise, little to choose between male lions, tigers and bears of similar age and size (difference in weight limited to 100 pounds). The trainer interviewed by Big Bonns (AVA) said bears easily outwrestle a big cat, but added an attack from behind would result in a dead bear. Pikunov agreed in the department of strength, but thought the bear would outendure a tiger. Krechmar, however, said there are no consistent winners. Tony Hughes, regarding captive big cats and bears, roughly agreed. 

What I heard and saw suggests a tiger would get more opportunities as a result of more speed and agility, but it would be a close call between animals of similar size. One mistake could be, and often is, curtains. This regarding animals born and bred in captivity. 

In wild tigers and lions, however, it could be a bit different. The reason is adult tigers, as Vaillant said, are true survivors. Only the most able and clever get to adulthood. Male lions also have to avoid bad decisions, but their way of life (referring to coalitions) enables both fysical able and clever males to get to adulthood. In male tigers, fysical ability always is important. The reason is they have to hunt. Limited ability in this respect can result in starvation. This is not always true for all male lions, at least not to the same degree. But I never heard of a male lion starving to death in his prime.

In the end, all adult big predators of all species are fascinating, able and unmatched miracles of nature.

This was a good example, how in short time happens a lot. In 13-14 seconds all over and both cats giving and receiving, no clear upper hand or anything even though there was a surprise attack. Both animals in good shape when comparing to each others. 

It is easy to say, how tiger would do this and that and lion this and that. Here was reality, two strong and fast big cats which have more incommon, than separating when looking at physique and capabilities. Differences are minor. Many say, that tigers fight on back. Well, as here can be seen, so do lions and obviously are good in it too. I didn´t see in this any moment where another one would have been in major trouble. Maybe after some time other one would have been, if fight would have continued a few minutes, maybe not. Also after trainers could separate animals by shooting that gun, neither animal wasn´t looking scared etc., that shot just broke the moment, what comes fighting and made animals again to remember, that they should follow what trainers command. For me it looked like that lion was going to continue a split second after that shot, but then calming down, maybe trainers voice finally reached it after that gunshot. Tiger didn´t look scary either.

One interesting thing though was, that often in other situations it looks like male lions aren´t taking situation so seriously in the beginning and getting some swipes. In this situation lion obviously understood immediately, that time to fight, not wait and see. Sometimes it might look like lions are "diesel engines", gets some time to get engine running smoothly, this showed that when needed a split second is enough.

Anyway, as it could be seen, it´s quite intense and fast. Far from easy to take upper hand if not able to surprise other one totally. Also it was interesting to see how lion practically threw tiger away from first wrestle causing tiger to land on it´s side, good reminder for it, how strong these animals are, tiger would naturally be able to do the same if positions vice versa.

Well, hopefully this opens up some eyes and teaches certain respect for both of these "brothers", stripes or mane, when needed they both are able to give and receive a lot. This fight was a good example for it, that why fanboys have argued about "superiority" for centuries maybe. It´s just impossible to know what happens and how it ends when lion and tiger meet like this. Small things and sometimes pure luck can be game changer, physically there simply isn´t anything, which would give clear upper hand for another. That´s my opinion, naturally everyone are free to have their own :) If asked from 10 people about this fight, I guess that we get 10 more or less different analysis etc....
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