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John Varty & Tiger Canyon

Sanju Offline
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( This post was last modified: 02-05-2019, 09:38 PM by Sanju )

These John Varty's Tiger Canyon's Tigers are unique, beautiful and huge than anywhere else in the world with this type of all rounder combination may be because they are hybrids of different populations of mainland tigers (tigris tigris) i.e.., Bengal- Amur captive population Hybrids. Show me any other tigers in the world beautiful than these Tiger Canyon Tigers. They are literally adorable. Wow 



BIRD (name)-- a young tiger but dominant male. He looks similar to Bandhavgarh males of MP.
Photo: ©Mark Shepherd
Tiger Canyons, Great Project - wish it all the success it deserves

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Sanju Offline
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Interesting Conversation in the Comment Section:

DragonFae16: I approve of the idea of rewilding tigers. However, what I can't approve of is how inbred the population at Tiger Canyons is. Ron and Julie, brother and sister, were allowed to have a litter. Seatao was allowed to have a litter with Shine, his daughter. And Ussuri's litter from three years ago was fathered by Sariska, her cousin. Having this happen once could be called an accident. However, for it to happen repeatedly shows a total lack of regard for the long term health and well being of the tigers at Tiger Canyons. A population this inbred would be considered functionally extinct, as the lack of genetic diversity is at a point where the individuals would struggle to find an unrelated partner. If JV truly cared as much about tiger conservation and really did one day want to have his tigers released into their ancestral homeland, he wouldn't allow ANY inbreeding to occur. After the birth of Ussuri's cubs, I emailed him, expressing my concerns about the inbreeding that had happened, and he said that this wasn't inbreeding. Meaning he only sees sibling/sibling or parent/offspring matings as inbreeding, meaning he hasn't done any research into maintaining a stable population. If this inbreeding isn't halted, within a few generations, the tigers born here will be so compromised that they'll be incapable of sustaining themselves. I feel that until JV clearly states on his website the exact parentage of every cub born in the park and gives a guarantee that he will not allow any inbreeding to occur, people shouldn't go to visit Tiger Canyons. Otherwise it's just another case of a park exploiting their animals for their own gain while spouting pretty words.

JohnVarty: 1. The offspring of Ron and Julie (Tiger Boy and Shy Boy), were sterilised. Both died without any cubs.
                  2. Shine was killed by Corbett before she had any cubs. She never mated with Seatao. He was her father and Julie was her mother!
                  3. Ussuri is the daughter of Seatao and Julie. Sariska was the son of Ron and Shadow. Ron and Julie were brother and sister. They have one daughter, Jameez. Have you ever  been to Tiger Canyons? What is your name?

DragonFae16: In the obituary to Seatao on the Tiger Canyons website, it says he mated with Shine. The video about Ussuri's cubs says Sariska is the father. As Ron and Julie were siblings, this makes Ussuri and Sariska first generation cousins. That means that if he really was the cubs' father this would be inbreeding. If the cubs were fathered by an unrelated male, that's all well and good then. However, there is no excuse if those cubs really were the result of a first generation cousin to cousin mating. Many think inbreeding only talks about sibling/sibling or parent/offspring matings. That's wrong. It is when any two closely related individuals reproduce. If the tigers at Tiger Canyons are there to be an insurance population of wild tigers in case tigers in other parts of the world go extinct, having a high level of genetic diversity and carefully controlling the breeding is a must. Populations of wild big cats that have been cut off and only consist of a few individuals show the devastation inbreeding can cause. I'm not a scientist who has done research on genetics, but as a layman's opinion, animals no closer than third cousins should breed. The fact that there isn't even a list on your website of each tiger living within Tiger Canyons brings doubt to this. If conservation was your true goal, you would be open and transparent about the number of tigers you have, their parentage and which other tigers they are being partnered with. The info on your website for the tigers for the most part is from 2009 and the family tree is from 2013. Your regular updates to the website shows that you are definitely active online and that the site hasn't fallen to the wayside due to lack of time. If conservation was your one and only goal, all female tigers would be fitted with contraceptive implants and all breeding would be tightly controlled, with the parents being as distantly related to each other as possible. Meaning that for every tiger you planned to breed from, an unrelated individual should be brought in from the outside. And to answer your fourth question, no, I haven't been to Tiger Canyons. When I first learned of it back in 2013, I did think that if one day I could get enough money to travel overseas, I would visit. But over time I became doubtful and suspicious that it was yet another park exploiting its animals for money under the guise of conservation. Though me not having been there doesn't mean I can't be concerned about the tigers and question things. If you wish to clear up those questions and prove you truly are just about conservation, be transparent. Make up to date bios including photos of each of the tigers and a complete family tree. Make regular updates to the bios, and even put the tigers up for adoption, being clear where the money from that goes. This would also likely increase the traffic to the website, thereby increasing the visitors to Tiger Canyons itself. I can't speak for everyone, but I personally read the newsletters that involve the tigers and far less of the newsletters involving other things. I already know poaching is bad. So bad it makes me feel sick everytime I think of it. Unless you have some brand new fact or figure, going over ground already tread can cause people to tune out. The tigers are something people can connect to, something hopeful. There was a white tigress called Tibo. If she's still alive, talk about if her white coat causes her difficulties. One day when you can procure a mate for her, talk about any difficulties her white colouring have brought to raising her cubs. Talk about the plight of tigers in the wild. Not elephants, not rhino. Talk about other big cat species, sure, but your focus should be on the tigers. There are plenty of others talking about what poachers are doing to elephants and rhinos. Rather than having your voice drowned in the crowd, speak up about something others aren't. I don't want what I've said to make you to think that I hate you or Tiger Canyons. I fully support any attempt to take captive born animals and rewild them. But if it isn't done right, it will just give critics a stone to throw on the whole idea. And I am aware that acquiring unrelated mates for your tigers is are more difficult for you than a zoo because you first have to train the tiger to be able to live wild. So, why not try artificial fertilization. If you were able to get it to work, not only would you be able to increase the genetic diversity of your population, you could show the world that it is a viable method to increase the world-wide population of tigers and other big cats.

JohnVarty: Thanks you for your input. I will send your post to John Varty. Just a few things: Seatao's obituary states he bred the white tiger Shine - he was her father. Shine died before her first estrus. Shine never mated with anyone. Most of the females have contraceptive devices. We have done several vasectomies on male tigers.
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Virgin Islands, U.S. Rage2277 Offline
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 Irina Legotkina-On one morning safari at the Tiger Canyon, we managed to see the next picture. Found a TIGER FAMILY MOTHER AND 3 Tigers. At First, we were met by a sleeping kingdom. But suddenly in the ranks of the tigers started poppin, they noticed something. By looking at the same side as they, we saw a big turtle who was peacefully going somewhere on his turtle business. And what was next, see for yourself.
By the way, turtle lovers watch don't recommend.
Tiger Canyon, South Africa.
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United States Pckts Offline
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Tiger Canyons. Picture: Lorna Drew

*This image is copyright of its original author
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Sanju Offline
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( This post was last modified: 02-28-2019, 07:53 PM by Sanju )



© Clint Ralph @clintralph_sa

Two of Tigress Ussuri's cubs. Bengal Tigers, the ultimate long-tooth. These Tigers are part of the John Varty's conservation project where wild free-roaming Tigers roam Tiger Canyon hunting their own prey. The ultimate goal is to save the Tiger from extinction by having a gene pool in Africa as insurance.

http://www.clintralphphotography.co.za


Comment section Conversation of above post (me included):
  • les_native
    If the goal was strictly conservation, they should have started out with wild caught bengal tiger specimens from India and not captive bred mixed zoo tigers from Canada. Also, inbreeding should not have been allowed.
  • les_native
    But I do think this experiment does have conservation value. For example it proves that tigers can be “rewilded”. And while these tigers are of mixed origins, if all the other tigers in the world perish, at least we still have these.
  • sanjay_jayanth
    @les_native All are Panthera tigris tigris (main tiger subspecies) not "hybrids". wild caught tigers from India? LOL. it'll never happen. Our govt don't encourage such things.
  • les_native
    @sanjay_jayanth the tigers from tiger canyons are of mixed Amur and Bengal crosses. This is a fact and John Varty has said so himself. The Indian government should consider a satellite group of genetically pure and already wild Bengal tigers being that your government doesn’t seem to have a handle on the situation. I don’t think it’s a laughing matter.
  • sanjay_jayanth
    @les_native 75% of tiger population is in our country. you say we don't have situation under control? and you didn't understand my last reply. Bengal Tiger (Panthera tigris tigris), Amur tiger (Panthera tigris tigris), both are of same subspecies called mainland tiger and they are not "hybrids". There are only 2 subspecies "tigris" and "sondaica" not 9. In 2017, the Cat Classification Task Force of the IUCN Cat Specialist Group revised felid taxonomy and now recognizes the tiger populations in continental Asia as P. t. tigris, and those in the Sunda Islands as P. t. sondaica. https://repository.si.edu/bitstream/hand...sAllowed=y
  • les_native
    @sanjay_jayanth there are many more captive tigers in America or China then there are wild tigers in India. So maybe you mean 75% wild tigers left in the world are in India? That still doesn’t mean that you have a handle on it. Your overpopulated people move further into the wild lands on a daily basis. I’m growing tired of watching videos of poor terrified leopards that have nowhere to go mangling curious villagers to bits. That said the reclassification of all mainland tiger subspecies into one is accepted by some studies and not all. Some say it’s a last ditch effort to maintain as much genetic diversity as possible. Tigers in the wild are doomed.
  • sanjay_jayanth
    @les_native Yeah Tigers are doomed, other animal and plant species are also doomed, we are doomed. we are in 6th mass extinction event due to ourselves. yes, India has 70% "wild" tiger population. we are doing the best of the world in conservation, even being the 2nd most populated country. and most studies accepted, them as 2 subspecies instead of exaggerating as subspecies based on geographical names even having the same gene pool to be considered as 2 subspecies. whatever you say, in Tiger canyons tigers are conserved "Panthera tigris" not some hybrids like tigons and ligers. then there's no problem in it.
  • les_native
    @sanjay_jayanth wild tigers in India, south China, Tibet, Siberia....where ever, are sadly, doomed. The animals of Tiger Canyons are a mix of P.T. Tigris and P.T. Altaica and possibly even more subspecies. The foundation stock were all Canadian born zoo tigers. who knows when and where exactly the ancestors of those tigers were actually taken from the wild. Also the animals of tiger canyons have a small gene pool as the foundation stock were very few in number. While they aren’t hybrids, and they are 100% tiger, they are still mutts with small gene pools. One or two even have physical deformities. There is a prime breeding male on the compound now that has a very odd ear carriage and it’s most likely a malformation due to inbreeding. The white female was just bred to her own son to create more white tigers. Also, these animals are held in large bomas with stocked game. They know how to kill but are overfed and fat. They look nothing like truly wild and lean Bengal tigers. Their coat colors vary. Some individuals are massive and others not. This is further evidence of them having mixed heritage.
  • sanjay_jayanth
    @les_native yeah, but whatever they are all Panthera tigris tigris and one thing I have to accept is "white tigers" are genetic freaks born from MP's Rewa. They shouldn't be in the wild. but these tigers are being bred in Tiger canyons. This is the only bad thing about Tiger canyons.
  • les_native
    @sanjay_jayanth there are several things wrong with tiger canyons, the animals being of mixed heritage is just one, but I do believe John Barry’s heart is in the right place.
  • sanjay_jayanth
    @les_native they are all same subspecies of mainland tiger and moreover they are "tigers" primarily. No problem in that.
  • les_native
    @sanjay_jayanth you are wrong. White tigers are still tigers yet you don’t like those. You’re biased on your opinions which are not based on any facts. WE WILL AGREE TO DISAGREE.
  • sanjay_jayanth
    @les_native white tigers are genetic mutants which are born in Madhya Pradesh rewa but due to their special look, they are bred in captivity from that single tiger in all the zoos and captive places around the globe for special attraction. In the wild, it might had got extinct due because of that coat pattern which will be a disability to survive and hunt. But due to man they are still living in zoos and are highly inbred (with somatic and genetic abnormalities) to bring that white color recessive gene. They should never be in the wild. It is a fact, and against natural laws by breeding white tigers with the help of man.
  • les_native
    @sanjay_jayanth well what Varyy is doing is also unnatural. it's also against natural law to allow cats that evolved in Asia for millions of years to roam freely in Africa, to turn specimens with mixed genes from all over Asia loose onto a foreign ecosystem and expect them to adapt successfully.
  • sanjay_jayanth
    @les_native they are in closed and fenced environment separated from African wilderness in karoo's sheep farm lands like a Big zoo where tigers fend for themselves like wild ones by living with wild prey. Zoos are against to nature? absolutely not. THIS IS EX-SITU CONSERVATION. Tigers are helping South African Karoo by restoring natural environment and at the same time, some wild tigers will be left as like you said "Tigers" in Asia are doomed due to Fucking Chinese traditional medicine (CTM). Then this african tigers will be used to reintroduce in Asia. Whatever you say they are mixed or not, they are still "TIGERS" (Panthera tigris).
  • les_native
    @sanjay_jayanth zoos are prisons but that’s an entirely different conversation. These mixed breed tigers have tiny gene pools and if reintroduced to India as “bengal” tigers, they will undoubtedly contaminate whatever wild population is left. Assuming of course that they are even able to adapt to the Indian habitats. As you know, where they are enclosed now is vastly different. The prey is different and even their style of hunting is different. Let’s face it. Since the game is also enclosed, it’s only a matter of time before it caught by the tigers. That’s why these animals in South Africa are mostly all overweight. These cats introduced to the Indian wild lands would probably die. ?
  • sanjay_jayanth
    Tiger canyons is a prison too like zoo and fenced too but on large scale enclosure in which game can't ran away from canyons but still they need skills to hunt. Hunting is predator instinct, now this third generation of ild tiger is completely wild and even in India or sikhote alin, they can live once reintroduced. The same is Laohu Valley reserve which lies beside Tiger canyons "Save South China Tiger" to rewild and reintroduce tigers into china again. ever heard of that?
  • sanjay_jayanth
    @les_native https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laohu_Valley_Reserve
  • naomiroebert
    @les_native It is important to clarify in the case of Tiger Sundarban that the nature of his ear carriage is due to a fight that happened some years back between him and the tiger Tiger Boy. Sundarban was bitten in the neck and had to undergo surgery, all of which resulted in his unique ear placement. Tiger Sundarban is not a prime breeding male as he was born with a condition referred to as Bilateral Cryptorchidism. Cryptorchidism is the most common of birth defects in the sexual reproductive system amongst male animals. It is the absence of the testicles in the scrotum. He has been proven to be infertile and therefore cannot add to any genetic line. This condition does not occur as a result of inbreeding but is a commonality that occurs when the embryo fails to fully split between male and female during gestation. It might be of use to visit the new Tiger Canyon blog for future exciting updates and upcoming insightful posts on all the tigers...tigersafariafrica.com

    les_native
    @naomiroebert thank you for the clarification. Now, do you have any idea why the white tigress Tibo was allowed to mate and subsequently produce offspring with her own son? Varty says that the resulting offspring, two white cubs and one normal cub, will be sterilized and not allowed to mate in the future. But what if Varty changes his mind? Why are these highly inbred individuals even allowed to exist? This does nothing for conservation.
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Sanju Offline
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Scroll or Swipe right to see more images about the deed.

Lots of commotion as wild white tiger cub catches a baboon at Tiger Canyon.

http://www.tigercanyon.com
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Sanju Offline
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The leopard of Tiger canyons Huh 

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smedz Offline
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I like the idea of rewilding tigers, but why do they have to do this in Africa instead of Asia?
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Sanju Offline
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( This post was last modified: 03-28-2019, 05:01 PM by Sanju )

(03-28-2019, 03:02 AM)smedz Wrote: I like the idea of rewilding tigers, but why do they have to do this in Africa instead of Asia?
Actually his plan is to do in India but no such permissions are entertained by the government. South Africa is ideal in Conservation business around the world. His idea is Asia's every corner is crawling with poachers due to those ******* Chinese demand but in South Africa these is no such problem in the "private reserves". His dream is also to release them into natural reserves alongside lions and other animals but govt put it in pending. (His dream is to see lions, tigers, leopard and cheetahs in same area. I talked to him about kuno lion reintroduction during CDV issue in Gir when he was supporting to do it.)

So, he's running separate private park which are left sheep farms in Karoo near Philippolis free state province away from natural wilderness and recovering them into ecosystems and ecologically restoring and benefiting the balance by reintroducing natural prey and cheetah which is locally extinct and conserving tigers as apex predators which is self sustaining population outside Asia as a "species". If any catastrophe or poaching perishes asia's wild population (already extinction is occurring and wouldn't take too many years for finish off completely), these wild stock can be readily reintroduced.
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Virgin Islands, U.S. Rage2277 Offline
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africa and asia are the same landmass @smedz
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Sanju Offline
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(03-28-2019, 09:44 AM)Rage2277 Wrote: africa and asia are the same landmass
Fantastic Like
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Virgin Islands, U.S. Rage2277 Offline
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India sanjay Offline
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Nice video, But where is real tiger Hunt?
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Sanju Offline
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*This image is copyright of its original author


Tiger cubs with karoo springbok in Tiger canyons.

Credit @eden.is.everywhere
LorEden
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Sanju Offline
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Old Panna



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Tiger rubs, Oria and Khumba have 3 young cubs carefully hidden in a den amongst the rocks. LorEden.

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Oria and her cubs, Tiger Canyon

LorEden.


Ussuri and her cubs Tiger Canyon.


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Tibo & Bird, Tiger Canyon. LorEden




Ussuri and her cub, Tiger Canyon LorEden



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Tibo patrolling her territory. 





Grumpy Bird

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