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Jaguars of Brazil - Dynamics,Lifestyle,Datas,Studies,Reports
Jaguars of Brazil - Dynamics,Lifestyle,Datas,Studies,Reports
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Jaguars of Brazil - Dynamics,Lifestyle,Datas,Studies,Reports
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 (11-10-2020, 02:33 AM)Rage2277 Wrote:(11-10-2020, 02:10 AM)Shadow Wrote:the footage coudn't be anymore clear as to what occurred there isn't anything missing not sure what you're looking for..i guess in their minds and yours the youngsters not leaving and edno casually walking off marking as he goes is him backing out or that this interaction was some sort of victory for the subadults.(11-10-2020, 01:52 AM)Rage2277 Wrote: there's no conspiracy here, no blank spots what happened in the vid is exactly what i stated before, he dominated two subadults and left the area it's nothing extraordinary and out of the norm..like at what point did he ran this just shows how inaccurate google translate can be he was literally shown swimming across the river to engage made his message clear, a went on his way i can't believe there was even a debate of what happened to begin with this was so easy to deduce, even with the prior limited footage. I hope to see whole incident and see what happens. It´s actually that simple. I don´t really care who wins or not or is it a stalemate of a kind. Of course when two different people who were there write in a way, that they are surprised to see siblings hold ground it´s interesting and it would be interesting to see if there is something to justify such claim in some way or not. Now it looks like that this guide and that photographer made quite controversial, if not totally false, claims while stating siblings as victors. But to show an example why it´s always interesting to see more than a few seconds from here and there, here is one brutal fight of two male lions. If seeing only 5 seconds from start and then a few seconds from the end, it would be easy to say that "a small skirmish" between brothers.... But when seeing more it´s easy to see that this was quite nasty fight and both have been sore for some time afterwards. If taking for instance glimpses from 0:40-0:43 and then 6:34-6:38 it could be claimed, that bigger lion quickly asserted dominance... And that´s why I dislike to see just short glimpses from here and there.  (11-10-2020, 02:51 AM)Shadow Wrote:the incident with edno and the youngsters was a brief encounter there's nothing more to it..unlike this lion fight which wasn't that brief even still you can get a good picture of what's happening or what happened before they engaged they could have been sitting around for hours before not doing anything most people won't film that this one is where they start fighting(11-10-2020, 02:33 AM)Rage2277 Wrote:(11-10-2020, 02:10 AM)Shadow Wrote:the footage coudn't be anymore clear as to what occurred there isn't anything missing not sure what you're looking for..i guess in their minds and yours the youngsters not leaving and edno casually walking off marking as he goes is him backing out or that this interaction was some sort of victory for the subadults.(11-10-2020, 01:52 AM)Rage2277 Wrote: there's no conspiracy here, no blank spots what happened in the vid is exactly what i stated before, he dominated two subadults and left the area it's nothing extraordinary and out of the norm..like at what point did he ran this just shows how inaccurate google translate can be he was literally shown swimming across the river to engage made his message clear, a went on his way i can't believe there was even a debate of what happened to begin with this was so easy to deduce, even with the prior limited footage. (11-10-2020, 04:16 AM)Rage2277 Wrote:(11-10-2020, 02:51 AM)Shadow Wrote:the incident with edno and the youngsters was a brief encounter there's nothing more to it..unlike this lion fight which wasn't that brief even still you can get a good picture of what's happening or what happened before they engaged they could have been sitting around for hours before not doing anything most people won't film that this one is where they start fighting(11-10-2020, 02:33 AM)Rage2277 Wrote:(11-10-2020, 02:10 AM)Shadow Wrote:the footage coudn't be anymore clear as to what occurred there isn't anything missing not sure what you're looking for..i guess in their minds and yours the youngsters not leaving and edno casually walking off marking as he goes is him backing out or that this interaction was some sort of victory for the subadults.(11-10-2020, 01:52 AM)Rage2277 Wrote: there's no conspiracy here, no blank spots what happened in the vid is exactly what i stated before, he dominated two subadults and left the area it's nothing extraordinary and out of the norm..like at what point did he ran this just shows how inaccurate google translate can be he was literally shown swimming across the river to engage made his message clear, a went on his way i can't believe there was even a debate of what happened to begin with this was so easy to deduce, even with the prior limited footage. Well, I hope to see more from this siblings/Edno case for the reasons I told no matter what you think. I´ve read what you and others write but opinions and speculations aren´t the same as unedited footage which I prefer to see. These clips aren´t enough yet for me to make final conclusions. Was that thing with Edno and siblings for instance short encounter or did it last 5-10 minutes etc. If you are satisfied, it´s good for you, but I have still curiosity left to see more and see if there was anything to justify what people wrote. (11-10-2020, 04:35 AM)Shadow Wrote:well keep waiting for this mystery footage you think is out there of this dominant male running from two much younger animals because there is none it's not what i think or what i speculate it's what i know this is so basic to deduce at what point was there running at beginning when he's swimming across or at the end when he's leaving literally marking without a care in the world? it's funny how this simple incident seems so mind blowing to you yet you casually believe clearly fabricated ridiculous claims of wild boar and tigers fighting and dropping dead inches from each other among other outlandish fabricated occurrences the tiger supposedly killing a lion with a swipe is impossible to you but something just as ridiculous a lion supposedly breaking a tiger's arm with a swipe is somehow real in your world.(11-10-2020, 04:16 AM)Rage2277 Wrote:(11-10-2020, 02:51 AM)Shadow Wrote:the incident with edno and the youngsters was a brief encounter there's nothing more to it..unlike this lion fight which wasn't that brief even still you can get a good picture of what's happening or what happened before they engaged they could have been sitting around for hours before not doing anything most people won't film that this one is where they start fighting(11-10-2020, 02:33 AM)Rage2277 Wrote:(11-10-2020, 02:10 AM)Shadow Wrote:the footage coudn't be anymore clear as to what occurred there isn't anything missing not sure what you're looking for..i guess in their minds and yours the youngsters not leaving and edno casually walking off marking as he goes is him backing out or that this interaction was some sort of victory for the subadults.(11-10-2020, 01:52 AM)Rage2277 Wrote: there's no conspiracy here, no blank spots what happened in the vid is exactly what i stated before, he dominated two subadults and left the area it's nothing extraordinary and out of the norm..like at what point did he ran this just shows how inaccurate google translate can be he was literally shown swimming across the river to engage made his message clear, a went on his way i can't believe there was even a debate of what happened to begin with this was so easy to deduce, even with the prior limited footage. (11-10-2020, 05:48 AM)Rage2277 Wrote:(11-10-2020, 04:35 AM)Shadow Wrote:well keep waiting for this mystery footage you think is out there of this dominant male running from two much younger animals because there is none it's not what i think or what i speculate it's what i know this is so basic to deduce at what point was there running at beginning when he's swimming across or at the end when he's leaving literally marking without a care in the world? it's funny how this simple incident seems so mind blowing to you yet you casually believe clearly fabricated ridiculous claims of wild boar and tigers fighting and dropping dead inches from each other among other outlandish fabricated occurrences the tiger supposedly killing a lion with a swipe is impossible to you but something just as ridiculous a lion supposedly breaking a tiger's arm with a swipe is somehow real in your world.(11-10-2020, 04:16 AM)Rage2277 Wrote:(11-10-2020, 02:51 AM)Shadow Wrote:the incident with edno and the youngsters was a brief encounter there's nothing more to it..unlike this lion fight which wasn't that brief even still you can get a good picture of what's happening or what happened before they engaged they could have been sitting around for hours before not doing anything most people won't film that this one is where they start fighting(11-10-2020, 02:33 AM)Rage2277 Wrote:(11-10-2020, 02:10 AM)Shadow Wrote:the footage coudn't be anymore clear as to what occurred there isn't anything missing not sure what you're looking for..i guess in their minds and yours the youngsters not leaving and edno casually walking off marking as he goes is him backing out or that this interaction was some sort of victory for the subadults.(11-10-2020, 01:52 AM)Rage2277 Wrote: there's no conspiracy here, no blank spots what happened in the vid is exactly what i stated before, he dominated two subadults and left the area it's nothing extraordinary and out of the norm..like at what point did he ran this just shows how inaccurate google translate can be he was literally shown swimming across the river to engage made his message clear, a went on his way i can't believe there was even a debate of what happened to begin with this was so easy to deduce, even with the prior limited footage. It´s the thing what is many times difficult for people to understand in many forums, that there are different points of views, not just one. There is no mystery footage, just missing footage and from this case it seems to come out in pieces, one clip from here and other there. Overall discussion often goes to yes-no discussion, while there are people who are very passionate/obsessed what comes to certain animals. It leads to situations, that people believe for instance it, that tigers would kill adult rhinos based on told stories and some photos of carcasses. But when same sources tell, that wild boars have managed to kill tigers it´s considered fabricated rubbish by people who then believe those rhino cases with no criticism. Then again it seems to be difficult for people to focus and look what is written, when emotions start to take over. While I´m interested to find out all what happened you focus to take it as absolute disagreement against it, that Edno did good. Which are after all two different things. It´s common problem in different threads, that people don´t read too carefully what is said or they misunderstand on purpose. I don´t know which one is worse option, but discussions go to odd directions many times. Nowadays for instance jaguar-leopard "debates" start to be as toxic as lion-tiger have been in past. Then you make claim, that I would believe, that a lion would have broken tigers arm with one swipe. I might have to look again how I wrote, but I don´t think that I have said so. I do believe, that at Dubai lion broke forelimb of a tiger, but with one swipe... hardly. But lion might have bitten so, that bone fractured. Also when two big cats "wrestle" many things can happen. So I do believe, that during fight lion caused that injury for a tiger, but I haven´t seen anyone telling clearly how it happened. And yes, tiger killing a lion with one swipe is something what I don´t take too seriously and as I have said, I wonder if it´s even theoretically possible, when looking at anatomy of a lion. It´s something I don´t know. And I add, that now I mean cutting some vein with one swipe so, that bleeding to death. So I do disagree with you in it, that I don´t see ridiculous rubbish in every place you see. I try to avoid making too big conclusions too quickly. So all in all, this incident isn´t mind blowing, but it´s interesting. I think, that I´m not the only one who would like to see all footage available and able to see if any justification to it, what that guide wrote and what that photographer wrote. Now it looks like, that both wrote in very different way than reality was. When thinking of credibility of guides it would be nice to see if there was at any point some fight or were these few swipes and false attacks really all there was. Some issues were now off the topic, but maybe worth to discuss a bit. No-one here can expect, that all posters would see everything in same way always. Animal behavior is always interesting and room for some speculation remains very often. But it´s not so serious. 
As I mentioned on my post #201 related to this case BEFORE he released the whole videos, at one moment I mentioned on that post ''I think we cannot get into deep conclusions out of very few cut off seconds of video interactions and since it was said Edno got chased its surprising and interesting but I still don't think he was going all out on that interaction''
back then part of it was based on the ''Edno run away'' based on what the IG poster said to his friend before he posted the whole thing. However his own videos proved him wrong as the next ones showing the beginning and the ending of this conflict Edno didn't run in any moment from Daryl and Constantine. His written portuguese on his answer had a few mistakes and he referred Daryl and Constantine as ''O casal'' which means ''The couple''. So I am gonna translate these and explain within parentheses what he really meant. ''The couple put/made the male that arrived to run, Dude and the male (Edno) was much bigger than the male (Daryl) that was with the female (Constantine).''  *This image is copyright of its original author Even then I still took his claim with a grain of salt until the whole interaction was revealed cause I knew Edno wasn't going all out as I mentioned on my post #201 which was further shown on his next videos disproved his own claim of ''Edno run away''. @Shadow Despite him saying Edno ''ran away'' his interpretation was different from what was shown from his own videos so far, sometimes people takes different interpretations of certain situations, if he thinks Edno walking away while scent marking after showing dominance over Daryl and Constantine is ''run away'', he got a whole different perception of what running away in that situation is than me and when asked by his friend in the peak of the moment he probably got carried away and told it like that to his friend most likely to give some credits to Daryl and Constantine since by the time he said this the video of Edno scent marking and walking away wasn't yet posted by him, he was still holding the whole thing. Otherwise he is yet to show another part of this interaction to prove his previous claim of Edno running away from Daryl and Constantine which I think it won't be the case. So lets wait his further posts to see it even though I think its a wrapped up case. Here you can see a woman commenting on his last video a question about the belly up position behavior but at same time she mentions what most of us here think happened and in no moment the IG poster on his answer disputed her claim on Edno's dominance and walking away claim of hers, he only replies about the belly up position. So again, I am gonna translate these and explain within parentheses what they really meant. ''Guys. Doesn't this turning the belly-up position indicate submission to cats? I thought they (Daryl and Constantine) acknowledged his (Edno's) strength and he moved on calmly/nonchalantly and scent marked the territory there at the exit (when leaving)... wasn't it? These reconfigurations of territories will be crazy/madness.''  *This image is copyright of its original author After that bellow you'll see she tags herself saying ''Asking it just to try to understand it'' (about the case) Then the IG poster only answers her about the belly up position. ''I think that with its back turned to the ground is an way to keep its guard.... to not give (expose) its nape to get bitten.''  *This image is copyright of its original author Then in the continuation (check his IG page and see) he says right bellow his answer that '''its what he thinks (just his opinion)'' then she says ''its interesting'' and ''she will do research on it'' then other people join in the discussion giving their thoughts on the belly up behavior. As you can see in no moment the poster disputed the woman's thoughts on Edno's dominance and walking away scent marking. Also if he posted the whole thing in just one video this whole divergence of thoughts would've probably been lesser but instead he decided to ''cut it all into peaces'' starting from the middle of the conflict. So @Shadow from your point of view over those videos isn't it a little strange him saying Edno ''ran'' but on his own videos such thing doesn't happen? I bet you still waiting for more videos to come in order ''to complete this puzzle'' but I still don't think this is gonna be the case. So lets all wait his next posts on his page but for me the conflict seemed to be finished from the last video and from the IG poster's claim he interpreted the situation on a different way than we did. (or not) (11-10-2020, 11:51 AM)Dark Jaguar Wrote: As I mentioned on my post #201 related to this case BEFORE he released the whole videos, at one moment I mentioned on that post ''I think we cannot get into deep conclusions out of very few cut off seconds of video interactions and since it was said Edno got chased its surprising and interesting but I still don't think he was going all out on that interaction'' To put shortly. What comes to it, what can be seen on video clips so far and what this guide wrote it´s quite clear that Edno didn´t run away. Nor did he flee in some way beaten really, it was quite calm walking away. But text was and is what it is and it created questions naturally because it looked odd in comparison with available videos and photos at that point. And contradictions in between written text and what is available to be seen in photos or video footages are always creating questions. I did see that other discussion too and that woman asked naturally a valid question. I also see going to lie on his/her back as submissive and defensive position at the same time. Especially solitary cats like jaguars and tigers do it all the time, when they show submission and try to avoid fight, while still being ready to desperate struggle if forced to do so by dominant attacker. It´s just natural that no-one wants to get killed or injured without defending even when submitting. It´s pretty clear that dominant individual stay standing or walks around while submissive one goes down, lions do the same even though there the one in trouble often sit as they do especially when there are more than one opponents. Still dominant/most confident one is the one walking there while submissive tends to stay still and cautious. Based on what have been seen so far in this case, it looks like to be so, as I have said after seeing more footage, that this guide and photographer have given pretty inaccurate and even false description of this event. But as I have said and you assumed, I wait still with interest if this whole incident could be seen at some point to fill all gaps to have final conclusion. Because if this so far was all, calling this even a fight is an exaggeration. This is already a good example how written text can give a very different impression from events when comparing to reality. Question remaining now is more or less it, that was there any fight at all at some point or was this all just a few false attacks and dominant/submissive postures/gestures. My two main things concerning this incident have been firstly to compare what has been said by people seeing this thing, when it happened and what can be seen in different recordings. Secondly to see all available material to make own conclusions based on it, what can be seen. And bit by bit both issues have became clearer. This translation issue is then what it is and I suggest that people do as I do often, when something is controversial or starts to look odd. Ask from someone not involved to discussions here if you know people abroad. Send just the text and see what you get back. And ask if that text can be understood in more than one way. Then it´s easier to look at things while making conclusions.
Male Jaguar Ignores Kill
https://oncafarijaguarproject.wordpress....ores-kill/ We found the carcass of a young cow in the early hours whilst out on a drive. With seemingly no cat around, we approached the kill to investigate. It was very clear where the Jaguar had sunk its teeth into the vertebrae of the cow. Jaguars have the strongest bite of all felids, capable of biting down with tremendous pressure. They say that they possess twice the strength of a lion and the second strongest of all mammals after the Spotted Hyena. After investigating the puncture wounds I could see first hand the remarkable power of these cats. We took notes and photographs and placed an infrared camera trap nearby to the carcass. Firstly, we wanted to see if the Jaguar would return to the fresh carcass, and secondly which Jaguar had been responsible for this latest kill. We returned late that night to see if we would get a first hand view of the cat in question. Wet conditions, however, made the approach very difficult and we soon were bogged down in the mud. We decided to let the camera trap do its job. We returned the next day to retrieve the memory card from the camera trap. The carcass had been fed on and dragged a couple of meters away. Fresh tracks of a female Jaguar indicated that we had probably missed her by a few hours. The short sequences of video captured by the camera trap tell a fascinating story. During the course of the night a large male Jaguar, known by the project as Fantasma (Ghost), appears out of the dark. He confidently walks past the kill with little interest in the fresh carcass; he barely even acknowledges that it is there! Roughly two and a half hours later and a female Jaguar, known as Esperança (Hope) arrives. She ultimately drags the carcass away and feeds. This leads me to believe it was this female who killed the cow in the first place. She can be told in the videos by the presence of a radio collar. This collar was fitted back in October 2012 and allows us to use telemetry to give us an idea of her position. The habitat in which she uses is so difficult to navigate through, that this collar allows us a sneak peak into her secretive life. Below you can view the video sequence captured by the camera trap. Please note that the fence in view is a cattle fence and does NOT impede the movements of the Jaguar. The reason for the large male ignoring a perfectly good meal astounds me. In all my experience with big cats around the world I have never seen a cat show no interest at all in available fresh meat. I have seen them sniff around and decide the meat was not to their liking or too old. I have also seen cats try to locate a kill by smell and narrowly miss the position, but I have never seen a cat simply find a kill and show no interest in it…not even sniff around or paw at the skin! Yet again, another fascinating bit of behaviour being uncovered by the Oncafari team, based here in the Pantanal at Caiman Ecological Refuge. We would love to hear any comments or theories as to why he may have simply walked on by. Photograph of Fantasma at Caiman Ecological Refuge (September 2012) – Diogo Lucatelli credits: Diogo Lucatelli  *This image is copyright of its original author Written by Adam Bannister Photograph by Diogo Lucatelli Camera trap: Projeto Oncafari  (11-12-2020, 04:16 AM)Dark Jaguar Wrote: Male Jaguar Ignores Kill Fantasma was a tank, he looked nearly as big as the cow laying on the ground, no wonder the Londolozi trackers stated he was as big as lionesses they've seen back in South Africa. This begs the question, what do you think of the possibility of a very large male like Ghost or Edno taking down a feral buffalo? I asked the JID for their opinion and she said this:  *This image is copyright of its original author We know that smaller jaguars have been able to take down domestic buffaloes, and I'm aware feral ones are a different ball game. Perhaps jaguars have no interest in risking a hunt because they have so much more easier prey at large numbers on their disposal at Porto Jofre, and I'm sure the nature of these buffaloes to live in groups and protect each other plays a role as well.  (11-12-2020, 04:42 AM)Balam Wrote:Paulo told me the same, he hates the buffalo because they kill Jaguar cubs.(11-12-2020, 04:16 AM)Dark Jaguar Wrote: Male Jaguar Ignores Kill I just don't see a Jag wanting to tangle with one of these guys if it doesn't have to  *This image is copyright of its original author
(11-12-2020, 04:42 AM)Balam Wrote:(11-12-2020, 04:16 AM)Dark Jaguar Wrote: Male Jaguar Ignores Kill With their natural preys available in abundance they won't feel the need to risk for the big games (feral buffalos) but on the other hand the predations on feral pigs (monteiro pig) is a different story as jaguars in Miranda south pantanal have been controlling the population of those feral pigs there even with their natural 2 pecaries variants preys available. Its not as tough as a feral buffalo but I wouldn't say its an easy prey either.
Julien Boulé
https://julienboule.com/2020/05/11/369/ ''We really enjoyed watching those jaguars (although it was scorching hot) but had to move and go to Carmindo and Maria’s place, a lovely and funny couple, 2 friends of Julinho. The idea was to camp there! It was far away from Porto Jofre (2 hours boat ride) we had to slalom in the meanders of the Cuiaba river but on the way, suddenly right in front of us we came across a big and lovely surprise to see another couple of jaguars but this time clearly a mating couple! But the female was apparently not too comfortable with our presence and forced the male to get away in the foliages. Julinho got a great idea to make like if we were leaving the place, drive a little upstream, stop the engine, let the boat drift gently back to the initial place were we saw them. When coming close to the beach, we first heard them growling and we were able to see them for a little while. Still the female was unhappy and started to growl at us and move in the opposite direction. She was apparently quite old with a marking white face and a big fold on the belly!''  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author
Houdini male Esturrando while asleep.
onçafari ''Have you ever seen jaguars having "nightmares"? We recorded this rare scene with our camera traps! In the video Houdini one of the males we follow here seems to be in the middle of a restless sleep!'' VIDEO
Amazing footage via drone at around 70m high and 100m away from the animals on a pantanal jaguar stalking 2 capybaras
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