There is a world somewhere between reality and fiction. Although ignored by many, it is very real and so are those living in it. This forum is about the natural world. Here, wild animals will be heard and respected. The forum offers a glimpse into an unknown world as well as a room with a view on the present and the future. Anyone able to speak on behalf of those living in the emerald forest and the deep blue sea is invited to join.
(11-04-2020, 12:35 AM)Rage2277 Wrote: i don't see why jaguars not being used to or lions being used used to dealing with multiple opponents matters it isn't a fight the lone one will always lose anyway if both decide to go for it but youngsters will usually give way to adults even if they out number them as with lions and it's the same with other bigcats, though big lion baba yao tried to bully the younger salas boys that didn't go to good for him..either way edno made it clear he's the boss he didn't have to kill them.
What comes to lions, they are naturally more familiar to face multiple opponents and not too confused to be in such situation. In some cases they have been told to take risk on purpose while trying to intimidate opponents away even when outnumbered. One maybe extreme example Mr. T mapogo was known to make bold moves.
Then again I think, that jaguars and other big cats aren´t as used to such situations. Is it true or false, who knows, but it is one thing which I think about when thinking about it, that why Edno was told to be run away or chased away or kicked away. Or was it?
You think, that Edno made clear, that he´s the boss, but if he escaped it´s another story. Then again even if he got intimidated, siblings might have been too despite one time victory. Personally I haven´t made up my mind what comes to this incident and I hope that more information comes up so, that it could be better understood what happened. Are the descriptions spot on or not etc.
Also this is one good example of one thing. Often is discussed how guides know what happens etc. Here we have a guide saying, that big male jaguar ran away from fight... and now looks like, that he doesn´t get too much credibility here. I find it interesting too. Then again I´ve always been a bit careful with guides etc. They can put some color to things and that is one thing why I hope to see more footage. Especially because now guide isn´t only one, who was there at place, suggesting, that siblings did good in this confrontation.
(11-01-2020, 03:19 AM)Balam Wrote: @Dark Jaguar check the intraspecific conflicts thread, i posted two videos of the interaction. Overall I second everything you said.
The two siblings are only 15 months in age, probably just gained independence from their mother, Susanna female.
The dynamics involving the formation of coalitions by jaguars is extremely interesting and understudied. Jaguars remain, alongside snow leopards, the most understudied of the felids within the genus Panthera and interactions like this just keep showing how much we still have to know about them.
@Balam I didn't know about the videos thanks for letting me know.
Now that I saw the 2 videos and despite them being too short I see that Edno is clearly the one that is messing around with both over there, Edno is the confident cat on that situation, the siblings seems way more anxious and concerned about Edno's presence than otherwise, all the siblings can do is to get defensive and Edno is the one approaching them and pushing the fight and he is always the one striking and smacking them first whereas the siblings don't have another choice but to fight back the big male. Also as Edno calms down and stops a little bit with the aggressions you can see the whole enviornment also calms down since Edno is the trouble maker of that interaction and is the one starting the whole conflict over the defensive youngsters.
I think we cannot get into deep conclusions out of very few cut off seconds of video interactions and since it was said Edno got chased its surprising and interesting but I still don't think he was going all out on that interaction and by that outcome I can rule out the possibility of his mating intentions over the young female because if that was the case, the outcome of that encounter could've been way more intense.
Thats how I interpreted that situation in those short videos.
I add a bit here since this incident had a lot of comments. What you wrote here are the obvious things which anyone who knows anything about animal behavior can see and understand. I mean it, that Edno was offensive and siblings would have loved to be left alone, not willingly fighting against bigger opponent. It´s a no-brainer and alone nothing too interesting really. It happens all the time in wild, more dominant individual bullies other.
What I find interesting is, that despite facing such threat, neither of the siblings didn´t leave the place leaving other one to face the threat alone. Usually males fight and winner then mates with female. Twist here was the bond which siblings seemed to have and interesting thing is, that what kind of role it played in this incident or did it? And did Edno feel in some way, that if going full force against one, that he could be attacked by other? Usually males don´t need to worry about such while fighting another male.
There is now some material from two different sources and main story is, that Edno approached, but after some fight/aggressive encounters left. I showed Portuguese texts from guide who filmed video to two Brazilian people I know. Both gave translation, that siblings made Edno to run away even though he was much bigger than other male. I didn´t say it in the first place, because I wanted to see what kind of translations are offered from others and are those honest translations. That guide used some slang there, which my friends explained to me and obviously it was the reason why google translation couldn´t give proper translation to all text.
All in all, from these photos and two short clips, just as you said, can´t be seen too much. The most interesting part isn´t there and it would be the last minute or two and what happened there. Also this photographer said, that siblings "won the war". Even if they won "psychological warfare" by refusing to leave other one to face Edno alone and maybe confusing Edno in that way, it´s very interesting. Not it, that people repeat the obvious, that Edno was the biggest and strongest individual out of these three and at least in the beginning most confident and maybe even in the end too (anyone can see it easily), but still for some reason not confident enough to finish what it started. Or at least it looks like to be so, when reading what people who were there tell.
Hopefully more information and video footage comes up in future. A bit odd, that only two short clips now, I doubt that they couldn´t film it all.
What I said is indeed the obvious and so what?
in your post #187 you said ''These are wild animals, which aren´t known to be able to think like us'' isn't it the obvious too??
My first thought about the conflict when I didn't even know about the videos existence was based on a photographer's comment on Balam's post, the photographer said the young female fought Edno all the time, when I watched the videos it wasn't the case and the young male was as involved in the conflict as the female so I changed my mind on my opinion and as I said the youngsters making Edno run away was ''surprising and interesting'' meaning the siblings did a good job standing their ground but I still think if Edno really wanted it, that conflict could've been more intense for the siblings regardless if he was outnumbered, its my opinion its simple as that.
And there's no twist about the siblings bond here, jaguars specially relative ones can stick together and bond themselves as coalition for a while until they reach certain age they shall separate but their bond still stands as adults that some tolerate themselves to a certain degree, we got the youngsters coalition who just separated Bororo and Xando along with others Oreia and Grandão, Peter and Gage, if these jaguars together as youngsters felt cornered or threatened by an unknown offensive big one, their reaction could be running away but also I don't rule out they could fight back as a bond but most of the times they are aware enough to not mess with dominant jaguars so they will get confident first by avoiding these conflicts.
You also said in one of your previous posts that jaguars aren't used to these types of 2-1 conflict situations which is not completely true, these conflicts between jaguars occurs in some occasions obviously no where near as usual as lions but it still happen. The problem is that jaguars are the most elusive of the big cats and its not easy to catch up with these cats and projects who follow these animals don't show many jaguar interactions to the public, Onçafari got quite a few but for some reason won't show us.
The footage bellow is another 2-1 conflict situation amongst jaguars that took place in South Pantanal provided by CENAP/ICMBio. In the Pantanal with such high density of jaguars in the area situations like these happens.
*This image is copyright of its original author
And again I am not saying this happens ALL THE TIME but its not as unusual as some may think and most people don't know it cause its either isn't captured by cameras or aren't released to the public. Jaguars are the most elusive cats for a reason.
and yes I agree about they could've filmed the whole thing on the Edno conflict.
Now this discussion starts to go to the direction I was hoping to in the beginning :) And it´s discussing about it what happened there really and what might have been reason why Edno retreated as is suggested by the people who saw it. Not talking about obvious things only, I poked a bit on purpose there in hope to get discussion to this direction.
I´m interested about twists and here was that twist which isn´t seen often unless talking about lions and that is 2-1. There are some cases obviously, but I still dare to say that jaguars aren´t used to 2-1 situations so much. So it´s interesting thing to look closer it, that what kind of examples there are and how often young siblings hold their ground or do they. Pity that your clip is very short too and not showing more than a glimpse.
While lions are used to fight against more than one opponent it´s not easy for them either. So for less experienced to that kind of situations, like jaguars, it´s easy to think that even more difficult. And it could have some effect and explain why Edno was the one leaving in this latest case and making people who know jaguars surprised. I assume, that jaguar guides there know something. Most elusive, some say that leopards are but I guess that it´s more about preference and environment, in jungle environment both are elusive.
The clip is short but yet long enough to prove my point and you do realise the video was cut off during the conflict right.
Its funny how you ''confidently'' claim to ''poke a bit'' and claim I said the obvious thing but at same time you also make sure to always emphasize the obvious bringing up lions like ''While lions are used to fight against more than one opponent it´s not easy for them either.'' as if I stated lions weren't able to do what you said just cause I mentioned the intraespecific conflicts of jaguars isn't as usual as lions haha. I already expected that kinda reaction.
My opinion regarding the Edno conflict still stands.
Yes, I poked and nice that now some discussion about that unexpected outcome of this incident. What comes to that video you shared, is there any longer one from it? It would be very interesting to see more from it too. The more footage from other same kind of incidents might open up a bit what might have happened in this "siblings-Edno" incident.
No thats all they showed cut off, it was during interview of CENAP/ICMBio all about jaguars while footages they witnessed displayed in the background
My bet is those were 3 females involved one of which appears to be Esperança (the collared one on the left).
As I said for some reason projects will hold most of these interactions videos and won't show them completely.
(11-01-2020, 03:19 AM)Balam Wrote: @Dark Jaguar check the intraspecific conflicts thread, i posted two videos of the interaction. Overall I second everything you said.
The two siblings are only 15 months in age, probably just gained independence from their mother, Susanna female.
The dynamics involving the formation of coalitions by jaguars is extremely interesting and understudied. Jaguars remain, alongside snow leopards, the most understudied of the felids within the genus Panthera and interactions like this just keep showing how much we still have to know about them.
@Balam I didn't know about the videos thanks for letting me know.
Now that I saw the 2 videos and despite them being too short I see that Edno is clearly the one that is messing around with both over there, Edno is the confident cat on that situation, the siblings seems way more anxious and concerned about Edno's presence than otherwise, all the siblings can do is to get defensive and Edno is the one approaching them and pushing the fight and he is always the one striking and smacking them first whereas the siblings don't have another choice but to fight back the big male. Also as Edno calms down and stops a little bit with the aggressions you can see the whole enviornment also calms down since Edno is the trouble maker of that interaction and is the one starting the whole conflict over the defensive youngsters.
I think we cannot get into deep conclusions out of very few cut off seconds of video interactions and since it was said Edno got chased its surprising and interesting but I still don't think he was going all out on that interaction and by that outcome I can rule out the possibility of his mating intentions over the young female because if that was the case, the outcome of that encounter could've been way more intense.
Thats how I interpreted that situation in those short videos.
I add a bit here since this incident had a lot of comments. What you wrote here are the obvious things which anyone who knows anything about animal behavior can see and understand. I mean it, that Edno was offensive and siblings would have loved to be left alone, not willingly fighting against bigger opponent. It´s a no-brainer and alone nothing too interesting really. It happens all the time in wild, more dominant individual bullies other.
What I find interesting is, that despite facing such threat, neither of the siblings didn´t leave the place leaving other one to face the threat alone. Usually males fight and winner then mates with female. Twist here was the bond which siblings seemed to have and interesting thing is, that what kind of role it played in this incident or did it? And did Edno feel in some way, that if going full force against one, that he could be attacked by other? Usually males don´t need to worry about such while fighting another male.
There is now some material from two different sources and main story is, that Edno approached, but after some fight/aggressive encounters left. I showed Portuguese texts from guide who filmed video to two Brazilian people I know. Both gave translation, that siblings made Edno to run away even though he was much bigger than other male. I didn´t say it in the first place, because I wanted to see what kind of translations are offered from others and are those honest translations. That guide used some slang there, which my friends explained to me and obviously it was the reason why google translation couldn´t give proper translation to all text.
All in all, from these photos and two short clips, just as you said, can´t be seen too much. The most interesting part isn´t there and it would be the last minute or two and what happened there. Also this photographer said, that siblings "won the war". Even if they won "psychological warfare" by refusing to leave other one to face Edno alone and maybe confusing Edno in that way, it´s very interesting. Not it, that people repeat the obvious, that Edno was the biggest and strongest individual out of these three and at least in the beginning most confident and maybe even in the end too (anyone can see it easily), but still for some reason not confident enough to finish what it started. Or at least it looks like to be so, when reading what people who were there tell.
Hopefully more information and video footage comes up in future. A bit odd, that only two short clips now, I doubt that they couldn´t film it all.
What I said is indeed the obvious and so what?
in your post #187 you said ''These are wild animals, which aren´t known to be able to think like us'' isn't it the obvious too??
My first thought about the conflict when I didn't even know about the videos existence was based on a photographer's comment on Balam's post, the photographer said the young female fought Edno all the time, when I watched the videos it wasn't the case and the young male was as involved in the conflict as the female so I changed my mind on my opinion and as I said the youngsters making Edno run away was ''surprising and interesting'' meaning the siblings did a good job standing their ground but I still think if Edno really wanted it, that conflict could've been more intense for the siblings regardless if he was outnumbered, its my opinion its simple as that.
And there's no twist about the siblings bond here, jaguars specially relative ones can stick together and bond themselves as coalition for a while until they reach certain age they shall separate but their bond still stands as adults that some tolerate themselves to a certain degree, we got the youngsters coalition who just separated Bororo and Xando along with others Oreia and Grandão, Peter and Gage, if these jaguars together as youngsters felt cornered or threatened by an unknown offensive big one, their reaction could be running away but also I don't rule out they could fight back as a bond but most of the times they are aware enough to not mess with dominant jaguars so they will get confident first by avoiding these conflicts.
You also said in one of your previous posts that jaguars aren't used to these types of 2-1 conflict situations which is not completely true, these conflicts between jaguars occurs in some occasions obviously no where near as usual as lions but it still happen. The problem is that jaguars are the most elusive of the big cats and its not easy to catch up with these cats and projects who follow these animals don't show many jaguar interactions to the public, Onçafari got quite a few but for some reason won't show us.
The footage bellow is another 2-1 conflict situation amongst jaguars that took place in South Pantanal provided by CENAP/ICMBio. In the Pantanal with such high density of jaguars in the area situations like these happens.
*This image is copyright of its original author
And again I am not saying this happens ALL THE TIME but its not as unusual as some may think and most people don't know it cause its either isn't captured by cameras or aren't released to the public. Jaguars are the most elusive cats for a reason.
and yes I agree about they could've filmed the whole thing on the Edno conflict.
Now this discussion starts to go to the direction I was hoping to in the beginning :) And it´s discussing about it what happened there really and what might have been reason why Edno retreated as is suggested by the people who saw it. Not talking about obvious things only, I poked a bit on purpose there in hope to get discussion to this direction.
I´m interested about twists and here was that twist which isn´t seen often unless talking about lions and that is 2-1. There are some cases obviously, but I still dare to say that jaguars aren´t used to 2-1 situations so much. So it´s interesting thing to look closer it, that what kind of examples there are and how often young siblings hold their ground or do they. Pity that your clip is very short too and not showing more than a glimpse.
While lions are used to fight against more than one opponent it´s not easy for them either. So for less experienced to that kind of situations, like jaguars, it´s easy to think that even more difficult. And it could have some effect and explain why Edno was the one leaving in this latest case and making people who know jaguars surprised. I assume, that jaguar guides there know something. Most elusive, some say that leopards are but I guess that it´s more about preference and environment, in jungle environment both are elusive.
The clip is short but yet long enough to prove my point and you do realise the video was cut off during the conflict right.
Its funny how you ''confidently'' claim to ''poke a bit'' and claim I said the obvious thing but at same time you also make sure to always emphasize the obvious bringing up lions like ''While lions are used to fight against more than one opponent it´s not easy for them either.'' as if I stated lions weren't able to do what you said just cause I mentioned the intraespecific conflicts of jaguars isn't as usual as lions haha. I already expected that kinda reaction.
My opinion regarding the Edno conflict still stands.
Yes, I poked and nice that now some discussion about that unexpected outcome of this incident. What comes to that video you shared, is there any longer one from it? It would be very interesting to see more from it too. The more footage from other same kind of incidents might open up a bit what might have happened in this "siblings-Edno" incident.
No thats all they showed cut off, it was during interview of CENAP/ICMBio all about jaguars while footages they witnessed displayed in the background
My bet is those were 3 females involved one of which appears to be Esperança (the collared one on the left).
As I said for some reason projects will hold most of these interactions videos and won't show them completely.
Pity, that not more available but maybe one day something more comes up. Or some researcher tells more about their observations and conclusions.
11-04-2020, 05:01 PM( This post was last modified: 11-04-2020, 05:06 PM by Dark Jaguar )
UPDATE ON OUSADO MALE AFTER HIS RELEASE BACK INTO THE WILD IN NORTH PANTANAL.
Ousado male who had to be rescued to be taken care with burns on his paws due to the intense fires in Pantanal got released back more than one week ago.
Fernando Tortato explains the importance of the collar that allows them to know his paths, and as Tortato and Ailton Lara found an Anaconda carcass along with his scat. So Ousado spent a while there feeding on the Anaconda kill.
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
Ousado male just a few days before the release. [ when I saw this image of him on TV here, I said ''Yes, my boy is ready to return'' ]
*This image is copyright of its original author
He was taken by a van and boat from Corumbá in Goiás to the region where he lived in the Pantanal of Mato Grosso.
*This image is copyright of its original author
Ousado male being released back in the wild by CENAP/ICMBio reponsible of his reintroduction back to the wild and NEX Institution.
VIDEOS
*This image is copyright of its original author
So Ousado male is doing really good back in the wild but I feel really bad about Amanaci female due to the problems on her claws she won't be able to the reintroduced in the wild.
And about Amanaci female's condition posted yesterday by NEX on how she is doing specially on her paws showing how it was from back in August until now in November.
''Today we did the 30th cleaning and dressing change of our dear Amanaci. Amanaci was rescued from the fires in the Pantanal, with very severe burns (third degree) on her 4 legs, with bone and tendon exposure. Since then, we are taking care of her and doing our best to make her rehabilitation, physical and psychological, happen as soon as possible. Today we did the second laser therapy session (totally free treatment) offered by Dr. @karolinavitorinovet of @mundosilvestre on her paws and the results (healing) are being excellent!
Amanaci will not be able to return to Nature, unfortunately. Her injuries were very extensive and as a consequence, the sequels too. She will be under our care, being very loved and with all the respect that an animal deserves. Continue with us in the cheer for this WARRIOR.''
Young Santi male gave us a fright a few days back but thankfully everything turned out okay.
Reprocom
''Today was a day of great apprehension. We received the mortality signal from the Jaguar Santi, a male that we monitored together with the @passodolontra_parquehotel in the Passo do Lontra region. We thought the animal was dead, because unfortunately jaguars are still poached in the Pantanal. To our surprise and joy Santi was mating with a female and during the wild love it ended up breaking the collar.''
Santi's collar signal.
*This image is copyright of its original author
Santi's broken collar found by Reprocom with claw marks all over the collar.
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
Santi male's capture in April this year, when captured he was estimated to be 2-3 years old and weighed 100 kg.
11-06-2020, 06:31 PM( This post was last modified: 11-06-2020, 06:50 PM by Balam )
The first video shows Edno approaching the two siblings, gives more content of the interaction:
• I love how Edno comes out of the water and the two siblings appear unfazed while he approaches them, jaguars truly are the navy seals of the cat world.
• I don't think Edno had any intentions of mating with the young female, rather he approached them to investigate who they were. We don't know if the two siblings were inside his territory or whether they were close to it. My guess is that Edno wanted to establish himself as dominant over them but at the same time didn't see them as threat, so he wasn't too rough.
• I'm still amazed by the courage of this young female to face Edno the way she did.
(11-06-2020, 06:31 PM)Balam Wrote: The first video shows Edno approaching the two siblings, gives more content of the interaction:
• I love how Edno comes out of the water and the two siblings appear unfazed while he approaches them, jaguars truly are the navy seals of the cat world.
• I don't think Edno had any intentions of mating with the young female, rather he approached them to investigate who they were. We don't know if the two siblings were inside his territory or whether they were close to it. My guess is that Edno wanted to establish himself as dominant over them but at the same time didn't see them as threat, so he wasn't too rough.
• I'm still amazed by the courage of this young female to face Edno the way she did.
Yes Balam I also think Edno's intention was for dominance porposes on the interaction as a warning to and let Daryl and Constantine know who's boss in that area.
He scent marked and walked away like a boss.
But Daryl and Constantine did really good on the interaction.
(11-06-2020, 06:31 PM)Balam Wrote: The first video shows Edno approaching the two siblings, gives more content of the interaction:
• I love how Edno comes out of the water and the two siblings appear unfazed while he approaches them, jaguars truly are the navy seals of the cat world.
• I don't think Edno had any intentions of mating with the young female, rather he approached them to investigate who they were. We don't know if the two siblings were inside his territory or whether they were close to it. My guess is that Edno wanted to establish himself as dominant over them but at the same time didn't see them as threat, so he wasn't too rough.
• I'm still amazed by the courage of this young female to face Edno the way she did.
Yes Balam I also think Edno's intention was for dominance porposes on the interaction as a warning to and let Daryl and Constantine know who's boss in that area.
He scent marked and walked away like a boss.
But Daryl and Constantine did really good on the interaction.
I know we talk about his size all the time but that last video really puts it into perspective, I'm still amazed at his proportions. The only jaguar I have ever seen rivaling him in size is this huge unknown male from Fazenda San Francisco that was seen years ago. Edno might be reaching prehistoric jaguar proportions and I'm not exaggerating. I doubt Balam is larger.
I think the youngsters are just naive, it wasn't a matter of them standing their ground, they just don't know better. Edno warned them then left marking his territory along then way. There was no chasing or retreating, he simply made his presence known and that he's the boss. If the sub adults would of pushed the issue then I'm sure you'd have a dead Jaguar and the other sibling would of ran off.
11-06-2020, 09:38 PM( This post was last modified: 11-06-2020, 09:39 PM by Dark Jaguar )
(11-06-2020, 08:16 PM)Balam Wrote:
(11-06-2020, 07:40 PM)Dark Jaguar Wrote:
(11-06-2020, 06:31 PM)Balam Wrote: The first video shows Edno approaching the two siblings, gives more content of the interaction:
• I love how Edno comes out of the water and the two siblings appear unfazed while he approaches them, jaguars truly are the navy seals of the cat world.
• I don't think Edno had any intentions of mating with the young female, rather he approached them to investigate who they were. We don't know if the two siblings were inside his territory or whether they were close to it. My guess is that Edno wanted to establish himself as dominant over them but at the same time didn't see them as threat, so he wasn't too rough.
• I'm still amazed by the courage of this young female to face Edno the way she did.
Yes Balam I also think Edno's intention was for dominance porposes on the interaction as a warning to and let Daryl and Constantine know who's boss in that area.
He scent marked and walked away like a boss.
But Daryl and Constantine did really good on the interaction.
I know we talk about his size all the time but that last video really puts it into perspective, I'm still amazed at his proportions. The only jaguar I have ever seen rivaling him in size is this huge unknown male from Fazenda San Francisco that was seen years ago. Edno might be reaching prehistoric jaguar proportions and I'm not exaggerating. I doubt Balam is larger.
Size wise Edno is lioness sized to me. I think those Londolozi professional trackers who came to Brazil would say the same as their first reaction seeing this beast in real life just like they did to Fantasma.
just Imagine the width of his pugmark.
The only thing I know for certain is that if one day this animal (Edno) gets captured, researchers better get a 200 kg max. limit weighing machine in order for them not having to estimate his true weight as it happened to Lopez.
But the size of the animal isn't really their main priorities so it could be unlikely.
(11-06-2020, 06:31 PM)Balam Wrote: The first video shows Edno approaching the two siblings, gives more content of the interaction:
• I love how Edno comes out of the water and the two siblings appear unfazed while he approaches them, jaguars truly are the navy seals of the cat world.
• I don't think Edno had any intentions of mating with the young female, rather he approached them to investigate who they were. We don't know if the two siblings were inside his territory or whether they were close to it. My guess is that Edno wanted to establish himself as dominant over them but at the same time didn't see them as threat, so he wasn't too rough.
• I'm still amazed by the courage of this young female to face Edno the way she did.
yup pretty much how it went in my mind..showed who's boss and left like a boss
Nice reading on James Crookes trip to Brazil in 2012 in order to see in person the world's third largest cat, he tells his thoughts and excitement on seeing a wild Jaguar in person for the first time and compares its size with the famous Tsalala Tailess Lioness and Leopards from Londolozi. He also talks about jaguar's territory range and more.
When the opportunity to go to Caiman Ecological Refuge in the Pantanal arose, the first thing that came to mind was that this would mean a chance to see a jaguar. This was right at the top of my bucket list, as it would almost complete my bush experience. My reason for coming to the bush was to see leopards and what better way to round this off than by seeing a jaguar, an animal so similar and yet so different to a leopard?
In a naive way, I assumed that in 7 nights we wouldn’t have any problem finding a jaguar. I realised that it would be more difficult than tracking down a leopard at Londolozi but still thought that it wouldn’t be impossible. This was a great reminder of just how lucky we are at Londolozi to be able to view relaxed leopards so regularly and at such close proximity. Over the years, this has enabled us to gather an enormous amount of data which has, in many instances, been pioneering information regarding leopard behaviour. We tend to forget that this has not always been the case.
Jagtrack2 - A jaguar track, not too different from a female lion track. I would have been ecstatic just to have seen this, proving to us that jaguars do exist.
*This image is copyright of its original author
In the 1970’s, it was incredibly rare to see a leopard at Londolozi. At this time, there was only 1 leopard that was seen regularly and she later became known as the ‘mother’. Many hours were spent by John Varty (JV) and his tracker, Elmon Mhlongo, finding this leopard and spending time with her in order to habituate her to the presence of the game viewers. This was by no means a speedy process and, over the years, as she bore cubs, so they too became relaxed with vehicles. Today we are privileged to view her great granddaughters, the Nottens and Dudley Riverbank females who, themselves, have had many litters, ensuring that this process continues. Being the pioneers of leopard habituation in what has become arguably the best leopard viewing destination in the world, Londolozi would be well suited to using this knowledge to replicate the process with jaguars. This is one of the major links between Caiman Ecological Refuge and Londolozi’s ‘Restoring Eden’ initiative. With their expertise and past experience, Londolozi is assessing the viability of developing a habituation program for the jaguars in the Pantanal.
Soon after arriving at Caiman Ecological Refuge, I realised that my initial assumption was very farfetched as the bush was far thicker than I expected. Just finding a jaguar would be an accomplishment, but if it left the road, following it through the bush would be impossible. My expectations were quickly adjusted and I decided that jaguar tracks would suffice as at least that would be evidence of jaguars being in the area.
The project incorporating the habituation of jaguars is known as the Oncafari project, a play on the taxonomic classification of the jaguar as Panthera onca. The gist of this project is to identify jaguars whose territories don’t extend beyond the boundaries of the 53,000 hectare property, and habituate these animals to game viewing vehicles so that they can be viewed regularly and thus be used to generate income via ecotourism. The thinking behind this is that it would be nonsensical to habituate an animal that crosses out of the conservation area, as a relaxed jaguar is likely to be shot by neighbouring farmers, who still harbour a great deal of animosity towards the jaguar. It would also be a pointless exercise to spend time habituating a jaguar only to have it move off of the property and not be viewed regularly.
Ghost male (Fantasma) briefly lifted his head as we approached. At a glance he looks quite similar to a leopard, but he is enormous. His head is much larger than a leopard’s and he has very large rosettes on his body. A phenomenal animal and one we were so privileged to see.
*This image is copyright of its original author
While in Caiman, we spent a great deal of time with Bernardo Andrade, one of the researchers working on the Oncafari project, hoping to find fresh sign of one of these cats. During the course of our exploring, there was a particularly thick and beautiful area, with a pan right in the middle of it. I remember thinking at the time that this was the type of area that I had always pictured seeing a jaguar in. Bernardo also loved this area and so we called it Berdardo’s road and pan. While driving home on our third night, we couldn’t believe our luck when, what looked to be a female jaguar, ran across the road about 100 metres in front of us. The jaguars here tend to be nervous, so this was about as good a sighting as we expected. Nevertheless, we tried to intercept her and turned down Bernardo’s road. As we rounded one of the first corners, we were greeted with the sight of an enormous male jaguar strolling nonchalantly away from us down the road. Quickly we turned off the vehicle and watched him from a distance, expecting him to be nervous. Contrary to our expectations, he lay down and slept on the side of the road for about an hour and a half, seemingly unfazed by our presence. His behaviour reminded me of the Camp Pan male leopard at Londolozi and I couldn’t believe what I was watching. The expression on Bernardo’s face said it all and he later recounted how this was his best ever jaguar sighting since starting at Caiman Ecological Refuge early in 2012. We would have been ecstatic with the glimpse we had of the female jaguar, but two jaguars in one night was just phenomenal.
Bernardo identified this jaguar as one named ‘Ghost’ due to the fact that he has been captured on camera traps fairly regularly, but had never been seen by someone on a game drive. I couldn’t believe his size and especially the size of his head. I always knew that jaguars were larger than leopards, but Ghost male was about the size of the Tailless Tsalala lioness.
Eventually he decided to get up and continue his territorial patrol. In doing so, he nonchalantly walked past our vehicle and gave us a cursory glance.
*This image is copyright of its original author
Jaguars are the World’s third largest cat (after tigers and lions), with males weighing up to 158 kilograms. Jaguars are estimated to occupy less than 50% of their original range and are listed as near threatened on the IUCN list and as vulnerable in Brazil. It is estimated that in the Pantanal, a male jaguar’s territory is approximately 6,500 ha (16,250 acres) and a female’s 4,500 ha (11,250 acres). In theory, this would mean that 8 males and 11 females could be found in the 53,000 hectares making up the Caiman Ecological Refuge. Based on the profiles at Londolozi, we have 4 territorial males and 8 territorial females in an area of about 10,200 hectares (25,500 acres). This equates to an average territory size of approximately 2,550 and 1,275 hectares respectively. This is likely due to the fact that there has been a focus on leopard conservation at Londolozi since the late 1960s, while in the Pantanal, this is a relatively new focus. There is also a much higher density of prey species at Londolozi.
A jaguar posing for the camera. Who would’ve thought?
*This image is copyright of its original author
Every 20 minutes or so, we would creep a bit closer, trying to see just how comfortable Ghost was with our vehicle. He hardly moved. This was amazing and illustrated to us that the difficulty may be more in locating and following jaguars than the actual habituation process.
A close up of Ghost male’s track.
*This image is copyright of its original author
After about an hour and a half, Ghost decided to get up and continue his territorial patrol. He stood up, gave us a cursory glance, and then continued down the road with a certain swagger. In a similar manner to a leopard, he scent marked against trees and bushes as he went. After a couple of minutes he disappeared into the darkness of the night, but not before he vocalised, allowing us to hear how remarkably different a jaguar’s call is to a leopard’s.
Disappearing into the darkness. Almost as if he was a figment of our imagination!
*This image is copyright of its original author
There was an eerie silence in the vehicle as we all absorbed what had just unfolded before us and watched the Ghost fade into obscurity, uncertain of if and when he would show himself again.
11-09-2020, 10:03 PM( This post was last modified: 11-09-2020, 10:33 PM by Shadow )
(11-06-2020, 07:40 PM)Dark Jaguar Wrote:
(11-06-2020, 06:31 PM)Balam Wrote: The first video shows Edno approaching the two siblings, gives more content of the interaction:
• I love how Edno comes out of the water and the two siblings appear unfazed while he approaches them, jaguars truly are the navy seals of the cat world.
• I don't think Edno had any intentions of mating with the young female, rather he approached them to investigate who they were. We don't know if the two siblings were inside his territory or whether they were close to it. My guess is that Edno wanted to establish himself as dominant over them but at the same time didn't see them as threat, so he wasn't too rough.
• I'm still amazed by the courage of this young female to face Edno the way she did.
Yes Balam I also think Edno's intention was for dominance porposes on the interaction as a warning to and let Daryl and Constantine know who's boss in that area.
He scent marked and walked away like a boss.
But Daryl and Constantine did really good on the interaction.
Nice that finally some footage from the end. Still odd, that no-one can put a bit longer clips, now it´s like a glimpse from here and there. It would be very interesting to see last minute or two unedited footage since it´s clear that someone has this whole interaction filmed. Youngsters did good nevertheless. Then again this again show why it´s always good to see video clips and not take for granted what guides tell. And if no real proof, guides aren´t too reliable sources, when they make big claims with no proof whatsoever, which happens quite often.
Even though it´s now clear, that Edno wasn´t running as guide told, I still wait if one day there is some decent video footage showing more than glimpses from here and there. Even after all seen so far now, this remains an interesting case with some blank spots..
(11-06-2020, 06:31 PM)Balam Wrote: The first video shows Edno approaching the two siblings, gives more content of the interaction:
• I love how Edno comes out of the water and the two siblings appear unfazed while he approaches them, jaguars truly are the navy seals of the cat world.
• I don't think Edno had any intentions of mating with the young female, rather he approached them to investigate who they were. We don't know if the two siblings were inside his territory or whether they were close to it. My guess is that Edno wanted to establish himself as dominant over them but at the same time didn't see them as threat, so he wasn't too rough.
• I'm still amazed by the courage of this young female to face Edno the way she did.
Yes Balam I also think Edno's intention was for dominance porposes on the interaction as a warning to and let Daryl and Constantine know who's boss in that area.
He scent marked and walked away like a boss.
But Daryl and Constantine did really good on the interaction.
Nice that finally some footage from the end. Still odd, that no-one can put a bit longer clips, now it´s like a glimpse from here and there. It would be very interesting to see last minute or two unedited footage since it´s clear that someone has this whole interaction filmed. Youngsters did good nevertheless. Then again this again show why it´s always good to see video clips and not take for granted what guides tell. And if no real proof, guides aren´t too reliable sources, when they make big claims with no proof whatsoever, which happens quite often.
Even though it´s now clear, that Edno wasn´t running as guide told, I still wait if one day there is some decent video footage showing more than glimpses from here and there. Even after all seen so far now, this remains an interesting case with some blank spots..
It's all there, there are small gaps which are from uploading but it's easy enough to put 2 and 2 together.
-Edno swims up
-Female submits then male
-Edno swipes at female
-Edno makes a quick attack on the female then comes back to the male in which he submits
-Edno seems to see no threat, rolls over and rubs his body on the dirt
-Edno walks off marking territory
In regards to guides, you need to take translations with a grain of salt. They may explain things that don't necessarily translate perfectly and answering questions with a sentence or two on IG isn't the same as having a direct conversation and gaining clarity with follow up questions.
11-09-2020, 11:21 PM( This post was last modified: 11-09-2020, 11:27 PM by Shadow )
(11-09-2020, 10:56 PM)Pckts Wrote:
(11-09-2020, 10:03 PM)Shadow Wrote:
(11-06-2020, 07:40 PM)Dark Jaguar Wrote:
(11-06-2020, 06:31 PM)Balam Wrote: The first video shows Edno approaching the two siblings, gives more content of the interaction:
• I love how Edno comes out of the water and the two siblings appear unfazed while he approaches them, jaguars truly are the navy seals of the cat world.
• I don't think Edno had any intentions of mating with the young female, rather he approached them to investigate who they were. We don't know if the two siblings were inside his territory or whether they were close to it. My guess is that Edno wanted to establish himself as dominant over them but at the same time didn't see them as threat, so he wasn't too rough.
• I'm still amazed by the courage of this young female to face Edno the way she did.
Yes Balam I also think Edno's intention was for dominance porposes on the interaction as a warning to and let Daryl and Constantine know who's boss in that area.
He scent marked and walked away like a boss.
But Daryl and Constantine did really good on the interaction.
Nice that finally some footage from the end. Still odd, that no-one can put a bit longer clips, now it´s like a glimpse from here and there. It would be very interesting to see last minute or two unedited footage since it´s clear that someone has this whole interaction filmed. Youngsters did good nevertheless. Then again this again show why it´s always good to see video clips and not take for granted what guides tell. And if no real proof, guides aren´t too reliable sources, when they make big claims with no proof whatsoever, which happens quite often.
Even though it´s now clear, that Edno wasn´t running as guide told, I still wait if one day there is some decent video footage showing more than glimpses from here and there. Even after all seen so far now, this remains an interesting case with some blank spots..
It's all there, there are small gaps which are from uploading but it's easy enough to put 2 and 2 together.
-Edno swims up
-Female submits then male
-Edno swipes at female
-Edno makes a quick attack on the female then comes back to the male in which he submits
-Edno seems to see no threat, rolls over and rubs his body on the dirt
-Edno walks off marking territory
In regards to guides, you need to take translations with a grain of salt. They may explain things that don't necessarily translate perfectly and answering questions with a sentence or two on IG isn't the same as having a direct conversation and gaining clarity with follow up questions.
Nice that it´s all there for you, but I hope to see more to get some more answers, because this is very interesting incident and now shared glimpses give only part of the story and most important parts which I would like to see are missing.
What comes to guides, I always take their stories with grain of salt. Not translations which were in this case accurate. Guide said clearly, that Edno was kicked out/ran away. Nothing wrong in translation which I confirmed from two Brazilian people. Guides sometimes give weights which are very odd when comparing to known ones from scientific sources and so on. Also when people ask clarifications they can give "interesting" answers when comparing to it, what can be seen on video clips. It can be sometimes difficult for them to change their stories when they have already exaggerated something. That´s why I prefer always scientific sources most reliable with actual unedited filmings. Guides know a lot, but how accurate they are when they make claims is something else as this case showed once again at least partially.
But it looks like, that from this case new clips are shared every now and then, maybe soon whole incident can be watched from start to finish.
Jaguars of Brazil - Dynamics,Lifestyle,Datas,Studies,Reports
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