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Jaguar Predation

Ngonya Offline
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(05-03-2023, 06:51 PM)Pckts Wrote:
(05-03-2023, 05:55 PM)Ngonya Wrote:
(05-03-2023, 04:28 AM)Pckts Wrote:
(05-03-2023, 03:21 AM)Ngonya Wrote:
"These two guys are Xando and Bororo, two males we saw in 2019. They are brothers and at the time, the mother had "glued them to run" not long ago. The guides said that it wasn't so common for them to stay together for so long, but to the delight of many tourists and observers, they made a show of appearing.

Among the experts there was a hypothesis that they had stayed together for so long: Xando was a jaguar with certain limitations and walking with his brother helped him to be successful in hunting.
After the criminal fires in the Pantanal in 2020, they were no longer seen together.

Bororo was seen last year disputing territory with another male and has been seen frequently. Xando was seen last year too, but has been less seen by those who monitor the region."


Neither had limitations, I saw them multiple days and they got around just fine. There’s been a few “coalitions” over time but generally it’s young males. Competition is high and they probably had a better shot of being able to stay in the prey rich 3 brothers River as a pair or they could have just enjoyed each others company. Who knows for sure.
ye ik, have already read about other coalitions and its not really 'rare'. But i would believe that one of them (xando and borro) had limitations, the man who reported this had direct contact with them, unlike us.

I had direct contact with them for 3 days straight.

sorry, i really didnt read ur previous message right! Thought u had seen them in video and video only. Thats crazy, it must have been so cool to see xando and borro irl
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United States Pckts Offline
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(05-03-2023, 06:53 PM)Ngonya Wrote:
(05-03-2023, 06:51 PM)Pckts Wrote:
(05-03-2023, 05:55 PM)Ngonya Wrote:
(05-03-2023, 04:28 AM)Pckts Wrote:
(05-03-2023, 03:21 AM)Ngonya Wrote:
"These two guys are Xando and Bororo, two males we saw in 2019. They are brothers and at the time, the mother had "glued them to run" not long ago. The guides said that it wasn't so common for them to stay together for so long, but to the delight of many tourists and observers, they made a show of appearing.

Among the experts there was a hypothesis that they had stayed together for so long: Xando was a jaguar with certain limitations and walking with his brother helped him to be successful in hunting.
After the criminal fires in the Pantanal in 2020, they were no longer seen together.

Bororo was seen last year disputing territory with another male and has been seen frequently. Xando was seen last year too, but has been less seen by those who monitor the region."


Neither had limitations, I saw them multiple days and they got around just fine. There’s been a few “coalitions” over time but generally it’s young males. Competition is high and they probably had a better shot of being able to stay in the prey rich 3 brothers River as a pair or they could have just enjoyed each others company. Who knows for sure.
ye ik, have already read about other coalitions and its not really 'rare'. But i would believe that one of them (xando and borro) had limitations, the man who reported this had direct contact with them, unlike us.

I had direct contact with them for 3 days straight.

sorry, i really didnt read ur previous message right! Thought u had seen them in video and video only. Thats crazy, it must have been so cool to see xando and borro irl

Very cool, it’s one of my favorite experiences for sure.
You can see some shots here if interested 
https://wildfact.com/forum/topic-your-wildlife-experience-in-the-pantanal-brazil?page=3
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Ngonya Offline
Regular Member
***

(05-03-2023, 06:59 PM)Pckts Wrote:
(05-03-2023, 06:53 PM)Ngonya Wrote:
(05-03-2023, 06:51 PM)Pckts Wrote:
(05-03-2023, 05:55 PM)Ngonya Wrote:
(05-03-2023, 04:28 AM)Pckts Wrote:
(05-03-2023, 03:21 AM)Ngonya Wrote:
"These two guys are Xando and Bororo, two males we saw in 2019. They are brothers and at the time, the mother had "glued them to run" not long ago. The guides said that it wasn't so common for them to stay together for so long, but to the delight of many tourists and observers, they made a show of appearing.

Among the experts there was a hypothesis that they had stayed together for so long: Xando was a jaguar with certain limitations and walking with his brother helped him to be successful in hunting.
After the criminal fires in the Pantanal in 2020, they were no longer seen together.

Bororo was seen last year disputing territory with another male and has been seen frequently. Xando was seen last year too, but has been less seen by those who monitor the region."


Neither had limitations, I saw them multiple days and they got around just fine. There’s been a few “coalitions” over time but generally it’s young males. Competition is high and they probably had a better shot of being able to stay in the prey rich 3 brothers River as a pair or they could have just enjoyed each others company. Who knows for sure.
ye ik, have already read about other coalitions and its not really 'rare'. But i would believe that one of them (xando and borro) had limitations, the man who reported this had direct contact with them, unlike us.

I had direct contact with them for 3 days straight.

sorry, i really didnt read ur previous message right! Thought u had seen them in video and video only. Thats crazy, it must have been so cool to see xando and borro irl

Very cool, it’s one of my favorite experiences for sure.
You can see some shots here if interested 
https://wildfact.com/forum/topic-your-wildlife-experience-in-the-pantanal-brazil?page=3
amazing sighting u had there, i dont wanna bother but i wish u could answer me about the male jaguar Marley. I was already searching about him lately but i saw u posted something on him back then. 
You mentioned that Marley was small but still able to beat up larger males, he was small bc he was only around 4 years of age or this was one of his characteristics? Also if u answer  me about it i wish u could tell me if they grow any larger around their 4 years of age, or they are full grown already?
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United States Pckts Offline
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(05-03-2023, 07:04 PM)Ngonya Wrote:
(05-03-2023, 06:59 PM)Pckts Wrote:
(05-03-2023, 06:53 PM)Ngonya Wrote:
(05-03-2023, 06:51 PM)Pckts Wrote:
(05-03-2023, 05:55 PM)Ngonya Wrote:
(05-03-2023, 04:28 AM)Pckts Wrote:
(05-03-2023, 03:21 AM)Ngonya Wrote:
"These two guys are Xando and Bororo, two males we saw in 2019. They are brothers and at the time, the mother had "glued them to run" not long ago. The guides said that it wasn't so common for them to stay together for so long, but to the delight of many tourists and observers, they made a show of appearing.

Among the experts there was a hypothesis that they had stayed together for so long: Xando was a jaguar with certain limitations and walking with his brother helped him to be successful in hunting.
After the criminal fires in the Pantanal in 2020, they were no longer seen together.

Bororo was seen last year disputing territory with another male and has been seen frequently. Xando was seen last year too, but has been less seen by those who monitor the region."


Neither had limitations, I saw them multiple days and they got around just fine. There’s been a few “coalitions” over time but generally it’s young males. Competition is high and they probably had a better shot of being able to stay in the prey rich 3 brothers River as a pair or they could have just enjoyed each others company. Who knows for sure.
ye ik, have already read about other coalitions and its not really 'rare'. But i would believe that one of them (xando and borro) had limitations, the man who reported this had direct contact with them, unlike us.

I had direct contact with them for 3 days straight.

sorry, i really didnt read ur previous message right! Thought u had seen them in video and video only. Thats crazy, it must have been so cool to see xando and borro irl

Very cool, it’s one of my favorite experiences for sure.
You can see some shots here if interested 
https://wildfact.com/forum/topic-your-wildlife-experience-in-the-pantanal-brazil?page=3
amazing sighting u had there, i dont wanna bother but i wish u could answer me about the male jaguar Marley. I was already searching about him lately but i saw u posted something on him back then. 
You mentioned that Marley was small but still able to beat up larger males, he was small bc he was only around 4 years of age or this was one of his characteristics? Also if u answer  me about it i wish u could tell me if they grow any larger around their 4 years of age, or they are full grown already?

He was small probably due to his age and genetics. It’s not like he’s tiny just smaller than most but I’m sure he gained a bit more of size. Jaguars continue to grow up until 8 or so, it’s the same with any big cat. Usually around 4 or so their body dimensions slow down in growth but they’ll continue to put mass on and still grow in frame too just at a much slower pace.
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Ngonya Offline
Regular Member
***

(05-03-2023, 07:19 PM)Pckts Wrote:
(05-03-2023, 07:04 PM)Ngonya Wrote:
(05-03-2023, 06:59 PM)Pckts Wrote:
(05-03-2023, 06:53 PM)Ngonya Wrote:
(05-03-2023, 06:51 PM)Pckts Wrote:
(05-03-2023, 05:55 PM)Ngonya Wrote:
(05-03-2023, 04:28 AM)Pckts Wrote:
(05-03-2023, 03:21 AM)Ngonya Wrote:
"These two guys are Xando and Bororo, two males we saw in 2019. They are brothers and at the time, the mother had "glued them to run" not long ago. The guides said that it wasn't so common for them to stay together for so long, but to the delight of many tourists and observers, they made a show of appearing.

Among the experts there was a hypothesis that they had stayed together for so long: Xando was a jaguar with certain limitations and walking with his brother helped him to be successful in hunting.
After the criminal fires in the Pantanal in 2020, they were no longer seen together.

Bororo was seen last year disputing territory with another male and has been seen frequently. Xando was seen last year too, but has been less seen by those who monitor the region."


Neither had limitations, I saw them multiple days and they got around just fine. There’s been a few “coalitions” over time but generally it’s young males. Competition is high and they probably had a better shot of being able to stay in the prey rich 3 brothers River as a pair or they could have just enjoyed each others company. Who knows for sure.
ye ik, have already read about other coalitions and its not really 'rare'. But i would believe that one of them (xando and borro) had limitations, the man who reported this had direct contact with them, unlike us.

I had direct contact with them for 3 days straight.

sorry, i really didnt read ur previous message right! Thought u had seen them in video and video only. Thats crazy, it must have been so cool to see xando and borro irl

Very cool, it’s one of my favorite experiences for sure.
You can see some shots here if interested 
https://wildfact.com/forum/topic-your-wildlife-experience-in-the-pantanal-brazil?page=3
amazing sighting u had there, i dont wanna bother but i wish u could answer me about the male jaguar Marley. I was already searching about him lately but i saw u posted something on him back then. 
You mentioned that Marley was small but still able to beat up larger males, he was small bc he was only around 4 years of age or this was one of his characteristics? Also if u answer  me about it i wish u could tell me if they grow any larger around their 4 years of age, or they are full grown already?

He was small probably due to his age and genetics. It’s not like he’s tiny just smaller than most but I’m sure he gained a bit more of size. Jaguars continue to grow up until 8 or so, it’s the same with any big cat. Usually around 4 or so their body dimensions slow down in growth but they’ll continue to put mass on and still grow in frame too just at a much slower pace.
thats amazing, i really didnt know about it thought. Is Marley still alive?
Reply

United States Pckts Offline
Bigcat Enthusiast
******

(05-03-2023, 07:29 PM)Ngonya Wrote:
(05-03-2023, 07:19 PM)Pckts Wrote:
(05-03-2023, 07:04 PM)Ngonya Wrote:
(05-03-2023, 06:59 PM)Pckts Wrote:
(05-03-2023, 06:53 PM)Ngonya Wrote:
(05-03-2023, 06:51 PM)Pckts Wrote:
(05-03-2023, 05:55 PM)Ngonya Wrote:
(05-03-2023, 04:28 AM)Pckts Wrote:
(05-03-2023, 03:21 AM)Ngonya Wrote:
"These two guys are Xando and Bororo, two males we saw in 2019. They are brothers and at the time, the mother had "glued them to run" not long ago. The guides said that it wasn't so common for them to stay together for so long, but to the delight of many tourists and observers, they made a show of appearing.

Among the experts there was a hypothesis that they had stayed together for so long: Xando was a jaguar with certain limitations and walking with his brother helped him to be successful in hunting.
After the criminal fires in the Pantanal in 2020, they were no longer seen together.

Bororo was seen last year disputing territory with another male and has been seen frequently. Xando was seen last year too, but has been less seen by those who monitor the region."


Neither had limitations, I saw them multiple days and they got around just fine. There’s been a few “coalitions” over time but generally it’s young males. Competition is high and they probably had a better shot of being able to stay in the prey rich 3 brothers River as a pair or they could have just enjoyed each others company. Who knows for sure.
ye ik, have already read about other coalitions and its not really 'rare'. But i would believe that one of them (xando and borro) had limitations, the man who reported this had direct contact with them, unlike us.

I had direct contact with them for 3 days straight.

sorry, i really didnt read ur previous message right! Thought u had seen them in video and video only. Thats crazy, it must have been so cool to see xando and borro irl

Very cool, it’s one of my favorite experiences for sure.
You can see some shots here if interested 
https://wildfact.com/forum/topic-your-wildlife-experience-in-the-pantanal-brazil?page=3
amazing sighting u had there, i dont wanna bother but i wish u could answer me about the male jaguar Marley. I was already searching about him lately but i saw u posted something on him back then. 
You mentioned that Marley was small but still able to beat up larger males, he was small bc he was only around 4 years of age or this was one of his characteristics? Also if u answer  me about it i wish u could tell me if they grow any larger around their 4 years of age, or they are full grown already?

He was small probably due to his age and genetics. It’s not like he’s tiny just smaller than most but I’m sure he gained a bit more of size. Jaguars continue to grow up until 8 or so, it’s the same with any big cat. Usually around 4 or so their body dimensions slow down in growth but they’ll continue to put mass on and still grow in frame too just at a much slower pace.
thats amazing, i really didnt know about it thought. Is Marley still alive?

I’m sure, I don’t keep up on it as much as I used to but it’d be big news if he died. He could possibly have been kicked out of that area but the Pantanal is gigantic so he could have gone off somewhere else.
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Bitishannah Offline
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https://www.reddit.com/r/Jaguarland/comm...are_button

Looks like marine dolphins are on the list!.
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Canada Balam Offline
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Nusa with a huge zebu kill


*This image is copyright of its original author

By td_1969
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Virgin Islands, U.S. Rage2277 Offline
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( This post was last modified: 12-01-2023, 10:50 PM by Rage2277 )




finally footage of jaguar hunting deer
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Jafar Offline
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first video attack of a jaguar attacking a black caiman!!!
And to improve, it's still in beautiful waters!



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Ngonya Offline
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( This post was last modified: 02-09-2024, 06:11 AM by Ngonya )

Original video from previous post.
A male jaguar attempts predation on Black Caiman at Rio Itapara, down Rio Branco, Roraima. 


Unrelated to the video:
The remains of a 'small' Black Caiman killed by a jaguar.
This caiman is estimated to be 250cm
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Jafar Offline
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(02-09-2024, 06:10 AM)Ngonya Wrote: Original video from previous post.
A male jaguar attempts predation on Black Caiman at Rio Itapara, down Rio Branco, Roraima. 


Unrelated to the video:
The remains of a 'small' Black Caiman killed by a jaguar.
This caiman is estimated to be 250cm

thanks for the great news!
I believe that the first alligator must be bigger than the dead one in the photo, probably around 3 meters.

Things to consider in this video are:

1. the fight probably lasted more than just 2 minutes, the Jaguar had already dominated the alligator to take him.

2. before the Jaguar releases the alligator, the boat makes a very irritating noise and so, the Jaguar releases the alligator, and we can see that this was the reason she released him, since right when she releases the alligator, she looks straight to the boat, so the alligator takes advantage and defends itself and scares away the Jaguar, if it weren't for that, this alligator would have the same fate as the Alligator in the photo.
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India Mishedic Offline
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(02-09-2024, 07:21 AM)Jafar Wrote:
(02-09-2024, 06:10 AM)Ngonya Wrote: Original video from previous post.
A male jaguar attempts predation on Black Caiman at Rio Itapara, down Rio Branco, Roraima. 


Unrelated to the video here:
The remains of a 'small' Black Caiman killed by a jaguar.
This caiman is estimated to be 250cm

thanks for the great news!
I believe that the first alligator must be bigger than the dead one in the photo, probably around 3 meters.

Things to consider in this video are:

1. the fight probably lasted more than just 2 minutes, the Jaguar had already dominated the alligator to take him.

2. before the Jaguar releases the alligator, the boat makes a very irritating noise and so, the Jaguar releases the alligator, and we can see that this was the reason she released him, since right when she releases the alligator, she looks straight to the boat, so the alligator takes advantage and defends itself and scares away the Jaguar, if it weren't for that, this alligator would have the same fate as the Alligator in the photo.
Yes indeed, context plays an important role when analysing the situation. Considering that the fight lasted for more than 2 minutes, and taking into account the annoying noise from the boat, which could have influenced the jaguar's behaviour, it becomes clear why the alligator was able to defend itself and scare the predator away.
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Ngonya Offline
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( This post was last modified: 02-10-2024, 01:57 AM by Ngonya )

(02-09-2024, 07:21 AM)Jafar Wrote: probably around 3 meters.
3 meters is too big for such a caiman. Skull morphology resembles more of a young black caiman
We can't even get along to its size by simple video, in which various tricks with unintentional angles can trick our perception.
in addition to the fact that if it was an adult male measuring 3 meters, it would be unlikely that it would be easily dominated, regardless of what is not possible to see in the video.

The proof that video angles cant be taken much into account are the footage of jaguars hunting Yacares in Pantanal. They look quite big even thought rarely are over 2,5 meters. Have seen footage of those smaller cousins of the caiman looking as long in width in other videos/photos
example:

*This image is copyright of its original author


(02-09-2024, 07:21 AM)Jafar Wrote: before the Jaguar releases the alligator, the boat makes a very irritating noise and so, the Jaguar releases the alligator, and we can see that this was the reason she released him, since right when she releases the alligator, she looks straight to the boat, so the alligator takes advantage and defends itself and scares away the Jaguar, if it weren't for that, this alligator would have the same fate as the Alligator in the photo.
Well thats not really a great argument for the jag to ungrab the Caimans throat. 
The boat was making noise the whole time and that didnt stop the jaguar from doing its thing.
(its a male jaguar, so idk why ur using 'she'. U can see its testicles when its grabbing the caiman to surface) 

Its pretty common for them to ungrab the caimans after a short struggle in water, as u said there probably was some bit of a fight before they started recording it. It was in a pretty bad position bringing the caiman to surface, so not only the struggle to finish its prey but also to bring to the surface

It is possible to see that in that brief moment when the jaguar releases the Black, it immediately reacts and enters a good defensive position (lower and more vulnerable part facing the water and the jaws that can do damage aimed at the danger), which would make it difficult for the jaguar to dominate the animal once again.
However, i believe that a 'second round' could easily have occurred and the jaguar easily won, but perhaps when he pays attention to the humans without focusing on the caiman, he runs away.
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Jafar Offline
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(02-10-2024, 01:52 AM)Ngonya Wrote:
(02-09-2024, 07:21 AM)Jafar Wrote: probably around 3 meters.
3 meters is too big for such a caiman. Skull morphology resembles more of a young black caiman
We can't even get along to its size by simple video, in which various tricks with unintentional angles can trick our perception.
in addition to the fact that if it was an adult male measuring 3 meters, it would be unlikely that it would be easily dominated, regardless of what is not possible to see in the video.

The proof that video angles cant be taken much into account are the footage of jaguars hunting Yacares in Pantanal. They look quite big even thought rarely are over 2,5 meters. Have seen footage of those smaller cousins of the caiman looking as long in width in other videos/photos
example:

*This image is copyright of its original author


(02-09-2024, 07:21 AM)Jafar Wrote: before the Jaguar releases the alligator, the boat makes a very irritating noise and so, the Jaguar releases the alligator, and we can see that this was the reason she released him, since right when she releases the alligator, she looks straight to the boat, so the alligator takes advantage and defends itself and scares away the Jaguar, if it weren't for that, this alligator would have the same fate as the Alligator in the photo.
Well thats not really a great argument for the jag to ungrab the Caimans throat. 
The boat was making noise the whole time and that didnt stop the jaguar from doing its thing.
(its a male jaguar, so idk why ur using 'she'. U can see its testicles when its grabbing the caiman to surface) 

Its pretty common for them to ungrab the caimans after a short struggle in water, as u said there probably was some bit of a fight before they started recording it. It was in a pretty bad position bringing the caiman to surface, so not only the struggle to finish its prey but also to bring to the surface

It is possible to see that in that brief moment when the jaguar releases the Black, it immediately reacts and enters a good defensive position (lower and more vulnerable part facing the water and the jaws that can do damage aimed at the danger), which would make it difficult for the jaguar to dominate the animal once again.
However, i believe that a 'second round' could easily have occurred and the jaguar easily won, but perhaps when he pays attention to the humans without focusing on the caiman, he runs away.

It's not an exaggeration to say that that alligator would be 10 feet long.
the record came from Roraima, where there are large Amazonian jaguars.
This Jaguar would weigh more than 80 kg.
a Jaguar of this size would have a body length of 1.50 meters or more most of the time.

the alligator was at least 2x bigger.

like in this clip here:
*This image is copyright of its original author
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